The Economical Fact Is, Minimum Wage Is A Cruel Policy For Poor People

Submitted by: 5cats 9 months ago in News & Politics

As a companion post to yesterday's Minimum Wage article, let's take a look at the history and consequences of minimum wage, as told by Don Boudreaux, American libertarian economist, author, and economics professor.

Short and to the point: the reason minimum wage came about was to harm low-skill workers, not help them. Raising the minimum always hurts the very people the liberal-left claims it will help. Always, every time, without exception.

There are 53 comments:
Male 1,253
Love all the back and forths in this whole thread. Good work, I-A-Bers.
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Male 177
This dipshit "economics" republitard is advocating for protectionism.
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Male 10,855
What "protectionism" are you talking about?
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Female 3,902
start by capping the price of gas at 1.00 and watch how fast the economy will grow, folks can spend more of their money rather than work to fill the gas tank to drive to work to earn the money to fill the gas tank.
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Male 9,087
I drive a prius. I spend like $40 a month on gas. Plus a lot of people making minimum wage can't afford cars anyway so I don't see how lower gas prices will help them all that much.
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Male 39,759
In Zimbabwe the minimum wage is 1 Billion Dollars an hour! Make it like that in America = Utopia! >>> I notice that not one troll has offered a shred of facts, just personal attacks and slanders, as usual. A little bit of DNC propaganda mixed in, along with some strawmen. How typical.
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Male 9,087
@5Cats 1. Slander is spoken. If it is written it is "libel". Learn what words mean. 2. For it to be libel it would have to be false. What did I say that was false? My 2:11 post is nothing but facts. Verifiable facts. Learn, It'll be good for you.
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Male 10,855
Normally I wouldn't side with @5Cats on this line of thought. But then there's the bullshit you wrote at 1:49 pm Nov 17. Seriously what HELL gives you the idea that 5Cats was some "welfare king"? I thought people of your leanings shun such labels anyway. If that's how you're going to treat others who disagree with you then fuck off.
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Male 9,087
@Cajun247 1. Where did I call him a "welfare king" or "label" him? 5Cats lives off the taxpayers. He self-admittedly lives off the Canadian equivalent of Social Security for being disabled. His disability is depression. 2. Clearly he is capable of working a computer all day everyday so I contend that he could get a job doing just that. There are companies that SPECIALIZE in finding work from home jobs for people with disabilities. My cousin got in a motorcycle accident and is paralyzed from the neck down but he still works 25 hrs a week. I would imagine someone with depression could probably manage if they really wanted to. 3. I am very much against the welfare system. I believe in opportunity for anyone willing to work for it. You won't see me advocating for handouts. 4. I have no problem with people who have disabilities being on disability. 5. I have a problem with hypocrisy. You see no hypocrisy in someone living off of the government and social programs railing against the government and social programs all day?
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Male 39,759
He opens this Posting with 'fuck the poor people' and claims 'I sit on my ass' and 'mooch off taxpayers'. Lies. And it is undoubtedly an Unprovoked attack on my disability, again! The rest of his comments are filled with this sort of lies and hate, it just never ends! >>> And FancyLad thinks it's OK for hate-spammers to stalk people here. Sigh!
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Male 39,759
I'll read his November 20, 2016 at 7:40 am comment: lies as expected. He HAS accused me MANY times of being a welfare (disability) fake, fraud or cheater. Often using those exact words. He accuses me of 'not wanting to work' because I am 'too lazy' and simply wish to exploit the system illegally. THAT is identical to (or even worse than) saying I 'don't deserve' to be on disability. >>>So he lies! He 'parses' words like Hillary does: lawyer-like speaking. 'The files were not marked when I sent them...' does not mean she didn't send classified documents!! After removing the markings!! (and she did both: sent marked ones and removed markings) And here the stalker claims 'I never said 5Cats doesn't deserve to...' which might be true. He MIGHT not have used the SPECIFIC WORDS 'NOT DESERVE' but he sure as fuck said I was a fraud, cheat, I think he said thief, and fake. Many times, over the course of YEARS, in spite of me telling him my situation. He knows better than I do what my life is like, of course :-p
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Male 39,759
Hi @Cajun247. Nope, I very rarely read the stalker. When I do, by accident or skimming past it or something? it is ALWAYS the same shit. Rare exceptions may exist, but mostly it's ALL-HATE all day long. And lies. His ability to ignore facts (like Dictionary definitions of words for example) and wallow in self-delusion is appalling. Why he has attacked me for 2+ YEARS while claiming to not be a stalker simply beggars the imagination. And the begging! The constant BEGGING for my attention! What the actual fuck is wrong with this guy? Not that I care, I just wish FancyLad would put an end to his abuse.
