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South Dakota Moves To Legalize Murder...

Hits: 18453 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: zombunny
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2813 Posts
Thursday, February 17, 2011 4:45:14 AM
@MattPrince

That would suggest, then, that it is possible to see when activity first starts in the brain, and build an abortion policy around it.

@Angilion

Ah, I didn't realise that about the technicality, so I'll conceed my point to you on that.

The other point remains, though: that the majority abort very early, well before the 20 weeks needed for brain activity to start that MattPrince has uncovered.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:35:31 PM
@musuko - apologies about the name fu - its my shotgun keyboard technique.

"Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks."

Source from ECG of premature babies

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11246 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:34:04 PM
Besides, think about it for a moment. In England and Wales, is it really plausible that 200,000 pregnancies per year pose a severe level of medical threat to the woman? Obviously not. However, every pregnancy causes some physical harm to the woman, so every abortion can be said to be preventing harm to the woman. It's a technicality that has become routine.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11246 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:30:57 PM
"The overwhelming majority of abortions (95% in 2004 for England and Wales) were certified under the statutory ground of risk of injury to the mental or physical health of the pregnant woman."

So the figures suggest that not only are women not aborting for casual reasons (95% aren't, according to the above)[..]



Absolutely wrong, though your conclusion is understandable because you don't know UK law.

Note the word "statutory". When abortion was first legalised in the UK, it was done so on that basis - that it was a medical procedure done because pregnancy was a risk to the mental or physical health of the mother.

It is simply rote formula to comply with an old law and it means nothing at all. No matter how casually abortion is taken, it'll still go down on the records as being a necessary medical procedure to reduce risk to the mental and physical health of the woman.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11246 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:24:05 PM
It's based on the medical fact that if your heart stops beating you are dead


Your knowledge of medicine is at least a couple of centuries out of date.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11246 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:22:58 PM
I've proposed a compromise here several times now, That life begins when the heart starts beating. It's based on the medical fact that if your heart stops beating you are dead, and I believe it to be a rational and easily verifiable limit.


That would put the timing at 4-5 weeks after conception.

Are you advocating that abortion be outlawed at that point?

You're shifting from "person" to "life". Is that a deliberate change of definition or are you just being sloppy?

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4308 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 1:20:31 PM
LastJuggalo-"I don't think this will pass, but if it does, I'm jumping the border to Canada."

You DO realize that South Dakota does not share a border with Canada, right? And that this change in the law would only be in effect in South Dakota, right? (of course, over half of the other states have similar laws..so there's a very good chance you are already under such a law).

LastJuggalo
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 214 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 12:35:22 PM
I don't think this will pass, but if it does, I'm jumping the border to Canada.

fivezones
Male, 40-49, Western US
 1028 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:36:03 AM
Hello retard who posted this.

It is the same law already in 25 states. It applies to self-defense if a woman gets murdered you can still defend her fetus.

What a steaming pile of drat this post was.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6457 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 11:34:34 AM
OK Sigon, I can tell by your spelling we're not in the same intellectual league. Not trying to put myself on a pedestal just explaining it's difficult for me as a living, breathing, English speaking human to have an intelligent conversation with someone who can't spell simple words. Typos are one thing but you can't spell "catheter, defecate, intravenous" or even "receive". How can I have an intelligent conversation with someone who completely ignores spell check?
Many of our societal problems can be blamed on unintelligent people having the right to vote.

green_batman
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 730 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:57:51 AM
Babies do not gain episodic memories until about two years of age. That means that they do not retain memories of their personal experiences, though they may retain memories of facts and interpretations of the world. I think that episodic memory is important in rational self-awareness, which is what I consider to be the threshold for determining whether something is human (though that definition may have to change if we ever encounter rational extraterrestrial life). This is why I do not consider fetuses to be human life, but simply life. If you object to my particular use of the term 'human', I'll put it another way: I believe that rational entities are more worthy of consideration than non-rational entities. Humans above a certain age are rational entities, those below a certain age are non-rational entities. I do not believe that non-rational entities should be killed simply as a matter of convenience, but I believe that the life of a rational entity should be valued more highly.

Sigon
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 129 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:54:46 AM
@madest ok, then by your definition, anyone who needs to use a cathader to deficate is not human, anyone on life support that recieve nutients intraveiniously is no longer human...Anyone in an Iron Lung....not human

Please think before you post...

Sigon
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 129 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:52:55 AM
As a Pro-Lifer, I find it disturbing that "radical" pro-lifers would resort to Murder of others to promote their views...Isn't that what the whole point is? There is no such thing as "Justified Homocide" unless it is in self defense or the defense of another...

