You Make The Call, IAB: Was This Murder By Cop Or Was This Shooting Justified?

Submitted by: normalfreak2 10 months ago in News & Politics


"Don't put your hands down for any reason or you will be shot. Now crawl towards me." How is this NOT a no-win scenario?  This is ridiculous

An excerpt from TMZ: Police body cam footage shows the moment a Mesa, AZ police officer gunned down an unarmed man in a hotel hallway -- a shooting where the jury found the officer not guilty of 2nd degree murder.

The 2016 shooting happened in a hotel where police were responding to a report of someone pointing a gun out a window. Philip Brailsford was one of the responding officers, and in this video you see and hear the cops barking out commands to a man, Daniel Shaver, and woman the moment they walk out of their room.

While attempting to take Shaver into custody ... Brailsford fired his AR-15 five times, shooting and killing the 26-year-old. Brailsford, who is no longer on the force, was on trial for 2nd degree murder and reckless manslaughter -- until the jury returned not guilty verdicts Thursday on both counts.
Mark Geragos represented Shaver's family and described the shooting as "an execution, pure and simple. The justice system miserably failed Daniel and his family."
This footage was critical in the trial, and was released hours after the verdict. In it, you see Shaver on his knees, begging cops not to shoot him. After struggling to follow some of Brailsford's directions ... he starts crawling toward the officers as commanded. 

Brailsford testified he opened fire because it appeared Shaver was reaching for a weapon. And this is interesting, though not admitted in the case -- Brailsford's AR-15 rifle had the words "You're fucked" inscribed on the side of it. The judge did not allow that to be entered as evidence, saying it was too prejudicial.

There are 123 comments:
Male 777
This is clearly murder. SWAT showed up and murdered someone without ANY reports of a crime being committed.
2
Reply
Male 724
Murder. I will never care when cops are killed anymore...they deserve the hate they generate. Shoot back America, it's your only hope.

3
Reply
Male 3
Oh that is murder, pure and simple. Power corrupts...absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's the circle of life, or what goes around.  Cops are scared because from being trained to expect the worse possible scenario they lose the ability of rational thought. The GTA styled training simulators are brain washing decent people into Nazi kill bots. The entire legal system is past the point of concern of justice. It is now another "fortune 500"company in which the only way it can continue to operate, is by generating income. Cops are Getting between 50 to 80 thousand bucks a year...THEIR ROOKIE YEAR !!! Then the raises are guaranteed. And what with the intensive training they go through, a few weeks of military style mind cleaning, Plus even though they make the same or more as a rookie attorney... the knowledge of the actual law isn't important. In fact it is frowned upon. Cops like these are generating billions of dollars for the most corrupt , and powerful organised gang in history. I need to stop before I get a visit from the law.
4
Reply
Male 2,686
This hole thing stinks to high heaven. So many questions about the hole procedure. Why make them come to them they were prone and to me could have been taken and hand cuffed. Why did they seam to feel that just yelling down a hall would be feasible, Why did they not try to contact them on the phone, did not even have a way to enter the room (no key card or breaching tool.) When they walked out the door it looked like they had no Idea what was going on. The hole delivery and attitude of the cops just made it worse. If these cops would have been better at there jobs this guy would be alive today. I find it hard to believe that the cop got off with out any kind of conviction. What went on in that court room and jury room I will never understand. Hopefully the cop will never be a police man again.
5
Reply
Male 4,018
This whole not admitting facts as they may be 'prejudicial', flies directly in the face of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4
Reply
Male 83
Police training in the US is a mess...Vancouver Canada once had the worst heroine drug problem, per capita, in North America...I have never seen or heard of a Vancouver police officer shooting an unarmed man just because he has lowered his arms.  People who think this cop shooting was justified should recall the incident with that white nurse who was handcuffed for no reason..innocent or not, humans react when under pressure and police need to be trained to account for this. 
4
Reply
1
He was dead the moment he reached for his pants. Cop did was he was trained to do.
3
Reply
Male 6
victor_zamora yeah, and that training needs to be adjusted.
2
Reply
Male 5,522
I'm surprised they didn't shoot the door keycard too for resisting...
4
Reply
Male 68
Hmmmm he was a police officer in a public role, but yet had personalised his work equipment by adding 'you're fucked' on the side. Great example.

Will he really never forgive himself? Or will he have tallied up another 'bad guy' on his scoreboard?
4
Reply
Male 5,522
ImaginaryN my thoughts exactly.

