Trump Didn't Deliver On His Carrier Deal, But No One's Following Up On His False Claim

Submitted by: bliznik 10 months ago in News & Politics
trump-lied-about-carrier-jobs

Carrier's union leader Chuck Jones just wrote an op-ed piece for The Washington Post. It's short, clear, and concise on what did and what didn't happen when Trump claimed he saved 1,300 jobs from moving to a plant in Mexico.

This is how the scoreboard reads: The Carrier plant will stay in Indiana, and 550 people will lose their job. Also, details of this deal are not being disclosed. So who knows how long Carrier has to stay in America, or any other terms that might've been baked into the deal.

Trump could have said that he saved 800 jobs. People still would have been happy. Instead he fabricated a new number. Which is insulting, but OK, politicians lie and screw up numbers all the time. When Carrier's union leader tried to correct Trump, Trump proceeded to personally attack the union leader on Twitter which led to many Trump supporters threatening to physically attack the union leader, his family, and his home. The political games have gotten even uglier and we haven't even gotten started...
There are 49 comments:
Male 1,687
Everyone seams to miss the point its cheaper to out source then do it here, why? The highest corporate taxes in the world may have some thing to do with it. That drives up price of the product and takes money away from pay to your employees. Employees make more money but its eaten up by higher prices. If you drive up the wages at Mc Donalds they will eventually have to raise prices or eliminate positions. (automation) And there are a lot of good paying jobs with out a collage degree. Truck driver, plumber, pipe fitter, auto mechanic,hair dresser these people make good money but it takes years and training to get to the top. Kids are told to go to collage and get a good job but they are not willing to spend the time to get there. Me I'm retired now made my money and retired early at what you ask , Auto mechanics. worked for a Ford dealer ship( after many hit and misses) for 25 years and made enough to quit the rat race. So I know you can make a good living with out collage or just a good living, And work your self to the top, or at least high enough. And if your afraid of automation, find a job that's hard to automate.
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Female 8,058
i'm more amused by seeing how many ways he will make money on this. It it mostly bloody hilarious- but if he refuses to act hard on climate change then the world needs to immediately sanction and block them as they did Cuba. We can manage without.
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Male 2,694
Can we at least wait until he actually IS the president before blaming him for everything? Aww, what the heck am I talking about? I'm on I-AM-BUTTHURT. Forget I said anything.
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Male 44
I agree. I think that people should wait and see what happens. The election is over.
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Male 1,746
I think we did wait, and we did see what happened. (1) Trump exaggerated a number, (2) the union leader called him out on it, (3) Trump attacked the union leader by name on twitter, and (4) the union leader is getting death threats from Trump supporters as a result. The first two are totally fine. It's the last two that I have a problem with...inciting people to attack a union leader for fact-checking claims is a bit ugly.
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Male 44
Carrier told the world about the same thing as Trump said. Maybe, the president elect was quoting what he was told by Carrier about how many of the job that would be saved. It looks as if maybe Carrier ran the numbers and discovered it still needed to relocate some of the jobs south. http://www.snopes.com/carrier-jobs-to-mexico-despite-trump-deal/
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Male 40,772
The story originally said that some jobs would be lost, around 600 -700. How is this 'hidden'? How is this 'not covering the story'? How is this 'didn't deliver'? More DELIBERATE lies being spread about Trump here on IAB, and the usual idiots believing them in spite of all the facts, evidence and common sense. 8 more years of hysteria and fabrications... yay! :-)
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Male 1,746
This has nothing to do with the story. This has nothing to do with any of the news stories. The news stories are mostly factually accurate. I have a problem with Trump's LIES, and then his attack on twitter by individually naming the man who called him out on his lies, which directly leads to death threats on the man, his family, and his home. Fact: Trump lied. Fact: the union leader called him out on his lie. Fact: Trump then sent a tweet condeming the union leader by name. Fact: As a direct result of this publicity, the union leader and his family received death threats. None of these is a lie. None of these reference a news story about 600-700 jobs being lost.
