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Joe Horn - Neighborhood Hero Or Murderer?

Hits: 9881 | Rating: (3.3) | Category: Misc. | Added by: kitteh9lives
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
MrLogic
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 106 Posts
Tuesday, September 04, 2012 9:02:17 AM
If everyone treated robberies like this, we would have no robberies. Think about it.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 8:49:45 AM
AGit-"SilverThread's link it states that both were shot in the back"

Ah, okay, you were going on the detective's statement (he also stated one of the criminals ran towards Joe).

I was going on the Coroner's report, where the ballistics were indeterminant.

Plus, they were both shot IN HIS FRONT YARD.

AGit-"I find being shot to death totally unjustified"

A Harris County grand jury concluding the act was a justifiable use of deadly force and not murder. That's it. End of story. It was justified.

Sorry, but possible death is an occupational hazard when you break into homes. They knew that in Texas they could legally be shot for doing so. Obviously they thought their lives were worth less than a flatscreen t.v. Who am I to argue?

Kalimata
Male, 30-39, Canada
 660 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 8:05:59 AM
Hmmm, iffy imho. He technically acted within the boundaries of the law. I think he acted in what he perceived to be the "spirit of the law". He also believed he was doing the right thing in his eyes.

He escalated the situation by intervening, with a firearm, placing himself into a position to shoot two men that did not exist before he exited his house. He was in no physical danger, and the robbery had been "completed" (for lack of a better term).

It wasn't me, I wasn't there, so my opinion is offered with those two things in my mind. IMHO, not murder, but a good case for manslaughter.


AGit
Male, 30-39, Europe
 953 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 7:08:51 AM
MeGrendel, on SilverThread's link it states that both were shot in the back, that's the only source I can give you, if there is any other, I'm more than willing to take a look.
I do care they broke the law, but I find being shot to death totally unjustified.
It's nice to know that rational people are thankful, I aim to please (but not at the back:)

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 6:51:14 AM
AGit-"guilt was established not by a trial but by a lone man based on his own experience"

The criminals' guilt has never been in question. They were caught in the act. They were witnessed to have broken into a house, and has stolen property from that house on their person.

Funny how you're upset that their supposed 'rights' were violated, and yet you have no problem with THEM breaking the law.

AGit-"Both men were shot in the back"

Please cite: According to the coroner's report that was indeterminant.

AGit-"voluntary manslaughter at the least."

Sorry, the facts do not bear that out. It's been 4 years and he's never been charged. Rightly so.

AGit-"Good job I'm not American"

Rational people across the U.S. are thankful for that fact.

barberthe
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 103 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 5:09:28 AM
AGit, the one time I have had to talk with a police dispatcher while holding a gun, all they did was ask if I was armed and if I knew how to use it. I was babysitting the grocery store I work at during the big power outage in April and someone was trying to break in. Sadly, the perpetrator ran off before the officers arrived. However, when the officers got there, they flat-out told me to shoot the person if they came back. Quote: "If they come back, blast their ass"

Granted, I do live in Alabama, but it wouldn't surprise me if Texans had similar stories.

AGit
Male, 30-39, Europe
 953 Posts
Monday, December 12, 2011 1:28:51 AM
MeGrendel, thanks for answering, quite useful. I was not aware that the person responding to the call was not a police officer, although I'm curious now to know what would have happened if a policeman answered and said the same thing. Would it be different?
And you say sanctity of innocent life, fine. But in this case, guilt was established not by a trial but by a lone man based on his own experience, and I don't think that's enough to establish guilt. Both men were shot in the back, I don't really believe that they were threatening his life with their arses, so I have to go for voluntary manslaughter at the least. Good job I'm not American and part of the grand jury, huh?

Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
 3672 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:52:30 PM
MeGrendel - I was essentially agreeing with you. Thanks for the cameo though.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:22:34 PM
AGit-" All human life is sacred"

Nope, not really. Some humans have forfeited their rights.

AGit-"even though a police officer tells you not to leave your house"

A police officer didn't. A 911 operator is not an officer of the law.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:22:17 PM
AGit-"Could you elaborate?"

Would be glad to. Let me preface it by saying that I, personally, am against abortion. BUT, my convictions are not to the point where I'm willing to make that decision for somene else. So I have no problem with the laws as they stand (except I would like it that no taxpayer money were used to fund abortions).

It's actually very simple and I can explain my belief with the addition of one, single word.

You say 'sanctity of life'. I say 'sanctity of INNOCENT life'. I believe that life starts at conception, and that the child should have a chance. BUT, it's entirely possible that he will grow up to be a criminal, in which case he loses some of his right, up to and including the right to live.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:12:43 PM
Suicism-"what bothers him about this event is that the 'criminal' was deprived the opportunity to face trial"

That sometimes happens when you're a criminal. It's the utmost in hypocrisy when a criminal, who intentionally breaks the law, all of a sudden starts crying that his right have been violated and that OTHERS should not follow the Law where it concerns the criminal.

Angilion-"So they should consider the above scenario to be a good thing."

But they don't because you scnario was based on ignorance.

Angilion-"I like a society ruled by laws"

Then get the criminals to obey the law and we wouldn't have this problem. But you want to complain about a guy who DID NOT break the law just because you don't like the outcome.

SilverThread
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3368 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 6:45:04 PM
911 Operators are not police officers. This man acted fully within the bounds of the law and has been widely lauded as a hero by his neighbors and citizens of the United States.

He was found Not Guilty of any wrong doing by a grand jury, which is proof that our legal system does in fact work.

The men he killed were victims of their own very bad decision making.

