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Taxes = Slavery Says Alabama Christian Leader

Hits: 15245 | Rating: (2.6) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:37:14 PM
their employees are bound by contract

Had to stop you there. Why are they bound by their contracts?

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:36:42 PM
[quote"> You might counter with homeless shelters and hospitals set up as charities, but those were almost always funded by religion which was funded by taxes. So that doesn't work in your "ideal" society either.[/quote">

Just so you know, charities are more efficient than state welfare. Charities have to compete for the customer (donor), state welfare does not.
How to help the poor.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:35:01 PM
Many people would not have shoes because they couldn't afford them, or they would have to improvise their own. This too is born out by history.
Likewise, people would provide mercenaries (the closest you can get to police without government), fire fighters, schools, etc...to the minority who could afford to pay highly for them. Everyone else can go die in a ditch. I've already given you a historical example of how a private firefighting service works - Crassus.


They’re not that expensive. Even starving people in Africa have some cloths. Not to mention they would have more money if they were not taxed and if they were allow to compete. Which they have a hard time doing because of barriers to entry. Everyone can afford these this because of how easy it is to get a job in a free market. Prices will go down and down until only the most efficient businesses remain.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:34:28 PM
“August 08, 2010 7:58:04 PM”
Again, you’re not presenting an argument. It’s the equivalent of a Christian using the bible as an argument. Don’t bring up history that can be seen as incomplete, make a logical argument.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:33:33 PM
Again, that runs contrary to all of history. Under your system, what you get is even poorer people working for even richer people. Or dying, because of course there wouldn't be any health and safety laws either.

You have an idealised image that has been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Consider, for example, the Peasant's Revolt in England in 1381.


Your constant turning to history is the equivalent of a Christian using the bible as an argument. Counter what I have to say with your prediction on how it can go wrong instead of using history that the state made you believe. (remember the same business has a monopoly on school education. Don’t you think if you had a monopoly on education you would advertise to yourself?) Besides, the Peasants wanted a reduced tax rate and not the abolishment of taxation.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:32:53 PM
Slavery was extremely profitable for them.

Many slaves didn’t run away because it was actually an improvement. They were allowed some capacity for ownership which increased their productive which met there was more for the Romans to tax. That’s how Rome became an empire.


AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:31:26 PM
Even more easily than you can find them now, because there wouldn't be any police or any law other than that enforced by whoever has enough power to do so.

Police are quite cheap and they would be cheaper and more effective if police agencies had to compete for our money. So it would be harder for robbers.

You could avoid being robbed by being too dangerous, i.e. by being more powerful and having a reputation for violence. In that case, they'd go rob someone else instead.

No, you just need a gun and a good protection agency covering you. Not to mention, robbing someone will ruin any businesses reputation.

Robbery is only unprofitable if it is effectively countered.

For the most part, it is. Even right now. (despite the fact we have a monopoly on protection) The fear of getting shot or ruin their reputation is enough to stop most people from robbing others.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Monday, August 09, 2010 1:30:24 PM
What makes you think that there would be any for-profit courts that didn't take bribes? The whole point is profit and bribes are profitable

Because the ones that take brides will have a damaged reputation. Bribes are not profitable in the long run.

Besides, in a free market whoever gets to choose the court would of course be inclined to choose one they could bribe. What would be the point otherwise?

Both parties would have to choose the same court.

And I'm arguing that pure capitalism is, like pure communism, unworkable in the real world. Both are lovely systems if everyone in the society is a lovely person. Both fail utterly with real people.

No one has to be lovely in a free market. It’s just that if you’re pleasant to others your customers are likely to come back.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 8:11:55 PM
The Space Merchants and The Merchant's War describe a perfect free market society. It's very ugly.


Never heard of them. Do describe it.



The society is run by a few transnational businesses that deliberately addict people to their products (why wouldn't you without any laws - an addicted market is a continuously profitable market) and use a combination of addiction and indentured servitude to get effectively free labour - their employees are bound by contract and spend their wages on paying the business that employs them for food, housing, utilities and the products they're addicted to. Only the elite have money and freedom, and even the mid-level elite can fall into addiction, lose their job and become one of the masses.

