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Denmarks Wind Power Will Be Half The Cost [Pic]

Hits: 3341 | Rating: (2.5) | Category: Technology | Added by: drawman61
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CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17310 Posts
Tuesday, August 05, 2014 1:30:59 AM
jops: You've taken a big 'ol drink of the "green" kool aid haven't you?

Solar and wind power are not going to bring about a "coom-bye-ya" energy miracle and utopia. There have been many many claims of such, since the 1970's and it's not going to happen unless there are several great leaps in technology, that we have yet to make.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Monday, August 04, 2014 5:23:28 PM
its the same thing.


And there's some more. Reducing loss of efficiency is not the same as keeping peak efficiency.

You're talking about theoretical maximums and technology that doesn't even exist yet. That's not something we can afford to gamble human civilisation on. We need to get it working first, then use it.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Monday, August 04, 2014 5:20:52 PM
what you seem to leave out is that above a certain height, the wind does not stop.


Now you're adding in something else that can't be done yet.

High altitude wind power can't be done yet. I've read about several plans to use it, including one brilliantly simple plan to use kites. Attach a kite to a big reel of cable, put a dynamo on the cable and angle the kite to catch the wind. Up it goes, pulling the cable, turning the reel and thus running the dynamo. When it's all the way out, tilt the kite and it drifts back down. An electric motor reels the cable back in slowly, which uses less power than was generated on the way out.

But it doesn't work yet and nor do any of the other plans for high altitude wind power.

Yes, renewables have the potential to be used for a lot of generating capacity, even all of it. But potential is not reality. Not yet.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 633 Posts
Monday, August 04, 2014 8:40:49 AM
@angelon -
" It reduces the loss of efficiency."
its the same thing. yes it does cost to maintain but its cheaper than coal production with the added benefit of it never being depleted. coal is a finite resource meaning as it gets low the price goes up. on the other hand turbines/batteries get more efficient/cheaper.
the problem is people like you who try to convince people of "rationing" or how its impractical. what you seem to leave out is that above a certain height, the wind does not stop. that a maintenance plan consists of just one guy one a month cleaning it out. or that after the initial costs are recouped, the energy produced is near free.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Monday, August 04, 2014 7:21:33 AM
Ang, you talk and talk and talk about how impractical it is at every level yet this article is another example of yet another country proving how wrong you are.


No, it isn't.

It's another example of how it's possible to massage figures and ignore any that are too inconvenient in order to fit a desired conclusion.

You can even go as far as moving the reliable controllable generation to another country to hide it more easily, but you can't remove the need for it. Not unless you can store huge amounts of electricity in a practical way.

Sleepyhallow
Male, 50-59, Western US
 1912 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 11:22:31 PM
Ang, you talk and talk and talk about how impractical it is at every level yet this article is another example of yet another country proving how wrong you are.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 9:02:27 PM
batteries store power for later use(the same for solar). depending on size/amount, it could last indefinitely.


Well, that statement conclusively proves that you don't understand the issue.

Batteries are inadequate by entire orders of magnitude in terms of both capacity and cost even if it was possible to make enough of them, which is why they're only used on a very small scale.

The only existing technology that can store (indirectly) enough electricity is pumped hydro and that's wildly impractical and inefficient in almost all situations. You need one lake above another lake and a hydro station in between. You pump water uphill to convert electricity to potential energy and let it run downhill to convert PE to electricity. Devastating to the local environment, very expensive and very wasteful, but it's the only existing way to do it.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:54:56 PM
regular maintenance keeps them at peak efficiency


No, it doesn't. It reduces the loss of efficiency. At a cost, of course, but less cost than not maintaining them properly.

and the "back-up generator" idea is a joke.


Only to people who don't understand why it's necessary. Do you like electricity rationing and frequent power cuts? Do you think other people do, including all the businesses that rely on electricity (i.e. virtually every business)?

Of course, you could partially hide it by buying electricity from nearby countries that generate it by burning fossil fuels. That's what Germany is doing. But that doesn't stop it. It just lets you hide it from voters more easily.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 633 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:51:58 PM
dracula -
batteries store power for later use(the same for solar). depending on size/amount, it could last indefinitely.

Angilion
Male, 40-49, Europe
 11737 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:49:00 PM
...but the costs of the consumer will not fall.

They've actually risen in Germany.



That's because the total costs are much higher. To get a lower figure, things have to be ignored that can't be ignored in reality.

The key thing that needs to exist is efficient bulk electricity storage. That would make renewables generally viable (though not necessarily cheaper than fossil fuels) by reducing the problems of lack of control and reliability.

jops360
Male, 30-39, Midwest US
 633 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 8:49:00 PM
5kats and crakrjak get their data from big oil. regular maintenance keeps them at peak efficiency and the "back-up generator" idea is a joke. green energy hurts oil companies grip on society and they spend crap loads of money making sure we hate it.

CrakrJak
Male, 40-49, Midwest US
 17310 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 7:25:35 PM
They can claim anything, that doesn't mean it will happen.

llaa
Male, 30-39, Western US
 1127 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 4:48:36 PM
I can see it being cheaper while the wind blows. Saves oil and coal burning for when the wind stops.

Better batteries would be nice to store the wind energy, but hey the reduction of fuel use is a good thing. Just not so good for the British and USA oil/world brokers.

5Cats
Male, 50-59, Canada
 26619 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 4:35:44 PM
@AntEconomist & @Draculya: Also the projection of 25 years at 100% efficiency.
- They don't last the predicted time, especially the ones at sea.
- After 10-12 years they lose about 20% capacity.

And especially the fact that every KW of 'wind power' also needs a back-up generator on standby, why isn't THAT cost added too?

Denmark is a TINY place with LOTS of places to put windmills, and even they can't make it work?

CreamK
Male, 40-49, Europe
 1222 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 4:35:03 PM
"It will wreck our economy"

Mikeoxsbiggg
Male, 30-39, Canada
 1264 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 2:55:40 PM
Sorry Earth, there's profit to be had.

Draculya
Male, 40-49, Asia
 12724 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 12:23:57 PM
This does not take into account the merit order of dispatch, nor the fossil fuels (mostly expensive gas turbines and diesel) that need to be on standby to balance the load when the wind doesn't blow.

AntEconomist
Male, 40-49, Eastern US
 263 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 11:54:01 AM
I'd like for this to be true, but I've seen far too many claims like this that either (a) are based on peak, not average, wind power generation, or (b) cite only operation costs, excluding construction, or (c) deduct subsidies from costs.

Never have I seen stats that correctly account for all three of these things yet also show wind to be cheaper than fossil fuels.

madduck
Female, 50-59, Europe
 6113 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 11:46:48 AM
Good- if the stupid Nimbys would stop blocking it here..

Thjoass
Male, 18-29, Europe
 52 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 10:43:04 AM
Winds of change... sorry had to be said

auburnjunky
Male, 30-39, Southern US
 10184 Posts
Sunday, August 03, 2014 10:26:38 AM
...but the costs of the consumer will not fall.

They've actually risen in Germany.

This is the problem. MAKE IT AFFORDABLE TO THE CONSUMER!

drawman61
Male, 50-59, Europe
 6270 Posts
Friday, August 01, 2014 6:12:31 AM
Link: Denmarks Wind Power Will Be Half The Cost [Pic] [Rate Link] - ... Oof fossil fuels


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