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Christianity Vs. Atheism: What If You're Wrong?

Hits: 20672 | Rating: (3.1) | Category: Science | Added by: davymid
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Next >   Jump to: Bottom    Last Post
krisley
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 524 Posts
Saturday, October 24, 2009 9:18:01 PM
By the time they unlock the mystery of time travel, they have mastered the art of invisibility (Failures of invisibility occur at times, and this is when we catch glimpses of their spacecraft.) They are abducting humans to study for scientific reasons, we are their 'missing link'. The increasing number of ufo spottings recently suggest that more and more of these 'aliens' are choosing to visit our time. Whether this points to a disaster that is about to unfold, or great advances for the human race is debatable. (An alternate cause of their apparent malformations is that in the act of time travel, horrible transformations occur due to the bending of time and space.)

Again, if you've heard of a movie like this, please tell me. I swear that this came to me in the middle of the night sometime.


krisley
Male, 18-29, Midwest US
 524 Posts
Saturday, October 24, 2009 9:13:22 PM
Since this video didn't really answer the question asked, and some people on here were speaking of aliens, I'm going to drop my theory on aliens (My friend says it's off of a movie, but I've never seen said movie so if someone thinks of it please tell me).

One of the big problem scientists have with time travel is, "Why aren't we seeing ourselves from the future right now?" My answer is, we are. Scientists say that the odds of aliens resembling humans at all are remarkably low, due to the whole enormity of the universe thing, so why are alien descriptions mostly humanoid? Aliens are an evolved form of human from the far future. Lack of sunlight, exercise, and likely food that occurs when floating about space nonstop (Earth has presumably exploded by the time these creatures come about) has led to aliens gray, blobby appearance. Their highly advanced medicine is the only thing that keeps them alive. <c>


thinkbig1224
Male, 18-29, Eastern US
 20 Posts
Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:51:56 PM
Well aside from avioding the question entirely, I couldn't even make out what he said before people began cheering.

Overmann
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 3156 Posts
Sunday, October 18, 2009 10:28:02 PM
Another, more recent example of people killing with a religious motive.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:39:55 PM
Your question applies equally well to religion:

What created your god(s)? What existed before them? How could they be created from nothing?

If you answer that your god(s) is/are eternal and therefore weren't created, then surely you must consider the argument that the universe is eternal and therefore wasn't created.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:36:41 PM
"I'm assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe."

*In its current form* A key distinction.

"If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before?"

Something was there before - a singularity. Which is really an "I don't know what it is."

"Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?"

Energy and matter are forms of the same thing, so matter can be made from energy (and vice versa).

The big bang theory isn't an explanation of the origin of the universe. It's an explanation of what happened afterwards. Maybe only a tiny fraction of a second afterwards, but afterwards.

Another answer to your question is that time was created with space, so there is no such thing as before the universe existed.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:09:22 PM
>>Can you find me an example of anyone who follows >>the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the >>Creator?

>I'm not quite sure, but isn't Scientology based >on that?

Do Scientologist identify themselves as proponents of ID?

ID was devised by Christian creationists as a rebranding of Christian creationism when it became clear that their first attempt to corrupt science teaching in schools had failed.

I still think that in theory ID could be another religion, but in practice it's Christianity.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:06:25 PM
Another analogy:

On a fair 6-sided dice, the chance of rolling a 6 10 times in a row is 1 in 60,466,176.

If a fair dice was rolled 3 times a minute, it would probably be about 38 years before 10 consecutive 6's were rolled.

If a person in the dice-rolling room for *only* the 3 minutes 20s that it took for that sequence of 10 6's to occur, they might well see it as spectacularly improbable. If they were a theist, they might well interpret it as divine intervention.

If they ignored all the other rolls of the dice over the decades.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Saturday, October 17, 2009 8:59:29 PM
sTuFFt:

My analogy didn't get my point across, so I'll try again.

