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If Christians Advertised The Bible Truthfully [Pic

Hits: 23048 | Rating: (2.8) | Category: Weird | Added by: lostinkorea
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:58:42 PM
"And I'm sure you can understand their confusion, given the contradictions and errors scattered throughout."
Regardless, it doesn't give them the right to judge or persecute.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Thursday, October 20, 2011 5:55:33 PM
"And they have passages from the Qur'an..."
Maybe, but we're not discussing them. We're discussing the Bible and the message contained therein.

""Murderer" is a label we apply to a person after they have committed that act."
Yes. I understand that. My examples pointed to people we would label as such and their ability to not repeat the offense.

"If you accept Bible passages as evidence in favour of the existence of God,"
I'm not speaking of the existence of God. I'm speaking of my knowledge of the message of the bible.

"So glad I gave up on religion."
I know, right? People suck.



Link_Hiei
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 5187 Posts
Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:40:52 AM
So glad I gave up on religion.

almightybob1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 4278 Posts
Thursday, October 20, 2011 9:54:28 AM
If you discount their holy books as not being valid evidence, then we must discount the Bible too, as it is just another holy book to the independent observer.

If you accept Bible passages as evidence in favour of the existence of God, you must equally accept passages from other texts as evidence of that particular deity or deities too. Otherwise it's just special pleading in favour of the book of your choice, and again the rest of the billion can make the same extremely weak case for their own idea.

I don't claim to be a Christian. I've never even claimed God Exists in the course of this discussion. All I claim is that I know what the message of the Christian Bible is, and that a lot of Christians don't.

My apologies then.
And I'm sure you can understand their confusion, given the contradictions and errors scattered throughout.

almightybob1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 4278 Posts
Thursday, October 20, 2011 9:44:16 AM
Can a murderer decide not to murder? Probably. Can an adulterer decide not to...adulter? Probably as well. Then a homosexual can probably decide not to practice homosexuality (Yet still be a homosexual, just non-practicing) to honor the deity (s)he has decided to love.

"Murderer" is a label we apply to a person after they have committed that act. You are not a murderer until you murder someone. Similarly you are not an adulterer until you commit adultery. (Unless you ascribe to the idea of thoughtcrime of course.)

Being a homosexual or a heterosexual is about what you FEEL, not what you DO. I was straight long (, long, LONG) before I actually had sex for the first time.

Yes I do. Verses from The Bible. Verses that contradict their messages.

And they have passages from the Qur'an or the Tanakh or the Book of Mormon or Dianetics or the Book of Shadows or even just different parts of the Bible that support their message.

davymid
Male, 30-39, Europe
 11783 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:33:43 PM
Not getting into the debate this time around *takes off user hat, puts on moderator hat*, but holy crap, after almost a week this one is still smouldering... well I for one applaud that (and yes, there are those of us still reading). Interesting debates like this are the reason I love IAB. Carry on!

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:00:50 PM
the message of the Christian Bible is, and that a lot of Christians don't.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:00:07 PM
"You cannot seriously cite the existence of the Christian bible as evidence..."
Nope, I seriously can't, which is why I didn't. It exists, so I get it? No, I read it, so I get it. I cite the verses inside. I can read them. I know what they say and mean based on my understanding of the English language.

"Finally, if you're reading it in English then you are reading an interpretation"
Ok, then I know the real message of the Bible as presented in english. The one I read. Indeed, if I cannot read the language it was translated from, it is all I have to go by.

"you have no evidence to support your particular truth over any other of the billions " Yes I do. Verses from The Bible. Verses that contradict their messages.

"I was lumping you in with everyone who claims to be a Christian. " I don't claim to be a Christian. I've never even claimed God Exists in the course of this discussion. All I claim is that I know what t

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:53:21 PM
I missed this earlier, I apologize:
"Then the hate and suffering caused by preaching that homosexuals are immoral because of something they can't change means every Christian church doesn't have the right message."

That's right, but probably not totally as there is probably some fringe group that doesn't teach that. Let me put it to you from a different point of view though: Can a murderer decide not to murder? Probably. Can an adulterer decide not to...adulter? Probably as well. Then a homosexual can probably decide not to practice homosexuality (Yet still be a homosexual, just non-practicing) to honor the deity (s)he has decided to love.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 8:23:45 AM
"Only in the sense that both you and they choose selected verses from your bibles, interpret them in a selected way and view the result as divine truth. "
I don't have to interpret. It's there in plain English. I don't need faith, I have evidence. They don't misinterpret, they miss the message.