Personally I like the Law they are looking to pass in Ohio where if a Heatbeat is detected then the abortion would be illegal. There is no way a Pro-Choice person can disregard a fetus as a person if there is a heart beat...none that is rational anyways

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6457 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 10:07:57 AM
You may call it a "chicken egg" Gerry, but most modern english speaking humans simply say "egg". Unless they're in a store that sells multiple egg types where the descriptor would come into play. A fetus is not human until it breathes, eats and poos like a human.

Gerry1of1
Male, 50-59, Western US
 33910 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:39:03 AM
An egg is not a chicken.


It's not? Then why is it called a 'Chicken Egg' ?

KPres
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 309 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 9:11:24 AM
This has nothing to do with abortion. The bill says it would be considered "justifiable homicide" to kill somebody, who, for instance, is trying to stab a pregnant woman in the stomach to kill the baby.

Typical nonsense from a tabloid like Mother Jones, though.

madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 6457 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:42:33 AM
@ revlcal, You should play their game. How about starting a proposition where the citizens of SD get to murder their representatives that continuously waste taxpayer money on this nonsense?

@CJ, You show a depth of ignorance unmatched when you say stupid crap like:
A fetus is a human life, it may be young and not fully developed but it's still a human being.


An egg is not a chicken.

revlcal
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 25 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:36:43 AM
I am a South Dakotan and I do not approve of this. We've taken to the booths about abortion repeatedly, and each time it is kept legal. The 'representatives' who try to shoehorn morality into the backdoor of an amendment are flagrantly thumbing their noses at the democratic process and showing contempt for the will of the people.

Drat this poo, I'm moving to Arizona. They seem more reasonable there.

furryblob
Male, 18-29, Europe
 577 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 8:17:48 AM
Rightwingers at it again.

Volsunga
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1548 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 7:34:38 AM
The human brain does not function at a capacity that suggests consciousness or self-awareness until several months AFTER birth (the mirror test is a good rule of thumb). However this fact does not justify infanticide because the child is not physically dependent on the mother and can be cared for by anybody. Abortion, however, is justified because a woman should not be forced to maintain that physical dependency that cannot be taken by another.
Even if you can't give up things on the moral aspect, you can't ignore the legal aspect as well. Keeping abortion rights legal makes it straightforward for women with situations in which most people agree that abortion is permissible (e.g. rape or health risk to mother). If abortions are made illegal, even with exceptions made for special cases, those special cases will have to go through a great deal of red tape and possibly risk their lives.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2813 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:57:33 AM
@MeGrendel

"If we go by that criteria, it really would be legal to kill many adults, includinig the majority of politicians."

I think we can all get behind this idea. :D

MeGrendel
Male, 40-49, Southern US
 4308 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:37:48 AM
Musuko42-"It stands to reason, then, that when the brain starts to function, the person is alive."

If we go by that criteria, it really would be legal to kill many adults, includinig the majority of politicians.

Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2813 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 6:07:16 AM
@MattPrince

"Musoko"

Why do so many people have a blind spot for spelling my name?

"so you'd argue for abortion up to about 26 weeks."

Perhaps, if someone could show me the science demonstrating that that's when the brain starts to function at a level that suggests consciousness.

"Though you could argue that there is no real "human being" till much later when that higher brain function has absorbed some useful information and a concept of self is developing."

That sounds uncannily like the soul discussion in the corporate meeting room in The Meaning Of Life.

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:20:09 AM
Musoko - so you'd argue for abortion up to about 26 weeks. Though you could argue that there is no real "human being" till much later when that higher brain function has absorbed some useful information and a concept of self is developing.


Musuko42
Male, 18-29, Europe
 2813 Posts
Wednesday, February 16, 2011 5:16:51 AM
@shappy

"im seeing some good ideas here, but we all know nothing is going to happen unless you give those ideas to someone who can do something about it."

I don't think anything needs to be done, at least not here.

According to Wikipedia:

"In 2004, there were 185,415 abortions in England and Wales. 87% of abortions were performed at 12 weeks or less and 1.6% (or 2,914 abortions) occurred after 20 weeks."

"The overwhelming majority of abortions (95% in 2004 for England and Wales) were certified under the statutory ground of risk of injury to the mental or physical health of the pregnant woman."

So the figures suggest that not only are women not aborting for casual reasons (95% aren't, according to the above), but they're also not aborting late: only 1.6% after 20 weeks.

It remains to be seen (ie, we need to ask the scientists), when the foetus's higher brain functions activate.

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