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The Male-Dominated Culture [Pic]

Hits: 28178 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: eastsiderepp
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:57:28 PM
Also, Heureux, given your stated views on group pride, you should be actively campaigning against gay pride. Are you? Bet you're not. Bet you think it's different when "we" do it. That's the way group politics normally works, whichever group(s) the speaker has chosen as their favoured group(s).

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:48:31 PM
Pride, of course, the thing behind anti-gay theology, and racism, and atheism, and sexism. Not healthy self-esteem, but that ugly "I am better than other people" stuff, like your lies about gays seeking more rights and protections. You lie about us to build up your own ego, out of pride.


You are rather obviously projecting your own beliefs onto me. Your pride is monumental and you openly state the inferiority of your chosen enemy-group.

You're also making untrue statements, as usual, since I have never said gays are seeking anything. It might look that way to someone who is so prejudiced that they view all homosexuals as being the same, but if that's how you see it that's your problem, not mine.

Love the "us" thing, by the way. Do you exclude all bisexual people, or just those (like me) who don't agree with you?

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Saturday, May 28, 2011 9:40:43 PM
Because nothing affirms the validity of your points like ad hominem, eh Angilion. It is not enough that you distort and misrepresent, playing both GLBTQ people and people of faith against each other for your own amusement, you've got to make sure you tear other people down in the process. You have been caught lying about GLBTQ people many, many times.


If you believed that, you could provide many examples.

Or even just one.

But you can't because it isn't true.

You just make things up that you'd like to be true and say that they are true. Maybe you even end up believing that they're true. Of course, that undermines every argument you make, even the ones that aren't just you spewing out your irrational hatreds.

CosmicKarma
Female, 13-17, Australia
 32 Posts
Saturday, May 28, 2011 7:25:35 PM
Whoah... that was the political cartoon in my local newspaper a while back.

zephid
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 92 Posts
Friday, May 27, 2011 8:28:17 AM
Not trolling. There is no supreme being, god, flying spaghetti monster,ect. I was just wondering what Heureuxs' beliefs were on the salvation of non believers, deniers, and people like me who think religion= easterbunny= toothfairy= ghosts= magic.

And as far as where i am 'going' when this all ends, isn't it your job to spread the gospel and warn me about my sinful ways to bring me to god? and as far as what you believe is my denial, look at the easter bunny. Been told stories, seen pictures, hell, received the fruits of his labors in chocolate. Sit back and look at your denial of the existence of an actual delivering eggs easter bunny, and you will know what i have for a god. No denial, No personal hell, no feeling, I don't pity or look down on people of faith, because i DO understand why mankind clings to imaginary gods. It's fear of the unknown. Fear of punishment. Fear of oneself.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Friday, May 27, 2011 12:12:57 AM
Also, Heureux, I ask you this: Do you believe that there are other texts that contain truth about the nature of God and the Universe besides the Bible, or do you invalidate the spiritual experiences of the prophets, saints, shamen, yogis, etc on whose experiences the sacred texts of other religions are based?

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16708 Posts
Friday, May 27, 2011 12:09:18 AM
Heureux: The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah certainly did come from God, As did the flood of Noah's time. Your unwillingness to recognize your sins means you're living in it.

You've twisted and spun and twirled around so much now that you can't even say that I, nor anyone else, has sinned now. For as much as the same 2 phrases of Jesus you have used to claim your lifestyle is not sinful then you cannot claim that I have sinned.

So long as they love God, Jesus, and their neighbor, and doesn't hate anyone then no body sins, According to you. Sorry buddy but that's false teaching, There is more to sin than just Love and Hate.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Friday, May 27, 2011 12:05:59 AM
"But since Scripture is the record of what spiritual people have experienced, when you say it cannot possess any inherent truth, you are invalidating their experiences."

Incorrect. I'm recognizing the inherent limitations of language. Which speaks to the Buddhist perspective on scripture. It's not so much that I adopted it upon becoming a Buddhist- it's largely that perspective that drew me to Buddhism.

In Buddhism, even the words of the Buddha are seen as inherently meaningless and empty, because words alone cannot transmit understanding from one person to another. Words are subject to the law of impermanence. Their meanings change, sometimes slightly, sometimes greatly, from one person to another. Their meanings change over time. Entire languages die.

Words can help a awaken understanding within a person, but reading scripture and thinking that one understands it does not guarantee an understanding of that which the person who wrote them intend

Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:56:03 PM
For Zephid

Which, ironically, is pretty much what atheists claim happens when they die. It may be that while everyone else returns to the Absolute, you and other atheists will get you what believed in - just wink out of existence like some sad little candle, a poor player who is heard no more while everyone else goes to the cast party of their understanding.

