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Date: 03/01/14 11:12 AM

63 Responses to The Economics Of Sex

  1. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 10:49 am
    Link: The Economics Of Sex - Turns out the feminist revolution played right into men`s hands. But shhh we have to let them think they`re winning.
  2. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 12:01 pm
    what disgusting drivel... rigorous academic my feckin arse.
  3. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 12:06 pm
    Having wandered about their site a bit this looks like a right wing religious set up...
  4. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 12:12 pm
    @madduck

    Is there anything specifically you reject from their argument?

    You know, "what disgusting drivel" and "looks like a right wing religious set up" aren`t exactly rebuttals so much as they are dismissals.

    I didn`t see or hear anything that seemed incorrect, unreasonable, or illogical. Perhaps you would care to share?
  5. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36204 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 12:26 pm

    Why buy the cow if the milk is free.
  6. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 12:26 pm
    Yes. The idea that marriage rates are down because of contraception- really? Really? The idea that sex is a commodity? Sex and marriage would be better viewed in a cultural context- not an economic one. This is deeply offensive because it purports to be something it really isn`t- men want sex and have to pay a price for it. To those who are married- DO NOT show this to your wife. Did you really get married to have access to her lady parts? Just to point- other bits on their site have research to prove masturbation is bad for you, same sex parenting is also bad for kids... go figure.
  7. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 1:07 pm
    @madduck

    I think you`re doing more interpreting than listening.

    Firstly, they`re not saying that ONLY men want sex. Rather, they`re saying that men have a higher sex drive on the average.

    Secondly, they`re not saying that men ONLY marry to have access to sex. Rather, they`re saying that if a high enough percentage of women required marriage before sex, then more men would marry sooner; that`s not to say that the men are ONLY getting married for sex as opposed to factoring it into the equation.

    Thirdly, I don`t think that they are suggesting that sex is a commodity so much so as they are simply viewing it in that context.

    Fourthly, it stands to reason that available contraceptives lower the potential consequences of sex, therefore resulting in more sex. I think it is an easy jump to get from there, to seeing potentially fewer marriages amongst young people.
  8. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 1:16 pm
    I disagree. Firstly they ARE interpreting- just as we are doing. But- for their argument to work we must assume that you would only marry to have children- they even state it themselves that the price of sex without contraceptives is children. But plenty of people have children without getting married...in fact-I know of very few who have children after marriage. They assume that women use sex as a priced resource `Sex in consensual relationships will happen when women want it to. - when- pricing` - so, not because they are horny then. They give a single cause to the drop in marriage rates due to women giving away all that free sex. You should be paying for that sex with marriage...
  9. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 1:41 pm
    @madduck

    Firstly they ARE interpreting- just as we are doing.
    That`s not what I mean. They are presenting an argument. Instead of listening to the words they are saying, you seem to be making unfounded assumptions about them; hence, I suggest you simply listen to the words and address them as opposed to interpreting the words and addressing your unfounded interpretation.

    We do not need to assume that the ONLY reason to marry is to have children. Rather, we are working on averages. They are not saying that ALL men "do something" or that ALL women "do something".

    They are saying that, on the average, men are more likely to "do something" or have more capacity to "do something" and that, on the average, women are more likely to "do something" and are more capable to "do something".
  10. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 1:44 pm
    For instance, if I say the following:

    "If a random man and a random woman are selected, it is more likely for the man to be physically stronger."

    Is your reaction:

    A. Yes - this is a biological fact; or,
    B. Gina Carano could beat you up.
  11. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31783 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 3:09 pm
    Yup! Pretty much covers it.
    Sure, you can slap different names and labels on various parts of it, but it`s essentially true: contraception has forever changed society. Of course other factors are involved, but that`s a HUGE one!

    Nice one @paperduck! I feared the worst but was pleasantly surprised!
  12. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 3:51 pm
    @ Madduck and HumanAction: Excuse my butting in, but this is interesting stuff.

    I have to say, my general reaction to this video is akin to Madduck`s. It seems to dress a moral viewpoint in the guise of economic research, which I don`t buy. The Austin Institute for The Study of Family and Culture is, indeed, a right-wing think tank that has taken a position against gay marriage and warns about the dangers of masturbation.