They would say the same thing about you and they could produce other bible verses as their "evidence".

You cannot seriously cite the existence of the Christian bible as evidence that your favoured interpretation of the Christian bible is the one and only absolute truth. You're not stupid, so you can't seriously be doing that.

Finally, if you're reading it in English then you are reading an interpretation. You've just had someone else make it for you.

almightybob1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 4278 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:27:56 AM
I'm glad you agree. So why is it unlikely that I have knowledge of the truth in this matter of the message of the bible?


Because
1) you are one person out of billions claiming to have the truth, and
2) your truth is mutually exclusive to the truths those other billions claim to have, as I have discussed, and
3) you have no evidence to support your particular truth over any other of the billions (and likewise they have no evidence to support theirs over yours), so I am therefore forced to assign equal likelihoods to each possibility, giving your particular truth a probability of no more than 1/1,000,000,000 of being correct, which is pretty damn unlikely.

And that's assuming I accept the prior assumption that at least one of you in this billion-strong group of truth-holders is correct, ignoring the (far more likely in my opinion) possibility that every single one of you is wrong.

almightybob1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 4278 Posts
Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:20:46 AM
I knew that and I still slipped into sloppy use of the word "proven". I should have done better, especially in a thread about science.

I know, I meant when jadoig was referring to things like proving love, history or logic. But yes, tsk tsk Angilion :P

Must I be lumped with them? I disagree with them too.

I wasn't lumping you just in with bigots. I was lumping you in with everyone who claims to be a Christian.
Even at the largest level, of denominations, people can't agree on the message of the Bible, hence why there are Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Anglicans etc etc etc.
And even within those, it's rare to find that everyone agrees. Often they hold mutually exclusive opinions, and each quote Bible verses to support their own opinion. The very thing you said here - "I disagree with them too" - is a perfect example.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 4:40:19 PM
"Then you've contradicted your earlier statement..."
LOL I know. That occurred to me this morning.

"There is no connection between that statement and mine. "
This is your statement right?:
"You think that your interpretation of the verses that you choose is the one and only intended meaning of your bible, which you have faith is the truth. "
If so then I was stating that it was almost correct, and that I thought it was awesome that you were so close to the mark. "The awesome part is, it almost is(right)". Then I explained how.

"Only in the sense that both you and they choose selected verses from your bibles, interpret them in a selected way and view the result as divine truth. "
I don't have to interpret. It's there in plain English. I don't need faith, I have evidence. They don't misinterpret, they miss the message.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:27:15 AM
Must I be lumped with them? ["the bigotty ones"] I disagree with them too.


Only in the sense that both you and they choose selected verses from your bibles, interpret them in a selected way and view the result as divine truth.

I like your results better than theirs, but you both use the same method and it isn't really any different to just making stuff up and proclaiming it's true because you say so.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:15:46 AM
BTW Love is objective.


Then you've contradicted your earlier statement above love and science. If you think love is objective, you must also think that science covers it.

"Good counter, but I was making an observation rather than an interpretation:" You were making a statement of fact based on your interactions with me.


Yes, I was. You and other people.

A statement which you have faith is true.


I neither have nor need faith. I have evidence.

The awesome part is it almost is. I have knowledge, not just faith, and I've shown you some evidence straight from the bible.


There is no connection between that statement and mine. If you think there is, you have spectacularly failed to understand my statement.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 9:55:34 PM
A statement is either true or false and no one's interpretation or opinion of it changes the fact that it is true or false.


Bob: Exactly.

I'm glad you agree. So why is it unlikely that I have knowledge of the truth in this matter of the message of the bible?

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 9:51:18 PM
"Must I be lumped with them? I disagree with them too." Let me clarify: The bigotty ones.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 9:49:07 PM
"How can I possibly accept that any of you are correct about any aspect of God (or any other deity) when you can't even agree amongst yourselves," Must I be lumped with them? I disagree with them too.

