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Immigrant Farm Workers' Challenge: Take Our Jobs

Hits: 19347 | Rating: (2.9) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: Shnard-dog
Page: 1 2 3 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
oceanbeast
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 549 Posts
Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:40:11 AM

here is an interesting video where a real police chief clearly states that "illegal" is incorrect as a term in general.

immigration is not a criminal issue, its a civil issue. police chief

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10238 Posts
Thursday, July 08, 2010 12:10:11 AM
I'm not denying the existence of the Iroquois confederacy. All I'm saying is that the term 'illegal immigrant' in this context is totally misleading at best. Even you pointed out that the natives didn't treat them as illegals (maybe not as we do today) and didn't consider them an enemy until it was too late.


To your second point, yes, such a debate is a waste of time. But the problem with the legal route is that it is such a complex bureaucracy that seems to be more of an iron curtain to keep poor people out who want to better themselves, or on rarer occasions escape the oppressive governments of the nations they come from. Unfortunately a significant portion of Americans see these people as invaders when in reality they aren't. For most of these people the only law they've broken is immigration. They haven't stolen anything, they haven't killed anyone, they simply entered the country illegally.

oceanbeast
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 549 Posts
Wednesday, July 07, 2010 10:05:43 PM
cajun - are you serious? the iroquis league helped found the very government we use today, they already had states and unions, it's well documented

here's a quick article

they showed the pilgrims (invaders in all right) hospitality and even helped them in many ways become the nation we are today.

that is really an argument that means nothing to our current situation though. whats wrong with providing a timeframe where they must register for temporary status, all those who do not apply or are detained will be automatically deported. that gives everyone a fair chance.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10238 Posts
Wednesday, July 07, 2010 8:27:04 PM
Now that I think about the term "invaders" (harsher yes I know) would be more accurate.

Cajun247
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 10238 Posts
Wednesday, July 07, 2010 8:18:58 PM
@oceanbeast
In regards to the "illegals in America" assertion #2, take this with a grain of salt.
By the time the pilgrims or other settlers landed they came from societies where the governments new that world was round and had different entities governing the various portions of land they mapped out. Whereas the natives were only aware what was happening in and around the regions they occupied let alone the entire continent. After some time commerce was established between the natives and the settlers, and not too long after war broke out. Even so, I would find it hard to for the natives to call the settlers "illegal immigrants" even though they were their enemies.

SoundlesHero
Male, 18-29, Western US
 63 Posts
Wednesday, July 07, 2010 5:27:27 PM
My uncle has 100+ acres in Caruthers (near Fresno). Just got back from his farm for fourth of July. There was about 50 of us there to celebrate and some of my cousins and I went out in the fields to pick grapes. Saturday was hot, about 106, so we only lasted about an hour before we gave up, started a bonfire and got drunk sitting around it.

Farm work is hard. Terribly difficult. You can do it, but you have to get used to the conditions. That could take a really long time depending on how out of shape you are. We used to spend summers there as kids and we got used to it. We tried again Sunday, it was cooler, around 101. Lasted about 2 hours, then my uncle told us to start drinking and set of fireworks. He said he wasn't going to pay us since we were trying to work on a national holiday =]

meepmaker
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 6716 Posts
Tuesday, July 06, 2010 12:10:37 PM
I have a job.

DiegoDeFuego
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 241 Posts
Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:57:31 AM
@Oceanbeast

Even if they did raise prices to compensate for raising wages the difference in prices would be nearly unnoticeable. As i said earlier, employees wages are just a tiny piece of a farms expenses.

skullgrin
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 915 Posts
Tuesday, July 06, 2010 7:40:11 AM
oceanbeast, i understand what you are saying but it would not happen in america

Jnic815
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 72 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 10:42:25 PM
Their jobs really aren't that hard i grew up in the country and spent most of my time on our land and my families farms working.. its just part of life down here can I get a hell yeah from some more country boys?

OldOllie
Male, 60-69, Midwest US
 13938 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 10:27:32 PM
This is a silly argument. Farm workers are only a tiny fraction of illegal immigrants, and they aren't the problem. They can have those jobs. Give them legal guest-worker status with reasonable work rules to protect them from being exploited (illegals have no protection whatsoever).

When ICE raided Swift meatpacking plants in 2006, Swift lost more than 9% of its workforce. They were almost immediately replaced by Americans, although they had to raise the hourly wage from $9.55 to $11.50.
Ref.

