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Date: 03/07/14 09:34 AM

103 Responses to ACA Trickle Down Starting [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 7:59 am
    Link: ACA Trickle Down Starting - Restaurant adds 1% surcharge to bill to cover ACA costs...And let Obamacare begin.
  2. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:38 am
    This is racist.
  3. Profile photo of Wayoldman
    Wayoldman Male 50-59
    72 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:54 am
    Not making a political statement huh. Then why show it on the bill. most people who work in the resturant industry barely make minimum wage anyway and they sure don`t show that on the bill
  4. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:09 am
    Ok, put the other expenses there too. How is it fair to put healthcare and not your store space rent in there? And tell us how much that piece of meat cost you and tells us your profit margins too. Taxes, don`t know if it`s there in USA, it often is allready in there.

    21 dollars end sum and ACA is 20 cents? Does not sound like they have to close their doors because of that, even if they don`t raise prices..

    And that pic on the post, lol.. You DO have a disastrous system if it needs all that to work. Or more likely, someone just linked everything together, probably after two more levels of involvement every person in USA has their name up there..
  5. Profile photo of DrShrinker
    DrShrinker Male 40-49
    43 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:17 pm
    Infowars? LMAO.
  6. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:17 pm
    1. So if I spend $40 then I am charged an extra 40 cents so that the business`s employees don`t have to live in constant fear of a crippling ailment they can`t afford to take care of? Great! Carry on.

    2. So a business had an expense and raised prices accordingly? SHOCKING! Headline news. So if they need to have the oven fixed I`m SURE they will add an "oven fix surcharge" to the bill. No? Gee I wonder if they are trying to make a political statement?
  7. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:18 pm
    @HG

    So if I spend $40 then I am charged an extra 40 cents so that the business`s employees don`t have to live in constant fear of a crippling ailment they can`t afford to take care of?
    It`s just one very specific instance. We can`t extrapolate that all companies will need to raise prices by the same percentage. For example, the article also referenced two instances of 5% surcharges. Interesting that you used the single-case of 1%, though.

    So a business had an expense and raised pric3s accordingly? SHOCKING!
    That was the entire point. Economists argued that the ACA would lead to an increase in prices, a loss of employee benefit (or employment), or both. Many non-economists dismissed the argument. Yet, here we are.
  8. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:28 pm
    HumanAction

    "Interesting that you used the single-case of 1%, though."

    Didn`t even click the link. I was basing it off the description and that I already read the story about that restaurant that added the 1% surcharge a week ago.

    "Economists argued that the ACA would lead to an increase in prices"

    No sh.it. Guess what ELSE would lead to an increase in prices? ANYTHING else. If electricity prices, gas prices, tomato prices, sausage prices, etc went up then a pizza place`s prices would also rise. It took an economist to tell you that?

    If a place DIDN`T offer insurance to employees before and now has to OF COURSE their prices will go up.

    The "non-economists" that dismissed the "argument" you are referring to is that conservatives said healthcare costs would go up for businesses ALREADY offering insurance, which has NOT been the case.
  9. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:33 pm
    HumanAction

    We`ve already been round and round on this before.

    I am thrilled that an entire group of americans who work hard and provide a service are now able to actually get healthcare.

    I don`t give a f.uck if my pizza costs a couple dollars more or my cheeseburger is an extra 30 cents.

    I care more about the people in my society than I do about my bank account. Call me crazy.
  10. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    @HG

    Firstly, calm down man.

    If a place DIDN`T offer insurance to employees before and now has to OF COURSE their prices will go up.
    Isn`t that the point? They were forced to do something that increased their costs, and therefore, prices are increasing.

    which has NOT been the case
    Stop confusing healthcare and healthcare insurance. Health insurance costs have been increasing for the majority. Remember, this is mandated health insurance, not universal healthcare - a very large difference.

    I am thrilled that an entire group of americans who work hard and provide a service are now able to actually get healthcare.
    What about the many people who aren`t as well off as you, and aren`t poor enough to qualify for subsidies? They`re getting screwed.


  11. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 12:56 pm
    @HG

    I don`t give a f.uck if my pizza costs a couple dollars more or my cheeseburger is an extra 30 cents.
    By your own admission, you`re much better off than the average citizen - who will feel more impact from increased costs.

    You`re essentially saying "f*ck them, i`ll be fine."

    Yes, very kind of you.
  12. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32785 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:39 pm
    @Wayoldman: Everything on a bill needs to be clearly explained, eh?

    @CreamK: Of course they could "hide" this new expense with a higher price, but it`s a free country and they CHOOSE not to.

    Tacking on extra TAXES hurts the POOR most of all, that`s an undeniable fact. ObamaCare is a tax, it`s hurts the poor, the rich aren`t even affected by it.