"Does that question have any meaning to something which is wholly subjective?" Does the word real apply to anything that has an effect on the physical world? I'd say it does. in that case if love is subjective, then yes. BTW Love is objective. Anyone can witness love and recognize it for what it is, unless they're broken and that's a whole other ball of wax.


"Good counter, but I was making an observation rather than an interpretation:" You were making a statement of fact based on your interactions with me. A statement which you have faith is true. The awesome part is it almost is. I have knowledge, not just faith, and I've shown you some evidence straight from the bible.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:17:03 PM
Firstly, nothing can be proven except pure mathematics. Everything else is down to what the evidence suggests.


I knew that and I still slipped into sloppy use of the word "proven". I should have done better, especially in a thread about science.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:12:58 PM
You're right about the gravity stuff, except maybe that we'll understand how it works some day. No one can know that. I can just as easily say that Science will one day explain that there is a God.


You could, but there's a very big difference. Gravity can be observed to exist. It's a thing that happens. It's therefore open to explanation using science. One god picked from the thousands of gods various people have believed in in various places at various times isn't.

Let me modify my love example a little: Science can't prove love exists.


Science could do so by observing behavioural and possibly physiological changes (e.g. elevated levels of oxytocin).

Science can't prove that love is *objectively* real...but is it? Does that question have any meaning to something which is wholly subjective?

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 3:00:57 PM
I don't see where I claim he wrote something he didnt.


What he wrote:

How do we go about determining what is true and what is false?
And the most tried-and-tested effective answer humanity has discovered to date to that question is the scientific method.



What you wrote in reply:

Don't tell me science is the only way to determine truth.


Using your own argument, you only think you understand based on your own interpretation of things.


Good counter, but I was making an observation rather than an interpretation:

You think that your interpretation of the verses that you choose is the one and only intended meaning of your bible, which you have faith is the truth.

Exactly the same is true of the Christians who have different interpretations and/or use different verses.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 2:50:48 PM
This is cliche but Science (or people claiming to be science) told people the earth was flat at one point.


No, it didn't and they didn't. The earliest recorded proto-scientists(*) published papers showing the Earth to be spherical (which was well known before then, but not formally shown) and even calculated its size. They thought Earth was a perfect sphere because their observations could not be accurate enough to show that it's a bit flattened, but they certainly didn't tell people it was flat.

Only religion has done that, and only rarely.

There are a lot of things said about science that are not true.



* Ancient Greek natural philosophers weren't strictly speaking scientists, but they had the same goal and partially used the scientific method.

almightybob1
Male, 18-29, Europe
 4278 Posts
Monday, October 17, 2011 9:45:56 AM
Firstly, nothing can be proven except pure mathematics. Everything else is down to what the evidence suggests.

Secondly, the scientific process always accepts that new evidence can arise which overturns the current theories. The fact that our knowledge is constantly improving and becoming more accurate is a sign of the strength of the scientific method, not a weakness.

Thirdly, we have known the Earth was round since the days of ancient Greece.

I don't take The Bible the same way Christians do.

[...]

A statement is either true or false and no one's interpretation or opinion of it changes the fact that it is true or false.



Exactly. How can I possibly accept that any of you are correct about any aspect of God (or any other deity) when you can't even agree amongst yourselves, and hold mutually exclusive opinions which you each utterly believe is "the correct one"?

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Sunday, October 16, 2011 11:43:31 PM
"So, for example, science has proven the historical truth that Britain used to be part of mainland Europe." Good example. I can't argue that. Now use Science to prove the historical truth that the Egyptians used slaves.

Anyway, I posit that the nature of truth is this: There can be only one. A statement is either true or false and no one's interpretation or opinion of it changes the fact that it is true or false.

jadoig
Male, 30-39, Canada
 434 Posts
Sunday, October 16, 2011 10:58:42 PM
A lot of science is belief as well. There's so much we take Science's word for or someones word that it is science. Do you remember being taught that there are different taste areas of the tongue. Remember seeing the "tongue map" in your textbook and your teacher explaining it? This was false but we believed it because science told us so, or so we thought.
This is cliche but Science (or people claiming to be science) told people the earth was flat at one point.
As K said in Men in Black (Gospel truth, LOL): Imagine what we'll "know" tomorrow.

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