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Date: 03/19/14 09:30 AM

104 Responses to The Nature Of Minimum-Wage Laws [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:44 am
    Link: The Nature Of Minimum-Wage Laws - Remember that the minimum-wage law provides no jobs; it only outlaws them.
  2. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:15 am
    Again with semantics. Either rich people are greedy and keep the money, forcing less fortunate people to slowly go bankrupt or they pay people properly and everyone does okay.

    Erasing the middle class puts hardworking people in the poor house and poor people onto welfare where the rich people wind up paying for the anyway. At least paying a fair wage means that they are getting paid for working hard rather than sitting at home collecting cheques.
  3. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:21 am
    If unpaid internships didn`t exist there might be some merit here for these "outlawed" jobs. But don`t kid yourself - nobody *wants* to work for less than minimum wage; some would work for it because they had to. One thing this article misses is that minimum wage isn`t about providing jobs, it`s about protecting the poor from exploitation and fighting poverty in general.

    But also nevermind all the instances where minimum wage has increased and the sky hasn`t fallen:

    Highest min wage state outpaces US job growth

    Most Americans favor increase, even repubs

  • Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:21 am
    Meta analysis show no net change in jobs
  • Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2354 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:28 am
    @patchouly, When government spending increases the debt will increase and then more money will be printed and inflation ensues. During inflation wages are late to adjust, thus perpetuating the cycle. Additionally in order to handle increased demands from the citizens the government must increase in size, which of course means more taxes. Government welfare is never a good option.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:55 am
    I wanted to hire 6 year olds to dance at a fully nude strip club. However I found out that there are laws against that. These god-damn government a.ssholes can`t keep their noses to themselves and just let the free market dictate what will happen.

    Let`s see if a direct quote from the article applies:

    "The law says, it is illegal, and therefore criminal, for anyone to hire (6 year olds to work at a strip club). This means, plainly and simply, that a large number of free and voluntary wage contracts are now outlawed and hence that there will be a large amount of unemployment. Remember that the (6 year old strip club) law provides no jobs; it only outlaws them; and outlawed jobs are the inevitable result."

    How dare i not be allowed to exploit people as much as I see fit for the greatest amount of profit!
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 10:56 am
    @patch

    Certainly you can find studies that suggest that raising the minimum wage has no negative effect in some specific regard. Similarly, I`m sure we can find studies that dispute AGW. As such, we tend to observe the body of evidence rather than a few specific studies.

    In doing so, we find that, over the last 50 years, the overwhelming trend in economic studies of minimum wage laws is that they cause more harm than good.

    Here are two links, each citing dozens of studies that agree with this notion.

    Senate.gov
    Cato.org

    Admittedly, the organizations involved are biased. However, take a look through the studies
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:04 am
    @HG

    Since you purposefully edited out the beginning of the paragraph which implies his statement is inextricably linked to minimum-wage laws, I went ahead and quoted here.

    "In truth, there is only one way to regard a minimum-wage law: it is compulsory unemployment, period. The law says, it is illegal, and therefore criminal, for anyone to hire anyone else below the level of X dollars an hour. This means, plainly and simply, that a large number of free and voluntary wage contracts are now outlawed and hence that there will be a large amount of unemployment. Remember that the minimum-wage law provides no jobs; it only outlaws them; and outlawed jobs are the inevitable result."
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:04 am
    patchgrabber - A few things wrong with that. Cost of living is the biggest one - 10 dollars in Washington and 10 dollars in Mississippi are different, way different. Washington also has no income tax and is, to put it bluntly, an educated upper class white state - meaning the supply of unskilled labor is probably lower than average. Don`t involve yourself in the one-stage economic thinking.

    patchouly - Actually, it will fall on the smaller business owners and the franchise owners. I don`t think they will hire as many teens or completely unskilled people for above 10 dollars.

    Why doesn`t Jon Stewart pay his interns?

  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:06 am
    Fun fact guys, Black unemployment used to be lower than White unemployment. That is until the introduction of the first minimum wage laws in the 1930s that priced their labor out of the market, because they were typically less skilled.

    Another fun fact, the first minimum wage laws were pushed by trade unions who wanted to outprice unskilled laborers, giving them a monopoly in the labor market.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:07 am
    @HG

    Also, do you disagree with the logic? So far as I can tell, it still holds true in your statement. Therefore, the conclusion you implicitly agree to is that the logic is correct (and that minimum wage laws outlaw jobs). You agree to this point (finally) and now imply that job loss is acceptable for moral concerns.