    Facts. Get acquainted with them.
  13. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:43 pm
    HumanAction

    "By your own admission, you`re much better off than the average citizen - who will feel more impact from increased costs."

    Eating out is not a necessity. If you could afford to eat out, but now you can`t because the price went up a buck, then you couldn`t actually afford to eat out to begin with.

  14. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:47 pm
    HumanAction

    "Health insurance costs have been increasing for the majority"

    I don`t agree with this. Maybe for people who had bare bones plans and their plan went up because the bare bones plan went away. However the apples to apples plans are NOT increasing.

    Individual accounts are completely irrelevant in a debate, but I can tell you that my insurance has gone down, it has for my children, my parents, and my brother as well.

    Have you actually priced out a plan for yourself on the marketplace and compared it to your current plan?

  15. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:49 pm
    5Cats

    "Tacking on extra TAXES hurts the POOR most of all, that`s an undeniable fact."

    Bulls.hit. Sales tax maybe. Poor people don`t pay income tax, or estate tax, or capital gains tax, or corporate tax so don`t act like ALL taxes hurt the poor.

    That is something rich people have convinced you of because THEY don`t want to pay taxes.
  16. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:51 pm
    5Cats

    "Everything on a bill needs to be clearly explained, eh?"

    The point he was making is that out of ALL the costs the restaurant has such as electricity, water, food, wages, advertising, etc they chose ONE to line item on their bill. That is just to make a statement.
  17. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:53 pm
    @HG

    Eating out is not a necessity
    You`re trolling of course. Do you really think that only fast food restaurants are being forced to provide health insurance? Of course not.

    Maybe for people who had bare bones plans and their plan went up because the bare bones plan went away.

    Individual accounts are completely irrelevant in a debate
    You do know that, if you *can* get health insurance from your employer, you are not eligible for subsidies, right?

    So, all these borderline-poor people who will be getting health insurance from their employees (whenever they stop delaying that mandate - lol), won`t be eligible for subsidies. However, they will be eligible for increased prices everywhere they shop.
  18. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:56 pm
    @HG

    but I can tell you that my insurance has gone down, it has for my children, my parents, and my brother as well
    Everyone I know has had the exact opposite experience. In my case, we get insurance through my gf`s employer. Starting this year, despite the fact that we have ample HSA savings, our HDHP rates rose 3-fold. It is now nearly as expensive as an HMO.

    Have you actually priced out a plan for yourself on the marketplace and compared it to your current plan?
    I`m not eligible for anything as I already have health insurance. I feel sorry for couples like me who do not make as much as I do; they`re getting boned.
  19. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3489 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 1:59 pm
    Come on guys the ACA is working so well the president is going outside his powers just do delay all the parts that really matter, just so we can savor the prosperity when it`s fully implemented.

    And I mean if its not economically possible for insurance companies, we`ll just bail them out and blame them later. Because thats what a viable long term strategy looks like. (end of sarcasm)
  20. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:00 pm
    HumanAction

    "In my case, we get insurance through my gf`s employer. I`m not eligible for anything as I already have health insurance."

    Wait. What? Are you saying you can`t cancel your current insurance and enroll in a plan on the marketplace?
  21. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:04 pm
    HumanAction

    "You`re trolling of course. Do you really think that only fast food restaurants are being forced to provide health insurance? Of course not."

    Of course not. We`re talking about the restaurant examples in the article. Restaurants will have the highest impact because their employees are almost universally uninsured and they have the highest number of employee / customer ratio.

    A grocery store, for example, has FAR fewer employees for every customer so the price increase per customer will be considerably less.
  22. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:05 pm
    @HG

    Are you saying you can`t cancel your current insurance and enroll in a plan on the marketplace?
    I`m sure I could, but what sense would that make? I am above the income levels that qualify for subsidies.

    However, if I were not self-employed and my employer offered health insurance, then no, I cannot cancel it and opt for individual insurance. If your employer offers "affordable health insurance" then you must get it there.

    Yay, ACA!
  23. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:08 pm
    @HG

    Restaurants will have the highest impact because their employees are almost universally uninsured and they have the highest number of employee / customer ratio.
    Not if you consider how often people go out to eat as compared to other things.

    For example, we eat out - at most - once a month. We go to the grocery store - at least - twice a week.

    Additionally, we spend far more at the grocery store.

    So, a smaller percentage increase at the grocery store can still hurt someone more than a larger percentage increase somewhere else.

    Same with gas, department stores, large purchases... etc.
  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:13 pm
    @HG

    Regardless, that`s nothing more than trying to sidestep the issue.

    Some people are not as well-off as you or me and cannot afford for the cost of living to increase. If everything went up 1%, you`d say "oh well! it`s worth it."