This is not policing...this is military thinking adding a "You're Fucked" tag to your "standard issued weapon".


Reminds me of this, which was inspired by "tagging" in Vietnam (ADIOS):


This doesn't stand for "peace office"...this stands for something else...

4
Reply
Male 1,839
you are asking us to make a comment on an "unbiased" video titled "the execution of Daniel Shaver"???  Since we have learned that MOST journalists lie to make their poiint, and this videographer is not even a journalist....yeah...we can not make ANY conclusion from that.  

The jury had the evidence available, and made a determination.  the officer is not guilty.  it is as simple as that.  If you don't like that, go live in Venezuela or Cuba, where they get their evidence using cattle prods.
-1
Reply
Male 6
2
Reply
Male 1,062
The situation was badly handled, making the guy crawl was a daft idea. The victim must have been under enormous pressure and in those circumstances who can blame him for slipping up.
5
Reply
Male 3
mrteatime   No axxhole YOU need to move! This is the USA not some back ass 3rd world hole !!!  We have the right to change the "leaders " when they go nut ass trigger happy against the people who are in charge... Read something... Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the Earth....Abraham Lincoln
yOU ARE JUST ANOTHER ONE OF THE SHEEP, hoping for a good job when the Nazi's take over aren't you
0
Reply
Male 1,062
iamdpredator What in the name of fuck are you gibbering on about?
2
Reply
Male 647
mrteatime I think it was sarcasm...I think.
2
Reply
Male 6
iamdpredator ???????   
2
Reply
Male 558
I would say that the officer acted per his training.  They were very clear about what would happen if the commands were not followed.  I would have shot too.  Cops shoot to kill.  Yes, you're fucked if they have to use a weapon.
1
Reply
Male 6
mentott510 so you would have shot an unarmed man crawling on the ground pleading not to be shot?  I am at the point where i believe humanity has left the arena.  so you think a cop has the right to act like a f&^*ing judge jury and executioner, what a moron.
1
Reply
Male 1,124
If a cop has such an inscription on his weapon, shouldn't that have raised some flags at his precinct? I don't believe for a second that there is such a thing as a self policing police. Heroes, huh?
4
Reply
Male 5,522
bearbear01 The Defense wanted to submit it as evidence of the extreme response to the situation, the Judge wouldn't allow it so it was removed from the Jury's view.
2
Reply
Male 1,124
kalron27 I tend to agree with the judge. For the homicide trial, the cop's side could have argued later that the inscription mention was an attack on character and could be counterproductive in the future for the victim's family. I hope that the family sues the precinct. I assume that the precinct did not have a file on record for this cop, and evidently one should have existed. I don't see how can anyone justify having such an inscription and at the same time being mentally fit for duty. 
3
Reply
Male 2,166
Murder by cop! And fuck Texas.
3
Reply
Male 4,380
My take is that there were bad commands given. If anything, the fault should be given to the commanding officer, not the officer who shot him. The suspect didn't help matters, though, either.

Anyone else notice that they were trying to open room 500, and not 502, like they were shouting?
2
Reply
Male 84
Why is the pig "no longer in the force"?!
1
Reply
Male 714
Yeah, we don't need trigger happy assholes like him on the police force.
4
Reply
Male 9,474
Okay after thinking about it more, I could see how it could not be murder. 

I don't see how it's not manslaughter at the very least.  Why is the Citizen the one that has to "know" how to understand how to respond to being shouted at and threaten?  The guy was VISIBLY and audibly shaken.  The dude was begging for his life.  Why MAKE HIM MOVE?  they had him with his arms out legs crossed.  Why not go over and subdue him?  I don't understand the point of the commands and being confrontational.  To me it's a giant overreaction of our overly militarized police forces.