    That said, I think the argument here has *some* validity. I think about my grandparents, for instance. They were happily married their entire lives and my grandfather always treated my grandmother like a queen. Years after my grandfather had died, a physician complimented my grandmother on her health and appearance. Her response, without missing a beat: "Thank you. I had a good husband."

    I have to think that the rarity of sex outside of marriage at the time of their courtship played a role in all that.
  13. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3318 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 4:21 pm
    Sex actually comes up a lot in Economic theories. Its a great way to view economic utility value. It has also aided in the conception of several economic breakthroughs like the Nash Equilibrium and Game Theory.
  14. Profile photo of Xprez
    Xprez Male 30-39
    676 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 5:12 pm
    Look, sex is fun and it`s pleasurable. I think some women use it as a resource. I`ve been in relationships where a woman thought that I should do everything she wanted, and then I was entitled to get sex. To me, sex is the most sincere form of love. It brings me closer to a female, if I`m in love with them. Holding onto and having all of the say when it comes to sex, tends to backfire on women. If a man has made a commitment to you and only you, and you then tell him he can only have it when you deem him "qualified" guess what he does? See at that point (if married) you`ve BOTH broken your vows. Some women need to stop using sex as a work/reward program if you don`t want your man to cheat. Otherwise, you end up "settling" for that guy you really don`t want, who will put up with your crap.
  15. Profile photo of SlicerDicer
    SlicerDicer Male 50-59
    29 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 6:14 pm
    The theories presented in the video apply mostly to the advanced industrialized nations. The dynamics between men and women in third world countries is vastly different.

    I do find it amusing that it is a woman complaining that there is no way that sex is a commodity.

    If men did not have a greater biological need for sex, on average, than women then there would be much less prostitution then there is now.
  16. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 7:16 pm
    Yes, exactly, sex is a commodity - or rather a service. How else could you buy and sell it?
  17. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 7:36 pm
    @S4S

    I agree that the video has a preachy undertone about Christian morality. Also, it`s fairly obvious that the organization is trying to suggest that birth control is bad.

    Nonetheless, I don`t see any obvious flaws in their argument; that`s all I was trying to say. It`s not fair to dismiss the argument outright without a valid rebuttal.

    As for sex, there is clearly a supply of sex, and there is clearly a demand for sex. Given such, it`s not necessarily silly to consider sex as an economy.
  18. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 8:10 pm
    I think it`s a bit of a fallacy to say someone`s argument is invalid because some other separate thing they`ve said is wrong.
  19. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 9:20 pm
    @ HumanAction and Andrew: I think looking at human sexual relations from an economic perspective can be interesting. And I think it can offer some insights. It brings to mind a favorite quote of mine from Aristotle: "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

    The problem I have with the makers of this video is they present this economic interpretation not as an interesting perspective but as some kind of magical key that unlocks *what`s really going on* in human sexual relations.

    I don`t buy their view that sex is a valuable commodity that is *dispensed by women to men* as a reward. Frankly, the societies that view sex that way--as some kind of taboo treat--tend to treat women poorly and are rife with sexism. To give one example, India.

    (Cont`d)
  20. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 9:26 pm
    (Cont`d)

    What`s next? Are we to apply the free market ideology to a father`s hugs of his child? Clearly, in many households, the children crave the attention more than the adults are willing to dispense it.

    While I`m sure you could apply a supply and demand curve to fathers hugging their children--just as you can apply it to men and women having sex--it seems more than a bit of a stretch.

    Or, in other words, any household where a parent`s hugs are viewed as a commodity is likely to be a bizarre and unhealthy environment. Much the same, I`d argue, as any adult relationship where the woman is encouraged to think of sex as a taboo treat that she should measure out to her husband as a reward.
  21. Profile photo of CodeJockey
    CodeJockey Male 40-49
    5606 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 9:33 pm
    Madduck, Human
    In an industrialized nation, being married has little positive effect outside of the emotional, being a financial and operational limiter in the actual.

    If one doesn`t see companionship as more valuable than savings and "being able to takeoff to wherever, whenever" then, there`s no incentive.

