Thursday, October 14, 2010 10:16:17 AM
Since 1985 there have been 17 convictions for child molestation, and 70+ out of court settlements for people involved with the catholic church, represented BY the catholic church. Numbers for how many children/people have been effected are extremely difficult to accurately depict based on factors that include: Time, Fear/Emotion/Distress/Embarrassment, Location, Mental blocks, etc...
If the Catholic Church did NOT stand by these people it could be removed from the chain of responsibility. If the Catholic Church did not try to OFFICIALLY HIDE the fact that these events were occurring, it could be removed from the chain of responsibility. If they had not pulled accused members of the church into Papal jurisdiction in order to circumvent law and prevent legal action, they could remove themselves from the chain of responsibility.
But they didn't and for of that: The person that did it, their ministry AND the "The Church" as a whole are ALL responsible.
"...saying the church isn't ...good ...is like saying education isn`t ...good because many educators ...committed the same crime."
We don`t say the education system is bad (for THAT reason,) we say that the teacher is bad. If the school, however covered up what the teacher did, or circumvented international law to prevent the prosecution of that teacher, or simply transferred that teacher to another department... then yes, the SCHOOL would be bad. And if that decision came from an body that controlled all schools nations wide (which there isn`t) then the school system would be bad, as a whole. This is the chain of accountability and blame.
The difference is that the schools fire these people and the law prosecutes these people. Additionally the abuse in schools is not nearly as widespread nor has it enjoyed such longevity.
If a man breaks into a suburban home, ties up a mother, a father and a child. Tortures them, toys with with them and ultimately murders each slowly in front of the other that is bad. If he is a member of his church, volunteers his time to help the needy, donates thousands of dollars to the poor, holds fundraisers and does LOADS of other good stuff; that is good. Is this man a good man, or a bad man? (BTK Killer, FYI)
The fact that the Catholic Church DOES do good does not negate the bad that they do. Their is no atonement that erases the mark of evil only that which forgives its presence. But like all criminals they have the opportunity rehabilitate... but they haven't and they continue to be criminal. For that reason the BAD still taints the GOOD. They must STOP the bad before his argument can be considered invalid.
Thursday, October 7, 2010 7:23:21 AM
Most of what Mr Fry says here is true, but the whole premise for his argument was that the Catholic church isn't a source of good in the world. The church does pooloads of good work all over the planet, therfore he`s wrong. Just because it has also been a source of bad, does not mean its not a source of good. If his argument was that it is a source of bad then it would have actually held weight.
Also, saying the church isn`t a source of good because some of its members have committed child abuse is like saying education isn`t a source of good because many educators have also committed the same crime.