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Male 9,087
@Cajun247 I'm well aware you've never said that. However, I bet if I accuse you of it dozens and dozens of times over the next few years you'd begin to understand my frustration level with 5Cats. I was trying to illustrate a point. I've never said ONCE that 5Cats doesn't deserve to be on disability. I've never "attacked" his disability. In fact I have repeatedly said, as I did above, that I'm glad its there to take care of people like him. Yet here he is again is again accusing me of it. So I'm sorry if you're so offended that I called him a fucking idiot, but he's a fucking idiot.
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Male 10,855
@Holygod, Holy shit dude now you've sunk to all new lows. How deep in your ass did you reach to pull out that tidbit of BS? Are you reading this @5Cats?
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Male 9,087
@Cajun247 Well considering the hundreds of times you have used the N-word on IAB I don't think you are in a position to judge.
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Male 10,855
@Holygod Seeing your last post directed at 5Cats, I don't even care to dignify your question with an answer. I'm done with this thread.
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Male 9,087
@Cajun247 so someone's blatant hypocrisy isn't fair game in a debate? That's a personal attack in your view?
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Male 9,087
@5Cats Jesus Christ you fucking idiot. (See that's a personal attack. I have said 100 times I support the social safety net. I support your use of it. I'm glad its there to take care of people like you that can't take care of themselves. I just wish you were more concerned with OTHER people getting help instead of shitting on the programs and government actions that might help other people struggling through life. Nothing I said was lie or a hypocrisy but you're too chicken shit to actually point something out. You just spread your bullshit and move on. You're a pathetic little man. (Also a personal attack).
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Male 10,855
I hear ya dude. I've had to deal with personal attacks from both sides of the political spectrum here, it always irritates me.
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Male 39,759
Thanks so much @Cajun247! Very few people have spoken up to the hundreds of times (for 2+ YEARS now) he has hate-spammed IAB. Only 1 (one!) was in the IAB Liberal Brigade, and he no longer comes here. The rest of the IAB Liberals either remain silent or actively encourage the stalking, defamation, deliberate lies and slander. Sad eh? Your overview of my situation is exactly correct, you have been paying attention! Lolz! I skimmed a bit of his 'defence' and it is packed with lies and hypocrisy, as it always is. Double-speak is the only language he knows, it seems. He has repeatedly told me he supports a 'social safety net' but NOT for people (me) on the wrong side of his political views. One rule for him, a different rule for others, eh? The Liberal Motto (tm)
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Male 10,855
@Holygod Touting your moral indignation isn't going to help your case, and comments like that where you call someone else's character into question over a disagreement I say is below the belt. Lastly, if I were the $7.50/hr worker and as long as the guy who's complaining about the welfare system is willing to give up his benefits from welfare I'd be fine with it. Because then he's willing to relinquish the little shred of privilege he enjoys from it.
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Male 9,087
@Cajun247 1. "comment which I referenced is an accusation that 5Cats is some lazy welfare case" Where the hell do you see that? All I said is he mooches off the taxpayers. He does. Everyone on welfare or disability does. If someone else works and you take their money then you are mooching. That's just what the word means. Sorry if you think its harsh. However I am FINE with people with disabilities getting social security. I also fully acknowledge that clinical depression is a legitimate disability. Not ONCE at ANY point have I EVER said he doesn't deserve disability. In fact I have repeatedly said I'm glad the system exists for those that need it. I just wish he didn't shit on it so much. 2. He said he works one day a few hours at a gas station I believe. I'm glad he's able to. I'm sure it is good for him. However, if you don't think he's on his computer pretty much all day every day then you aren't paying attention. I know because I'm on my computer all day too. I see his posts. 3. It isn't bullshit. I'm for universal healthcare yes, but I'm not a proponent of food stamps, government housing, or cash assistance. I never have been. I'd rather see it completely replaced with a government works program. 4. I draw a HUGE distinction between those who CAN'T work and those who WON'T work. I don't put disability insurance or social security in the same category as welfare or at least that isn't the welfare I'm referring to. 5. His hypocrisy doesn't render his point moot, it just irritates me. I rather people practiced what they preach. Plus as someone who pays a lot of taxes and takes great pride in it I'd like to think that the people who benefit from the taxpayer money would appreciate the TAXES, GOVERNMENT, and SOCIAL PROGRAMS that take care of them instead of ranting and raving against all three constantly. Think of someone who works their ass off for $7.50 an hour and thinks that maybe they might have a chance at a real life if the minimum wage is increased and then they see a guy who doesn't even work or at least works very little and lives off the government repeatedly shitting on the idea.
