 EgalM
Male, 18-29, Canada
 1690 Posts
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Wednesday, September 07, 2011 7:23:22 AM
So they just wanted to cut down the front lines a bit. I don't agree with how they went about it but I understand why they did it. It's hard to fight one country if you have a hand full of others sneaking up behind you. |
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 Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:24:02 PM
than the New World and they will survive as the USA will also. We just need to be more vigilant on our borders. |
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:21:45 PM
@mvangild
That is forecasting "what if" scenarios. We do not know what the future holds for the Iraqi's. Eventually we will have to leave. If the foundation of the local populace is not strong then yes a dictator can just come swooping in again etc...
The Iraqi's have had 5000 years to get their act together. We can't hold their hand forever, and we can't worry about every two bit evil jack ass that pops up and threatens the USA.
We left South Vietnam. It failed but then became unified. Now the Vietnamese are trying to become our ally.Therefore so much for the evil communists.
George Washington our founding father who set much of the Executive Branch precedents that laid a core foundation for this country. He emphatically stated in his farewell address that we should avoid making permanent alliances. That includes Iraq. I agree with him.
Iraq need to be on it's own now. Ditto with Afghanistan. Both countries have been around longer |
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 sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
2867 Posts
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Tuesday, September 06, 2011 12:38:53 AM
The title is misleading- "admit" is not the right word, as it implies that Clark claims he took an active role in the coup, which he did not. He is accusing others of a coup, and is clearly condemning their actions. While I think Clark's criticisms of the Bush administration are entirely valid, his accusations aren't as damning as it would be for someone like Rumsfeld to come out and say "yeah, I admit that we capitalized on 9/11 by pushing a foreign policy agenda that we had outlined long before the attacks occurred- my bad!" |
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 mvangild
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
528 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 8:40:00 PM
@Sachi,
The problem with the "fly or fall" methodology is that we are leaving the future of Iraq to chance. So, let's say the government fails. There is a non-negligible probability that whoever takes on the leadership role will be hostile to the U.S., allowing al Qaeda (sp?) to base operations there, financing terrorist cells, etc. The more likely scenario is that a military leader in the region will stage a coup to take over the government, set himself up as leader for life, begin a massive "ethnic cleansing" which will inevitably include killing off the Kurdish population in the north, and destroy whatever hopes Iraq may have had for democracy. This person will also most likely allow al Qaeda cells in the country, because he blames the U.S. (rightly so) for the destruction of his country and the lives of so many of his family/friends/acquaintances, all the while paying lip service to the U.S. that these "terrorists must be stopped." |
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 Listypoos
Male, 30-39, Europe
1535 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 7:42:25 PM
@Crakrjak "Wesley Clark has been a democrat ideologue for a long time now, I seriously doubt any republican would've shared such inside information with him."
Are you referring to the Joint Chiefs officer he says gave him the info? If so, then it wasn't really a democrat speaking to a republican... it was a soldier speaking to another soldier and sharing military stuff, not politics... even at those ranks that only those versed in politics get to, the camaraderie of soldiers would take precedent I think... when soldiers get together they talk military stuff not politics. |
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Listypoos
Male, 30-39, Europe
1535 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 7:33:52 PM
I met his predecessor in the SACEUR role when i was attached to the us military from the uk...he was a right miserable twat most of the time... wish we'd had this guy instead he seems a bit more straight talking and respectable.... he's saying here what lots of people already suspect, but it's nice to hear someone high up saying it.
I'm sure there's a political reason for him doing so as well as a moral one...but I for one believe him - The Bush administration and it's advisors were hell bent on regime change in the middle east and lied to the population in order to legitimise it. That's not conspiracy theory, it's a fact...they said there were wmd there, and it was a lie. It wasn't just wrong, the intel told the politicians there were doubts about it and the politicians ignored that and told their people the lie that it was 100% guaranteed. Blair did the same over here cause he was that eager to curry favour with Bush.
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 TypicalJerk
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
534 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 12:56:55 PM
Bwa-ahahaha! This kills me every time I hear it. What, is Canada not a free nation? Australia? New Zealand?
This kills me. .
Yeah, they are now free of British reign. . BUT, they got theirs through diplomacy, unlike the United States. Learn up on yer history. |
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TypicalJerk
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
534 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 12:33:26 PM
--Here's the kicker. The world better wake up as well. As America will be even a worse nightmare than what you European trolls think they are now.--
Wait until our dollar falls flat while we are still out in the middle east and then can't afford to bring our soldiers back.
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 xavroche
Male, 18-29, Europe
621 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 11:11:05 AM
While I think General Clark raises some good points, I think it needs to be put in perspective at this point that Clark was involved in political self promotion. His views are therefore biased.
Also that the NeoCon agenda was put to the forefront after 9/11 and that part of that agenda was a projection of force for political change is not a secret.
In essence what I'm getting at is that I'm not sure what conspiracy is being referred to. A conspiracy implies something hidden. All of this is public general knowledge, even the actors have never denied their policy aims and both the project for the new american century and the wolfowitz doctrine in general have been public and openly available.