    Is this your new position on the subject?
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3907 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:12 am
    There probably isn`t enough information about minimum wage. We are literally inventing it in real time. of course there`s a lot of the people at the top that don`t like it. They have to pay for it. You have to get around greed somehow and regulate it.
  • Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:13 am
    As such, we tend to observe the body of evidence rather than a few specific studies.
    My last link was a meta analysis...that`s an analysis of many studies/papers.
  • Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:15 am
    Don`t involve yourself in the one-stage economic thinking.
    ...which is why I posted several links, one of which contains analysis from several economists reviewing many studies demonstrating no net change in jobs.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:27 am
    @patch

    That report also concludes that raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hr. would result in 500,000 lost jobs (which is still a lower-range estimate among these studies).

    Consider that, in 2012, only 1.6m people earned the federal minimum wage. If they bore the brunt of the job loss, that 31% of them losing their jobs.

    How is that good for minimum wage earners?
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:32 am
    Yes, patch, I read your links. Your link on Washington state didn`t prove anything that Washington state has ok employment while having a higher minimum wage. I just told you why it won`t affect Washington as much, but you ignored the explanations.The minimum wage doesn`t kill ALL jobs, it targets the most vulnerable jobs, and eliminates certain sectors completely.

    However, note that Washington state has the 6th highest teen unemployment.

    Your link also says nothing about cost of living differences, which I brought up previously. A 7.25 minimum wage in West Virginia is effectively equal to probably 9 dollars in Washington, or even more.

    A link from Bloomberg isn`t enough for you to hide behind. I could easily find Bloomberg links saying the complete opposite.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:34 am
    Good point, Human Action. The link he provided literally says half a million jobs will be affected. Half a million "first jobs", mind you. The first step in a career.

    Never mind how many people will not be able to start careers because they can`t afford to take a 2nd or 3rd unpaid internship. Seriously, it`s illegal to work for 7 dollars, but legal to work for free.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:35 am
    Andrew155

    "Fun fact guys, Black unemployment used to be lower than White unemployment. That is until the introduction of the first minimum wage laws in the 1930s that priced their labor out of the market, because they were typically less skilled."

    Another fun fact guys, Black unemployment used to be lower than White unemployment. That is until slavery was outlawed which priced their labor out of the market, because they were typically less skilled.

    See before the government stepped in, business owners were allowed to let the free market dictate how they treated their employees.

    Once slavery was outlawed cotton prices went up and former slaves found themselves homeless. You have to think about the unintended consequences of laws. Outlawing slavery was actually bad for black people.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:40 am
    HumanAction

    "Also, do you disagree with the logic? So far as I can tell, it still holds true in your statement. Therefore, the conclusion you implicitly agree to is that the logic is correct (and that minimum wage laws outlaw jobs). You agree to this point (finally) and now imply that job loss is acceptable for moral concerns.

    Is this your new position on the subject?"

    No. My position is employers only hire the minimum number of employees they need to run their business. If they could eliminate a position at $7.25 an hour they would. So there are not superfluous employees that are being paid $7.25 an hour for no reason that will be fired at $10 an hour.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:04 pm
    @HG

    That`s not strictly true though, is it? It`s not the "minimum number of employees" so much as it is the best value.

    For example, McDonalds could absolutely mechanize their process right now; the technology is there. Why don`t they? Well, it`s still cheaper to buy labor to cook and assemble the food.

    See, they`re trying to get the best bang for their buck - which is not necessarily the cheapest bang for their buck. Everywhere else in the world, we call it value. When it comes to business though, we call it greed.

    You`ve said before that you have employees. Do you pay them minimum wage? If not, why? Well the answer is obvious - the value they bring is worth more than that of someone who would work for minimum wage.

    You could pay them more; as you`ve stated, your income is in the top 20%. However, you choose not to. Why? Because you want the best value.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:11 pm
    Arguement - Miniumum Wage Laws hurts the economy

    Reality - Minimum wage laws have not hurt the US economy. Fraud committed by deregulated corporations have hurt the World economy, and the perpetrators of this fraud were not paid a minimum wage.

