What's The Difference Between Islamic And Islamism?

Submitted by: bliznik 6 months ago in News & Politics


As the ostensibly Christian Trump travels around the Middle East and joins a summit with Muslims in the Middle East without being killed, and while Muslim terrorists bomb an Ariana Grande concert as a symbolic attack against "the West," it is useful to note that not all Muslims are the same.

Here is a useful blog that describes the differences between a Muslim and an Islamist. Below is my own summary.

  • Islam: A religion largely codified in the Qur'an.

  • Muslim: A person who believes in Islam.

  • Islamic: An adjective describing that which is associated with Islam.

  • Islamism:  A political ideology that is hostile towards non-Muslims via both violent and peaceful means, and holds as its ideal a homogenous society of Muslim-only people.

  • Islamist: A person who ascribes to Islamism, who could be an extremist terrorist or an evangelical, "peaceful" proponent of Sharia law.

To put these terms in context, ISIS largely comprises both violent and peaceful Islamists, who want to create as many "Muslim-only" societies as possible. Non-Muslims can live in those societies so long as they pay a tax which will temporarily "protect" them from jihadism until a later date, at which point they will be attacked so long as they hold non-Muslim beliefs. ISIS is actively trying to get everyone in the world believe that they speak for all Muslims. Many political leaders and pundits--mostly Republicans and Bill Maher--believe ISIS is speaking the truth, and believe that all Muslims are Islamists.

There are many other Muslims, such as the authors of the Letter to Baghdadi, as well as a great majority of Muslims in 1st world countries such as America, who are Islamic, but are not Islamist. They believe in the words of Suratul Kafiroom, "To you be your religion and to me my religion" (Qur'an 109:1-6). Muslims should leave people who don't believe in their religion alone. They probably believe that people like me are going to hell, but they're fine with allowing me to choose hell on my own.

There is no formal survey out there, but my gut feeling is that the number of Islamists in the world is increasing.

Fundamentalism, xenophobia, and the ideal of homogenous society utopias, as a whole, is disturbingly gaining steam all around the world. While Muslim Indonesian courts jail a Christian politician for "daring" to suggest that the Quran doesn't actually prohibit Muslims from being governed by a non-Muslim, Russian Christian courts jail an aetheist blogger for "daring" to stream himself playing Pokémon Go in a Christian church. Even the liberals are getting in on it with the idea of an utopian bubble of "perfect diversity." With all the talk of safe spaces, it's only a matter of time before colleges start jailing students for even expressing fundamentalist viewpoints! Which is...another form of fascism.

This one of the reasons I really appreciate IAB. It's a place where the ultra-conservative @5Cats and the ultra-liberal @fancylad can coexist. Both annoy me to an extent with their extremism, but both also educate me on their viewpoints and we can all coexist without being banned. 

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

There are 28 comments:
Male 357
If you live in south east Michigan you know some Muslim people. In general they are like most other groups of people, largely decent people easy to get along with and some are shit heads. The violent groups like ISIS as bad as they are are not the problem they ultimately piss off enough countries and get killed. The problem for secular countries is exactly what happened in Lebanon and is happening in Turkey, Muslims have a very high birth rate and when their population is high enough you get a government like Erdoğan's and the country ceases to be secular.  
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Male 40,560
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Male 1,089
How many of you people actually have Muslim friends? I'd like to know if you have any basis for your opinions. 
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Male 1,845
marsii I've got a decent number of Muslim friends that grew up in Indonesia and a few American friends who accepted Islam as they got older, as well as a few friends whose parents came from Iran who used to be Muslim. I grew up Christian but matured into an agnostic.

