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 Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 9559 Posts
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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:57:38 PM
Life has meaning and content and we have this internal urge to experience this life to the fullest, yet agreeing that consciousness inevitably ceases to exist at death, makes this statement fallible, yet clearly it is not.
It's incorrect on a large enough scale, but it's perceived to be correct on an individual scale and it's that perception that matters.
To put it another way, my life has meaning and content to me because I think it does. On a global scale, or on a national scale, or on any scale larger than the relatively tiny number of people I know, my life is meaningless.
For example, it's almost certain that someone died in Carmona(a small town in Spain that I picked at random) this week. How did that affect you? A person you'd never heard of dying quietly in a town you never knew existed. Them and millions of others people you've never heard of dying in places you never knew existed. With no effect on you. |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:50:03 PM
So in conclusion, as you agree that human beings are just waiting to cease existing and the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false, why is there this biological urge to survive and have offspring?
No reason. You're presuming that there is a reason, which requires a god or gods creating everything, with a plan. You can't logically use a conclusion as supporting argument for itself.
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itslukey
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 8:46:35 PM
He is totally wrong!
Satan said Job only served God because he blessed him, God said that is not true Job served God because he wanted to not cause of "benefits". Satan tested Job not God. He.killed his family, home, livestock, and gave him leprosy.
Even his wife said "curse God and die"! But he didn't.
And after God gave Job even more children and more livestock than he had before.
It was a test of human faith and endurance not a cruel joke by God. |
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uptheante
Male, 30-39, Europe
11 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 6:46:43 PM
@Angilion
So in conclusion, as you agree that human beings are just waiting to cease existing and the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false, why is there this biological urge to survive and have offspring?
Life has meaning and content and we have this internal urge to experience this life to the fullest, yet agreeing that consciousness inevitably ceases to exist at death, makes this statement fallible, yet clearly it is not. |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:31:55 PM
To clarify:
Person who is living:
If I am remembered after my death, I won't truly die. Not really.
If I know who my ancestors were, then they're sort of still alive in some way and that proves that it can be done, so my descendents might do the same thing for me.
It's nonsense when it's written down and people don't think it that clearly, but it's there. You've probably heard talk about people living in other people's memories. |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:26:38 PM
So what is that logic?
It isn't logical. Logic and reason can explain why people do it, but it isn't itself logical.
It's an attempt to have some form of immortality.
Your counter-argument is excellent. It's refreshing to see a theist who actually thinks.
You can make the distinction that while human being cannot have a present and a future if they do not exist, they somehow can have a past.
You're right - they don't have a past. But other people who still exist have a perception of their past. Fake immortality is reassuring to many people. |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:16:59 PM
"True, but also irrelevant. Procreation is a biological urge - logic and reason are irrelevant to it."
Yet you say the 'reason' for a biological urge is for preocreation!
No, I don't. But I applaud the accuracy and understanding you show by putting marking the word that way, i.e. as not actually being a reason.
therefore, all this urge is accomplishing, is to create human beings waiting their turn to cease existing.
Yes.
If each and every human being ceases to be in the end, then the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false.
Yes.
Scary idea, isn't it? |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 5:13:13 PM
The moment after the total destruction of humankind there is no humankind left to be affected. Indeed, there is no humankind around that is conscious of the fact that the comet struck the earth.
Yes. And?
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uptheante
Male, 30-39, Europe
11 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:04:11 PM
@angilion
"Logic and reason does explain why people often want to do things that will result in them being remembered after they die, though. It also explains tombs, gravestones and genealogy, for the same reason."
So what is that logic? You can make the distinction that while human being cannot have a present and a future if they do not exist, they somehow can have a past. It is clear that the present and future of this person is bound to the existence of this person, but so to is the person's past. It is a misconception to equate the fact that there is a "history" of human beings that is set in the "past", with the statement that a human being that no longer exists has a "past". We can say that the being existed over a finite period that is apparent to those who currently exist, or that there is a “history” set in the past that is the sum of all lifetimes. But a person who no longer exists has no “past” |
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uptheante
Male, 30-39, Europe
11 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:03:41 PM
@angilion
"Which doesn't stop them existing."
But you cease to be, so having them continue existing is of no consequence to you.
"True, but also irrelevant. Procreation is a biological urge - logic and reason are irrelevant to it."
Yet you say the 'reason' for a biological urge is for preocreation! therefore, all this urge is accomplishing, is to create human beings waiting their turn to cease existing. If each and every human being ceases to be in the end, then the feeling of continuity that pervades the human race is false.