    Additionally, of people who really desire a "commitment to companionship," fewer people are seeing value in ceremony.
  22. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 9:41 pm
    Well Squirz, I barely have an opinion on this particular video, firstly. It`s very meh to me. But the idea of sex as a service that can be bought and sold is something that does happen. But it also happens that it can be exchanged for free, and the desire to have it certainly isn`t all one way. Your hugging analogy is valid and relevant to this.

    But personally when I think about the economics of sex, I`m not thinking so much of "Free Market" principles as the study of Behavioral Economics, which is kind of a mid-way point between Economics and Psychology.
  23. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 10:01 pm
    @ Andrew155: I agree. Behavioral economics is a lot more germane than free-market principles.

    One other thing to throw into the mix here. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that the view of guys-want-it/girls-not-so-much is *very* much a high-school perspective. By the time you hit 40, it`s a whole different ballgame. The idea that single men and women on the dating scene at 35 or 40 are still behaving as the sexes often do in their teens is more than a little off.
  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:04 pm
    @S4S

    I don`t think that they are saying that sex is entirely a commodity to be sold/bartered by women. Also, we need to keep in mind that they are specifically looking at young couples.

    Here`s what I got from it:

    1. Effective and available contraceptives increase the supply of sex by decreasing the potential consequences.
    2. Historically and on the average, young men have a higher sex drive than young women. Therefore, in consensual relationships, it is more likely that the woman has greater "bargaining" leverage.
    3. If more sex is available, then AVERAGE leverage (price) decreases.

    Do you find any of those points to be disagreeable? If not, then their argument seems valid.
  25. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:11 pm
    (Cont.)

    As for the hugs, I don`t think that they are trying to imply that sex or hugs as a commodity. Rather, they are trying to say "here`s what the average human reaction will likely be if this changes".

    So, I think we can look at supply and demand for attention/hugs and how change in one affects the situation without suggesting that attention is simply a commodity to be bought and sold.

    Also, what`s with the free-market ideology stuff? Supply and demand curves are used in microeconomics, not macro. These curves are used by every branch of macro.
  26. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:26 pm
    @ HumanAction: I already conceded the point with Andrew that free-market principles was a red herring I oughtn`t to have introduced.

    Here`s my main problem with the video: It depicts marriage as a "price" that a man pays in order to have sex. That is about as Puritanical and outdated a view as I`ve come across on the internet. Speaking for myself and every male friend I currently have, married and single, marriage is something we happily enter into--if we`re lucky enough to find the right partner--for the companionship and love. It`s not a "price"; it`s a gift.
  27. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:42 pm
    @S4S

    It depicts marriage as a "price" that a man pays in order to have sex.
    Is that so far off though? Again, we need to remember that they aren`t saying that "voila, you pay marriage, you get sex!" Rather, they`re saying that sex is an important part of a relationship and that it is desired. Because it is desired, then there is the potential for leverage. Because the average young man desires it more than the average young woman, young women - on the average - have more leverage.

    Therefore, young women - on the average - have more capacity to require young men to attain certain standards (for example, marriage...) before having sex.

    I know this all sounds crass, outdated, and Puritanical. However, none of that changes whether or not it`s logically consistent. I have yet to see something pointed out as illogical and haven`t noticed any mistakes myself, either.
  28. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:47 pm
    @S4S

    Let me ask you this: when you were a young man, would you have married, let alone dated, your current wife if she told you that she`d never have sex with you?

    Now, be honest. I know we all want to sound like good guys and say that we`d still be with our wives and girlfriends even without sex, but we wouldn`t. If we knew that there was a 0% chance we`d ever have sex with them, we wouldn`t even start dating them.

    If you still refuse to concede that point, then at least consider it from the perspective of the average young man.

    Given this, then we can clearly see that sex is a component that we essentially require to enter a relationship. So, it isn`t fair to say that you entered it just for the "companionship and love" when we know full well that there are many other essential requirements - including sex.
  29. Profile photo of xbx214
    xbx214 Male 18-29
    956 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:54 pm
    This was so feminist, my balls hurt from the liberal knobsucking my eyes received from this awful video. If you don`t mind, i`m going to stay balls heavy dominating my women. drat out of here with that matriarchy coup d`etat bullcrap
  30. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 1, 2014 at 11:57 pm
    @ HumanAction: Hmmm. I dunno. Frankly, I`m getting a little lost here. LOL.