I believe given the militarization of our domestic police forces is a MAJOR problem.  These situations are completely avoidable but as everyone here can see and hopefully agree how can you expect some random joe schmo who didn't realize he was doing anything wrong, begging for his life, clearly panicking couldn't think straight in a situation like this?  Why is that so hard to believe?
4
Reply
Male 5,522
normalfreak2 The militarization is a good point, people have said for years that this type of training does not deescalate any situation, rather it creates a higher statistic for death in the case of the suspect.  Just look at the tactics deployed in the footage, pure military.  A well trained "Police" professional would have handled this entire situation differently.
3
Reply
Male 1,634
normalfreak2 Well, one reason could be they could not see inside the room from their position.  They needed to get him far enough away from the door to the room that they would see anyone coming out first.  If they attempted to go to him, someone in the room could have the gun and shoot them.  They did have a report of armed persons in the room and did not know how many people were in the room.
3
Reply
Male 777
waldo863 "They did have a report of armed persons in the room and did not know how many people were in the room." - Being an armed person in a room is perfectly legal. Multiple armed people in a room is also legal. They had a report of someone doing something perfectly legal.
2
Reply
Male 213
johncourage The report was someone holding a gun out of a window.
2
Reply
Male 777
bubba5658 "The report was someone holding a gun out of a window." - That's not illegal. So, the swat came in a shot a guy and preceded to raid a room without a warrant because there was a report of something that was not illegal going on. That makes me feel so much safer.
1
Reply
Male 9,474
waldo863 At some point we have to decide if this is how we want our local police force to act.  In my opinion, we need to draw clear lines of separation between law enforcement and Military response.  When have we EVER had terrorist running around causing problems town to town raping and pillaging.  The police response here wasn't measured, it was a pure Military response, why?   I don't want to live in a country where this is acceptable.

They signed up to be police officers, they signed up knowing they could die working.  One of the reasons I beg to have police paid and trained better.  We aren't in a war zone, we don't need to utilize war zone tactics.  How can you or anyone expect any random citizen to KNOW how to react in a situation like this?  This is so completely out of the norm it's silly.  I can't remember anytime I was stopped and confronted like this....This doesn't happen in America regularly, and I sure as shit hope it never does.
3
Reply
Male 1,634
normalfreak2 they had reports of people with a gun pointing out the window.  With the number of mass shootings we've had recently i believe they responded with appropriate force.  It sucks, but dude was told if he feltvlike he was gonna fall, to fall on his face.  He had already put his hands on the ground.  They were already giving him tons of leeway.  It looked like he was reaching for a weapon.
2
Reply
Male 777
waldo863 Oh really, were shots fired? Was someone specific even threatened? What they had were reports of someone doing something completely legal and they sent SWAT in guns drawn.
2
Reply
Male 6
waldo863 if you think it looked like a guy in baggy shorts and a tight shirt in the position the guy was in looked like he was reaching for a gun you need to get you eyes checked.
1
Reply
Male 9,474
waldo863 Here's a great example of what I'm trying to state.  What's the difference here then what happens in mass shootings?  Do you hear any gunfire prior to the police shooting this guy? Do you see or hear of an active shooter?  

Do you think this action was still justified answering the above two questions?
1
Reply
Male 777
normalfreak2 It appears as though this guy committed no crime and was executed for losing a game of 'Simon Says'.

Not only a failure at all levels of policing but it really seems like the officer in question was trying to create a situation where he felt justified in pulling the trigger.
2
Reply
Male 6
normalfreak2 this guy is a moron, why are you wasting your breath?
2
Reply
Male 5,522
waldo863 With the military tactics deployed in the footage, I'm pretty damn sure there was enough coverage and firepower to deal with anyone still within the room.  In addition, it is these military tactics that cause the fear and confusion in the suspect.  And you can clearly see from the video both suspects are shitting their pants with fear.  While these "cops" are deploying learned tactics, the suspect is confused as to the level of response.  This is way beyond the normal encounter with law enforcement, these "cops" were caring serious firepower and were deploying aggressive tactics with guns drawn way before the situation was accessed.  This is not "Police Work" to determine the legitimacy of the 911 call, this was as if an active shooter was already present.  That is scary...
3
Reply
Male 213
kalron27 And yet the woman followed directions and was cuffed.

-2
Reply
Male 9,474
bubba5658 She actually didn't, she messed up on her way over and they didn't shoot her.
1
Reply
Male 44,932
Why make them crawl? If they're face in the carpet, legs crossed,
hands behind head fingers laced..... walk up to him and cuff him.
4
Reply
Male 1,634
Gerry1of1 See my other responses to people for why that was not really an option for these LEOs at the time.
3
Reply
Male 12,943
12:49 they walk into the video, 16:21 he begins moving, 17:09 he's dead.

