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Just Another Typical Redneck Pick-Up Truck [Pic]

Hits: 43354 | Rating: (2.9) | Category: News & Politics | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
Brassbull
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1608 Posts
Monday, April 26, 2010 1:05:48 PM
You're right Baal, I just found a quote from him shortly after the attack saying it was done in retribution for civilian casualties in Lebanon and Palestine. At the same time Osama believes that our entire way of life is something to be opposed, attacked, and replaced. That view has a strong religious basis and seems to be evolving to become a central concept for radical islamics who direct their aggression towards the US.

I was seeing more red than reason in your argument that people are not aware of how political his motivation was because lately there have been a lot of videos being censored simply for being critical of Islam. I get the same impression from most muslims that I get from most christians; that there is a need to rationalize anything negative about their religion or deny any valid connection between their religion and a negative event. I let that bleed into this discussion and for that I apologize.

Suicism
Male, 18-29, Western US
 3672 Posts
Sunday, April 25, 2010 5:10:17 AM
@ Pandabear21

A religion of Peace "Commanded" to Terrorize!

Who'da thunk it?

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:30:14 AM
Sorry, finally Brass:

"Don't treat radicals passively"

Who. The. drat. Has been arguing for treating radicals passively? (Other than Crakr, who suggests no violence should ever occur unless under the banner of the USA in which case yay, it must be justified, but otherwise could never be, even in self defense).

Take Egypt as an example and their actions against the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood offshoot groups. Executions, mass imprisonments, etc.

Terrorism is something the Middle East has been dealing with LONG before the US started pointing fingers. Dealing with, and doing so more effectively than the Americans have, more harshly than the Americans have, and generally, prior to 9/11 with much condemnation by the rest of the world for "strong arm tactics".

The difference is, the Middle East knows more clearly who they should be pointing guns at.

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:13:10 AM
Brassbull:
4) "The theme of radical Islam..."

Bwhahahahaha. Theme.

In Iraq alone, there were at least 11 groups fighting the US. Most considered radical Islamist, with themes ranging from religious (Invading Muslim lands bad), to political (invading Arab lands bad), to personal (dead family members, dead friends), to personal political religious (Muqtada al-Sadr) who gets his support NOT from the collective of religious people (who tend to lean towards Ali Sistani, a "competitor" of sorts) but from the politically motivated, anti-occupation groups.

Theme is an extreme overstatement.

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Thursday, April 22, 2010 3:04:17 AM
drat it Crakr. Just drat it.
America has killed everyone ever.
Also, Nazis. They're also trying to bring about a Cthulic Armageddon.

Do I win whatever game you're playing? You're continuously restating lies without even defending them at this stage.

I'm not going to just repeat old posts of mine, to respond to repeats of yours, I have already dealt with fairly thoroughly. You will find references, links, stats, evidence, and personal experience.

New points raised:
"Lots of countries spend a lot on their military"
1) Developing nations building a military.
2) 41% of Military Expenditure worldwide, is you. (25% of world GDP is you).

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Thursday, April 22, 2010 2:54:30 AM
Brassbull, your statements about Osama only makes sense with a completely revised sequence of events.

You are suggesting that the sequence of events are:
9/11.
Silence for 3 years.
Statement of goals.

The sequence of events were:
Years of stating goals (which you are now saying don't count, fine).
9/11.
US DECLARATION OF WAR PRIOR TO KNOWING THE CULPRITS.
STATEMENT OF DENIAL FROM THE TALIBAN.
DECLARATION OF WAR ON TALIBAN IF THEY DON'T GIVE UP OSAMA.
DECLARATION OF INNOCENCE BY OSAMA.
American Invasion.
Running and hiding with Dialysis machine strapped to his back.
Etc etc etc.

Where in that sequence does "announce your demands" come in? They were trying for 2 years to distance themselves from the event to prevent invasion, capture, etc.

Do you agree at least that there is no place in the above sequence for "We didn't do it, but we'll do it again unless..."

mamba
Male, 18-29, Europe
 618 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 11:48:57 AM
I could also say that
everything i need to know about Christianity i learnt from the last about 100 years of KKK activity.

But im not that STUPID

Brassbull
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1608 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:12:34 AM
Neglecting to give a fresh announcements of intent paints Osama as an inept statesmen, who was sloppy and neglectful in planning the attacks, and we all know this is not the case.

Again, the video Tjspot linked clearly shows a group of radical muslims, spread across the globe but with the same purpose and goal, which is to erradicate all religions that are not Islam and replace all governments not subject to Sharia law. They do not see a problem with lying and deceiving to acquire this goal so all material from them must be treated with extreme suspicion.