    The only countries that appear to not have minimum wage laws DO have strong unions that utilize collective bargaining to set contracted wages. Source

    Let`s follow the examples of countries that do not have any minimum wage, you know countries like, somalia, Kazakstan, or North Korea.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:22 pm
    HumanAction

    "You`ve said before that you have employees. Do you pay them minimum wage? If not, why? Well the answer is obvious - the value they bring is worth more than that of someone who would work for minimum wage."

    Obviously.

    "You could pay them more; as you`ve stated, your income is in the top 20%. However, you choose not to. Why? Because you want the best value."

    WRONG. I could have paid them less and they`d still have been happy. I could fire them and get talented kids straight out of school for an even better value. I could get developers in india for an even better value than that. My work would stay teh same, my clients wouldn`t change, and I`d make more money.

    Know why I don`t do that? Because I care about them. Because they`ve helped me grow my business and I owe them better than that. Because I don`t live my life by how much money I make.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:35 pm
    llaa - I would really like you to draw a supply and demand curve and show me what a price floor looks like. I don`t think you understand that concept, or even which way the supply or demand curves would slope.

    Your Somalia quip kind of highlights the ridiculousness of your argument. No response to it.

    Minimum wage rates matter if the price floor is ABOVE the equilibrium price. I`m not sure you`ve ever taken an economics class, so here is a graphic for you. You are being a science denier if you disagree with this.

  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:35 pm
    Equilibrium wages will be different in every location. They are vastly different in your typical Scandinavia reference because they don`t have enough low skilled laborers to drive down the price. Why do you think they have immigration laws that would be considered white supremacist here?

    As for unions - we have strong public sector unions. Our private sectors ones used to be the strongest in the world, too. But they priced themselves out of existence. Their jobs are now in Asia or Southern states. You wrongly write off Germany`s lack of a minimum wage, too. Workers getting together to negotiate a salary is far better than some arbitrary price floor made by the bureaucracy that makes it illegal to work for certain values of money.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 12:40 pm
    @HG

    You skirted the question. Why don`t you pay them more?

    According to your own statements, you could afford to. However, you choose not to. Would you not improve their lives more than detracting from your own in doing so?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 1:16 pm
    My argument is based in reality, those are the countries without any minimum wage laws, facts.
    Your argument is based on hypothetical bs.

    Reminds me of a joke I heard,

    What are the tools of a mathematician? Paper and a trash can.

    What are the tools of an economist? A piece of paper.
  • Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36694 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 1:24 pm

    Accorinding to USA Today report Beef has increased in price 22%. Other foods also rising fast but I promise you salaries are not going up that fast.

    People have to eat, even the guy at 7-11 has to feed himself. No one wants to double the minimum wage but as salaries in general haven`t kept pace with inflation for 25 years. The standard of living has dropped a lot in the last 30 years, we need to slow that decline a bit. Corporations have raked in record profits, it won`t kill them to give a small raise to the labor force.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 1:27 pm
    @Gerry

    Corporations have raked in record profits, it won`t kill them to give a small raise to the labor force.
    Agreed. That being said, the minimum wage doesn`t do this.
  • Profile photo of xavroche
    xavroche Male 30-39
    819 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 2:10 pm
    "Minimum wage rates matter if the price floor is ABOVE the equilibrium price. I`m not sure you`ve ever taken an economics class, so here is a graphic for you. You are being a science denier if you disagree with this."

    This isn`t necessarily true. Minimum wage can technically be set at equilibrium to avoid market failures. Not arguing for or against minimum wage... just throwing it out there.
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 2:30 pm
    The government has no constitutional authority to dictate the terms of private contracts.

    This is further proof that our republic has long since degenerated into a democracy.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:12 pm
    xavroche - let me clarify, price floors in general have negative effects only when the equilibrium price is below the price floor. Just like how price ceilings have negative effects when the equilibrium price is above the ceiling. Price floors cause surpluses, price ceilings causes shortages.

    I agree that you could theoretically set the minimum wage at the exact equilibrium price, but this is difficult for a government to do because that equilibrium price changes so often. Also, the equilibrium price is different for different regions and different occupations. This is why central planning usually fails.