This looked like an over-rection by the cop.  This was not suicide by cop.  It looks like he was pulling up his shorts like others already said.
1
Reply
Male 1,634
monkwarrior I mean, yeah, he could have been pulling his pants up, but he also could have been reaching for a weapon.  It's the same motion and with not being able to see his hands and him reaching to the back of his pants, I can see how the mistake could be made.
2
Reply
Male 12,943
waldo863 Its not a mistake, it was an over-reaction that lead to the cop killing the man.
2
Reply
Male 1,634
monkwarrior it was not an overreaction.  Dude looked like je was pulling a gun.  When someone is pulling a gun on you, lethal force is the only appropriate reaction.
0
Reply
Male 12,943
waldo863 that's delusional. especially when there's 4-5 heavily armed and protected police officers there, im sure a warning shot would have worked just as well.  That nation is messed
0
Reply
Male 44,932
Quickly reaching to the waste band where guns are often kept is a provocative move.  

I with cops would learn to shoot one bullet at a time instead of a dozen, but I can't fault the cop.
1
Reply
Male 49
Gerry1of1 I agree with you on both statements.  The cop reacted to the movement and was trained to shoot.  Had the guy had a gun, the cop could have been shot or killed.  Even though I watched the video multiple times, each time, it looked to me like he had something in his hand.  Just because he was a cop, does not make him bad.  I imagine that he will never forgive himself for doing what his training taught him to do.  I am not saying there is not any bad cops who don't care about human life....I just hope they are few and far between. 
0
Reply
Male 6,978
Gerry1of1 If you are at the point of shooting, you are normally trying to kill something.  Shooting ONE bullet, instead of many is typically ineffective if you are trying to kill something.
2
Reply
Male 44,932
daegog I think I didn't make my point clear.
I'd rather cops were trained to shoot to disable, not shoot to kill.
2
Reply
Male 33
Gerry1of1 No one who carries and uses a firearm defensively (including cops) is trained to "shoot to kill."  They are trained to shoot to stop.  They are trained to fire until the threat stops being a threat.  The most effective way to stop the threat is to shoot center mass (middle of the chest) until the threat stops moving.  Shooting to disable is a Hollywood invention and simply not smart.  Shooting someone in the leg still leaves both hands working, shooting an arm still leaves the other hand, and shooting a gun out of someone's hand is 99 44/100 percent fantasy.  Even if a cop were to try a disabling shot, arteries in limbs make a fatal shot a very good potential.  As daegog noted, the risk of a miss also increases, and that means a bullet going unimpeded to an unintended target.  
1
Reply
Male 861
MISafetyman

1) In Germany, you are trained to not shoot if not absolutely necessary. If you could take cover, you may not shoot at all.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffengebrauch_der_Polizei_in_Deutschland

http://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/schiesstraining-bei-der-bayerischen-polizei-kein-wildes.1001.de.html?dram:article_id=394692

Since 1952, 2364 shots were fired and 476 people were killed. (Wikipedia)

2) Shooting into the chest "in order to not hit arteries" is only cynical.

3) daegog, If you are prepared to possibly need to shoot, if you aim at the limbs in the first place, you can shoot there.
3
Reply
Male 213
7eggert I carry. If I have to shoot at a bad guy, it's going to be in the torso and multiple shots. In that, there is no Bang! did I get em? No? bang bang.
0
Reply
Male 861
bubba5658 And if you shoot a possibly-good guy while not in self-defense?
1
Reply
Male 213
7eggert If you ever have the chance, you should participate in one of the video training sessions that the police use with the laser guns. It may not change the way that you think about all of this, but you will definitely get an idea of the choices you have to make. They had reporters do it and it changed their tone on the articles that they wrote.
0
Reply
Male 6,978
Gerry1of1 I don't think that's reasonable personally.  

In that split second, where they have decided to shoot, they are always going to shoot center mass when possible.

Leg shots and the like are always going to be a high percentile miss compared to center mass.
2
Reply
Male 213
daegog Not to mention that you are way more likely to miss a leg and shoot into the next room or an innocent bystander
0
Reply
820
♫ and the land of the free ♪
4
Reply
Male 247
murder plain and simple. this is NOT how authority should behave
4
Reply
Male 2,444
jarred Murder? He reached behind himself towards his waistband. If you were kneeling and were told to crawl forward, why would you have to reach one hand behind yourself?

0
Reply
Male 777
oobaka Why were there guns drawn on him in the first place? There was no crime. There was no report of any actual illegal activity. Perhaps they should have investigated first before shooting innocent people or maybe you're right and we should all keep our papers handing in case we want to go to a hotel or cross county lines?
2
Reply
Male 9,474
oobaka Curious, do you think the random citizen would respond in a way that wasn't provocative in the least with 100% accuracy?  Where's your red line here?  This isn't commonplace, why would you expect anyone to react flawlessly in a situation like this?
2
Reply
Male 247
oobaka  then i suggest you turn up the volume on your speakers. if you LISTEN to the audio, it is quite clear the young man was terrified of the cop with the gun. u think the cop couldnt hear the kid sobbing? 

in my opinion, the situational escalation by the cop was completely unnecessary. (the reason why the shooting happened at all)

ok maybe i back off a bit from murder and go along with manslaughter. but i dont really want to, because this kind of situation wont be avoided in the future until cops like this are taken to task for their actions.