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Male 4,153
Welcome to the new, post-election IAB, I-Am-Butthurt
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Male 44
Thank you for a good laugh. That is funny, I don't care who you are!
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Male 1,739
Arguing with a Trump supporter is like arguing with a tree stump. It won't get you anywhere. They're too blinded by their love for the man as misplaced as it is. What I look forward to is when they realize what a tub of useless shit he is.
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Male 44
oobaka, this is where you are wrong. I would bet that most of his votes came from people who are tired of the same ole crap from the political system. A system that is corrupt with money and power hungry folks that manipulate the population into believing they care about them and their prosperity. No most voters for Trump are not in love with him. I would say some are worried but hopeful. I would have happily voted for "giant meteor" if it was an option. The votes came for Trump because we are on a bad path and have been for a while.
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Male 1,739
Trump is tapping millionaires and billionaires for key positions in his cabinet. He's a billionaire himself. How can the average Trump voter even begin to believe Trump and his flying monkeys can relate with them let alone care about them? You're on a bad path and you've given the wheel to the guy who has no driving experience. Great idea.
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Male 44
oobaka, You made a broad assessment of all "Trump" supporters. In an attempt to broaden your understanding of the situation, I tried to tell you that it was not cut and dry and a blind love for our president elect. Yes Trump is a billionaire, so at least he is not in it for the money and can not be bought. Name calling and acting out will get you no where. I learned this as a child, then I grew up.
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Male 7,943
The root of the story is Management jobs are staying and as I said in the previous thread I posted about this "deal". A 7 million dollar tax break is Corporate welfare. They aren't concerned about their workers in the slightest. Carrier's parent company is a multi billion dollar a year revenue company. They aren't concerned with paying their employees a decent wage, instead those management types get paid millions while the people doing the grunt work get the tablescraps. Our jobs go overseas when we have weak trade deals, non strong union. Government's job should be reigning in the excesses of Capitalism and standing as a guard against the worst of Capitalism. So sick of the Corporate Welfare getting a pass on everything while Poor people welfare always getting shit on by the same people who are getting fucked over by Corporate Welfare.
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Male 4,099
I don't view it as corporate welfare, if Trump had offered the company subsidies, then I think that argument would hold more water. If that had happen then I would agree with you. I also don't know what you mean by Carrier not paying their employees a decent wage, according to Glassdoor most workers make around $75,000 per year, the lowest seems to be around $40,297 per year. 40,297 divided by 52 weeks is $774.94 per week, divided by 40 hours is around $19.37. Nearly $20 per hour isn't a decent wage to you?! What is? The same position at other companies is usually around $9-$12 per hour. I'm sorry but plenty of people are able not only live but thrive on a lot less.
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Male 7,943
Depends on where you live. 40k isn't easy to live off of. It probably is a lot in say Nebraska, or Wyoming, Ok where property prices are weak.
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Male 4,099
Dude, I live in the inner city of Baltimore and 40K is more than most people make here, and yes I can whole-hearty verify that it is easy to live off of. Hell, I lived on my own and helped my parents to live on less then that. What is a decent wage to you if not 40K on the low side?
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: I said in the beginning that "according to Glassdoor most workers make around $75,000 per year, the lowest seems to be around $40,297 per year" and "the same position at other companies is usually around $9-$12 per hour." But it doesn't matter, the point was 40k is easy to live off of. Who is making 40k a year and starving, if they are, I'm betting a mental disorder or drugs are involved. If you want a career that makes 60K or more, then do well in school, gets some scholarships and grants for a degree, and get out there and work for it. An income is based on how valuable you are to a position, it isn't a participation award.
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Male 7,943
@richanddead I do believe in a entry level wage or something like that ot learn. I'm talking about a "career" btw. Whatever that "career" might be. If you are doing the job you are doing for the rest of your life you deserve a livable wage. Call me idealistic, call me whatever. That's just how I see the world.