    Gerry - If you don`t like the inflation, blame the contemporary schools of economics that advocate chronic, yearly inflation. These schools of inflation target 2% inflation as "healthy", but really they`re just making poor people poorer.
  • Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36694 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:23 pm

    Me, "Corporations have raked in record profits, it won`t kill them to give a small raise to the labor force."
    HumanAction - "Agreed. That being said, the minimum wage doesn`t do this."Do you think the people earning minimum wage are not of the labor force? They certainly are not executives or upper management. I don`t understand your statement.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:28 pm
    OldOllie

    "The government has no constitutional authority to dictate the terms of private contracts."

    The government has no constitutional authority, the government has no constitutional authority, the government has no constitutional authority.

    Jesus, you sound like the crotchety old f.ucks I see ranting and raving at the courthouse.

    Yes. No s.hit. They don`t have the constitutional authority to do a lot of things because the constitution is a very small document.

    S.hit has changed quite a bit in the last 250 years in case you haven`t noticed. Get over it. PROGRESS. We aren`t just a bunch of hillbillies with muskets living in logged cabins anymore.

    It takes a few additional laws to make the society function.
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3907 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:33 pm
    Survival of the fittest is a terrible way to live Ollie.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:46 pm
    S.hit has changed quite a bit in the last 250 years in case you haven`t noticed. Get over it. PROGRESS. We aren`t just a bunch of hillbillies with muskets living in logged cabins anymore.

    In other words: "We`ve undone the rule of law. PROGRESS!"

    @normalfreak

    Oh puleeaazze, Democracy is social Darwinism in its most potent form. Whatever faction has most the most numbers gets to impose their will on everyone else.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 3:59 pm
    @Gerry

    Do you think the people earning minimum wage are not of the labor force?
    I don`t know what made you think this. My point, which is supported by all essentially all of the available evidence, is that raising the minimum wage will help some minimum wage workers at the expense of other minimum wage workers.

    As was shown in the CBO estimate provided by patchgrabber, they expect that raising the minimum wage to $10.10/hr will result in 500,000 lost jobs - or 30-35% of the minimum wage labor force.

    Therefore, we can see that the people who pay for the increase are not the CEOs; rather, it is the minimum wage workers who will pay for the raise.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:13 pm
    So, here`s the 2013 data from BLS

    Fed Min Wage: $7.25
    16+ Labor Market: 155,389,000
    Employed: 143,929,000
    Unemployed: 11,460,000
    Outside of Labor: 90,290,000
    Minimum Wage Workers: 1,532,000

    Therefore, the unemployment rate is: 7.4%.

    Increase to 7.7% as suggested in CBO. Updated total unemployed increases to 11,965,000.

    Total of ~505,000 new unemployed.

    Percent of minimum wage workers made unemployed by new law: ~33%.

    Original Weighted Hourly Income of Minimum Wage Earners: 1*(7.25) = $7.25.

    New Weighted Hourly Income of Previous Minimum Wage Earners: .33(0) + .67(10.10) = $6.77.

    Net loss: $0.48/hr.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:38 pm
    @humanaction


  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:42 pm
    HumanAction

    "My point, which is supported by all essentially all of the available evidence, is that raising the minimum wage will help some minimum wage workers at the expense of other minimum wage workers."

    Congratulations. That is true of pretty much f.ucking everything. It helps some people and hurts some people. If you can find any decision that makes EVERYONE happy, congratulations.

    However if it helps 95% of people it is still a good thing. I also think your assertion that people will lose jobs is grossly over exaggerated. The minimum wage has gone up a dozen times and I have seen no evidence of massive lay offs.

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:54 pm
    @HG

    However if it helps 95% of people it is still a good thing.
    Invented statistic.

    I also think your assertion that people will lose jobs is grossly over exaggerated.
    Well, the CBO disagrees. Also, just about every economist does too.

    The minimum wage has gone up a dozen times and I have seen no evidence of massive lay offs.
    Who said anything about massive layoffs? You haven`t been reading. The estimates are always the number of jobs that *could have* been created if not for the law. Keep in mind, it`s effectively the same thing due to a constantly fluxing market - just less obvious.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:55 pm
    @HG

    Also, I`m still wondering why, despite certainly being able to afford it, you do not pay your employees more?

    By your own reasoning, the gain they would get would be greater than the loss you would feel.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 4:55 pm
    @llaa

    Yes... a wookie. Clever boy.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:04 pm
    @humanaction

    Your argument has no real bearings on reality.