    Some of this video`s points I think are valuable; most, I think, are off-base. For example, I definitely think the sexual revolution has changed the way people approach marriage, and I gave my grandparents` happy marriage as an example of that. They met in the backcountry of North Carolina in the 1920s. Neither had much experience of dating and they were the love of each other`s lives.

    But the mindset that seems to be behind this video--sex is a commodity dispensed by women to enthusiastic men for the price of marriage--is an enormous step backward. Again, look at cultures where women`s sexuality is treated this way--a precious commodity for men to fight over and "win" by paying a "price"--and you`ll see cultures where women are isolated, controlled, and manipulated. Think India and much of the Middle East.
  31. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:05 am
    @ Xbx214: "Feminist"? How do you figure that? It seems to me one of the main messages of the video is "Life for women got sucky because modern contraception has led them to have sex too much."

    How on Earth is *that* "feminist"?
  32. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:13 am
    @ HumanAction: (W)hen you were a young man, would you have married, let alone dated, your current wife if she told you that she`d never have sex with you?
    I`m divorced, alas. But to answer your question: I wouldn`t have married a woman whom I was incompatible with sexually because... well, that`s all a part of companionship.

    I hardly see how that makes the case that marriage should be viewed as a "price" one pays for sex.

    Trust me, I get where you`re coming from. But I`d encourage you to *not* get too enamoured of this economic model of marriage. It`s really the wrong way to look at it; doing so, you`d be setting yourself up for failure. I`d advise my own son what I`m about to tell you: Don`t enter into a marriage if, in your heart of hearts, you think you`re paying a "price" by saying your vows. If you don`t regard it as a gift, you shouldn`t be stepping up on that altar.
  33. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:18 am
    @S4S

    Again, look at cultures where women`s sexuality is treated this way
    Ah, I think I see where we differ.

    I didn`t get that at all from this video. To me, it seemed less like "this is how we should look at this and treat women" and more like "this is just the way it is".

    I don`t think women *should* be treated like sex objects, and I don`t think that women *should* have more leverage in deciding when to have sex. Nonetheless, that`s the way it is. It`s very obvious that women have more leverage to decide when to start having sex in our society.

    I`m also not saying that any of this is morally right or wrong, and I`m not saying that anyone should do this or that. What I am saying is that I can`t point to a specific part of their analysis and say that it`s wrong because <insert logical fallacy, contradictory data, incorrect assumption...>. Therefore, it`s valid.
  34. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:19 am
    Ok, as usual I went to bed. But- yeah- I get what they purport to be saying. It`s just that this kind of video undoubtedly has this message- sex, hair, food can be treated as a commodity and are valuable. BUT..the implications they reach are, I believe false, as the lack of marriage etc has more to do with freedom of choice due to increased secularisation than contraception.it also reduces a womans sexuality to an asset which must be ( here we go with the culture bit..) HUSBANDED...it claims to be academic and rigorous but - it isn`t really is it?? It is coming up with causation without even really proving correlation. It does it to put a veneer over the underlying message- which is that marriage is desirable, sexuality is a commodity to be traded.etc.. this in it`s current from is more unpleasant that crap like the Red Pill stuff because it is more subtle. You put up a bit that says girls are cheap tarts who should be forced to cook clean and bear childre we all rise in outrage- this-
  35. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:24 am
    @S4S

    I hardly see how that makes the case that marriage should be viewed as a "price" one pays for sex.
    It wasn`t my intention to demonstrate that marriage *should* be viewed as a "price" for sex.

    Rather, I was demonstrating that the implication that you married simply for "companionship and love" was invalid as there are many other important requirements for a successful relationship.

    Again, I think you`re missing my point. I`m not saying anything *should* be this or *should* be that. Also, I`m not saying that anything is morally right or wrong.

    I`m saying that their argument is valid. I can`t find a mistake in it. As such, I have no basis to reject it. Therefore, until given a proper counter-argument that invalidates a piece of their analysis, I must agree with it.