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Male 10,855
Seriously @Holygod there are so many things wrong with your statement. 1)Your comment which I referenced is an accusation that 5Cats is some lazy welfare case which you have scant evidence to prove. On a side note Americans with clinical depression can also qualify for disability: http://www.disabilitysecrets.com/win-can-you-get-disability-for-depression.html#. 2)Again, what do you mean "all day"? He told you he has a job already, so clearly this a personal attack lodged to make him go away (if not harass him). 3)You and I both know that is complete and utter BS. You have stood on the soapbox for Obamacare and food stamps before, if you're going to try to pretend the former's not welfare (not even corporate welfare) then you are seriously delusional. 4 and 5) First you say you're "very much against the welfare system" (which is a lie) then you turn around and say your fine with "people being on disabilities" which IS the welfare system! One's hypocrisy is not grounds to discredit what they say; that's called a "tu quoque" fallacy. Since the government (and in this case the Canadian government) controls the money it does then that makes them the go to source for support. Seriously dude, this is no way to talk to someone else. Especially someone with CLINICAL DEPRESSION! Either argue your case WITHOUT personal attacks or SHOVE IT!
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Male 1,034
@HolyGod , your post at 2:11 did have an error, however, it's more likely outdated data rather than misdirection...The national minimum wage n Au is not what you quoted. For workers over 21 years of age, it's slightly over $17 p/h....16 to 20 y/o is a percentage of that, varying year to year...That being said, there are several points to consider, which show a vast difference between our concept of min. wage and the US system...Au, and US arevastpy different in many respects, even if similar in others. For instance, gratuiries ie. tipping) is almost non existant in Au. Service workers don't expect tips, unless it's from gullible OS tourists. It's not part of our culture. Secondly, there is a marked difference in the cost of living, the cost of goods and services. between the two countries...which is one of the main reasons why I've always stayed out of the minimum wage arguments in US dominated forums...the AU minimum may seem high, however without relevant data comparing the cost of (basic) living, which is really hard to compare, it's a moot point. And don't let the Au unemploymment figures influence things...the way they work these figures is super-dodgy. The ACTUAL figure would be way higher, because a lot of job-seekers are not included in the stats....only those that recieve welfare payments and are OBLIGATEDto look for work. There are many others on different payments, or not on welfare at all, for various reasons, who are unemployed, actively seeking work, but not included in the ABoS statistics....
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Male 9,087
Your minimum wage is $17.70 correct? However that's Australian dollars. That's a little over $13 American. My figures were for American dollars.
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Male 1,034
@HolyGod ,Fair call, I didn't consider that your figures were converted to $US. Unintentional oversight on my part, and I happilly stand corrected. :)
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Male 7,574
Yea that stupid proof you call "ACTUAL HISOTRY" Just another Liberal bias.
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Male 1,154
I blame women workers. Not that I am against women working, but the near doubling of the labor force has made labor far outpace demand for labor. We need a basic living stipend so that half of america can stay home.
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Male 39,759
Hi kree_ ! People have pointed out how it was all a plot by big business to force women into the workplace by various means... a fine conspiracy theory indeed! And no doubt at least partially true... Finland is trying that: I hope it works out for them and if so? Then the idea will spread:-)
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Male 365
More likely it was the govt putting more tax generators to work.  More workers, more income taxes.
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Male 1,253
Let them eat cake.
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Male 39,759
You do know how that turned out, right? Lala?? >>> But exactly NO ONE is calling for an end to the minimum wage, zero, yet another lie, another strawman trotted out by those with no facts to support them.
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Male 9,087
I agree. Fuck it poor people. D0n't work for slave wages. Don't contribute to society. Sit on your ass like @5Cats and mooch off taxpayers.
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Male 4,098
I don't know if your aware of this, but if a person is can only compete for a minimum wage job, mooching off the taxpayers will still be less then what they would have made from the minimum wage job. When you set a minimum wage, it's known as a price floor and causes the demand of labor to be less then the supply of workers meaning that you actually cause more unemployment with a minimum wage. Here is a pretty unbiased source that might explain it better.
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Male 7,574
Disagree, we have proof of what happens when you don't have a minimum wage. You have a permanent underclass. We lived through what it was like without one. The 1800's and 1900's happened. People work for whatever they can scrap for. Sorry the free market isn't the answer in Labor and health, because their goals are opposite of what is most ethical and right to do.
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Male 653
Bwhahahahhahahahahahga Yes those countries Sweden, Denmark and Iceland are all he'll wholesale for the majority of the public. If only they had a minimum wage law.... Minimum wage becomes the default wage. People who could have earned more earn less. Better to strengthen workers bargaining power than to mandate a low wage which everyone ends up trapped on.