The conditions for life seem highly improbable. For the sake of argument, I'll pick a figure of one in a billion star systems.

If a person looks *only* at one star system and it has life in it, they might conclude that it's so unlikely that it proves that the god(s) they believe in exist *because they already believe that*.

If, on the other hand, a person looked at a billion star systems and only one had life in it, that would just be as expected with those odds.

We can only really look at one star system and of course it has life in it - if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to talk about it. So by our very existence we've got an unrepresentative view on life and the universe.


Overmann
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 3156 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 9:50:59 PM
"These mystical atheists you speak of who are always logical, always right, always scientific, and always cite their (always reliable) sources, are a greater imagining on your part than anything theistic God I have ever seen."

I've known some really stupid atheists in my recent lifetime, so this perception you have of me is erroneous and I'm marking it up as an ad hominem and a straw man.


Overmann
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 3156 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 9:41:54 PM
"For you, there is only ever going to be a link when it suits you, even when it is the same style and source as your opponents."

It is not the same style or source. There is no tradition in the news of atheists committing violence against believers with specifically their religion as the motivator. An example of the contrary: The protests against the Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed. The motivation was the perceived insult to Islam (untie the religious connection if you can). How many embassies were burned out? How many protests involving stoning? How many deaths?

Now show me a similar example of atheist protests against religious people for having mocked atheism. Let's see that.


sTuFFt
Male, 13-17, Eastern US
 72 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 9:05:42 PM
Also, I have a question, I'm not using this in any argument or anything, but I'm just curious.


I'm assuming that modern science believes that the Big Bang created the universe. If so, what created the big bang if nothing was there before? Also, we know that matter is neither created or destroyed, only changed into different forms. So how could this Big Bang create matter and turn it into starts and galaxies and planets?


sTuFFt
Male, 13-17, Eastern US
 72 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 8:59:47 PM
"Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you'll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?"

If you want to use lottery as an analogy, you could say that although it is not rigged for a particular person, it was created by someone (in essence, a "god" figure, if you will, just for example) with the intent that somone would win. Hopefully you caught what I meant, I confuse myself sometimes :P

"Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"
I'm not quite sure, but isn't Scientology based on that?


Overmann
Male, 18-29, Southern US
 3156 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 8:56:02 PM
"You pluck out a verse out of context and claim it is the source of all ills in Christian countries."

A verse? As in a bible verse? Please link me to where I have done this. I have no such recollection. Besides, people don't need a Bible to believe in God. That is to say that their beliefs are not necessarily always informed by the bible, which means I don't resort to bible verses when I need to cite examples of misconduct on the part of religious people.

"Simultaneously, if Christians pluck out a verse of good you claim that biblical verses have no impact on any acts any people ever perform."

Again, the Bible doesn't necessarily inform peoples' actions. Sure the Bible has good as it does bad, but as I don't believe morality is derived from the Bible, this means essentially nothing.


sTuFFt
Male, 13-17, Eastern US
 72 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 8:54:31 PM
"Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?"

I'm not quite sure, but isn't Scientology based on that?


MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 4:25:07 AM
As for Lincoln...

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 4:23:22 AM
I don't think the church willing gave up its influence and allowed us freedom of choice. Its more a case of you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time...

MattPrince
Male, 40-49, Europe
 2223 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 4:21:57 AM
Wazpoopin9 : You are confusing religion with government, dude. Most of the time I don't have a problem with the fairly common sense coda embedded within the key religions, its the dratting implementation that usually sucks. Same goes for a governance on pure intellectual principle.

Wazpoppin9
Male, 18-29, Australia
 70 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 4:04:04 AM
atheists, we are truly sorry for the mistakes of the past weve done (ask yourself do we do those things now? and who reformed us?) but please remember that the freedoms you cherish (in which you *can* be like Mr Dawkins here and question the very existence of God)... please seek to know where do the freedoms come from? Not from man, but from God.