Even in the unlikely event that this was not true, I don't think anyone can afford to take that chance and treat the radicals passively.

Brassbull
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1608 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:59:59 AM
"what took Osama 3 years to come out with this message?" 3 Years from which point? He has been saying it from 1990, the year after troops were there.


First off, thanks for taking the time so answer.

I refuse to believe that with all the planning and preparation that went into the 9/11 attacks that Osama wouldn't give an explanation, even if he had done this on previous occassions, because

1) If one has a political goal it must be constantly re-stated in order to be achieved.

2) Considering the seriousness and scale of the attacks demanded one, to not give one would be insulting and counter-productive to the cause.

3)sending this message would prevent the US government, or the american public for that matter, to make up their own reason which would do nothing to further the cause.

4) The theme of radical Islam is to impose their religion, law, and culture on the rest of the world.


robosnitz
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 2752 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 6:50:01 AM
BRAAAAAVO! I want that for my truck!

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16950 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:42:41 AM
Yes, We have a well funded military as do most nations. So what ?

There have been 'phenomenal' numbers of deaths due to war worldwide. It pales in comparison to the genocides that have taken place in the name of nazism, communism, and islam.

America doesn't just enter wars for the hell of it, We resisted joining in WW1, We didn't enter WW2 until we were attacked, We assisted democratic allies during the cold war. We bring aid and relief to refugees around the world. Even though Saddam was a sick son-of-a-bitch, We didn't remove him during the first gulf war. It was only after we were attacked on 9/11 did America take out Saddam and remove the Taliban from power.

"We love death and they love life, That is why we will win." - Osama Bin Laden

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:46:59 AM
Still Brass (Sorry for the avalanche of posts):

So basically, it can be very complex.

Assuming certain factors, you can create scenarios where one, some or all go to heaven, or hell, based on information we do not have.

However, I slightly sidestepped your actual point I think.

If it is political, could they still go to heaven? Potentially, yes.

Everyone:
You may also want to revise the use of the word Jihad.

Everything from Gandhi to the women's liberation movement is termed a "Jihad" in modern Arabic.

You'll find a fairly solid translation is simply "Struggle". It can be personal, internal (struggle to be a better person), all the way up to outright holy war in defense of Muslims.

Crakr:
Self defence reference: [2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:23:58 AM
Finally Brass again:

You do have one question which is... complex.

Do Terrorists go to heaven?

As a Muslim, I technically can't answer that. I personally am not allowed to say to someone, or about someone that they are going to hell. Ever.

Furthermore, I don't technically know. Personally, I want them to go to Hell. However, Islam isn't a belief OR an acts system. It includes an aspect of intention.

It could be argued that they go to heaven on some intention, however it is also true that ignoring the rules of war purposely would probably negate that.

I don't know if they were (as some terrorists are) kidnapped and brainwashed from a young age, being fed selected passages, purposely being kept from the rules of war.

I DO know that at least one of the hijackers was supposedly mentally handicapped, and people who don't have the capacity to make decisions aren't punished for them.

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:15:38 AM
Crakr still:
"America is not a bloodthirsty nation, Despite what it's critics say."

You are:
The largest (best funded) military.
Have a phenomenal number of deaths attributed to you.
Are one of the strongest supporters of your military.
Have entered more wars than almost anyone else.

YET, I agree with you. You know, from experience, how people view your country from the inside. The stats, are technically all against you. You lose on hundreds of possible metrics by which bloodthirst could reasonably be measured.

What you don't understand, is that our facts are better, even after twisting and weasel wording, and somehow you point to them and call us bloodthirsty based on that.

"We are not bloodthirsty" - Fine.
"You are bloodthirsty" - STILL Fine.
"You are, and we're not" - Somewhere along the line, you've got a double standard.

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 1:09:12 AM
Crakr:
"Why are there rules of war"
Because we are allowed to defend ourselves.

You cannot state that America is not bloodthirsty, and defend every act they put forward with justifications, if you as a Christian, do not believe you should be fighting any wars, ever, under any circumstances, be they in offense, or defense of yourself or others.

Self defense is explicitly stated in the Quran, and elsewhere in the theology, as well as the limitations (Stop if they ask for peace, and cease attacking you. Don't attack civilians. Don't use poison. Don't destroy crops and livestock. Etc.)

Furthermore:
1) Whilst I always maintain on this site that Christianity is generally peaceful, the context for your quote is not simply "Don't fight".