It's profitable, sustainable and very realistic.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 8:05:19 PM
If the government provided all the shoes, then we lived in anarchy, would there be no shoes in the world?


Many people would not have shoes because they couldn't afford them, or they would have to improvise their own. This too is born out by history.

Likewise, people would provide mercenaries (the closest you can get to police without government), fire fighters, schools, etc...to the minority who could afford to pay highly for them. Everyone else can go die in a ditch. I've already given you a historical example of how a private firefighting service works - Crassus.

You might counter with homeless shelters and hospitals set up as charities, but those were almost always funded by religion which was funded by taxes. So that doesn't work in your "ideal" society either.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:58:04 PM
For another historical example of what happens in reality without centrally imposed laws, consider the problem of outlaws in medieval England.

In towns and cities, there was law and order imposed by the authorities, paid for from taxes.

Outside them, there was very little of that. As a result, the country swarmed with robbers outside the law. Travel was inadvisable other than in force. Gangs of robbers formed under whoever could seize power.

When I have been talking about what would happen, I haven't just been making it up. I'm going on what has happened wherever and whenever there hasn't been a government that could impose law.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:53:14 PM
[with a high minimum wage] Only the rich would be able to pay their employees that much money so all the poor people end up working for the super rich.

[without any minimum wage] Yes, wages will be low, but the prices that those wages produce fall lower than the wage. So it’s better. A high minimum wage only helps the rich.



Again, that runs contrary to all of history. Under your system, what you get is even poorer people working for even richer people. Or dying, because of course there wouldn't be any health and safety laws either.

You have an idealised image that has been repeatedly shown to be wrong. Consider, for example, the Peasant's Revolt in England in 1381.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:48:15 PM
As I have said before, robbery is not profitable and neither are slaves. Slaves require large amounts of resources to control. In the South, many slaves ran away but where bought back because of subsided agencies by the government. If it wasn’t for them the slave owners would have to bear the full cost of catching runaways.


The mid to late Roman republic and the Roman empire were utterly dependent on slave labour and they didn't have the advantage of modern technology (which makes it far harder for a runaway slave to successfully escape or hide after escaping). Slavery was extremely profitable for them. Indentured servitude has also been extremely profitable wherever it hasn't been outlawed.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:44:22 PM
This is like the fourth time I’m telling you this. Robbery is not profitable. Where do you find all this crazy people to go into others house and steal from them?


Even more easily than you can find them now, because there wouldn't be any police or any law other than that enforced by whoever has enough power to do so.

You could avoid being robbed by being too dangerous, i.e. by being more powerful and having a reputation for violence. In that case, they'd go rob someone else instead.

Robbery is only unprofitable if it is effectively countered.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:40:44 PM
I’m describing capitalism, not communism.


And I'm arguing that pure capitalism is, like pure communism, unworkable in the real world. Both are lovely systems if everyone in the society is a lovely person. Both fail utterly with real people.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 10534 Posts
Sunday, August 08, 2010 7:39:00 PM
What makes you think that courts that get bribed will gain legitimacy and in turn, publish rulings that affects someone's reputation?


What makes you think that there would be any for-profit courts that didn't take bribes? The whole point is profit and bribes are profitable.

Besides, in a free market whoever gets to choose the court would of course be inclined to choose one they could bribe. What would be the point otherwise?

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Saturday, August 07, 2010 7:25:41 AM
@dontcare91
Say good bye to schools, fire fighters, police, homeless centers, and basically everything that protects him.

If the government provided all the shoes, then we lived in anarchy, would there be no shoes in the world?

dontcare91
Male, 13-17, Western US
 65 Posts
Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:21:31 AM
Say good bye to schools, fire fighters, police, homeless centers, and basically everything that protects him.

drating idiots.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:25:41 PM
@Angillion
At least the court cases would be dealt with quickly under such a system. It doesn't take long to determine which side has offered the better bribe.

What makes you think that courts that get bribed will gain legitimacy and in turn, publish rulings that affects someone's reputation?

