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Video Games As Art: The Great Debate

Hits: 11257 | Rating: (2.8) | Category: Games | Added by: cobrakiller
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Morbidius
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 57 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:45:04 PM
Fair and balanced my ass. F*ck you Fox news. Obviously trying to skew the issue by opening up with 'should tax-payer dollars pay for call of duty?' while showing scenes of violence from the game.

sbeelz
Male, 30-39, Western US
 2869 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 3:33:16 PM
If video games are art, then A Link to the Past is a Masterpiece!

taelmx
Female, 18-29, Western US
 244 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 6:08:19 AM
$200,000 is NOTHING compared to what major commercial game developers spend on a single release. Besides that, any games that are getting funding are not going to be designed around a business strategy or trying to pull a profit, but rather independent developers that have a project that will more than likely be for educational or artistic value. The debate isn't about whether games are art or not, they are.

cobrakiller
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6952 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 6:07:01 AM
batmanners, you dont seem to get how this really works. the money would go to indie developers. developers are the artists. when it comes to the business aspect, that would be the publisher, the ones who put the money into the game being mass produced.

to use altaru's reasoning, the developer would be michelangelo (the artist), while the publisher would be the person who commissions them to make the art.

it is only after the art is originally produced that the publisher takes the developers work and mass produces it. there are thousands of re-creations of masterful artworks (stary night, the screamer, david, mona lisa, etc.) all around the world. just because they become mass produced doesnt mean the original work isnt art.

Batmanners
Male, 18-29, Canada
 4012 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:13:42 AM
"So, what? Just because you make something people enjoy and enjoy some modicum of success and popularity for it, it can't be art and you can't be an artist? "

No, I'm saying that if you want to be artful, you don't sell out to become successful. The Beatles made it rich and famous by believing in what they do and doing it well. Backstreet Boys were created in a marketing meeting.

Batmanners
Male, 18-29, Canada
 4012 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 5:10:25 AM
I don't understand the hipster comment...

Artists can make art for a living as Michaelangelo did when he was comissionned to make a piece. What the video game companies are doing is not art, it's business, completely different.

If Michaelangelo made 60,000 identical pieces of art to sell to the masses for pure profit, I'm sure your idea of what is and what isn't art would suit my perspective. Yes he's selling 60,000 pieces of art, but what is the point of giving someone money so he can make money?

Indy game devs should be the only ones who can receive the grant, as many of them make an effort to make a good artful game. The rest of them are in it for money, especially true for Activision who simply copy+paste their receipe for money into video games.

The CEO of Activision businessman, not a gamer, and it shows in the way they have handled every major title in their inventory in the past 5 years. No major improvements, no risk, no love, no soul.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Thursday, May 26, 2011 12:02:58 AM
If you're making an artsy movie, you go to indy film festivals. You don't go to Hollywood. If you make artsy music, you play very select gigs, you don't move to Los Angeles to work with a famous agent who will make you rich. If you want to make ANYTHING ARTFUL, don't sell-out, ever.

So, what? Just because you make something people enjoy and enjoy some modicum of success and popularity for it, it can't be art and you can't be an artist?

Your definition basically means that the woman who paints with her vomit is an artist, because she's "expressing herself" all over the canvas, while Michelangelo isn't, since he was successful and made some of his works on commission.

Stop talking out of your ass.

lyonartime
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 258 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:07:02 PM
I have mixed feelings about this, as I'm sure many of you do. Games mix Art with economics since they're so costly to produce, and often the pendulum will swing toward one side or another based on the intent of the developer. I find it analogous to architecture, in a sense. They both can contain great beauty, but both are made for a specific purpose. Every building is not art, but buildings CAN be art, and the exact moment it crosses the line is hard to discern.

As long as these subsidies are given to the right people, (struggling indie developers) I have no problem with it. Offsetting the massive costs of making a game can allow developers to focus less on sales and more on their intended message. Just keep the money out of the hands of EA and the like.

Honestly, the most beneficial element to all of this news exposure is the slow movement of games toward the "Art" title, not just in the eyes of critics, but in the eyes of the common man as well. Only the

i-am-ninja
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 141 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 10:49:55 PM
@Batmanners

That just makes you a hipster

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 15125 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:05:11 PM
All taxpayer-funded subsidies for art should be abolished. Good art doesn't need it; bad art doesn't deserve it.

Batmanners
Male, 18-29, Canada
 4012 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:02:16 PM
My point stands that art should not be exploited for profit.

I do agree that some games are truly made as artful pieces. Like Limbo and Lucidity. To allow any video game company to receive a grant would allow all games to receive a grant, because who is to say what is artul in a game and what is not. Modern Warfare games aren't pieces of art to me, they are realistic, but not artful as far as the medium of video gaming goes.

If truly artsy games get grants then so do every yearly sports games and that is bullpoo and I would rather see a starving artist than to see the sports industry profit from my favorite medium even more.

I hate sports and I don't care who knows.

varietyweasl
Male, 18-29, Asia
 35 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:00:22 PM
The education industry has a plethora of competitors producing a range of software, all the big players have invested already, and there is a vibrant cottage industry too. Governments already pay a fortune for schools' ICT and thats only going to continue, so why waste money on this?

Batmanners
Male, 18-29, Canada
 4012 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 8:55:29 PM
Yes they are artful, no they are not art. Art is not to be sold in large quantities. Art is self-expression. If you're making an artsy movie, you go to indy film festivals. You don't go to Hollywood. If you make artsy music, you play very select gigs, you don't move to Los Angeles to work with a famous agent who will make you rich. If you want to make ANYTHING ARTFUL, don't sell-out, ever.