    People who are already living day-to-day and cannot afford to give up an additional 1% of their income get boned. What about them? If they had health insurance before this, then they`re not even getting anything out of it; they`re just getting higher prices.
  25. Profile photo of Sonsglow
    Sonsglow Male 18-29
    201 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm
    Ah, linking to Alex Jones. Looks like someone never learned how to evaluate sources.
  26. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:34 pm
    I`m sure I could, but what sense would that make? I am above the income levels that qualify for subsidies.

    I don`t qualify for subsidies. My insurance is STILL cheaper. Yours might be as well.

    "People who are already living day-to-day and cannot afford to give up an additional 1% of their income get boned. What about them? If they had health insurance before this, then they`re not even getting anything out of it; they`re just getting higher prices."

    I suppose. Trade off is all those people who could have never gotten healthcare before now get to.

    I view that as a good tradeoff. Doesn`t mean I`m right. Just my opinion.
  27. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:36 pm
    HumanAction

    "Let`s look at it this way. Here is worst case scenario for our situations:

    Person 1 is your situation (with ACA). They have health insurance already but are right on the brink. Their cost of living goes up 1% and they have to make minor cutbacks to keep their head above water.

    Person 2 (without ACA) They work 12 hours a day at restaurants just to make ends meet. They cannot afford to buy health insurance and their employer doesn`t offer it. They get cancer. They die.
  28. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:50 pm
    @HG

    Yours might be as well.
    Every estimation I can find for my age suggests it would be several times more expensive.

    kff.org has a calculator that estimates the same price insurance for me alone and we currently spend on both of us.

    Here is worst case scenario for our situations
    You`re assuming 1%, which is just an arbitrary number we used earlier. Additionally, you`re refusing the acknowledge the difference in number of people affected.

    I`d suspect very many more people to be in your first case scenario than in the second case scenario.
  29. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32785 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:55 pm
    Bulls.hit. Sales tax maybe.

    MAYBE? @holygod is there a "sales tax exemption" in the USA for the poor? NOT!

    Every tax on business is passed down to the consumer, PERIOD.

    >>Gas tax, drives ALL prices up, hurts the poor. They don`t need to drive to pay. Transit, any item moved by truck, plane or train and they pay!

    >>Utility taxes, drives all prices up AND the poor pay them too!

    You cannot possibly deny that taxes hurt the poor FAR more than they hurt the rich. And ObamaCare is a tax, which hurts the poor. Period.

    You`ve offered nothing to dispute this. Eating out? Really?? ALL FOOD will cost more because of ObamaCare. And clothing. Everything!

    they chose ONE to line item on their bill. That is just to make a statement.

    Not disputing that, just pointing out that it`s perfectly legal & legitimate.
  30. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 2:56 pm
    @HG

    Trade off is all those people who could have never gotten healthcare before now get to.
    Also, two points of interest here:

    1. Most hospitals that I am aware of will offer some financial discount and/or credit to cancer patients who are uninsured. While they can technically refuse non-emergency treatment, most would rather provide the treatment and deal with the bankruptcy/collections instead of a lawsuit. At least, this is according to the two nurses in my family.

    2. Health insurance and healthcare are different things. Having health insurance does not guarantee healthcare. Health insurance wanted my niece to receive palliative care after birth, which would have resulted in her death. They refused to cover the surgeries.
  31. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 3:00 pm
    @HG

    Now, before we get into the seemingly inevitable "you`re evil because people will die" rants, let`s just talk about that really quickly.

    Everything we choose as a society has human consequences, so that is not a morally consistent point.

    We choose to allow baseball bats and people are killed with baseball bats.

    We choose to allow automobiles and people die from pollution-related diseases.

    We choose to allow people to swim in the ocean and people die from drowning and other causes.

    So, if you were truly, morally opposed to allowing the death of people, then you would oppose almost everything. Therefore, the stance that "it`s good to make some people sacrifice because it saves the lives of others" is completely inconsistent.
  32. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 3:37 pm
    HumanAction

    "Every estimation I can find for my age suggests it would be several times more expensive."

    Stop getting estimations. Go to healthcare.gov and see what plans are available to you. It takes 30 seconds.

    "I`d suspect very many more people to be in your first case scenario than in the second case scenario."

    Really? Think of how many people work at restaurants, retailers, etc in this country. There is a MASSIVE number of people who are paid near minimum wage by an employer that doesn`t offer them insurance.
  33. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 3:44 pm
    HumanAction

    "Now, before we get into the seemingly inevitable "you`re evil because people will die" rants, let`s just talk about that really quickly."

    I don`t think you are evil. I just think you are callous. You almost entirely talk about the economics of a decision. I care more about the affect on people.

    You think the situation in Hong Kong is something to be admired because it is the freeset economy in the world. I think it is detestable because the lack of regulation has created an abysmal slave class that can barely afford to live in cages.

    We just have a difference in opinion. That`s all.
  34. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 3:51 pm
    5Cats

    "You cannot possibly deny that taxes hurt the poor FAR more than they hurt the rich. And ObamaCare is a tax, which hurts the poor. Period."

