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 eskimo9
Male, 18-29, Australia
 710 Posts
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Monday, November 08, 2010 2:53:10 AM
He (or his publicist, if they had them back then) was so eloquent. 140-odd years later we came up with Bushisms on YouTube.
Where are the good old charismatic politicians with their moustaches, monocles, and drinking habits? Or even just the ones we would give a damn about. |
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 bryantm3
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
168 Posts
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Monday, November 08, 2010 1:06:38 AM
@tridirk:
just because we don't approve of the way president lincoln handled his entire presidency doesn't mean we are anti-american. if i were anti-american i wouldn't care what the hell he did.
president lincoln's actions were entirely unconstitutional. i gather that you are a republican, given your disapproval of obama. did you know that before the civil war, the south wanted free trade with great britain instead of trading with factories up north because the prices were better? this is a republican talking point these days and this is what the south was fighting for. the slavery issue was an entirely different topic and wasn't even the role of the civil war until lincoln used a publicity stunt to point the moral finger at the south.
the south seceded because the republicans promised what for the north? higher tariffs to protect northern industries. |
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bryantm3
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
168 Posts
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Monday, November 08, 2010 1:06:24 AM
instead of using diplomacy, bargaining, mediation or any other reasonable option, HE DECLARED WAR ON HIS OWN FUCKING COUNTRY. imagine if prop 19 legalizing marijuana had been passed in california and president obama declared war on california. it's that fucking insane.
so to carry out his insane plan, he decides to declare war on his own country, bypasses congress, jails citizens, newspaper reporters, and elected and appointed federal government officials because they think he's crazy and publicly oppose the war.
lincoln then gets most of the way through the war, which the south was winning, and then the battle of gettysburg happens. thousands of men lose their lives for his cause, and he delivers a little sonnet and walks away. to put it in relative compari |
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bryantm3
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
168 Posts
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Monday, November 08, 2010 1:06:14 AM
then, to encourage a dismayed union army, he then issues the emancipation proclamation, a piece of publicity that served no purpose and freed no slaves (slaves were still in the white house until the 13th amendment was passed, and the document had no legal standing). the emancipation proclamation was written as if the issue was slavery all along, invoking the philosophy of "G-d's on our side". when they finally won the war, hundreds of thousands of men had been killed— more than any other war the US has fought in. and the south lay completely destroyed, with the only people who had any sense fleeing to the north to seek better opportunities. the south then turned into an ass-backwards racist bunch of rednecks with no industry, no history (whole cities, books, schoolhouses, all destroyed), where there had been at least some semblance of civilization beforehand. afterwards, the slaves that had been freed faced arguably worse treatment until congress got off its ass a hund |
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 tridirk
Male, 50-59, Western US
312 Posts
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Monday, November 08, 2010 12:13:47 AM
Great words for then, today, and tomorrow.
It's sad that our friends from other countries are so blinded by their anti-american dislike, jealousy, and propaganda that they disrespect an American hero and icon.
Worse yet, that even Americans don't see the wisdom born from strife and all the death. All because they like to be provocative or are blinded by their political views. (Yes Lincoln was Republican)....
His life reminds me of a quote I read, "Hard times or adversity are said to build character, when actually hard times and adversity reveal true character".
His was revealed in what was accomplished. We aren't perfect and never claimed to be. But we are a good, decent, and caring country.
Thanks Mr. Lincoln.... thanks.
and No... President Obama was never so succinct, eloquent, or truthful. At least not yet. |
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 Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:12:35 PM
And finally, @Inter, sorry for stealing your points! But I have to say the one area in which I think his effort to keep the Northern and Southern factions united turned-out to be extraordinarily fortuitous for our nation (though, as mentioned above, would have been entirely unnecessary had Northern states not conspired against the South’s right to freely trade internationally), is that involving the danger of English and French forces lining the areas around our borders to the North and South (respectively) and posing an obvious danger to a divided country. Shout-out to Tsar Alexander II for having our back on that one. |
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Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:12:17 PM
@Crakr, I am familiar with some of those alternative options for slave-reconciliation. I believe some of these to have been an extension of the "Back to Africa" movement, expounded as early as 1811 by Paul Cuffee, a black man himself.
You're right about the possibility of a full fledged Civil Rights movement having had the opportunity to come to fruition at this time. An awesome Glenn Beck Special explored the significant leaps being taken by members of the black American community around this time - without the help of whitey. (Starts at about 2:00)
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Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:12:02 PM
Shutup bob, I'm trying to rant! |
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 SvampeBob
Male, 18-29, Europe
3088 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:06:10 PM
HOLY poo that's boring as hell |
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Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:05:02 PM
@M_Archer, thanks for the detailed response. I'd say something might have slipped your mind in the list of objectionable acts on the part of Lincoln, President, to include the suspending of Habeus Corpus - not only on the part of war-protesters, but the Supreme Court Justice whom he threw in jail for blocking his war action as unconstitutional.
I’d say in this department he fell a bit short when it came to ‘upholding the constitution,’ as you stated (because secession was not specifically barred by it – though the predatory taxation which was waged against the south prior to the war certainly would have been frowned upon.)