Here's a simple solution to illegal immigration. Penalize employers for hiring illegals: 1st offense, $25,000 per worker; 2nd offense, $50,000 per worker; 3rd offense $100,000 per worker, and we force the company into Chapter 7 liquidation. Same deal for individuals hiring illegal maids or gardeners except for a 3rd offense, you lose your house.

oceanbeast
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 549 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 9:59:47 PM
"um, no, exactly wrong. like already stated the only difference would be in the farmers personal profits."

this is a scenario that applies in an all good, all honest, ideal world. clearly no corporation is going to cut their own profits to provide their workers better conditions AND keep their prices at the same markup. they wont lose, the consumer or the worker has to lose. a corporation stays in business by watching their bottom line above pretty much anything. you are naive to think they would be willing to take a loss at their own expense.

oceanbeast
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 549 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 9:56:47 PM
yanging - 1. makes no sense. has no bearing in the argument.

2. really? because im pretty sure the Iroquois league was already around, and the founding fathers took their idea of seperate states united under one nation to form our own government. if there was no law against murder would it still be wrong? yes.

the early settlers came here escaping oppression, looking for a new world where they had better opportunities, sound familiar?

3.that's not even anywhere near an ad hominem fallacy. kinda feel like you just wanted to use a "big word" without actually knowing its meaning.


thebandit
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 364 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 9:48:46 PM
i worked hard to be born in america

skullgrin
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 915 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 9:29:12 PM
"Um, yes, exactly right."

um, no, exactly wrong. like already stated the only difference would be in the farmers personal profits. It's not like these farmers cant afford to pay a proper wage, they just choose not to. Think walmart. If they paid their employees above minimum wage and gave them full medical coveage along with a matched 401k plan the products in the store would not go up.

shappy
Male, 18-29, Canada
 758 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 7:36:21 PM
@yangying it was a joke, im guessing

kitkat84
Female, 18-29, Western US
 12 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 7:19:18 PM
Also my mom works for a chicken farm as the office manager. she takes care of the finances too. She told me her boss who owns the company employs illegals because they are so cheap and have no rights. meanwhile he's literally got millions in his personal savings account pure profit from illegal cash transactions. So don't tell me he can't afford legal workers, He just enjoys the money too much to care who he employs.

kitkat84
Female, 18-29, Western US
 12 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 7:15:20 PM
DiegodeFuego is right on the money LOL no pun intended.

yanging
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 172 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 6:58:54 PM
"wasn't America founded by illegal immigrants anyway?"

This argument is invalid for a few reasons:

1) You assume that because something has been done some way before that it was done correctly. Wrong.

2) The immigrants that founded America were not illegal, as there was no formal government established that was equipped with rules regarding the immigration of different peoples.

3) It is an Ad Hominen argument.

DiegoDeFuego
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 241 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 6:56:09 PM
"America relies on cheap illegals in order to produce food at the volume and prices that we want."

I'm guessing you've never worked in agriculture and have no idea what you're talking about. The farmers i work for farm 20,000 acres of land and employ less than 200 hundred people. The cost of employees is just a drop in the bucket compared to pesticides, fertilizer and fuel. Fertlizer is cheap compared to pesticides, and it still costs $500 a ton. You put on 200+ pounds to the acre twice a year at the very least. If you doubled or tripled the wages of the people working on a farm it would affect next to nothing except the farmers might make just a tiny bit less money.

There are plenty of people who would work these jobs, yet farms hire illegal immigrants, not because they need to, but because like almost everyone with money, they want more and more money.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 24967 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 6:26:30 PM
"America relies on cheap illegals in order to produce food at the volume and prices that we want."
"um no"

Um, yes, exactly right.
I think mass agriculture is ONE thing that cannot be 'sent overseas' like industry, manufacturing, assembly...
The point is, if costs went up (paying living wages, for one example) then WE would end up paying for it sooner or later.

skullgrin
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 915 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 6:12:59 PM
"America relies on cheap illegals in order to produce food at the volume and prices that we want."

um no

handys003
Male, 50-59, Western US
 2402 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 5:39:23 PM
No poo. Grapes of Wrath part dos!

DickenMcHunt
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 1140 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 4:58:49 PM
Not neccesarily. If the pay was higher tat would mean that fewer people would be employed in order to maintain profitability, which would mean these people would have to work more and harder and ultimately production would go down, driving the cost of produce up- forcing manufacturers and grocers to mark-up prices even further, which would mean the end of the "Dollar Menu" and the entire concept behind the American Industrial Farming system.

America relies on cheap illegals in order to produce food at the volume and prices that we want.

oceanbeast
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 549 Posts
Monday, July 05, 2010 4:58:39 PM
they obviously cant leverage any pay increase since all the farmer's have to do is turn them in and they are gone.

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