But, I don't know what is going to happen to you. I don't know what will happen in your future before death, and lack the pride to opine what will happen after.

And be frank, you don't really care what I think anyways. And in the grand scheme, what I think will, or will not, happen to you when you die, is completely irrelevant. I have no say in it. Whatever you've prepared for yourself will happen, or not, regardless of my opinion about it.

Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:45:02 PM
So, Zephid, based on that parallel, and there are others to other people living in denial, I am exploring the hypothesis that atheists are in denial, that they too experience the Divine, but deny it.

Oh, they may not experience it they way they expected to, or as strongly or beautifully or lovingly as others, but they sound just like ex-gays - trying to drown out a truth they don't like.

Hell, spiritually speaking, is simply separation from God, Zephid. It is not a place, and if the mystics are correct that there is nothing that is separate from the Divine, then the fullest form of hell will be non-existence.

So you may be in hell already for all anyone knows, in a corporeal self-imposed separation from God that will eventually lead to utter non-existence.


Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:37:44 PM
Zephid

First off, I'm not sure I believe your denial, any more than I believe ex-gays. I used to just give atheists a doubt, but as I have recognized the extraordinary parallels between ex-gays (and many homophobes) and atheism, I have been convinced that atheists are in active denial.

Both use the same stories "I used to, but . . ." and then conclude that their experience defines everyone else's experiences. Both tend to have been miserable, usually because of their own choices, blame their misery on either religion or sexuality, and then concluded that everyone else is miserable too.

And with ex-gays, they keep getting caught being not so very "ex" after all. In fact, Exodus Intl. even admits that no one changes from gay to straight, only the label, the word they use to describe themselves changes.


Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:32:38 PM
"since you operate on irrational prejudice of your own,"

Because nothing affirms the validity of your points like ad hominem, eh Angilion. It is not enough that you distort and misrepresent, playing both GLBTQ people and people of faith against each other for your own amusement, you've got to make sure you tear other people down in the process. You have been caught lying about GLBTQ people many, many times. It has destroyed your credibility.

Pride, of course, the thing behind anti-gay theology, and racism, and atheism, and sexism. Not healthy self-esteem, but that ugly "I am better than other people" stuff, like your lies about gays seeking more rights and protections. You lie about us to build up your own ego, out of pride.

Pride, to many Christian theologians, is the source of sin.


Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:20:42 PM
However, sbeelz, if you recognize that while finite language and finite human minds cannot contain or express the totality of the inherent truth of the Absolute, and in truth nothing can, it can express some portion of inherent truth.

"From my experience, words can only point to the truth, "

Words could only point to truth if they also contain some inherent truth. That is what makes lying and deception and distotion such an impediment to understanding.

The challenge is not that words cannot express or contain inherent truth, but that they can express many truths but not the totality, the Absolute that is all truths at once.

And so language and culture influence how people express their truth of their experiences of the Divine, not fully, but not without truth either.

Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 11:10:10 PM
Sbeelz, you wrote:

'Like I said, I would never invalidate another person's spiritual experience, or any experience of theirs, because I'm not living life through their eyes."

And that is exactly what atheism and homophobia/anti-gay theology accomplish. And though it varies in how it is communicated, all prejudices - racism, sexism, ageism, you name it - scratch the surface and they are all about invalidating other people.

"I don't believe that the nature of words allows any scripture to possess inherent truth."

But since Scripture is the record of what spiritual people have experienced, when you say it cannot possess any inherent truth, you are invalidating their experiences.

If you completely reject Scriptures, any of them, you are rejecting people's ability to experience the Absolute and report their experiences.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:36:13 PM
@zephid- come on, why bring trolling into what has been an open and engaging discussion? Does it REALLY matter to you what someone else believes will happen to you when you die?

zephid
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 92 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 10:03:48 PM
@Heureux-

I do not believe in your, or any other god. Do you believe I am going to hell?

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:22:34 PM
The word translated "abomination" is actually a word for ritual uncleanliness, used in the context of idolatry.


The context in Leviticus is unclear, since it changes from verse to verse. 1-5 is an intro about stating authority, 6-20 is about who you're not allowed to have sex with, 21 is about not sacrificing children to another god, 22 is the unclear verse possibly about homosexuality or some subset of homosexuality, 23 is about not having sex with animals.