I don't know any from the Middle East who are "Islamist." So everything I know about them I learned from reading terrorist propaganda and the like or from reading articles that people like 5Cats post.
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Male 4,383
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2P_RJJYjzY
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Male 402
Consider me less informed.  I'm confused by the phrase "peaceful" proponant of sharia law.  I'm not saying that every muslim is a jihadist, but if you read what sharia law states, it is pretty drastic.  Here is a partial list of some questionable, some outright horrific.  Now I am considering the source of this information (http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html) but I also see this information elsewhere.  This website just had the best list.  I understand that not all Catholics adhere 100%, nor do Protestants or Jews.  There seems to be some pretty heavy duty hate here though.  I'm just saying.  @layla_wilson  - I'm assuming you are informed of all of this and are ok with it?  
• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand.
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal".
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
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Male 4,191
dkm458 Just speaking for myself as a non muslim and non christian, I truly hate these lists kind of lists.

They are lines taken 100% out of context and placed in a vaccum.  I promise you that with 5 minutes of google, you can find an equally damning list of biblical scripture.  It's probably easier because more people have read the bible.

Even if a person were to go thru try to answer every question with actual information, im am skeptical that it would change anything.  People who use these lists as some way to damn or belittle islam, very rarely seek true knowledge, if they did, they would read the book itself.

Im no fan of Islam or Christianity, but to pretend one is good and one is bad is pretty silly.  I have read the bible several times and im trying to get thru the quran but its very slow going for me (i just have less time), I can say, without any reservation however, that the MESSIAH in the quran is JESUS Christ.  This is beyond dispute by anyone that has read the quran.

So when i hear people tell me about how evil Jesus is, I just wonder why their effective worship of the same religion is so terrible, but Christianity is just so awesome.
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Male 402
daegog I know I can find an equally damning list of scripture as well.  However, christians don't tend to be carrying out these types of atrocities but we can certainly find examples of the things that I posted happening everywhere around the world.  I'm certainly not saying christianity is awesome either, and I am not pretending that ALL christians are GOOD.  But when I lift my head out of the sand, and look around me, I'm not blind.  I see what's happening.  I see who is doing it.
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Male 40,560
dkm458 Seems reasonable to me.

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Male 41,570
dkm458 Every one of those is completely true, and hundreds of millions of Muslims follow every word of it to the letter. And will force you to follow it too...

Almost all are based entirely on the Laws of the Koran. Obviously some modern ones are not eh? Lolz. And not every Muslim believes every single one... but the majority do, and even if they say they don't? Taqiyya...
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Male 1,845
dkm458 

Oh yah, there are parts of sharia that are downright vehement. I'm saying that some Islamists want sharia law to be implemented not with a coup or with terrorist attacks, but via a political movement, which is far more peaceful than blowing yourself up. It's a more civilized way of implementing sharia laws--some of which are absolutely vile and sexist. 

Different sharia courts also have culled and added laws. So in many Western mosques, most of what you have listed above aren't considered sharia. But that isn't to say that it doesn't exist, and that isn't to say that some sharia laws aren't repulsive. IMO, the sharia courts who follow those particular laws need to go--or at the very least a lot of the laws themselves need to go. Which is why an Islamist who isn't a terrorist can still be a pretty awful human being depending upon the sharia laws he/she supports and the actions he/she takes to enforce them.
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Male 41,570
bliznik Creeping Sharia is a very real problem for the West.

They tried to get Ontario to allow "Sharia Courts" for 'minor issues' like property disputes. Sounds reasonable right? Except divorce is a property dispute, and it would over-rule Canada's legal system in that regard... and a whole lot more! 
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Male 1,845
5cats True. Courts in the US have struck down any decision based on sharia law in the context of family law. Seriously, marriage does not constitute sexual consent anytime, anywhere. 

I'm not sure if it's a "real problem." I haven't really seen it pop up anywhere here other than in family law courts where defendant's lawyers use it as a creative way to justify domestic abuse, and domestic abuse is hardly a Muslim-only problem.
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Male 41,570
bliznik It 'pops up' all the time, but rarely gets coverage, just some back-page box or even ignored entirely. But some civil rights group or another will pick it up and mention it, which is a good thing!
In Canada there's usually one Muslim group or another trying to sneak Sharia in someplace. Usually Ontario. And our schools are more than happy to have Sharia Muslim-friendly things to appease them, while denying the same to Jews or Christians, of course :p

It's a big problem because once it gets started? There's literally no way to stop or reverse it.
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585
dkm458 im sorry but you're copy pasting from someone that has a biased view of Islam :/

i am aware of these issues but you are taking it out of context.