    But damn, just look at it, its a wookie. It doesnt add up...
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:06 pm
    Pegging Minimum Wage To Inflation

    Year-Minimum Wage $$$-CPI Inflations 2014 dollars
    1938 .25 - $4.16
    1956 $1.00 - $8.63
    1967 $1.40* - $7.03
    1974 $2.00* - $9.52
    1978 $2.65 - $9.54
    1981 $3.10 - $8.01**
    1990 $3.80 - $6.83**
    1997 $5.15 - $7.53
    2009 $7.25 - $7.93
    Proposed 2014 Increase - $10.10
    *Racists Exceptions for rural workers (mexicans)
    **Friedman economics at work
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:10 pm
    @llaa

    So far, your argument consists of arguing "nuh uh", "no way", "reality", and a wookie.

    Oh, and your past arguments have consisted of glorifying a Marxist Chilean president who`s policies and administration absolutely devastated the Chilean economy.

    So once again, forgive me for not taking you seriously.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:12 pm
    @llaa

    Pegging Minimum Wage To Inflation
    Yes. You`ve shown that inflation has outpaced minimum wage. We all know this. We all agree.

    However, once again, your random injection has nothing to do with the argument. Do minimum wage laws cause more harm than good? Once again, the consensus among people who can actually piece together coherent arguments about economics is that yes, they do.
  • Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7741 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:27 pm
    The uk is currently £6.50 which is around $10.75
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:28 pm
    @humanaction

    Your belief in macro economics from the 1950s and what you learned in econ 101 is what ruins your argument. Pretty formulas that look great but when interpreted with real world integers they fall apart. I believe its more nuanced and historically the sky hasn`t fallen when minimum wage was worth more and when it was worth less the wealthy got wealthier and the poor became poorer.

    "forgive me for not taking you seriously."

    No you`re just really smug and the way you read into my comments, glorifying marxists that were murdered, the ussr was great, etc, etc...

    I never made those claims you just assumed them. Your underwear is too tight. Unclench. Please.

  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:29 pm
    HumanAction

    "Also, I`m still wondering why, despite certainly being able to afford it, you do not pay your employees more?"

    I pay them a reasonable wage. I`ve never said employers should pay people as much as they possibly can. $7.25 is not a reasonable wage for anything.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:31 pm
    llaa

    "Your belief in macro economics from the 1950s and what you learned in econ 101"

    He`s just a stooge for the CATO institute. He has been convinced by billionaire bankers that giving poor people more money will hurt poor people. It would be hilarious if it wasn`t so sad.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:35 pm
    @HG

    I pay them a reasonable wage.
    Oh I see - how interesting.

    So, other people should pay their employees more money because they can and because it`s the nice thing to do.

    You, on the other hand, shouldn`t have to.

    I find it so interesting that the wage you subjectively picked as "reasonable" is above the minimum wage yet below your own responsibilities.

    Again, you`re a hypocrite.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:36 pm
    @llaa

    That`s so strange. I had no idea the CBO report from Feb. 2014 was based on 1950`s macroeconomics. How interesting.

    Herp derp.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:37 pm
    @HG

    He`s just a stooge for the CATO institute.
    Well if we`re going to start name-calling - you`re just a stooge to your religion: liberalism. Your God is government and He can fix all.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:37 pm
    $7.25 is not a reasonable wage for anything.

    Reasonable for any business owner who isn`t a member of the Walton family.

    He`s just a stooge for the CATO institute. He has been convinced by billionaire bankers that giving poor people more money will hurt poor people. It would be hilarious if it wasn`t so sad.

    Ad hominem AND strawman argument. It would be hilarious if you didn`t actually believe it.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:41 pm
    @llaa

    Pretty formulas that look great but when interpreted with real world integers they fall apart.
    Also, no need to restrict yourself to integers. Think outside of the box.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:41 pm
    Your God is government and He can fix all.

  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:42 pm
    You`re still smug, lol.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:45 pm
    HumanACtion
    OldOllie
    Andrew155
    Others

    There are millions of people who work full time jobs for billion dollar companies in the richest country in the world yet they can`t even survive on what they are paid.

    You want to s.hit all over raising the minimum wage. So what is your solution?

    F.uck em?
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:47 pm
    HumanAction

    "Again, you`re a hypocrite."