3
Reply
Male 6,978
oobaka You have this notion that people with a weapon pointed at them by a shouting man with seemingly violent intent will think straight, I dunno where you get this idea from.
3
Reply
Male 213
daegog Several years ago, I was pulled over in my car by 7 sheriff cars at around 2am. I immediately pulled over and placed both of my hands out of the drivers window and held them there. I had 7 cops pointing shotguns and pistols at me through every window of my car. One deputy approached my open window and told me to very slowly reach down and turn my engine off. I told him very loudly, "No sir. please handcuff me and you can turn it off. He did and got me out of the car without killing me. They had the wrong person.
0
Reply
Male 2,444
daegog The police were called to investigate a report that someone was pointing a gun out of a window.
So the police are now on edge.
Is it inconceivable that a person who is intent on killing someone would pretend to be scared or even actually scared because they know what they intend to do to the police?
Please officer. Don't shoot me. I'm scared. BANG BANG BANG.
Now, because the officer took a moment to second guess the suspect's intentions, that officer along with his partner are now dead....all because people like you love to sit on their asses while second guessing every shooting with the luxuries of safety and time.
0
Reply
Male 777
oobaka So, the swat responded to a report about a perfectly legal activity going on and decided to raid a room without a warrant and shoot a guy with baggy shorts in the hallway. Perfectly reasonable? All our lives are in danger at any moment, if we fail to win a 'Simon Says' game?
2
Reply
Male 2,444
johncourage 
"perfectly legal activity" - Pointing a gun out a window is perfectly legal? 
"raid a room without a warrant" - That room looked suspiciously like a hallway.

What if that guy had a gun (which the police were warned there was one seen) and the officer gave the guy the benefit of the doubt? You'd end up with a possible dead officer or two.
If the officer only gave the command to keep his hands up once, I'd understand the guy getting confused but the officer commanded him multiple times not to lower his hands and yet he lowered his hands multiple times. He could have been shot several times before he actually did get shot. 

0
Reply
Male 777
oobaka Holding a gun at a window is a perfectly legal action and they were in the hallway because they were raiding a room. At the end of the video they had trouble with the key card, I assume they made it into the room eventually.
2
Reply
Male 6,978
oobaka It Is 100% inconceivable, that the kid, head down on his knees could:

1) reach for a gun in his waist at this back
2) swing the gun forward into firing position
3) raise his head to acquire the target
4) shoot said target BEFORE getting shot

This only happens in the movies. 


1000 out of 1000 times, the cop shoots the kid first.
3
Reply
Male 213
daegog Well that's just bullshit there. The rest of your comments are disavowed.
0
Reply
Male 2,444
daegog So...a person on their knees can't reach behind them? I didn't know that.
A person can't attempt to swing a gun forward while on their knees? 
A person needs to acquire a target before shooting down a hallway?

Because of people like you, another officer may get killed because, according to people like you, no one could ever fire blindly and fatally wound someone...ever...so the officer may wait that extra half second or so and then it's the officer who's laying dead on the floor.
-2
Reply
Male 861
oobaka Try it.
3
Reply
Male 6,978
oobaka As I said, 1000 out of 1000 times, that cop shoots that kid first.  There is no realistic scenario in which that kid shoots the cop first.

The cop could have told that kid to get on his knees, interlace his fingers behind his head, turn around (so his back was to the cop) and continue to move backward in that postition.

And no one dies.

Because of people like you, scared kids ARE killed and cops get away with it.  Nothing theoretical, they just get to kill and go back to work after a sham of a trial.

Not everyone is cut out to be a cop, shooty mcTrigger Finger is one of them.