Video games are:
1. An industry
2. Entertainement

Yes they may have the artful values within them, characters with blahblahblah and a desolate battlefield on a distant planet with music blahbnlahblah... It's produced en masse for the sole purpose of making somebody rich, the only reason it looks, sounds and feels good is because it helps sales.

I don't care if Bioware (Mass Effect, Dragon Age) makes a nice game because they care for the art, I don't care if Valve (Half-Life, Team Fortress, Portal) is the nicest blahblahblah... My point stands that art shoul

cobrakiller
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6952 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:12:19 PM
oh, and i just realized that this video doesnt really get the message across very well. the NEA is planning on funding independent developers making educational games. The money may also be used in programs to teach people the trade. Its not just going to companies to make games, but to make games for the specific cause of teaching.

cobrakiller
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6952 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:10:24 PM
altaru, im sorry about your issue with the "drag to share" thing. I noticed when i checked, but it is always above the window and out of my way. Im not sure on how to fix that problem.

ledzeppeloyd, i think you may be reading a little too much into that. besides, modern warfare wont be seeing a dime of that money.

ledzeppeloyd
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 2304 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:06:32 PM
the government wants to support it because its pretty much propaganda. the day i got modern warfare two, an army recruiter sent me an e-mail. coincidence? no drating way.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:06:05 PM
so, in conclusion: although video games are an artform, i dont believe all video games are art. Just like drawing/painting is an artform, but every scribble is not necessarily a piece worthy of an exhibit.

does this get my point across better?


Yeah, I see your point there.

Which is why (coming in a very roundabout way back to the original topic at hand) I don't like the idea of government funding for art PERIOD.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 6:02:18 PM
I do see what you are saying with GTA though, but good luck finding somebody outside of the gaming community to agree with GTA being art.

Yeah, you have a point there. Everyone outside the gaming community sees it as "THAT HORRIBLE MURDER SIMULATOR!"

as for the toolbar, have you tried to hide it?

Yeah, I hid the main bar at the bottom, but still over-top of the actual video, this little black bar that says "drag to share" comes right across the pause/play button and time bar. It makes it a pain in the ass to replay something I missed or pause so I can do something else.

cobrakiller
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6952 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:59:48 PM
I just realized I should probably elaborate more on what I said about art being an "opinion". what is an artform is not an opinion; music, theatre, painting, sculpting, performance, film, video games, etc. These are all art forms. But within each artform are pieces that people will have their opinion on whether or not that piece in particular is truly art.
I for one am not a fan of most "modern art" and think that most of it is just a mess that people decide to call art, and honestly I believe most of the "artists" know it. but, each of these pieces that I dont necessarily consider art are within the realm of these listed artforms.

so, in conclusion: although video games are an artform, i dont believe all video games are art. Just like drawing/painting is an artform, but every scribble is not necessarily a piece worthy of an exhibit.

does this get my point across better?

cobrakiller
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 6952 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:53:07 PM
altaru, thats why i said it is all opinion. I personally found the halo story pretty weak and lacking, but many people love it. I never went outside the game for any of the story though, which is probably why it never really grew on me. I do see what you are saying with GTA though, but good luck finding somebody outside of the gaming community to agree with GTA being art.

as for the toolbar, have you tried to hide it? all the way on the right of the bar, you can hit the double arrow down to hide it. It never bothered me after i did this.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:45:48 PM
GTA is (and this might be a little confusing) like a painting, in a way.

It's a massive canvas city just set out for you to explore and observe. Sure, you can coat the walls and streets with blood, but part of paintings is how you interpret what's going on and what your own imagination does with it. Like looking at the Mona Lisa and wondering why she's smiling (you know, aside from "because you're supposed to smile when you're modeling, unless the artist says otherwise").

The only difference is, in GTA, you get to take what you're imagining, and put it directly on the canvas.

It's also a parody of movies and pop culture these days, so I guess I could mention that too.

As for Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter... Well, I guess you could say I see fighting games as more of a lazy man's sport than art, kind of like racing games. So I guess you're right on with those two.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:38:31 PM
Ico: art [gripping story and a beautiful game]
CoD: not art
Okami: art [again, a beautiful game]
GTA: not art
Braid: art [Incredible game, story, and visuals]
Mortal Kombat: not art
Legend of Zelda series: art [beautiful stories]
Street Fighter: not art
Shadow of the Collosus: art [incredible game]
Halo: not art



Unfortunately, Cobra, I'm going to have to disagree with your "not" judgements.

CoD and Halo are like movies you interact with. CoD shows war through the eyes of the soldiers, like Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan.

Halo has an epic narrative and story to unfold as you're playing. Have you actually checked out the whole canon story-line? Not to mention, the music and visuals are gorgeous.

Of course, like with movies, there are people who watch/play for the "pretty graphics and shooting things," but that doesn't mean it's not art.

(cont.)

gyro231995
Male, 13-17, Midwest US
 36 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:33:42 PM
14.3 trillion in debt and the government wants to give grants to people who make games like The Impossible Game? No thanks.

Altaru
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 3500 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 5:24:47 PM
Honestly, while I do believe that video games are art, I don't think any art should be funded by the government.

Seriously, if you're an "artist" and people aren't purchasing your work, you suck as an artist, no matter how much you want to blame the audience (which is just a sign of being a terrible artist, by the way).

If you're a good artist, then someone will appreciate your skills and you will receive your funding the good old fashioned way: someone will pay you to use them.

If not, well... I don't see why we should all be forced to support you.

BTW: F*CK IAB AND THIS F*CKING TOOLBAR. Jeez, I can't even hit the pause/play button without the f*cking "Drag to share" things popping up.

Kodyo
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 225 Posts
Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:13:10 PM
"Hey, I was a music major in college..."
Yeah, that's all i needed to hear for him to lose all credibility.

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