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: I'm sorry but that's insane, the kind of unemployment that would generate would be catastrophic. Paying $60k a year to entry level worker, with no advanced degree, who would normally be making $9-$12 per hour at another company. Why not just make it an even $100K, you could save even more then. Hell, what about a cool million. I'm sorry dude, but that not just impractical, it's blatantly unrealistic.
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Male 7,943
Decent wage to me is 60k. You have enough to save, live off of, and have some for some extra and you can raise a family with a Parent staying at home.
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Male 1,416
So 1000 overjoyed workers are gushing with praise for Trump, and the mainstream media concentrates on ONE UNION LEADER who's panties are in a bunch?  Which one is "FAKE NEWS" and which story is the truth???  I wonder
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Male 20,917
Both angles have some truth in them. Both have facts that are probably being brushed to the side for their narrative.
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Male 4,099
But he didn't fabricate the number, even in the link in the old post it said people were still going to be laid off, the difference was that 2000 more would have been laid off. In-fact if you read the last post on Trump and Carrier it said 700 jobs would be out sourced (even though the link given said it was only 600), now it is going to be 550. Anyway all of this still needs congressional approval before it can be implemented which will inevitably change the deal as well.
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Male 6,158
As far as Carruier Trump promissed to save 11000 factory workers' jobs but only save 730 management jobs while Carrier still outsorced 15000 jobs, far more that what they said they were going to and still got the tax break.
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Male 6,158
The Trump's new Sec. Of Labor is Puzzder who is well know for being anti- union, anti-wage increase (actually says the minamum wages are already too high) anti Labor and anti worker. He has said more than once that the way to increase the number of jobs is to make everyone part time. Thus doubbeling the job market while reducing wages and expenses on health care and other benifits. He also said that he would like to see all menial labor replaced by automation. So much for worker's rights and fair wages
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Male 4,153
The higher wages go the more menial labor will be replaced by automation.
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Male 20,917
I read just enough about this to chime in about automation. Isn't Carrier's Indiana plant converting to mostly automation? So in a short period of time, those manual factory jobs will be phased out anyway, right?
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Male 4,099
Again it depends on initial cost + upkeep vs. the cost to keep the paid position. If Carrier looses the tax incentives if they fire the people the company might not do it, it all depends the bottom line. The company also has to weigh the fact that 10% of it's business come from the federal government and this could harm that relationship. Also Carrier pays for training for about 7000 employees per year, it wouldn't be unrealistic to think that Carrier might automate some jobs and offer to retrain those workers to perform other tasks or lower new recruitment and move workers to other plants to perform the same job elsewhere. This is why this will all be reviewed by congress, so that the company and the government can hammer out all the fine points.
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Male 7,943
@Trimble what you may or may not understand is that is inevitable. Automation is coming, what's wrong with Unions or employees getting their wages while they can? Absolutely nothing. Employees are always behind, it's in their best interests to get as much as they can now before Automation becomes reality. It's a stupid argument about higher wages will lead to automation, the issue is automation is coming, by settling for less employees are damaging their bargaining power. Company can't afford it now so you keep it that way as long as possible before the inevitable comes.
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: Automation also has a certain price, if a paid position is less than the initial cost + upkeep of the automation then the company will continue to hire people instead of robots. Take the order takers at McDonald's of example, they already have order screens that people could use if the company decided they wanted to automate that position. The reason they don't is because the workers are paid low enough so that McDonald's doesn't have the incentive to automate it. Raise their wage and you won't help those employees, you'll just get them replaced and end up hurting them.