Im trying not to cause offence, but what about the amount of godless totalitarian atheistic regimes of the early 20th Century that killed millions... why do you not want to be held accountable for those? Why is it that the very thing that built the freedoms of your land is being thrown away? The very institution that guarantees your choice in either choosing or rejecting God?

And finally, what about the Altruism within Christianity... whether you belive there is a God or not... do not Christians do a trumultous amount of caring of the worlds needy?

Jesus Christ said to love all those including those who hate you... please remember that


Wazpoppin9
Male, 18-29, Australia
 70 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 3:56:08 AM
ok ok ok... so if your an atheist... God bless you... i have no problem with you... i just wish you could see all the good due to Christianity in the world... yes, the Christians have made mistakes in the past, but who was it that reformed? were it people of other faiths, were it people who didnt believe in God, were it foreigners?

no, it was the Christianfolk themsleves, because they saw that what they were doing was not what Jesus wanted them to be doing. (one example i can think of is slavery - abolished by William Wilberforce in British Empire, and Abraham Lincoln in the US -- both due to their deep Christian faith)...


Baalthazaq
Male, 18-29, Asia
 4753 Posts
Friday, October 16, 2009 1:39:43 AM
Maybe you're thinking about this wrong Angillion.

I agree that ID in the US (and much of Europe) revolves around Christianity, but it doesn't need to be that way.

Many ID proponents are also proponents because of their religious beliefs.

This is all in agreement with you I'd say, but maybe what Stufft is arguing is that it doesn't need to be.

I'm sure you could structure and ID hypothesis/theory/argument which revolves around agnosticism, and therefore "ID" as an umbrella term is not Christian.

To give another example. "Communism" is not the same as "Chinese Communism", yet the latter is the only working model currently in practice.

It is far removed from what Marx described.

I think what you seem to be doing here is saying in practice only "X"(Ch.Comm/Ch.ID) works, so that is communism/ID.

What Stufft is saying is "Y"(Comm/ID) is the unadulterated description, so that is.

You're just arguing terms I think.


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:11:44 PM
"Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P"

A logical fallacy.

Not forgetting the fact that no-one is saying the universe was caused by an explosion. The "big bang" of the theory wasn't an explosion.

It is true that a chain of unlikely events has occured to make our existence possible. *If it hadn't, we wouldn't be here talking about how unlikely it is.* We are an unrepresentative sample.

Take a lottery, for example. It is extremely unlikely that you'll win it. Does that mean that each lottery is rigged specifically for each winner, that someone decided that particular person would win?


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:03:42 PM
To address the "but it might be aliens" argument: if you are postulating these aliens as the Creator, you are basically making them gods.

Can you find me an example of anyone who follows the faith of ID who believes that aliens are the Creator?

In fact, how about any follower of ID who does not believe the Creator is the Abrahamic god?


Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11286 Posts
Thursday, October 15, 2009 8:01:39 PM
"If you're trying to say that Intelligent Design is synonomous with Christianity, then you're wrong."

In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn't.

"Intelligent Design is basically an agnostic view on our world."

No, it isn't. Agnosticism is essentially not knowing and not claiming knowledge you can't objectively support. ID is faith in a creator. That is not agnosticism, obviously.

"There are way too many variables in the universe for this all to come out of an explosion."

No-one is claiming that is what happened. Even if they were (and they aren't), you have just made a statement of faith as if it were proven truth. Even if you weren't (and you are), a lack of an explanation is not proof of god.

"The whole point is, just because you believe in intelligent design, it does not neccesarily mean you believe in the Christian God."

In theory, it could be another religion. In practice, it isn't.


sTuFFt
Male, 13-17, Eastern US
 72 Posts
Thursday, October 15, 2009 6:48:03 PM
"Um, wouldn't such a degree of variation actually correspond to an explosive origin?"

Maybe using the term "variable" was a bad choice of word. I meant that there are way to many things that are lined up in this universe to work together to have come from an explosion. If that makes sense... :P


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