Criminals *should* be afraid to break the law and to think otherwise speaks to a questionable base of morality. If the Law itself seems flawed to the Majority of a society, then it should be changed, if not, then in order to maintain social cohesion, those that are dissident would do well to retrain their point of view.

AGit
Male, 30-39, Europe
 953 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:36:00 PM
MeGrendel "Abortion and Capital Punishment are two totally different situations"
Could you elaborate? Perhaps it's my poor understanding, but I'd say that those against abortion are so due to sanctity of life. All human life is sacred and, if mixed with religion, any act redeemable through true repentance. Execution skips both.
As practically all have skiped the obeying a police officer bit I mentioned, except barberthe. And even then with quite poor results "as long as doing so does not infringe on your rights". Then again, in the United States there may be a right that allows you to shoot at people that are stealing your neighbour even though a police officer tells you not to leave your house that I'm not aware of, as well may be the case...

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11515 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:22:09 PM
I think what bothers him about this event is that the 'criminal' was deprived the opportunity to face trial by the very society whose job it is to determine what his debt should be.


That's part of it, but my main concern is the effect on society. I'm not very bothered about what happens to burglars, but I am very bothered about what happens to society because that affects me.

I like a society ruled by laws and a criminal justice system. It's not perfect, but it's the least bad system anyone has come up with so far.

Going out hunting criminals with the explicitly stated intention of killing them goes against that. It's fine for a plot in a film, not so much in reality.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11515 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 4:16:04 PM
No one answered because the scenario you put forth is so far out there it bears no resemblence to what actually happened.


Since I never claimed it did, how is that of any relevance?

As I said before:

After all, there are quite a few people here arguing that killing burglars is a good thing regardless of circumstances because it improves society. So they should consider the above scenario to be a good thing.

Bountykat
Female, 18-29, Southern US
 399 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 3:03:36 PM
I live in Texas, my house just got robbed. I wish my neighbors had shot them in the drating face. Or shot them multiple times in other spots to make them suffer before they killed them. Disgusting pieces of poo, to make a living by stealing from people who actually work hard. This guy did the world a favor. I wouldn't think twice about tearing a gigantic hole through these men, or the men who burglarized our house, with a big ol' shotgun. And I'd feel absolutely wonderful while watching them bleed to death. True story.

Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
 3672 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 12:08:18 PM
MeGrendel, I understand the concept of justice that Angilion was trying to illustrate, but here's the fundamental problem - as you pointed out, yes at that point they would have paid their debt to society, so additional punitive punishment of that nature would be considered murder. I think what bothers him about this event is that the 'criminal' was deprived the opportunity to face trial by the very society whose job it is to determine what his debt should be. The irony of course is that had Joe let these two burglars go, they probably would have gotten away and never had to face any form of justice. Thus, I default to my original contention.

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4655 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 9:06:30 AM
Angilion-"Nobody answer before"

No one answered because the scenario you put forth is so far out there it bears no resemblence to what actually happened. (BTW, the 'victim' was not burglaring a house, the 'criminal' was. The 'victim' was the person who's house was being burglered.)

But, in answer to your asanine scenario: IF there were caught, and served their time, then technically they have served their debt to society.

When they got out, they could have been upstanding citizens, or trash. Their choice.

If someone decided to 'track them down and kill them', then that person would be guilty of murder. That fact has no bearing on the fact that they were burglers, and definitly no bearing that they were killed by a law abiding citizen in the commision of a felony.

Any more dumb questions?

Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
 3672 Posts
Sunday, December 11, 2011 1:54:21 AM
Awwww - how sweet! The bad man knocked up a naive female! That makes him a family man.. just like Goebbels. Maybe there'd be less attempts at burglary if there were more outcomes like this.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11515 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 10:53:11 PM
Nobody answer before, so I'll ask again. Have a go if you can:

The fact that the victim was burgling a house should be relevant to sentencing, but not to conviction.

To all those who think it's reasonable force, try this scenario:

A burglar is caught and convicted after a fair trial. The homeowner had cameras in their house, the whole thing was on video. Absolutely definitely guilty. They go to jail.

When they get out some years later, someone with a yearning to kill someone tracks them down and kills them.

Do you think that's a good thing? If not, why not?



Serious question. After all, there are quite a few people here arguing that killing burglars is a good thing regardless of circumstances because it improves society. So they should consider the above scenario to be a good thing.

Maybe a reward for their severed heads, like there used to be?

PacoP42
Male, 13-17, Western US
 1081 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 9:47:03 PM
i'm just glad he wasn't killed. there wouldn't be a news story here if he was

SilverThread
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3368 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:46:28 PM
If an immune response is triggered by a cancerous cell within a body resulting in the destruction of that cell for the preservation of the organism as a whole how is this possibly a bad thing?

Society as a whole is a dynamic living organism composed of myriad smaller organisms that must function in symbiosis for the well being of the whole.

When that one cell is allowed to metastasize it can afflict myriad other cells and propagate on its own creating a much greater threat and ultimately disable or completely destroy the original construct.

Ask yourself this, if everyone within a society operated on the guiding principals of the two men that were killed in this story, what would that society look like and how would it function?

Now contrast that answer using Joe Horn as the model and contrast the answers, then ask yourself which society you believe you would prefer to live in.

SilverThread
Male, 30-39, Western US
 3368 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:30:35 PM
Effing, Hero, the house next door is for sale, I would be happy to see him move in.

Link_Hiei
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 5190 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 6:10:27 PM
Good Job. Glad he did it.

rayc
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2 Posts
Saturday, December 10, 2011 5:41:31 PM
only wish we could do that over here in the UK

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