Verse 21 looks like an anomaly to me, not the context, and it's not about idolatry anyway.

In a general context, to'evah is used for all sorts of ritual uncleanliness, not just idolatry. But I agree that "abomination" is a highly inaccurate way to translate it.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:18:47 PM
...And I fully believe that truth reveals itself to everybody differently, through different faiths. I see different religions as different spiritual languages. On the surface, they appear very different, but they all communicate this core of truth to believers. To me, a person espousing that their faith is the only "true" faith is as silly as someone saying that English is the only "correct" language. I refer you to a Zen Koan.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:15:36 PM
ut this is where things get kind of sticky (and interesting!) Really, when it comes down to it, my disagreement with theists over the nature of reality is much more nuanced and complex than the existence or nonexistence of a deity.

There are many different ways that Christians and other theists believe. Some believe in a looser interpretation of scripture than others. My disagreement is really only with people who believe that their scripture is to be taken literally as the direct word of the Creator of the Universe, and that all other scripture is false. Not because I think their scripture is false, but because I don't believe that the nature of words allows any scripture to possess inherent truth. From my experience, words can only point to the truth, but that it is up to each individual to discover truth for him or her self- which is where faith comes in for me. I don't claim to know truth- but I have faith that my own spiritual practice will help me uncover it.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:12:37 PM
Hebrew is actually "in a woman's bed"


It's much less clear than that. A literal translation is practically meaningless and there's no way of knowing what the original author meant. Not just for that segment, but for the whole verse. Your interpretation is one possibility, but there are others. For example, it might have been about not violating sexed roles. It's just not clear.

Jesus said that the entire laws was contained in two statements: "love God with your entire self" and "love your neighbor as yourself".


The same source also has him saying that every OT law must be obeyed in every tiny detail, so like most things to do with the bible it's just a matter of people picking out the bits they like.


sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:05:21 PM
"Emotions are intangible, like God. Suppose you said to someone "I am in love with so and so" and that person replied "Love does not exist". That would be the equivalent of atheism. And if they replied "I don't believe that you love so and so" - would that really be much better?"

If someone were to tell another person "I don't believe you love so and so," that would be akin to me telling someone "I don't believe that you experience God." Like I said, I would never invalidate another person's spiritual experience, or any experience of theirs, because I'm not living life through their eyes. And in all honesty, I extend that same courtesy to people that I've taken care of who have Alzheimer's and schizophrenia. Their experiences may diverge significantly from mine and everyone else's, but that doesn't invalidate their reality. I've found that by coming to my interactions with people experiencing "psychosis"

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11029 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 9:03:28 PM
Then you are not an atheist, because atheism specifically states "There is no God".


No, it doesn't.

Atheist is not a synonym for non-believer


It's not a synonym, no. It's the definition of the word. Always has been, hence the etymology.

Of course, since you operate on irrational prejudice of your own, it's not surprising that you're fundamentally ignorant about the group you're so vehemently bigoted against.

trippyhippy9
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 560 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:39:03 PM
lol, Serious thread is serious.

Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:34:01 PM
sbeelz, you wrote:

"I don't say "there is no God." I say "I don't believe in God." There is a difference. I would never seek to invalidate someone else's spiritual experience. "

Then you are not an atheist, because atheism specifically states "There is no God". Atheist is not a synonym for non-believer, or questioner, or "I don't experience".

And really, the "I don't believe" is only slightly better.

Emotions are intangible, like God. Suppose you said to someone "I am in love with so and so" and that person replied "Love does not exist". That would be the equivalent of atheism. And if they replied "I don't believe that you love so and so" - would that really be much better?

Now, if they said "I don't feel that way about so and so" - or "I've never met so and so" - that would be different.

See, the heart of it is believ

Heureux
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1060 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 8:26:40 PM
One more thing for you to ponder, CrakrJak, and it goes back to that guy you ignored, Jesus.

In Matthew 7:15-23, Jesus gives a test for true, or Godly, teaching. He says that good trees bear good fruit, and evil trees bear evil fruit.

All of the fruit of anti-gay theology is evil, CrakrJak. From your degrading claims to the death penalty legislation in Uganda to hate crimes, marriage discrimination, the lies homophoobes tell about homosexuals, God, themselves, even the dismissive way it characterizes heterosexual intimacy - all of it is evil.

If you believe Jesus, then his test for right understanding proves beyond all doubt that the belief "homosexuality is sin" is evil, it does not come from God, and those who teach are in grave and serious rebellion against God.

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