    And you`re an a.sshole that doesn`t know what the word hypocrite means. Keep living a philosophy that creates a slave class of desperate people living in poverty. Congratulations on your fancy charts. That is much better than actual humanity.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:50 pm
    Cajun247

    "Reasonable for any business owner"

    Who exactly? WHo can`t pay tehir employees more than $7.25 an hour? Who are these poor souls? Give me some examples.

    I look around and I see Walmart, Mcdonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Target, Kroger, Subway, Taco Bell, Sears, Best Buy, etc, etc, ETC.

    Where are your struggling small businesses that can`t make it?
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:52 pm
    @llaa

    You`re still smug, lol.
    Well I know that, lol.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:54 pm
    @Holy God

    Anarchic Libertarian City States, but no war cause free trade yo.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:56 pm
    HumanAction

    "Percent of minimum wage workers made unemployed by new law: ~33%."

    Where the f.uck do you get that?

    CBO puts it at .3% and admits it might be 0.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:58 pm
    I look around and I see Walmart, Mcdonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, Target, Kroger, Subway, Taco Bell, Sears, Best Buy, etc, etc, ETC.

    You misunderstand there are business owners who do not belong in the same quintile as the Walton family. They`d be less able to afford minimum wage. There are even business owners in the bottom two quintiles.

    In case you`ve forgotten Walmart is part of the Walton family estate.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 5:58 pm
    @HG

    yet they can`t even survive on what they are paid
    Over exaggeration for emotional effect. If they weren`t surviving, they would not be able to work; they would be dead.

    Dead = unable to work.

    So what is your solution?
    Theoretically or "in practice"? I assume you mean "in practice".

    Two reasonable approached I`ve heard thus far:

    1. Negative income tax pegged below the equilibrium market price of the lowest 10% of incomes; or,
    2. National sales tax with a prebate based on previous years income.

    Pros and cons to each.

    Congratulations on your fancy charts.
    Thank you. Math FTW!

    Keep living a philosophy that creates a slave class of desperate people living in poverty.
    Non-sequitur based on the presented research.

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:00 pm
    @HG

    CBO puts it at .3% and admits it might be 0.
    No... CBO puts the increase in TOTAL unemployment at 0.3%. That is the same as saying 500k people will become unemployed (they say that in the report too).

    There are roughly only 1.5m people earning minimum wage; they are most likely the ones who will be eliminated due to an increase in the minimum wage.

    500,000/1,500,000 * 100 = 33%.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:03 pm
    Cajun247

    "There are even business owners in the bottom two quintiles."

    I get that, but the no minimum wage argument constantly reinforces this notion of a small business owner whose business can`t survive if the minimum wage goes up to $10. I`m asking you. What is this mythical business? Please tell me.

    The reality is the ACTUAL no minimum wage debate is the rich owners of the businesses I listed that just want to maximize profits and couldn`t care less about people.

    That is whose cause you are championing.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    @HG

    Also, the CBO suggests that the real loss will range from 0% to 0.6%; in raw numbers, that could mean a loss of 0 jobs, or as many as 1 million. Reasonably, they presented the middle value.

    Again though, job loss is not the only consequence. Instead, it is merely only one possible consequence. In reality, the total losses will be very diverse.

    I believe you presented a study the other day which agrees and lists a variety of other possible outcomes.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    HumanAction

    "There are roughly only 1.5m people earning minimum wage; they are most likely the ones who will be eliminated due to an increase in the minimum wage."

    OK. So you are making that up. The CBO didn`t say anything about that. Businesses could end up deciding to fire 1 person making $50/hr so they could afford the increase for 25 minimum wage workers. You`re just skewing things to fit your argument.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:06 pm
    @Cajun247 Small businesses can and do afford to pay more, that`s why people would rather work for a small business and not taco bell. I worked at a second hand store in the ghetto and got paid a few dollars over minimum wage. In very poor areas only the chain corporations may be only employers due to the unfair advantage corp monies use to shutdown existing local competition.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:09 pm
    @HG

    The reality is the ACTUAL no minimum wage debate is the rich owners of the businesses I listed that just want to maximize profits and couldn`t care less about people.
    Non-sequitur. The evidence given is presented by the CBO - a government entity.

    Are you now arguing that the CBO has been hired by rich business owners?
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    HuanAction

    "I believe you presented a study the other day which agrees and lists a variety of other possible outcomes."