They are all not necessarily sharia law but different countries laws set by their governments. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/shariah-law-the-five-things-every-non-muslim_b_1068569.html
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Male 402
layla_wilson Talk about a biased view?  Huffington? Remain calm, all is well.  No need to look behind this curtain.  I read that article and many others.  The list I provided, which I admitted you needed to consider the source, was the most concise list I could find.  Those are ALL Sharia law, and it just so happens that some of them are "official" laws in some countries.  You are being disingenuous.  Which of those would you like to live under?  Or your daughters?
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585
Sharia law only affects Muslims.

If it is enforced as Government law - then it affects everyone.

I wouldn't live under any.

But I can assure you Muslims are potrayed in such a way - you are being mislead about Islam.

Bow down to your Zionist overlords.
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Male 402
layla_wilson Oh, ok, it only affects muslims.  Nevermind then. 
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Male 4,383
dkm458 I'm pretty sure layla couldn't live under any and would be thrown off of a tall building at the very least.
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585
trimble I lived in Malaysia. Its under sharia law.

But guess what.

Because im not a Muslim.....




It doesn't affect me...



:O

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Male 151
layla_wilson the fact is that Sharia Law is pretty much redundant in the west because most countries already have laws and regulations for everything
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Male 8,198
Fancylad is a hardcore Liberal?  I don't see it bliznik.  I don't doubt he's Liberal leaning but I don't get the impression that he's banging all the Liberal drums all the time.
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Male 1,845
Fancylad is a hardcore Liberal? 

Maybe hardcore liberal was the wrong term to use. He has been posting a lot of rather ridiculous "ZOMG look at how Trump screwed up let's impeach him!!!" posts with titles that are rather misleading when you actually read the content of his posts.

It's almost as if he uses a Jump to Conclusions mat right before he posts anything related to Trump.
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Male 8,198
bliznik Now that I agree with.  


For the record when I think of hardcore Liberals, I think of people like michelangelo signorile,  Arianna huffington, etc  People that will explain away all Liberal wrongs and only focus on the right.
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Male 1,845
normalfreak2 Ah, duly noted. Yah, fancy shouldn't be lumped with them.
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Male 364
One thing to add is the way priorities "adjust" from one Islamist group to another.

For instance, al-Qaeda members were (for most of them) Coran scholars, recruited out of Salafist mosques. Only "true Muslims" were to "defend the faith". A bit of a self-proclaim Templar Knighthood of Islamism. It was tough for converted to join the organization, and the long "initiation path" made it easy for members to be on surveillance agencies radars.

Daech, on the other hand, accepts anyone who considers himself a Muslim. No matter if you speak Arabic or not, if you read the Coran or not, if you were born Muslim or converted later. This makes it very easy for them to recruit losers online. "You live in a poor district in a Western World city, have no job and already spent a few years in jail? That's because the West hates you and all Muslims. Take a car and kill them all". It doesn't matter how religious they are. Most of them are not. It makes them way more dangerous.
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Male 1,845
m3dm3d Oh yes, the situation is far more complex than the simplified interpretation that I posit above. You've got stupid automatons who have been manipulated by those who are more educated and more powerful than they are, and you've got very educated and sophisticated Muslims who are able to use some pretty creative mental gymnastics to justify their use of violence in order to "purge" the world of those who have different beliefs. ...and you've got everyone in between.

I'm just talking a couple of simplified motivations here. The analysis between different types of Muslims can be incredibly time-consuming and involved.
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585
Fantastic post - Hopefully it will be informative for those "less-informed" about Islam :)
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