Well that is if you believe life is destroyed after physical death. |
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uptheante
Male, 30-39, Europe
11 Posts
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Tuesday, November 22, 2011 4:02:25 PM
@angilion
[i]I counter that with the argument that it is a necessary part of intelligence, which has huge benefits to our survival as a species."[/i]
Let us assume, for example, that a comet hits the Earth and all life is annihilated. It is very hard to accept, but if consciousness is nothing more than a physical phenomena, if there is no non-physical life after death, the most logical conclusion is that the complete annihilation of humankind is of absolutely no consequence to humankind. The moment after the total destruction of humankind there is no humankind left to be affected. Indeed, there is no humankind around that is conscious of the fact that the comet struck the earth. |
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 elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
2324 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 9:50:36 PM
No Talco, it isn't the same thing at all. |
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Talcho
Male, 18-29, Western US
21 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 8:32:57 PM
Elkingo the point of the comparison was not to dismiss the "lesson" of Job but to show how when given two similar examples a religiously minded person will defend the morals of the bible vs any other despite the events being the same.
If I killed your mother I would be monster, if God killed your mother he is trying to teach you something, and that's ok. |
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Justahuman
Male, 18-29, Western US
109 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 7:36:24 PM
Btw....trying to prove god doesn't exist using the old testament=Weaksauce oldest trick in the book |
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Justahuman
Male, 18-29, Western US
109 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 7:33:59 PM
This old man is poison.Read the bible......Job was wrecked by satan not God.God was testing the faith of one of his most righteous followers.The passage ends with Job 1:20-21
At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship 21 and said:
“Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
and naked I will depart.[c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised.â€
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 SarahofBorg
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
3529 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 7:02:53 PM
God makes people suffer everyday, and everyone blames the devil for it. Last I checked, God made the Devil and he's doing only what God wants after all. God is infallible and would not create evil if it had no purpose, because that would be evil of God to do. Causing pointless suffering is immoral, but it's OK because it's what God wants. It's the same reason terrorists murder people: because they think that's what God wants and if God wants it that means it's OK. |
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elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
2324 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 6:26:00 PM
allowed it to happen.) -- Dunno why that part got cut off.. it had me at 880ish characters. |
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elkingo
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
2324 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 6:24:25 PM
@ticketfan "So then, you agree that God did an amoral thing when he did all that stuff to Job?"
Here goes, although, anti-theists will not accept this reasoning.
Job never disobeyed God. He remained faithful. You see, to a believer of God, we do not question God's actions because he is acting in our best interest. Life, to a believer is meaningless. In other words, when someone dies, our grief is based more on our attachment to that person, that our "feeling sorry" that they died. Job's family went to be with the Lord. Job never once was upset that he was left alone, and he followed God's judgement, morality, leadership, and wisdom -- Job had faith.
God rewarded that faith in the end, by blessing Job with more than he ever had before. After Job left this life he went to be with 3x the size of the family he had before God and Satan intervened. (Re-read the book of Job -- God didn't "smite" Job's family; rather He allowed it to h |
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Boredhero78
Male, 18-29, Southern US
108 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 4:47:35 PM
Markust123
"but I am really baffled by people like Boredhero78 who think morals only come from religion."
At what point did I say morals only come from religion? I was making a point about the people whose morals DO come from religion. You can't possibly believe that the sudden loss of those morals won't spike crime to its all time record.
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 LastJuggalo
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
214 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 3:59:40 PM
Why cant religion be personal and private. Like your favorite color dildo. I in fact would rather know about your favorite sexual position than what ancient, archaic ritual you participate in December. |
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LordJim
Male, 50-59, Europe
2422 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 2:09:44 PM
'You guys are hilarious, almost all of our morals came from the Bible. Yes, we have changed them over time, but still, that is where they originated.'
No, mostly we evolved them. Otherwise the species would never have made it to the bronze age.
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LordJim
Male, 50-59, Europe
2422 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 1:55:44 PM
<i>Making fun of someone makes you a bully</i>
Making fun of someone <i>weaker</i> than you makes you a bully. In most places religious folks still have the whip hand.
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 ticketfan
Male, 40-49, Southern US
29 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 1:14:53 PM
@elkingo "Because, the truth is, there is never a justifiable cause for hurting someone."
So then, you agree that God did an amoral thing when he did all that stuff to Job? |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 10:42:18 AM
God is held to a much lower standard of morality than even the worst criminals on earth.
And behaves worse than them. The most chilling portrayal of a violent, megalomanical, sociopathic gang leader is just a faint shadow of the god depicted in the Abrahamic religions. |
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Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
9559 Posts
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Monday, November 21, 2011 10:37:12 AM
You guys are hilarious, almost all of our morals came from the Bible. Yes, we have changed them over time, but still, that is where they originated.
I'd like to see you explain how that applies to the morals we have in common with societies that aren't Christian or Jewish, including those that existed before Christianity existed and were completely uninfluenced by Judaism. Ancient Rome would be a good example, as quite a lot is known about it.
Rape, slavery, torture and murder are all portrayed as being moral acts in your bible. Do you regard those things as being morally good? If not, why not?
The only "moral" things I can think of that came from Judaism/Christianity are killing people for doing any work on a particular day of the week and killing people for having homosexual sex. Neither of which I regard as being morally good. Quite the opposite. |
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