    Absolutely. Things may happen. I don`t think it will be that severe or long lasting. So we raise minimum wage and have:

    GUARANTEED benefits for LOTS of people
    with
    POSSIBLE losses for a FEW people.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    @HG

    OK. So you are making that up.
    So... your argument is that most of the jobs lost will actually be people who make more than $10.10/hr?

    Is this now your argument?
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:10 pm
    @HG

    POSSIBLE losses for a FEW people.
    Meh, what`s a million people losing their jobs? Amirite?
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:11 pm
    HumanAction

    "Are you now arguing that the CBO has been hired by rich business owners?"

    No I`m saying the rich business owners will fire people to try to maximize profits and that is where the CBO gets its .3%.

    The minimum wage could go up to $10 without a single job needing to be lost.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:13 pm
    @HG

    The minimum wage could go up to $10 without a single job needing to be lost.
    Once again, no one cares about what you think *should* happen. Instead, we tend to think about what the evidence suggests will happen.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:14 pm
    HumanAction

    "yet they can`t even survive on what they are paid

    Over exaggeration for emotional effect. If they weren`t surviving, they would not be able to work; they would be dead.

    Dead = unable to work."

    BULLS.HIT. READ.

    "ON WHAT THEY ARE PAID."

    They are surviving because they are living with someone else, working a second or third job, or getting welfare.

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:15 pm
    @HolyGod

    They are surviving because they are living with someone else, working a second or third job, or getting welfare.
    Semantics. Depends on what "being paid" consists of.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:17 pm
    HumanAction

    I gotta go work and I can`t keep having the same debate.

    There is more than enough resources for everyone. There is no reason for anyone to live in poverty and the only reason they have to is because of people like you.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:19 pm
    @HG

    There is no reason for anyone to live in poverty and the only reason they have to is because of people like you.
    Non-sequitur given the evidence presented.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:19 pm
    Small businesses can and do afford to pay more, that`s why people would rather work for a small business and not taco bell.

    They could but they wouldn`t be able to provide as many jobs.

    In very poor areas only the chain corporations may be only employers due to the unfair advantage corp monies use to shutdown existing local competition.

    If you`re referring to govt regulations like zoning laws or rent controls then I`d agree those are totally unfair. What else by "unfair" do you mean?
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:21 pm
    Sadly, oftentimes the worst damage is caused by those who most fervently believe in the good they`re doing.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:25 pm
    they have to is because of people like you.

    Really? Gee I thought we were just messengers, I could just as well blame you for all the destruction in the world govt has inflicted. But I`d be incorrect.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:36 pm
    @Cajun

    No worries. I get the feeling that HolyGod is one of those people who surrounds himself with an echo chamber and gets stunned when other people disagree with him.

    Most of our conversations have four stages:

    1. Pleasant discussion.
    2. "Starving children", "poor people", or my personal favorite - "the poor starving children who are probably black"
    3. I`m not a hypocrite; this is why I have different rules.
    4. I hate you and you`re evil.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 6:39 pm
    @HumanAction

    It`s cool bro, I`ve been responding to HolyGod et als` comments the whole time. My picture was really a mockery of statheists, that is say statist atheists.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:08 pm
    @Cajun247

    What I mean by an unfair advantage using corp. monies (a collection of shareholders monies) is that a new chain-store selling tacos can afford to undersell their competition at a loss until their competition is unable to compete in the local market. At that point once the corp has a monopoly in the local area they can do raise prices to make up for the initial loss, could be years.
    For examples look at what blockbuster, home depot, wallmart, h&r block has done to local businesses. Either the business lowers their prices and competes at a loss and goes bankrupt in the process or has enough cash reserves to operate. When your dealing with millions of dollars in corp reserves that become difficult when your profit at you smaller store may be in the hundred of thousands or lower. It can happen, but its rare that a SBO has the millions of dollars for their business to survive.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:11 pm

  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:17 pm
    The sweet spot looks like a rectum.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:18 pm
    llaa - I do hope you realize that the overhead costs of regulations are the biggest destroyer of small business. I was talking to a business owner last year, and he said that his business spent 1 million dollars complying with the Patriot Act over the past 10 years.

    Government regulations at work. Small businesses are disproportionately affected by them. It makes market entry harder. Overhead costs are disproportionately burdensome.