When you personalize your gun to say "Your fucked", PERHAPS people could infer that you are wanting to gun people down?
4
Reply
Male 5,522
oobaka I disagree with all of this when they simply could have cuffed both of them once they assumed the arrest position with 10 secs of exiting the room and were completely covered by several well armed officers.   In addition, they were called to "investigate" the report, not deployed tactics indicative of an actual active shooter.  It was excessive and resulted in the death of an innocent civilian.
3
Reply
Male 247
oobaka lmao, seriously? that is some fantasy shit right there. u watch too many movies man. u must think every criminal is an oscar level actor! 

what i watched in that video was true terror, and when the two ppl exited the room, you could tell they had NO CLUE they were walking into a hallway with 5 or 6 cops armed to the teeth ready to gun them down

fuck outta here with that apologist shit man

when cops get a call like this why not just have them hit the building with an rpg so no cops are put at risk(sarcasm)
4
Reply
Male 6,978
What a bunch of bullshit.  The kid was fucking panicking 100% (this is not remotely uncommon, when someone has a rifle aimed at you and said he will shoot you)

The cop MADE him panic, he did nothing to enhance the calm of this situation.

The cop should have seen he was not in a good mental state to follow orders.  He he just told him to stay lying flat on the ground and another cop should have just advanced on him and cuffed him right there.

His shorts were falling down, his knees were pulling them down as he crawled forward, he automatically tried to fix them (because its a really normal response).  He had the extreme misfortune of meeting a trigger happy cop and he is dead because of it.

Would you cop apologist be ok if this cop killed your kid for panicking in a similar manner?  Would you think, welp my stupid kid deserved to die for being a pussy?
6
Reply
Male 910
daegog This was an institutional failure. No one was in charge of that situation and it led to the death of a scared innocent person. That person should not have been giving the orders. He was not trained in deescalation and apparently had no intuition or experience. The rest of the video was like a bad movie. They couldn't use a key card, who would allow them to carry loaded weapons?
4
Reply
Male 12,943
daegog i agree this was wrong.
2
Reply
Male 5,522
daegog Good call on the baggy shorts, I noticed that after looking at the pictures and re-watching that scene.

Also, while they say they aren't drunk, it's pretty clear they have been drinking.
2
Reply
Male 1,839
You're not safe around cops I guess.
2
Reply
Male 1,634
marsii Not safe around SOME cops.  If you weren;t safe around ANY cops, you'd see about 1000 stories like this every hour.

Just like any large group, there are always some bad eggs.  This is not representative of ALL cops.
1
Reply
Male 861
waldo863 Unfortunately bad eggs are attracted by a position of power and an alomost-guarantee to not get convicted.
2
Reply
Male 6,978
waldo863 Try to tell that to republicans who want to ban muslims.
3
Reply
Male 213
daegog Was that guy that tried to blow up Times Square Muslim? Then yes.
0
Reply
Female 8,472
It's murder- rather a habit with the police in america. Mostly they like to murder black men- children too. All the time some officers enjoy murdering fellow citizens every other officer becomes complicit. 
5
Reply
Male 777
madduck Statistically, they mostly murder white people, but it isn't a racial issue. It is a lack of actual policing and the misapplication of force, especially in this case where no actual crime was committed.
1
Reply
Female 8,472
johncourage - they do murder more whites than blacks- although disturbingly rather too many black men are killed because they once smoked a joint in school. It's terrible policing, lazy policing, and sadly short of retraining and firing every gun happy moron I doubt things will change. 
2
Reply
Male 5,522
The question raised at the trail was why did they not just cuff them when they had them in the hands behind the head position while fully covered by multiple officers who were heavily armed.  According the a Defense witness, it was unnecessary for them to bark further commands that produced movement on the part of the suspects.  From watching the video, it takes a little over 5 min for them to issue incoherent orders before shooting this man, however he was perfectly secured and in a position to arrest within 10 sec of exiting the hotel room.

I wouldn't call this murder, but definitely manslaughter.
4
Reply
Male 1,634
kalron27 Totally agree with this assessment.  Why when they had superior numbers and guns were they making these people do anything more than freeze and put their hands on their head.  Even making them lay down is a bit excessive IMO, though understand that my be procedure in some places.  Anything beyond that though is clearly excessive.
4
Reply
Male 226
Mark Geragos is representing this guys widow and I have heard alot of his interviews on Adam Carollas podcast. This was truely an execution, the guy was begging for his life prior to being shot. This is a case I am anxiously watching, and if the officer is found not guilty, would personally protest.
3
Reply
Male 5,522
WakeToWood Get out your protest signs...he was acquitted.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa-breaking/2017/12/07/philip-brailsford-verdict-daniel-shaver-killing/927052001/
2
Reply
Male 278
The guy did look like he was reaching for a weapon honestly.