"If someone tries to hit you, make him use his holy hand. He won't, because he won't do something sinful with his holy hand, and it'll teach him a lesson".

Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Wednesday, April 21, 2010 12:52:58 AM
Sigh, I really don't have time for this, suffice to say, mistakes:

Brass:
"Islam does not make a distinction between matters of religion and matters of state". Wrong. Our separation of Church and State is inbuilt, and different, not non existent.

"what took Osama 3 years to come out with this message?" 3 Years from which point? He has been saying it from 1990, the year after troops were there.

"Wouldn't X make it a holy war". Sure, I guess, but then X always makes it a holy war, in which case you elevate many more wars to holy wars. Which is silly.

"Defending people of the same worldview" = "Holy war". You're giving me a hell of a lot of ammo for Atheistic Holy wars here.

NightHack
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 204 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:12:11 PM
It is so sad that people equate entire cultures with a terrible blemish. I have never met a muslim who wasn't a good person. Sure, they're out there - but in my own travels I have only met very good people who happened to also be muslim. I have met some pretty nasty people too, and believe it or not... they come from all sorts of different backgrounds.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16950 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 8:01:34 PM
....Hitler was Catholic.


Maria Schicklgruber was Adolph Hitler's paternal grandmother, She was catholic. But Alois, His father was considered 'illegitimate' and it's possible that Adolph's Grandfather was Jewish.
It's not definitive.

The Story:

Maria was working as a household cook in the town of Graz. Her employers were a Jewish family named Frankenberger, who had a 19-year-old son. The son was Alois's father and Hitler's grandfather.

There is no proof of this coupling however.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16950 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:50:27 PM
Everyone who believes in God is stupid.


You young sir, Have a lot to learn yet. Belief in God is empowering and uplifting.

..bearded wizard..


Really ? Like Dumbledore ? Just because there a few renaissance paintings depicting him like that doesn't mean that is how he looks. In fact, The bible says the light from him is so bright that we could not look upon him with our eyes.

Please loose your ignorance and prejudice about religious people, Ok?

FaLa620
Male, 30-39, Eastern US
 80 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:34:06 PM
@Suicism - have you actually read the Qu'ran? Do you know anything about what Islam teaches? If you're honestly curious, I've got a Qu'ran sitting on my shelf, I can give you some verses. Oh but wait, someone already did that and it didn't help at all, big surprise.

And you do realize that Islam is made up of Muslims, correct? It's a lot like the debate surrounding the God bumper sticker.



And umm, Nazis are in league with Islam huh? Last time I checked, Hitler was Catholic.

Quik2TheStab
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 665 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:22:42 PM
Everyone who believes in God is stupid.

"God" means Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, or any other form of giant bearded wizard.

Don't deny that that is how most religious people view God.

dragonshadoz
Female, 18-29, Canada
 16276 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 7:20:22 PM
What an ignorant fool.

Brassbull
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1608 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 6:46:34 PM
Lastly, what took Osama 3 years to come out with this message? If the act was political, and they have demands, typically someone would want to make them directly following the terrorist act, especially if you're going to do it in the most horrific way possible. Melting people and then collapsing two buildings on top of them is not something you keep people guessing about.

Oh, and I didn't see the words Palestine or american foreign policy anywhere in the transcript of the videos first released following the 9/11 attacks between Osama, his lieutenants and the unidentified shaykh.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 16950 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 6:32:37 PM
Baalthazaq:

Another thing, Why does the 'Religion of peace' even have such a thing as 'Rules of war' in it's holy book ?

Jesus never preached about war, In fact he was a pacifist, 'Turn the other cheek'.

Brassbull
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 1608 Posts
Tuesday, April 20, 2010 6:07:09 PM
Baalthazaq

If it is a political rebelion against american foreign policy and the desired expulsion of the Isreali government, then wouldn't the suicide bombers be denied access into heaven because it would then not be Jihad?

If, considering they were acting on the behalf of other muslims and as such their actions are deemed holy, wouldn't they still deem 9/11 as a holy cause and do it in the name of Allah?

What about the bombings after 9/11 in Madrid, London, and Belsan?

As shown in the video Tjspot posted a link to (great video btw), the consistent ideology of these radical groups is to carry out Jihad on all non-muslim nations so how can you expect everyone to neglect this and rely on the statements of a terrorist who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks. As the video also shows, these people see no harm in using any deceptive means necessary.

Islam does not make a distinction between matters of religion and matters of state, so why should

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