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This Doctor Has Some Very Strange Practices [Pic]

Hits: 37283 | Rating: (2.2) | Category: Science | Added by: fancylad
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
JadeEskimo
Female, 18-29, Eastern US
 45 Posts
Sunday, March 07, 2010 6:35:24 PM
Heres some poo to think about

...and what about this?

or this?

A link to a few more links


Ah, a field of study which involves life treatening misdiagnoses and selfish non-nice individuals raking in the money from their test subjects. Sounds like you're in the right field Jaybee. You'll do just fine!

Please, tell me again how much better your medicine practices are...


Supersyko
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 316 Posts
Saturday, March 06, 2010 9:32:14 PM
Iv seen this before, its some kinda japaneese zen thing....i forgot...but i did know it at one point.

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 8:57:28 PM
Science:
Person A observes something. (The sun feels warm)
Person A then comes up with a hypothesis. (The sun is warm.)
Then by way of recorded observation (a thermometer rising when hit by rays of the sun)
Person B then replicates test (by putting a thermometer in the sun observing it rise, and records the observation).
Other people do the same test (and can't disprove that the thermometer gauge rises when put into the sun.) Therefore, the sun is warm.

Am I missing something? (other than the test to see if the reading on thermometers rise with warmer temperatures?)


Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:25:04 PM
Different study

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:08:10 PM
Other Study

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 6:05:53 PM
I'm thinking of it this way. Person A say's "it's hot outside", Person B says, "it's cold outside". Can you prove one way or another who is correct supposing the temperature is 15 degrees Celsius?

Is there a standard measure that says, this particular temperature is cold, or this particular temperature is hot? In a similar way is a particular way of looking at the body or universe correct?

If I feel cold should I wear more clothes? Or should I wait until a study comes out that proves that wearing more clothes makes people feel warmer? Or should I wear more clothes anyway because it makes me feel better and could possibly save my life if I am living in frigid temperatures?

The idea behind the cups is that it draws xue to the area which then draws qi. This in turn promotes circulation of both. These cups are generally used for chronic conditions. There is logic behind why they are used. jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts

Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:42:09 AM
You’re right about 1 thing though. I wouldn’t use TCM even if my life depended on it. Know why? It hasn’t been proven. I’ll stick with western medicine that has been rigourously tested and scientifically shown to work. It’s not perfect, but it’s the best we have that we know to work.
Honestly, and I mean this, go and get a science degree, a medical degree, or any sort of formal qualification so that you might begin to have an idea about what you’re talking about, and then come back and try and convince me again. At the moment it’s like banging my head against a brick wall talking to you, because honestly, you’re so behind the 8 ball it’s not funny.

jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts
Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:42:00 AM
Sigh. We're going around in circles here.
“The only way progress has ever been made in medicine or any other field for that matter, is by going outside of what is considered "standard".”
This is incorrect, and something only an idiot would say.
We've been over the language thing, it's not the obstacle you think it is. Remember though that english is the international language of science. Any scientific research worth its weight, and looking to be taken seriously is put to the international community for review in english.
You're getting caught up with the word 'observe'. Ofcourse scientists use their eyes to see measurements. There is no measurements taken in that article you presented though. None. They simply listed 'improvement' as the doctor or patient saw it. There was no criteria to measure it by.

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Monday, March 01, 2010 6:51:32 PM
The only way progress has ever been made in medicine or any other field for that matter, is by going outside of what is considered "standard".

I stand by reason, including inductive, and analysis as a basis for understanding the answer to life the universe and everything. 42!


Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Monday, March 01, 2010 9:50:09 AM
Those numbers are unicode for Yin yang, qi, wu xing, jin ye.

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Monday, March 01, 2010 9:48:17 AM
Congratulations! One of you is a hypocrite by not requiring evidence to support your own arguments and the other thinks that scientists just magically get numbers without even looking at a device to measure.

Even if I link to research written in Chinese, French or German, you will probably refute it also, so continuing with this is futile. The data and evidence are already there for you find and the explanations for these treatments uses concepts like 阴阳,气,五行,脏腑,津液 etc. You obviously don't want to try to understand these concepts, or the rational behind these treatments.

There are hospitals of Chinese medicine that are saving people's lives, helping people regain the function of their limbs, and relieving people of their ailments. If you're not willing to bet your life on it, then so be it. Don't use TCM even if your life depended on it


nonamewillfi
Male, 13-17, Eastern US
 1407 Posts
Sunday, February 28, 2010 9:09:33 AM
why dont you just find an octopus

jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:20:21 PM
And stop telling us to go do the research ourselves. The onus isn't on us to find support for your idiotic argument.

It's seriously alarming that you think you're in any position to be doling out medical advice when it's so incredible clear to anyone who knows what they're talking about that you have no clue. None. At all. With your current level of knowledge I am actually scared for the people you try and help.

So please, less time with the ouija board, and more time in university.


jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 5:16:11 PM
"Pubmed isn't an obscure medical journal."

Sigh. Pubmed is a database, which you can search to find articles published in an array of journals. Just because it's available through pubmed doesn't change the fact it's a crappy article published in a non respected journal, with no scientific merit. It's like finding a page written by a retarded chimp through google. Just because it's finable through google doesn't make it worth reading. I can't believe you're trying to discuss science and didn't know that.

Angillion is spot on. And no I don't value inductive reasoning as much as I value double blind randomly controlled trials. Not by a long shot. Theres this thing called evidence based medicine (which you would know had you been to medical school), which lists the order of impact of study types. Your 'inductive reasoning' is both observational and descriptive. Completely subjective, and about the worst kind of study you can do.



Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11420 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:42:45 PM
Oh and a theory stands because it hasn't been disproven. So go to a Chinese medicine hospital to collect the data and prove that Chinese medicine doesn't work.

There is no theory. You're talking about a scientific theory, which is a comprehensive explanation that is supported by evidence and can predict outcomes. Using suction to rupture blood vessels in parts of the body in the belief that it can cure diseases is not a theory in that context.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11420 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 4:39:37 PM
jayebee has already rebutted the single pseudo-study you were able to provide.

I'll use your own example to describe the difference between measurement and observation.

Observation: Stands outside and says "I think it's hotter today than about this time yesterday, but not as hot as about this time the day before."

Measurement: Uses a carefully calibrated device that works in a consistent and known way to measure and display the temperature. Records the temperature at the same place at regular intervals over a period of time, noting any other factors that might affect the results (e.g. something casting a shadow over the measuring device).

There's a big difference.

Overall...I'm not willing to bet people's lives on backing unexplained treatment without proper evidence against explained treatment with proper evidence. Belief is not proper evidence - plenty of people believed in balancing the humours, sacrificing a pigeon to the gods, etc.


Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:29:13 AM
Oh and a theory stands because it hasn't been disproven. So go to a Chinese medicine hospital to collect the data and prove that Chinese medicine doesn't work.

Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:17:35 AM
There is no lack of evidence that it works. There's more evidence for it than aspirin. Go find the studies yourself. A lot of research is being done it right now. Just because something is unknown to you, should you encourage people to automatically distrust it and tell people not to use it until there has been research written in English? BTW Pubmed isn't an obscure medical journal.

So how do you measure something? It's still observation. For example the sun rises in the morning changing the temperature on the thermometer. You trying to tell me that scientists don't observe the fluctuations in temperature?

And speaking of the sun do you also not value inductive reasoning? The sun rose yesterday, it rose to day, so chances are it will rise again tomorrow. Chinese medicine worked yesterday, it works today, and chances are it will work tomorrow.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11420 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:23:41 AM
WtF...i mean the comments people

This isn't a harmless topic. Many people's lives are at stake along with the quality of life of many more people.

Do we test medical procedures to see if they work and create new drugs and procedures based on as much understanding as possible about how the human body works? Do we seek to learn more about how the human body works, so we can treat disease more effectively?

Or do we do whatever is currently considered fashionable, especially if it's old, ignoring the lack of knowledge, the lack of any explanation of how it might work and the lack of any evidence that it does work? Use that forever and let actual medicine stagnate?

Why not conduct the appropriate rituals to encourage Minerva to heal a patient? That's also an ancient healing practice.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11420 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 6:55:04 AM
Angilion, you willing to fund more studies?

If it worked, funding wouldn't be a problem. There's a lot of profit in selling whatever alternative "medicine" is fashionable at the time. Those profits could fund studies to test how effective they were. Of course they won't - why test something that's profitable anyway?

So you managed to find an obscure journal in which someone says something works.

I say again:

Show me a properly conducted double-blind trial with a control group that shows toxins being sucked out through the skin by suction. Maybe we can save billions by treating most diseases with household vacuum cleaners.

Such a study would not have to be expensive. Even if it was done on the cheap and was somewhat ropey in its procedures, positive results would attract enough attention.

By the way...do you disagree with the germ theory of disease?


SlappyMcFish
Female, 13-17, Australia
 248 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 3:14:12 AM
WtF...i mean the comments people

jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 12:49:20 AM
haha what a fail article!

Where to begin? The sample size was 53. It claims 'improvement' was better in the chinese medicine group, yet it doesnt define what 'improvement' is anywhere, or how it was measured (note measured, not observed - we've been over this ;)). It doesn't go into the type of statistical analysis used (ie. ANOVA, 2 way ANOVA, t-test, and if so what type of t test was used.)

The guy could basically have gotten his stats from the tea leaves at the bottom of his cup - In fact he probably did.

Such groundbreaking data should probably be in a top journal though right? Well, with a SJR rating (Impact factor) of 0.035 (compared with the 16,204 from the best in the world - Annual Review of Immunology), it's basically not worth the paper it's written on. Honestly, a journal that's the 59'th best in china? Not even in the top 5000 in the world.

Nice try rtard.


jayebee
Male, 18-29, Australia
 26 Posts
Saturday, February 27, 2010 12:03:42 AM
"How do you gather data? Isn't it through observation?"

No, measurements.

The difference is that one is subjective, the other is not. You would know this if you had any idea about science or medicine.


Harkannin
Male, 18-29, Canada
 177 Posts
Friday, February 26, 2010 9:28:15 PM
"Science is based on gathering data and evaluating it using stringent statistical analysis."
How do you gather data? Isn't it through observation?

Angilion, you willing to fund more studies? Anyway, here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19994687?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=3

I would love to have some funding to do some research with a Chinese medicine doctor who saves peoples limbs from diabetic gangrene so they don't have to amputate.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11420 Posts
Friday, February 26, 2010 6:28:29 PM
However, Chinese medicine has stood the test of time an billions of clinical trials.

A person believing something does not constitute a clinical trial.

The four humours theory stood the test of time too, for several millenia. That didn't make it right.

If it didn't work then why would Chairman Mao keep it?

Either he believed it or he kept it because it was more politically useful than banning it.

I feel sad when people automatically distrust a different form of medicine. People are dying because of it.

People are dying because they're not having suction on parts of their body, suction severe enough to rupture blood vessels...I'd really like to see you support that statement.

Show me a properly conducted double-blind trial with a control group that shows toxins being sucked out through the skin by suction. Maybe we can save billions by treating most diseases with household vacuum cleaners.


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