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: Is still think 30k is too high for a mandatory starter wage you'd still create huge amounts of unemployment and inflation. I don't think we should be borrowing money for military spending either, although I think the American public should understand that means more soldiers will die and our interests will be threatened. Yet military spending isn't an "entitlement," and it's not what's pushing our country over the fiscal cliff. What's pushing our country over the fiscal cliff is Social Security and Health Care entitlements. People have to understand that although they've paid into such programs, it was made on fiscally irresponsible political promises. They will inevitably be lowered anyway whether it be by policy or more frighteningly when the market corrects itself. It's not a race to the bottom and the jobs don't leave no matter what. A company isn't going to spend millions to leave if they are going to make less money elsewhere. Their not leaving because they want to explore the world, their leaving because America is becoming economically uncompetitive in comparison to other countries. All countries have a understkilled workforce with no pensions. We all at some point in our lives had a "first job." People don't get skills via apriori knowledge or because they sat in a classroom, they get it through experience. Even Doctors who stay in school into their thirties have to go into residency programs to gain the experience to use what they learned. They get it by having a job available to them and working up the ladder, the way it's always been done. You don't help anyone by raising wages to a point where there are no jobs for them and no opportunities to advance. We also already have tons of federal programs for those that fall on hard times, this isn't a Hobbsian state of nature like you're trying to make it out to be. Workers already have the ability to collectively bargain and workers also have the right to find jobs where they aren't forced to join a union. The business owners also have a right to decided if their business will be open or closed to unions. Companies do share the profits based upon contractual obligations that the employees agree to when they take the job. I'm sorry but fairness has nothing to do with reality, it's an unquantifiable emotional concept, life isn't fair. Absurd wealth gaps wouldn't be curtailed by it, the wealth would just move out to a place you didn't have control over it. You can't just unionize all industries, not even the workers want that.
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Male 7,943
@richanddead I'm not advocating for forcing manufacturers to automate. I'm advocating that workers have the ability to collectively bargain and force companies to share the profit with the employee. I'm sure we differ about that. I'm sorry the employee deserves to be able to negotiate their cost as a whole against the structure of a corporation. It's only fair. Absurd wealth gaps would be curtailed by this. Are there still problems in a system like this? ABSOLUTELY. But it will cut down the wealth gaps immensely if labor can force and negotiate it's costs to the Corporation. Forcing employers to have to negotiate and count that in their budget would help things immensely.
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Male 7,943
@richanddead I'll argue what you are advocating is a race to the bottom. Those jobs are leaving no matter what. Corporate Welfare is band-aiding the problem. We have an understkilled workforce with no pensions. What do you do about them? Survival of the fittest?
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Male 7,943
I'll agree with "entitlement" spending if you are including the Military in that.
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Male 7,943
Let me clarify, I believe 30-35k is a good point in a "starter" wage. I think though in the long run a career job you should be earning 60k+ a year.
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: It isn't band-aid thinking it's fiscal responsibility. Automation will become cheap enough at some point that doesn't mean it's cheap enough now. It's like saying to the railway workers of the 1800's and early 1900's, you know it's not going to be too long before innovation makes the airplane the major means of traveling for people. When that happens the railroads won't need as many people so you guys should just become unemployed right now. It's a total misallocation of resources and doesn't help the workers, the company, the economy, or the public. Your not going to force these companies to make investments, what are you God? Carrier was already planning on leaving to Mexico. You're just going to force more to leave and then wonder why all the business are leaving the country and no new ones are starting. It's also not governments job to retrain the populace, and with what money, we are already going deep into debt because of all the entitlement we already have. You want to force business to pay 60K for entry level jobs, you want to force the companies to stay in the county but not focus on being competitive, you want to force people out of their jobs because they will one day be automated and be retrained by the government, you want to blame Conservative Republicans for everything that's bad and you don't understand. Buddy I don't want to live in that country and I don't think I'm in the minority here either. It sounds like a poorly planned dictatorship. Also guess what those surpluses and recessions is what is known as the boom bust cycle, and even the most socialistic and communistic nations experienced them. You think Conservative policies cause them?! They date back all the way to the beginning of recorded history. Ancient historians recorded the same boom bust observations that we see today, it's how we know about things like the Athenian credit crisis of 594 B.C. or the great roman financial crisis of 33 AD. Were American republicans responsible for the Tulip Mania Depression of 1637? No the boom bust cycle is caused by the law of supply and demand, the availability of capital, and future expectations. Strong consumer demand drives a boom phase, human nature is to become overconfident during these times, people over-invest and when they figure it out they lose confidence and a bust cycle ensues. You can't just instinctively blame Republicans every time reality isn't always special, fair, equal, fun, or beautiful.