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Male 653
Hell * (autocorrect error)
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Male 9,087
Australia's minimum wage is $13.30/hr. Their unemployment rate is 5.6%. It hasn't been above 6.5% in 15 years. Luxembourg is $12.56 w/ 5.7% unemployment. UK is $11.00 w/ 5.4% unemployment. Germany implemented their first ever minimum wage in July 2014. Since then unemployment has dropped. America implemented large minimum wage increase in 1975, 1990, 1998, and 2007. None of which correlated with a rise in unemployment except for the the 2007 one when the great recession happened. I appreciate what economics books say, but doesn't practice trump theory?
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Male 10,855
Even with all of this considered the Federal minimum wage is among the highest in terms of Purchasing Power in the entire developed world. Brazil raised it's minimum wage back in 2003 then tied it to inflation and now have 12% unemployment. UK's minimum wage is actually variable and allows apprentices or workers under 18 to be paid $4.89/hr.
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Male 76
".. trump theory" That's it in a nutshell .. if you know what the minimum is that folks are likely to bring home at the end of a week's work you can calculate how much to charge for the basic necessities .. increase the minimum wage by 10% and you can get away with increasing the price of bread/milk/beer/whatever by 10% and the punters can still (just) afford it.        
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Male 9,087
@agurney thanks for the insightful post. I don't agree that goods and services go up as high a percentage as wage beacsue wage is not 100% of operating costs. However for this argument I will accept your premise. What you have to keep in mind is that goods do not make up 100% of a person's expenses. If I make minimum wage working full time I make $1,274 per month, $1,145 after taxes. Let's say I rent a room from a family member or split a cheap 2 bedroom apartment. That's $500 a month. My share of utilities is $100. My cell phone is $60/month. My bus pass is $75/month. Let's also say I'm paying down a medical debt or credit card at $100/month. So my monthly bills are $835. That leaves me $310, roughly $75/week to spend on food, toiletries, clothes, etc. I know these are assumptions but that is pretty reasonable wouldn't you say? Now minimum wage goes up 20% from $7.35 to $8.82. Now I make $1,528 per month, $1,375 after taxes. Now my rent and cell doesn't change because I'm under contract and neither does my installment loan. Let's say my utilities and bus pass go up 5%. That same $310 of goods goes up 20% (as you say) to $372. I'm left with an extra $100.
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Male 39,759
This is absolutely correct agurney! Welcome to IAB! (Ignore the hate-spammers and trolls, they will never agree with you or even be polite) Raising the minimum wage drives prices up, without exception, usually across the board. Food, services, housing, they all cost more to operate now, and the cost is always passed on to the consumer one way or another. Either that or the business ceases to exist. >>> Yes, some few benefit, and many others don't see how they have more money (good) but everything costs more now (bad) and they are exactly where they were before. But many more people actually end up much worse off, and have no recourse or alternatives left. The only one who always benefits is the taxman...
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Male 9,087
Sure. It may be less. But clearly you can survive on mooching off the taxpayers. Why spend 40 hrs a week over a fry cooker or cleaning hotel rooms when you can just play around on the internet all day like @5Cats? I mean let's get rid of minimum wage altogether if its bad for people. Let walmart pay people $1 an hour. I don't care.
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Male 4,098
People spend 40 hrs a week over a fry cooker or cleaning hotel rooms because they are making more money than mooching off the government, it gives them pride to have a job, they are able to take care of their families better, and they have an possibility to move to higher paying jobs. The fry cooker could make manager in a few years if they work well, the maid could become a supervisor if they do well. Now maybe the boss is a bad boss and won't let them advance, then maybe they should consider switching to better jobs. But the fact is, raising he minimum wage means that more people will lose their jobs, prices will increase, and those who are stuck in bad jobs will have less options and more competition in trying to switch jobs. I understand you want to help people, but this isn't the way to do it. Personally, I find it stunning that illegal aliens risk their lives just to work hard in jobs that pay below minimum wage in this country, but the people who were born here and have all the opportunity in the world compared to illegals complain that they have no option and no reason to work unless they get top dollar. If you are an American citizen living in America being poor is a temporary position, one that we all go through at times, but living in poverty is a mind set. There are so many people in this world who would trade anything just to be a poor American in America because they know if given the opportunity they would not live in poverty.
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Male 4,098
@normalfreak2: Trust me, economics definitely accounts for human behavior it is one of the oldest and most studied social sciences in existence, going back not just hundreds but thousand of years. If it was so flawed and so easy to dismiss then banks, stock markets, businesses, and governments would be no where as stable as they are. These institutions aren't simply just making arbitrary decisions about money and just by coincidence they've continually worked.
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Male 7,574
In Theory Communism is the greatest system we could devise if it only accounted for one thing. Humans behavior.
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