However I think that if the captain there didn't scare the poor man shitless he would have been more able to follow direction.
1
Reply
1,063
That is murder plain and simple, while he was stationary on his knees with his hands in the air, it is safe for the arresting officer to approach the suspect while still keeping him in his sights to proceed to handcuff him. The demands of "crawl towards me" are completely unjustifiable and rediculous. If you suspect someone to have a weapon, you want them to remain still.

Also to be fair, it's completely possible to safely approach both suspects while they were on the ground hands infront  of them palms on the ground with legs crossed. Every single demand after that point was not in anyone's best interest. The officer was probably getting a kick out of controlling them with fear of being shot.

Verdict - fucking retarded police. I feel so sorry for his family. Absolute tragedy, regardless of if he was pointing a gun out a window. 


3
Reply
Male 21,778
layla_wilson The "You're Fucked" inscription on the cop's rifle also shows a lack of maturity -- itchy finger, looking for a reason to use it. I'm not saying the inscription proves the cop was in the wrong, but it doesn't help.
2
Reply
1,063
fancylad indeed, if an armed policeman in the UK had a gun with that inscription, he would be disciplined, taken out of the armed unit and more than likely loose his job all together. 
2
Reply
Female 6,441
Cop has a rifle pointed at me because I'm suspected to have been pointing a gun out of a hotel window and tells me to NOT put my hands down or towards the small of my back AGAIN, and I do it again?  I should fully expect to be shot, sorry.
-1
Reply
Male 861
melcervini You don't even know that, you're just minding your business and suddenly a bunch of gun-crazy shouting men are threatening to kill you.
3
Reply
Male 247
melcervini  pretty disgusting oversimplification there mel
4
Reply
Male 1,634
melcervini  The question here becomes, did he know that's why the cops were there?  They looked pretty shocked when they came out of the room, so I suspect they did not know the officers thought they were armed and dangerous.

I do agree though, when a LEO tells you to do something, you do it.  Once they have you in cuffs and are questioning you, then you can ask a few questions, like "May I have you badge number."  Once you are released, if you feel you were treated improperly, then you can go to their supervisor and report it. 

Under no circumstances should you argue or do anything other than what the LEO says while he has a gun pointed at you.  They would not have a gun pointed at you unless they had some reason to suspect SOMETHING going on.  Whether or not you are involved, they don't know.  They need to protect themselves.  They are on high alert and most are pretty paranoid from my experience.  You do anything that can even remotely seem like you are reaching for a weapon and they are gonna shoot.

I do feel that the way they acted in this video was not correct though.  They should have done things a bit differently.  However, that doesn't matter.  What matters is, the guy did not follow orders.
0
Reply
Male 861
waldo863 You can also report it to the next wall - verbally.
2
Reply
Male 9,474
waldo863 And a citizen is dead because of it, You do realize we have a Judicial system correct?  The cops aren't supposed to be the judge jury and executioners.  

This response would have been justified if there were reports of a shooting in the area, or an active shooter, one where someone reports someone is waving a gun isn't a situation where you go in guns blazing like this.  The response was WAY over the top.  Law enforcement is there to ENFORCE THE LAW.  Not carry out judgement.
2
Reply
820
waldo863 It's pretty fucking sad that random citizens with no training have to be the ones to take care of police who have training. 
3
Reply
Male 1,634
barry9a That's life?  I mean, what else do you expect.  NO ONE is perfect and there are people that will abuse power and you have no way of knowing before hiring someone if they will be the type to abuse power.  Mistakes will be made.  That's why there is a complaint procedure in place.

I mean, if you go to the bank and the teller makes a mistake, is that sad that you as the customer have to point it out when they are trained and you are not?

What about a kid working at a gas station who accidentally hands you the wrong change?  Is it sad that you had to point it out even though he is trained and you are not?

You can apply that same thought process to just about ANY job.  It's part of life.  Everyone is different and everyone can make mistakes and some people are just douchebags.  The position does not matter.
0
Reply
Male 861
waldo863 That's why you need to take responsibility of your people and supervise them.

(I'v seen documentaries about police training, according to that they ARE trying to change that. They even pose a noob next to an "abusive cop" pretending to abuse and hit a suspect, the noob was supposed to stop the senior officer.)
2
Reply
Male 9,474
I mean, if you go to the bank and the teller makes a mistake, is that sad that you as the customer have to point it out when they are trained and you are not?

What about a kid working at a gas station who accidentally hands you the wrong change?  Is it sad that you had to point it out even though he is trained and you are not?