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:22:05 PM
@Angillion
The same place they've always got it from, of course. The people in the land under their control and the resources they can exploit and sell from that land.

This is like the fourth time I’m telling you this. Robbery is not profitable. Where do you find all this crazy people to go into others house and steal from them? The state can because most of its income from people like you who think the only option is to force others into buying from the same protection monopoly.

You don't need one, no, but you will have one.

Your ideas are very much like communism. Very nice in a purely hypothetical way and possibly workable in a society inhabited only by saintly people, but an absolute nightmare in reality.


I’m describing capitalism, not communism. I would refute your argument, but you haven’t made one in this comment. You just made a claim even using evidence or reasoning.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:19:49 PM
@Angillion
In a completely lawless society, the most effective ways to profit are theft and, for the really big money, an addicted market. Using slaves and/or indentured servants for your workforce is also effective.

As I have said before, robbery is not profitable and neither are slaves. Slaves require large amounts of resources to control. In the South, many slaves ran away but where bought back because of subsided agencies by the government. If it wasn’t for them the slave owners would have to bear the full cost of catching runaways.

The Space Merchants and The Merchant's War describe a perfect free market society. It's very ugly.

Never heard of them. Do describe it.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:18:27 PM
@Angillion
Rubbish. Contributing to society is rarely very profitable and generally is so only because of laws

Jim buys a coke for a dollar. This is called trade. Jim values the coke more than the dollar and the store owner values the dollar more than coke and both parties profit. Why would you need a rule enforced by some violent monopoly to profit from trade? In all actually the state makes it harder for people like you and me. Take minimum wage for example. Let’s say the minimum wage is $100 per hour. Only the rich would be able to pay their employees that much money so all the poor people end up working for the super rich. The best thing to do would be to get rid of the laws so everyone can compete. Yes, wages will be low, but the prices that those wages produce fall lower than the wage. So it’s better. A high minimum wage only helps the rich.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:17:03 PM
@Angillion
It's also not much use with modern weapons technology. You could still be shot as an example of what happens to people who defy the local warlord.

Where is he going to get the money to kill me? You put more money into robbing someone than you get out of it. People rob others because they’re desperate. Where is this warlord going to find all these desperate people to do his bidding? Why would people do his bidding when it’s so much easier to get a job in a pure free market?

Actually, I was thinking of your post, the one I was replying to. The one in which you talked about free market courts upholding the law in your hypothetical society. I think that's ludicrous, but I was arguing within your framework.

Well why wouldn’t they work? They work right now as a monopoly, why wouldn’t it work in the free market? The monopoly can just be bribed. In a free market they have to compete for our legitimacy.

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:13:39 PM
@Angillion
It's worth noting that this philosophy has not worked at any time in recorded history. What makes you think it would work in your hypothetical society?

You haven’t argued against my claim or even gave an example. For starters, If I know someone has $600 dollars worth of stuff in a house and I’m with 60 people, I’m not about to risk my life for ten bucks.

That's a lot of guards. You'd also need to pay for their weapons and other equipment, of course. In essence, you're talking about a small private army.

I’ve gone my whole life with only calling the cops once and they didn’t do anything. I can make the argument that I don’t even need protection. But let’s assume I do. It would only be a few guards to defend my house and I know I would be able to afford it since I only needed in once in my life and with the lifetime of my money I saved by not paying taxes and the fact that the servic

AnarchistGod
Male, 70 & Over, Midwest US
 894 Posts
Friday, August 06, 2010 11:12:36 PM
@Angillion
If you chuck society in the bin and go the warlord route, then you basically just have criminal gangs with more of a free rein.

I fail to see how you came to that conclusion. The exact opposite would happen. People will simply buy protection. Protection agencies that don’t go to war and use peace tactics can save money to it is the peaceful protection agencies that will make a better profit. War is expensive.

They would be supported by taxes in a sense - the money and resources they can take from the area they control by force or threat of force.

As I have said before, robbery is not profitable. Don’t believe me? Trying hiring someone to rob a store. It will be very costly because of the hazardous that are involved.

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