    Otherwise, I`d be blindly dismissing it without having a just reason to.
  36. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:25 am
    aargh- over. this people read and digest as it seems reasonable. Not really though is it. Women and men are equal, equal partners choose to live together (or not) they do not use leverage to get what they want, to imply so takes us back to the50`s and back.. Our sexuality is ours- not to be traded for anything- I am not- YOU are not a commodity unless you explicitly state so before the transaction. I find bio truths to be worrisome because by reducing the sexes to the mean we remove the nuances which make us human, make us complex, and indeed make us what we ARE. This does that, it then overlays a discreet morality in an attempt to control behaviour. Horrible, horrible......
  37. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:34 am
    @madduck

    equal partners choose to live together (or not) they do not use leverage to get what they want, to imply so takes us back to the50`s and back..
    I`d very much so disagree; it isn`t right to do it, but I see it all the time.

    I just had a woman (partner`s girlfriend) spend a week with us because she was mad at her husband. She even threatened that she would leave him.

    She used that threat as leverage to do the things she wasn`t able to do normally. Essentially, she used it to get a mini-vacation away from her child and husband while simultaneously treating herself to a host of expensive luxuries (massages, sushi, day at spa...).

    Of course, this isn`t right. However, people do it; it is human nature. I don`t think it`s a stretch to extrapolate from that into the realm of sex.
  38. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:38 am
    ~crawls into Madduck`s lap for a snuggle~

    Well, at least *you* get it. =^.^=
  39. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:42 am
    Actually, I just came up with a different way to look at it.

    How often do you think the "I`m mad at you so I`m going to withhold sex" stereotype happens? I bet that it`s fairly common.

    What does that mean though?

    Well, she`s saying that "you did something I don`t like, so I am punishing you by withholding sex."

    To me, that`s also saying "Do not do this again, or I will withhold sex from you."

    Isn`t that leveraging sex to get something? If so, then we must conclude that sex - at the very least - can be used as a commodity.

    Just to cover my ass - for the umpteenth time - I`m not saying that such behavior is morally good. I`m just saying that this happens, and it is the way it is.
  40. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:43 am
    @S4S

    Well, at least *you* get it.
    LOL. Congratulations, you actually got an eye roll from that.
  41. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:48 am
    @ HumanAction: I`m not denying that there are:

    > some men who view sex as a gift given by a woman, instead of something that is shared;
    > some men who regard marriage as a "price" for sex;
    > some women who use sex as a way to get what they want.

    There are an abundance of screwed up people out there with an unhealthy attitude toward sex. And the mindset behind this video seems to play right into it.
  42. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:53 am
    @ HumanAction: Congratulations, you actually got an eye roll from that.
    LOL. I live to entertain.
  43. Profile photo of furrything
    furrything Male 50-59
    1310 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:56 am
    That guy`s a super artist!
  44. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 1:13 am
    *** tucks Squrlz in dressing gown pocket**** Okay human- just because some people treat sex as a commodity, possibly because they believe rubbish like this is sensible truth, does NOT mean we should applaud a set of people twisting data to make it seem not only right but natural. women have sex because they are horny. because they desire a man- THE man. Not the man with the biggest wallet.. not when they earn their wage and pay their way. To suggest they need sex to trade as they have nothing else is abhorrent. If more sex is available- then more sex is had.. it doesn`t `devalue` it is NOT a finite resource. I think you are mistaking what you are seeing in this clip. It is NOT a scientific rigorous explanation of how things are AT ALL. This is a thinly distinguished effort to get young girls to conserve their precious lady parts for the most worthy man- for moral reasons- NOT scientific. To reassure you- do please check out their website, their religious agenda shines through clearly..
  45. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 1:19 am
    `1. Effective and available contraceptives increase the supply of sex by decreasing the potential consequences.`- cart before horse here. show me where they prove they are right and I am wrong???
    `2. Historically and on the average, young men have a higher sex drive than young women. Therefore, in consensual relationships, it is more likely that the woman has greater "bargaining" leverage. `- Studies showing this are more likely to show cultural expectations- they give no sources worth a damn. again...I maintain this is NOT a biological fact- merely a cultural expectation.
    By your arguments this whole thing could equally apply to food preparation...
  46. Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 7:22 am
    Feminism destroys the true male/female archetype. This video is proof.
  47. Profile photo of bdowner60
    bdowner60 Male 40-49
    593 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 8:12 am
    Left out that sex for her is used for manipulation and control, therefore this whole demonstration is bogus!
  48. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 8:56 am
    some of you have real issues, also sounds like pretty dire sex lives...
  49. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 9:02 am
    @madduck

    does NOT mean we should applaud a set of people twisting data
    I don`t think it`s possible for you to have missed all the places I stated that I`m not suggesting we *should* do anything. I`m only saying that this is a valid argument until demonstrated otherwise.

    women have sex because they are horny
    Of course. However, that is not the only reason people have sex.