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Male 7,943
@richanddead See this is band-aid thinking. Automation will become cheap enough at some point. This is delaying the inevitable. Instead of delaying the inevitable people should have been fighting for higher wages. Force these companies to make that investment. And it's the Governments job to invest in retraining the populace. Our Government has failed to do this by both Democrats and Republicans. But moreso Conservative Republicans. You want someone to blame for why the rust belt has no money, Conservative policies. Look at every single time in our economic history where we had a surplus, we had a recession or depression right afterwards.
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Male 4,153
Speaking of stupid, I wasn't making an argument just stating a fact. Automation is not coming (it is here by the way, has been for a long time) because it's fun or a fad, it's about profits. Now for the stupid part " you keep it that way as long as possible before the inevitable comes"? How about broadening your skill set so that you wont need to be replaced by an auto-burger-flipper because you will have already moved on to a real career?
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Male 7,943
Like what Truck driving? Coal mining, pipe building? What is a "real career"? You do realize we are always going to have a segment of society that can only be "service skilled". Low skill labor is something we have and there aren't enough "skilled person" jobs available to everyone. It's simply not plausible nor realistic.
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Male 1,687
I don't know where you get your information but it was made clear that carrier will get a 7 million state tax break nothing unknown about that. Usually breaks like that are tied to whether they stay or not. And the union boss is bitching well because he didn't. get to make his voice heard.
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Male 20,917
Everything came from The Washington Post.
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Male 6,158
Fancylad watches the news and not an alt-right news group that reports fake news such as General Flin's reports (tweets)of Clinton running a child prostitution ring out of a washington Pizza Joint. Of course you heard of General Flin, Trumps new person on national security, who has been making demented tweets on twitter and has knowingly passed confidential information to people such as his house keeper (Where are the "Lock Him UP" chanters?)
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Male 4,099
@TheZigRat: Actually the Business Insider, the Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal all confirm what @casaledana was saying about a $7 million dollar tax break. Also you should know even the Washington Post already said that General Flin's tweet was about the convicted pedophile Jeffrey Epstein's ties to the Clinton's not the Clinton's running a child prostitution ring out of a Washington Pizza Joint. It was Flin's son who tweeted "Until #Pizzagate proven to be false, it'll remain a story" and he was removed from the Trump transition team because of it.
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Male 4,153
I'm not sure which is dumber, the person that tweets or the person that reads the tweets.
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Male 4,099
@normalfreak2: I'm not trying to defend Trump, Flin, or his son. The point of my comment was that @thezigrat insinuated that @casaledana was getting his news from fringe alt-right news group with no evidence to back up his claim. Yet the facts and figures that @casaledana stated have been verified major media outlets, where as the news story that @TheZigRat was talking about was actually an incorrect story being petaled by liberal outlets like Salon.com. I was noting the irony and hypocrisy, not defending Trump, Flin, or his son. As far as the tweets that you mentioned, I don't defend them at all, they were foolish in my opinion. But I don't think Flin's or his son was being "punished" as you say, it was just good politics to remove Flin's son so it didn't create unnecessary controversy.
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Male 7,943
@richanddead Hold on one minute here, Flin's son get's removed for a tweet but what about the one person who's been tweeting false stories over and over and over again, DONALD TRUMP? LOL Go ahead square that circle. 3 million illegals voted, Ted Cruz's father was in cahoots with JFK's killer, etc Because Flin is doing what his dear leader is doing he get's punished but Trump gets away scot free?
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Male 20,917
I feel like this is going to happen with a lot of his deals. They'll be a Trump press conference about a too-good-to-be-true negation, we'll see him shaking hands with major players in the deal, then a follow-up a few days later will reveal that the original deal fell through.
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