He did, however, make for an expedited post-war reconciliation effort by limiting the percentage of citizens required by each state to pledge their loyalty to the union to 10%, rather than the 100% or other exorbitant number demanded by the greater Republican party line.
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 Nidonemo
Male, 18-29, Western US
9216 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 11:04:22 PM
"If my history teachers never taught me it, then it's not worth knowing. Therefore it also must have not affected us too greatly. "
Is your school curriculum regulated like ours is? They may not have been allowed to say or teach certain things. |
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bryantm3
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
168 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 10:05:52 PM
lincoln was a racist and a tyrant. he wrote this pissant poem on the pooter the night before, didn't take the time to write a real speech and everyone knew it and hated it at the time. then he got shot and now he's some kind of martyr for justice or something. martin luther king was a martyr, gandhi was a martyr, lincoln was just an non-nice individual in the right place at the wrong time.
many of us seem to lay aside the tragedies that occured during the civil war, in favor of seeing lincoln as this G-dlike legendary figure that we should all aspire to be. i can't believe how history has twisted this man's actions into something to be admired. |
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 SarahofBorg
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
3529 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:49:33 PM
I have nothing against the address, but the video is way too artsy for me. It feels like it's trying far too hard. |
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 M_Archer
Male, 18-29, Canada
529 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:44:54 PM
Sorry for the double post; stupid character limit.
Lincoln was not perfect; he was a human being just like the rest of us, but the only thing he did which was objectionable was push conscription through congress. Even then, he gave the option for drafted men to buy themselves out of the army. This doesn't make it right, but it's a hell of a lot better than what other presidents did. The Union draft sucked anyway. They couldn't get a lot of people to agree and the vast majority of the Army were volunteer regiments.
He also was about to give the slave states special privileges if they stopped whining. I disagree with this; he should have just told them to shut up, but I think he handled the situation better than I ever could. |
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M_Archer
Male, 18-29, Canada
529 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:38:48 PM
@Suicism: Yes...but you really have to look at this through the eyes of a nineteenth century politician. Back then, it would've been too radical at the time to admit that you think blacks and whites are equal; the same way it would be too radical for a president to say they don't believe in god. Everyone was racist then.
Lincoln didn't believe that the President of the United States had the power to abolish an entire industry (a point with which I agree), so he figured the best way to get rid of slavery would be to outlaw it in all new territories, so the free market would get rid of it. The Emancipation Proclamation was an extreme measure during war to weaken the rebels; this means that loyalist slave states got to keep their slaves. Lincoln didn't free the slaves, the thirteen amendment did that and that was the will of Congress.
The reason Lincoln deserves our respect is because he upheld the Constitution and kept the country together under the worst circumstances |
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 the_windy
Female, 18-29, Canada
1569 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 7:30:32 PM
"You magnitude of fail is troubling. Read the wikipedia article on 'Canada in the American Civil War'"
If my history teachers never taught me it, then it's not worth knowing. Therefore it also must have not affected us too greatly.
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 CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
14374 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:50:10 PM
Suicism: Most people don't realize this, But Lincoln's solution for reconstruction was to offer slave families land in Haiti, Liberia, Or ship them back to Africa for free. He knew the southern democrats would continue to harass, lynch, and oppress them otherwise. Johnson, His Vice-President, Was one such southern democrat and he lead this country into a hundred years of 'Jim Crow' and racism. It's a damn shame, Civil rights should've taken place back then instead of the 1960's, Perhaps we wouldn't have many of the problems we have today. |
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 Maromi
Female, 18-29, Southern US
1101 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:47:56 PM
Could only take 35 seconds of that guys voice. I'll stick to reading it. |
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 SilverThread
Male, 30-39, Western US
3360 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:32:14 PM
That was a beautiful speech. I wonder how many cynical bastards did nothing but decry the fallibility of the speaker rather than reveling in the message. |
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 Kaagan
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
1320 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:13:39 PM
now thats a president |
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 Inter237
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
2449 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:07:15 PM
Really wish we could have heard him speak. Suicism you stole much of what I was going to say! But good points nonetheless. It was all for the union and that is why he was such a great president. |
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Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
3534 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:34:11 PM
Here's what Lincoln ALSO said, during his 4th debate with Stephen Douglas:
"I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Even after war broke out:
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is NOT either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it."
The emancipation proclamation was a piece of propaganda largely designed to reinvigorate support for the war on the part of northerners - and in the process, a successful circumvention of the constitutional process of issuing law.
There are no heroes.
Great animation though! |
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 Lblaxplaya20
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
425 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:01:14 PM
@madest
Well how else am I going to hang my tire swings, remember Jesus Christs death, or scare little children into thinking I'm a ghost? Really, if I can't do those simple everyday tasks without being called racist, then I don't know what this world has come to. |
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 madest
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
6407 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 4:45:28 PM
Especially when everything I do around a minority is "racist".
---------------
Perhaps you shouldn't be hanging nooses, burning crosses and dancing around in sheets. Other than that you're probably not racist unless you think you might be. |
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Lblaxplaya20
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
425 Posts
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Sunday, November 07, 2010 4:41:48 PM
@m_archer
It's quite alright. We've all been there. |
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