Yes, in my opinion too much power was given to the executive branch after 9/11, yes, again in my opinion the foreign policy doctrine after 9/11 was toxic, but talking about a conspiracy implies a hidden agenda, and as far as I can tell there wasn't one. |
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 mal_BB
Male, 18-29, Europe
1224 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 7:53:55 AM
The French only helped out the US because at the time we (the British) were at war with them; they didn't like us and we threatened to cut off their trade routs. They still don't like us; during the Falklands they sold arms to the Argentinians claiming 'business is business'. Only two things speak when it comes to war; power and money. Everything else is BS. |
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 3:47:08 AM
@antagonizer
No my wifes unc;es and father and my uncles and grandfather fought in WWII. Smartass you knew what I meant. |
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 Samsquanch
Male, 30-39, Canada
794 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 3:32:28 AM
" America would not be a free nation without their help."
Bwa-ahahaha! This kills me every time I hear it. What, is Canada not a free nation? Australia? New Zealand? |
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 Jowsh
Male, 18-29, Europe
1080 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 3:12:33 AM
@Draculya +1.
He has painted a bit of a giant target on his head though...Say hello to mister phone tap! |
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 scapegoat7
Male, 18-29, Western US
200 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 1:19:40 AM
"What if occupying countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and bombing Pakistan is directly related to the hatred directed towards us. What if the American people woke-up and understood the official reasons for going to war are always based on lies and promoted by war propaganda, to serve special interest groups. What if we as a nation came to realize that the quest for empire eventually destroys ALL great nations." -RON PAUL --PLEAZE WAKE UP-- |
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 markust123
Male, 40-49, Western US
3783 Posts
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Monday, September 05, 2011 12:59:17 AM
"It was minimal and it was a necessity of France to go to war as I stated previous." Absolute BS. The British would have won without the help of the French. America would not be a free nation without their help. |
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 antagonizer
Male, 18-29, Canada
480 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 11:29:27 PM
@Sachi001 "Second My wife and my family both fought (WWII) in France, Italy and the Pacific."
Wow, your wife and family would have to be, lets see...war ended 66 years ago and you had to be at least 18 to join...
Sachi001
Male, 30-39
Asia
Don't think so sport. lol I call bs on you. You're out.
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andfrank03
Male, 18-29, Southern US
68 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:46:53 PM
"War is Peace" George Orwell, '1984'
Thank goodness we have freedom of speech in this country. |
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 Draculya
Male, 30-39, Asia
6694 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:11:27 PM
Elect this man. |
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:53:06 PM
@atogonizer
You said:
"And yet, Americans seem to feel the need to throw it in their faces on a regular basis.
Seems to me that the US merely showed up to help, while France personally risked war with Britain in aiding the US."
It was minimal and it was a necessity of France to go to war as I stated previous.
Second My wife and my family both fought (WWII) in France, Italy and the Pacific. They have never thrown such in the face of the French as do many of other vets that I know. Most don't even want to remember the war and rarely talk about it. Where is it that we constantly throw it back at the French?
Third when the allies landed at Normandy. France was no longer French it was German.
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:41:01 PM
@mvangild
Deep quagmire isn't it that the US has put itself. We feel that we are obligated and they will fall if we leave don't we? Already it backs up what I say about our confidence in this country to preserve it's freedom. Choice is spend loads more of tax money which is crushing us and more deaths of out young and theirs. Else pull out and let the fledgling chick learn to fly.
I say they have one more year and we are out. Soar or crash. They have to grow on their own and if they want to be enemies then it will bite them in the ass later. Else trade and be friends.
Do you not think this wise approach or do you want to still coddle them?
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antagonizer
Male, 18-29, Canada
480 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:34:05 PM
@Sachi001 All of that is my point.
You quibble over the technicalities of WHY France decided to help the US against the British, minimizing their contribution.
Yet, when it comes to the US assistance in liberation of France, you phrase it as it was their goal all along. It wasn't. The only reason americans were even on french soil was to get a foothold on the European mainland and attack a perceived threat to american soil.
Their liberation was simply a tertiary objective meaning you assisted them because you needed to, not because you wanted to.
France didn't NEED to help the US...but they did. |
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:29:18 PM
IMHO I'm going out on a limb here and calling that America will fall on it's face due to havoc by inept politicians and their voters. This should be in less than ten years and the result will be a new Napoleon. Then Americans can wonder why they will be f*&cked even more because your freedoms your accustomed toward will disappear. Already it's happening with such like the patriot Act.
Here's the kicker. The world better wake up as well. As America will be even a worse nightmare than what you European trolls think they are now. You thought Bush was a Cowboy wait till you get someone like Rick Perry jacked up on cocaine. |
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mvangild
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
528 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:21:51 PM
Sachi, what would you have us do? Simply leave? As you say, the house of ideological freedom will collapse because a false foundation was established.
I will not disagree with the point that we should not have gone in in the first place. Someone decided to play a massive shell game with the rest of the world, diverting our attention to Iraq while the prize was in Afghanistan then Pakistan. Who was involved, I cannot say. I can only speculate that the CIA saw this as a huge opportunity to rid themselves of a mess that was named Saddam Hussein. But, that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that the Iraq government was stripped away and rebuilt (although I'm not happy with how it is arranged). To leave it now would be to invite tragedy as it would tear itself apart from the inside. We have to be there long enough to help strengthen it against reasonable stress, both domestic and foreign. |
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Sachi001
Male, 30-39, Asia
598 Posts
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Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:20:07 PM
continued....people do not pay attention in history class.
"History is boring! Why do I have to take this stupid class" as the idiot student tweets away. |
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