You can apply that same thought process to just about ANY job.  It's part of life.  Everyone is different and everyone can make mistakes and some people are just douchebags.  The position does not matter.

waldo863 

whoa there, are you seriously comparing giving incorrect change and pointing it out,  to someone not obeying an order and being killed because of it?  Really?  Isn't that quite the leap?
1
Reply
Male 1,634
normalfreak2 a job is a job and we are all human.  Mistakes happen.
0
Reply
Male 9,474
waldo863 except in this case someone lost their life.  I think there's quite the chasm here between oops I messed up your change to, you made ONE bad move now you are dead.  

Question, is this the type of society you want to live in?  Where if someone reports they saw someone with a gun waving it, this is the proper response to that?  Mind you, it's merely an accusation from a concerned citizen.  Where did this man give up his Constitutional rights to a trial or privacy to be slaughtered by an agent of the State because of an accusation?
1
Reply
Male 1,634
normalfreak2 He made far more than ONE bad move and he was warned every time he made a bad move if he kept making bad moves they would shoot him.  He then made more bad moves and they warned him again and again and again.

The police are there to protect us.  In order for them to be able to protect us, when they have a suspicion of something going on they need to investigate and we need to obey their orders.  

Yes, that can and does create a temporary loss of freedom.  Lots of things infringe on our freedom.  We are free, not anarchists.
0
Reply
Male 9,474
waldo863 

What your argument is boiling down to is this.  If you are accused, rightly or wrongly, and the cops come out in force and you panic and make a mistake you deserve to be shot dead in the street or a room or your own home on nothing more than a call from a concerned citizen. The cops were just "doing their job" defense is a horrible defense.   


That's all you are saying, do I have this right?


I'd argue it's not the job of the police to come in on situations like this looking to gun someone down.  They sent a military commando unit to deal with a civilian matter.

1
Reply
820
waldo863 "what else do you expect"!? 

You're clearly completely unaware of police behaviour in other western countries. 
3
Reply
Female 6,441
waldo863 I agree that he should have kept the guy on his face and waited for backup.  I'm not a cop so I dont know 'procedure'.
-1
Reply
Male 1,634
melcervini Well, there was plenty of backup there already really.   At the 1:15 mark you see them all standing there talking.  Four other officers in the video there, plus of course the guy with the body cam, and that's just what you see.  So at least 5 officers there already.

However, look at the scene again.  They have a report of armed people in that room.  If there was still someone in the room, with a rifle, by going up to place the kid under arrest, they would have been putting themselves right in the line of fire.  Get the suspects you can see out of the way, then go clear the room.

2
Reply
Male 5,522
waldo863 " If there was still someone in the room, with a rifle, by going up to place the kid under arrest, they would have been putting themselves right in the line of fire."

Not true at all, look how the immediately approach the room once the suspect is shot.  Look how he is standing directly in front of the door while the other offices tried to lackadaisically use the keycard.  There were at least 5 officers present, it would have taken 2 of them to cover and secure the suspects in their initial prone positions while still safely covering the room, especially with the military tactics they are deploying.
1
Reply
Male 21,778
I can't find anything about why the guy was pointing a gun out of a hotel window. Does anyone know? It probably plays some part in why the guy is dead now.
3
Reply
Male 10,002
fancylad According to the articles I have seen, Shaver had a scoped air rifle that he was showing some friends and pointing out the window.  Someone reported 'a guy pointing a rifle' to the front desk, and the cops were called.

Many air rifles cannot be easily differentiated from a high-power rifle. 

This guy was found not-guilt by a jury.  So, as I'm sure they had more evidence than normalfreaks commentary, I'm not sure I can call this 'murder by cop'. 

Could just as easily be called 'suicide by stupidity'.
0
Reply
Male 21,778
megrendel Ah, OK -- I thought maybe it was a domestic situation or someone was drunk. 
2
Reply
Male 9,474
megrendel

Do you find this to be a measured response by the Police?
1
Reply
Male 10,002
normalfreak2 

Do I find it a 'measured response'?  No.

Do I understand that cops are under significantly more threats from people wanting to kill them in response to a false narrative perpetuated by several media and political groups, and as a result tend to be a little jumpier than in the past? Yes.

Did he deserve to be shot? Probably not.

Does 'what you deserve' mean shit in reality? No. 

What is the root cause?  He got drunk. He got stupid. He got dead.   Everything that followed his drunken stupidity is a direct result of his drunk stupidity. 

The jury found him innocent.  But, at the same time, it's probably a good think he is no longer on the force.
3
Reply