    Not the man with the biggest wallet
    Some women do this. Remember, that`s the entire point. Nobody is saying that all women do this or that.

    it doesn`t `devalue` it is NOT a finite resource
    Of course... I`m not sure where you got a different impression.

    It is NOT a scientific rigorous explanation
    FFS. I didn`t say that it was. Where are you getting this from? I said that the argument is valid since it has not been effectively contradicted.
  50. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 9:09 am
    @madduck

    cart before horse here
    Agreed. This is what I`ve been looking for the entire time. I`ve been waiting for someone to say "Hey, they made this point and here`s why I don`t think it`s correct."

    However, it stands to reason. If consequences are lowered for a desired action, then that action occurs more frequently. For example, if they invent a chocolate that is healthy and cannot make someone fat, it stands to reason that chocolate consumption will increase. Yes?

    they give no sources worth a damn. again
    Well, they don`t have to. It is very obvious. You`re basically asking them to prove that bread is made out of flour; it goes without saying.
  51. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 9:11 am
    From WebMD:

    1. Men think more about sex.
    2. Men seek sex more avidly. <--- Remember, averages.

    WebMD and Their Sources
  52. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 10:39 am
    Okay- start at the beginning (never at my best when i get up dear). Just because something stands to reason does not make it true. Contraception has been available for donks- but only to married couples- it took societal attitudes to change before unmarried women could get it- which does debunk that bit a fair bit. The bit about rigour- check out their claims.. about the whole shebang- really they claim academic rigour. Now- they SAY they are making claims about the way things ARE.. and what they say is that women have devalued the market for their product by selling it cheap... I contest that. They suggest they are talking about averages- problem IS that those averages ( means?) are self reported, thus not reliable - for a site which claims rigour? Mainly though I contest the unspoken stuff they don`t say but imply. As I said- this is NOT what it purports to be.. very far from it.
  53. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 11:00 am
    @madduck

    Just because something stands to reason does not make it true.
    Statements like this drive me nuts. It`s very similar to saying "Everything you said sounds right, but it just doesn`t work that way!" What nonsense. If something is reasonable, then we agree with it. Yes, there`s a chance that something reasonable isn`t true. But, to claim so means you`re operating on faith rather than reason.

    I contest that
    ... but WHY? On what grounds? Where is the flaw in their argument? What can you show me that demonstrates that their claim is untrue?

    It`s not fair to just say "I contest that." Why do you contest that?

    Mainly though I contest the unspoken stuff
    Doesn`t that seem silly to you though? You`re literally saying that you disagree with the things that they didn`t say. How does that seem reasonable?
  54. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 11:11 am
    Wow, just saw this video today. Complete BS, ask Hilary Clinton if the pill made her a cheap whore or a successful politician that wasnt burdened with a pregnancy every year until her body quit.

    And what the heck, bees and pesticides? What kind of word salad argument is this "awesome" institution trying get me to buy into, buy diamond rings from DeBeers, I`m doing things wrong and not paying for sex?

    You would have to throwout everything you know and see to believe this drivel.
  55. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 11:18 am
    for quite a while it stood to reason that bad air- miasma- caused disease, and that bodily humours where the key to treating diseases.. I just gave you a perfect example of why this does not hold.. they blame availability of contraception for the `price` of sex going down. Not so, for reasons given below. and again- I contest the idea of devaluing a market because it assume sex was previously a limited market and it is now not, which would be okay of sex was a finite resource. It isn`t, and has always been freely available.. you could put down hard cash rather than a ring, chance it which many people did, force it- again, not popular but housemaids learned to be careful. The consequences of unmarried sex are NOT due to a lack of pregnancy but a lack of stigma..in `63 my mother HAD to marry... by 65 she didn`t... once societal attitudes changed contraception became easier to get for unmarried women.
  56. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 11:19 am
    cont.....I contest the unspoken stuff because it is dishonest. You claim to be a body of religious people presenting an argument for chastity and marriage- go for it- people can pick holes in your argument, we all know where you stand-no problem. You makes claims about your mission- ` to be a leading resource for tested, rigorous academic research on questions of family, sexuality, social structures and human relationships.`- then present an unsupported and very unacademic argument for the same thing- well then I take issue because you are, quite simply, lying.
  57. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 12:58 pm
    @madduck