    Just curious. Which way does the supply curve slope?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:29 pm
    @Andrew155

    Joking aside. I believe that model is outdated and lacking in real-world data. I`m more interested in Search Frictions in determining the value of minimum wage. Interesting stuff.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 7:35 pm
    Price goes up the demand goes down. Im down for learning stuff, but I didnt really have to look up supply slope to know that basic rule.

    Picture this, there are vendors agreeing to sell the same item at a set price in order to dissuades the consumer from shopping around for a better price so the price can be invariably higher than the real cost of the item. Let say the consumer can find a better price somewhere else but it`s 20 miles away. (Eg. Should you buy the item from amazon.com and wait or should I go to best buy, pay more and get it now.)

    Now let me ask you, is the item worth the price in my market or is it worth the price outside of my area?
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 8:02 pm
    For examples look at what blockbuster, home depot, wallmart, h&r block has done to local businesses. Either the business lowers their prices and competes at a loss and goes bankrupt in the process or has enough cash reserves to operate

    Based on what data?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 8:17 pm
    @Cajun

    Google is your friend.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 8:26 pm
    Google is your friend.

    No bud, YOU made a positive claim. YOU must back it up.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 9:24 pm
    Or Wikipedia Search: Anti-competitive Practices

  • Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:11 pm
    Given that the CEO of McDonalds tripled *his* salary without raising the cost of burgers, I fail to see how increasing the pay of minimum wage workers would raise the cost of burgers.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    March 19, 2014 at 11:21 pm
    @llaa

    The only article you`ve provided is not only misleading regarding the stance of libertarians in general, it doesn`t answer my question. Where is the data that says the introduction of Wal-Mart inevitably leads to the destruction of indigenous businesses?
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3489 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 12:08 am

  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 12:17 am
    Sleepyhollow - I will explain.

    The main reason is that we are going to assume the CEO of McDonalds IS greedy. Let`s say the greedy mofo wants to take home 5 million dollars. He will do this regardless of what the minimum wage is.

    People think that the cost of the minimum wage comes out of the CEO`s money bags. No, it doesn`t. Also, many McDonalds are franchises - small businesses, so this barely applies.

    Moreover, this is diversion. A minimum wage will apply to all businesses, not just big ones that, yes, can afford to pay it. The burden for these laws will fall on small businesses and unskilled workers. They WILL NOT pay a 16 year old down the street 15 dollars an hour.
  • Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 12:23 am
    You bring up increased prices as a result of it. This is correct in at least two ways. One is to cover labor costs, the other is as a result of a rightward shift in the supply curve because of increased incomes.

    Now, though this isn`t all bad, increasing incomes will do this to the price of some things:

  • Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14626 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 1:31 am
    It`s not as straightforward as the author suggests. There are some jobs that employers are prepared to pay more for but don`t currently have to. There are others that will simply be cut or moved overseas. That`s one reason why I`m in Hong Kong, a place that benefits greatly from the differing costs of manufacturing between the USA and China.

    On the topic of Hong Kong, I have two full-time live in maids and a driver, not counting the wife. Not many people have so many household staff but I haven`t spoken to any that have none. How many people do you employ to do your dishes, make your beds, clean house, mind the kids and bring you a coffee, breakfast and slippers in the morning?

    If they increased the minimum wage by 50%, I would fire one of the maids (who are sisters) and make the remaining one work twice as hard. A 100% minimum wage increase would be the demise of the driver, and a 250% increase would mean my wife would have to wake up before (gasp) 8am.
  • Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 7:49 am
    ~a stunned silence descends on the thread as we all contemplate Draculya`s life with two live-in maids and a driver~
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 2:11 pm
    HEHE

    No one is talking about a 50% increase in minimum wage, but Draculya makes a good point, he has servants because he can afford them and lives among a society that is accustomed to house servants (brit`s and their wacky colonialism). I doubt minimum wage will increase to $10.10/hr. in the US, I see that number as the high to a lower compromise amount agreed by congress, if they pass an increase of minimum wage.

    I grew up with house maids, they`re a pain in the ass, always stealing my weed stash when I was a teenager...
  • Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14626 posts
    March 20, 2014 at 10:56 pm
    @Squrlz4Sale don`t worry, it`s not all that. They`re butt ugly. Nothing like the fantasy:

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