    I just gave you a perfect example of why this does not hold..
    You`re entirely missing the point. If you hear something and think "hey, that sounds right - at least, I can`t see any particular issue with it" and then also think "but I don`t agree" then you`re simply partisan, single-minded, and biased. You refuse to entertain the argument despite finding it reasonable and consistent. Yes, it may end up being untrue; however, at that time, to refuse it would be a blind dismissal.

    Now, you`re making up quite a few things and arguing against them. These are called straw men in logic. I will list them in a following post.

    Additionally, you have argued that, because you don`t like the organization, the argument is invalid. Again, this is a logical fallacy: ad hominem.
  58. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 1:07 pm
    Here is a list of things you`ve argued against that were not stated in the video. These are straw men arguments, as they invent a position and then argue against it; of course, this is silly.

    "The idea that sex is a commodity?" - They don`t say this anywhere. In fact, they specifically say "let`s THINK about sex as an exchange."

    "Mainly though I contest the unspoken stuff they don`t say but imply." - You can`t contest something that isn`t.

    "which is that marriage is desirable, sexuality is a commodity to be traded" - They specifically say that "nobody`s saying this is the way it ought to be..."

    "Women and men are equal" - What? No they aren`t.

    "they do not use leverage to get what they want" - Nobody claimed this.

    "women have sex because they are horny" - They specifically say that "men and women both enjoy sex."

    ...
  59. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 1:11 pm
    "Not the man with the biggest wallet.. not when they earn their wage and pay their way." - Nobody said this.

    "To suggest they need sex to trade as they have nothing else is abhorrent." - Nobody said this.

    "it is NOT a finite resource" - Nobody said this.

    " This is a thinly distinguished effort to get young girls to conserve their precious lady parts for the most worthy man- for moral reasons- NOT scientific." - Nobody said this.

    "I contest that." - Blind dismissal. Please provide a counter-argument.

    "It isn`t, and has always been freely available" - Nobody said otherwise. Well, freely isn`t the right word.

    "once societal attitudes changed contraception became easier to get for unmarried women" - Nobody said otherwise. Again, nowhere does anyone say that the ONLY reason is contraceptive. You made that up.
  60. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 1:17 pm
    "I contest the unspoken stuff because it is dishonest." - You cannot contest something that isn`t.

    "You claim to be a body of religious people presenting an argument for chastity and marriage" - Lady, I`m not religious in the slightest. Once again, you made that up. You don`t need to pick sides to objectively evaluate an argument. I hope you realize this.

    "You makes claims about your mission" - Lady, this isn`t my mission. I`ve constantly stated otherwise.

    I hope you look at this and understand how little sense you`ve made thus far. You keep inventing positions and argue against them. This is not a proper way to argue.

    I understand that you feel emotionally connected and that you are defensive for some reason. Please, cast that aside, stop making assumptions, and discuss what is being said, rather than criticizing what isn`t being said.
  61. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    March 2, 2014 at 11:20 pm
    no claims made about you dear- do what I ver soecifiaccly asked- check out the website. I have asked several times... and quoted straight from it. P.s- I can do quite well at logic, close reading, arguing premises- some of which are hidden. etc. I is, actually, what I do for half my time.
  62. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14544 posts
    March 3, 2014 at 1:29 am
    "Female solidarity" they spoke of is bull. It was like the Taliban. Society shunning women who were even vaguely suspected of compromising `morality` laws. All under the guise of religion. "She failed to run when he smiled at her; pour kerosene on her and set her ablaze."
  63. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14544 posts
    March 3, 2014 at 1:31 am
    Always book a hooker whenever you plan a date. Either for before or after. That way you`re not desperate to score. The cheap amongst you can pre-fap e.g There`s Something About Mary. This goes double once you`re married and she thinks she has you by the balls.

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