    My point is that not all taxes do. Luxury tax, estate tax, capital gains tax, for example, do not.

    Other taxes ARE more burdensome on the poor of course, but they also reap a disproportionate benefit. Sure a business may raise the price of goods because of taxes, but the poor get food stamps, medicaid, housing, welfare, etc because of that tax money.

    So grocery prices may go up a bit because of taxes but the only reason some people can afford groceries in the first place is because of taxes.
  35. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 4:02 pm
    5Cats

    "You cannot possibly deny that taxes hurt the poor FAR more than they hurt the rich. And ObamaCare is a tax, which hurts the poor. Period."

    My point is that not all taxes do. Luxury tax, estate tax, capital gains tax, for example, do not.

    Other taxes ARE more burdensome on the poor of course, but they also reap a disproportionate benefit. Sure a business may raise the price of goods because of taxes, but the poor get food stamps, medicaid, housing, welfare, etc because of that tax money.

    So grocery prices may go up a bit because of taxes but the only reason some people can afford groceries in the first place is because of taxes.
  36. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 4:18 pm
    @HG

    Go to healthcare.gov and see what plans are available to you.
    No; I refuse to be complicit in it. Estimates are fine.

    There is a MASSIVE number of people who are paid near minimum wage by an employer that doesn`t offer them insurance
    ... and they`re almost all teenagers or very young adults. My moms insurance covered my older brother until he was 25, even when he was out of the house - well before the age of Obamacare.

    I just think you are callous.
    I call it practical.

    You almost entirely talk about the economics of a decision.
    I talk about it because it`s important, and most people seem to conveniently forget about economics when it suits them. See: Every minimum wage debate ever.

    created an abysmal slave class that can barely afford to live in cages
    It`s improving though; that`s what I admire.
  37. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 4:21 pm
    @HG

    We just have a difference in opinion. That`s all.
    I agree. Where I take issue is how you paint my difference to be callous towards the plight of other people.

    We differ on how we think humanity, society, and all people best benefit. You seem to care more about some people than others.

    I care about "the means" and you care about "the ends." That is the difference between us.
  38. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 5:02 pm
    HumanAction

    "No; I refuse to be complicit in it. Estimates are fine."

    Well that is just asinine. No wonder there is so much misinformation out there.

    "... and they`re almost all teenagers or very young adults."

    Are you kidding me? When I go to McDonalds, Dennys, Walmart, or the grocery store a majority of the people I see are middle aged. Maybe it is different where you live.
  39. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 5:08 pm
    HumanAction

    "We differ on how we think humanity, society, and all people best benefit. You seem to care more about some people than others."

    See if you would agree with this:

    There is an economic political decision that has two choices A and B.

    A. Will make the top 75% of people 10% better off but the bottom 25% of people 10% worse off.

    B. Will make the top 75% of people 10% worse off but the bottom 25% of people 10% better off.

    You would choose A because statistics and society on the whole improve.

    I would choose B because the people at the bottom need it the most and I think everyone deserves a basic standard of living.

    Would you agree?

    That doesn`t make one of us wrong or evil. You`re just more interested in the society as a whole no matter what happens to specific individuals and I care about specific individuals.
  40. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 5:18 pm
    HumanAction

    "We differ on how we think humanity, society, and all people best benefit. You seem to care more about some people than others."

    See if you would agree with this:

    There is an economic political decision that has two choices A and B.

    A. Will make the top 75% of people 10% better off but the bottom 25% of people 10% worse off.

    B. Will make the top 75% of people 10% worse off but the bottom 25% of people 10% better off.

    You would choose A because statistics and society on the whole improve.

    I would choose B because the people at the bottom need it the most and I think everyone deserves a basic standard of living.

    Would you agree?

    That doesn`t make one of us wrong or evil. You`re just more interested in the society as a whole no matter what happens to specific individuals and I care about specific individuals.
  41. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 5:35 pm
    @HG

    No wonder there is so much misinformation out there.
    Why? The estimates are based on the charts provided by the government. How is that asinine? They`re accurate.

    Maybe it is different where you live.
    Apparently it is. Very few adults work in fast food chains here.

    Would you agree?
    I can`t answer that. What are you doing? If you`re FORCING any INDIVIDUALS, then no.

    It`s actually the opposite as you describe.

    I care about the rights of individuals whereas you care about the status of groups. You`re willing to forcefully take money from some people in order to give it to other people you determine to be more needing.

    I don`t think it`s ever right to forcefully take something from an individual so long as they acquired it legally.
  42. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm
    @HG

    An easy way to determine this is to consider the following question:

    1. In general, do you think it is OK to forcefully take what isn`t yours?

    2. So long as it helps the recipient more than the person you stole from, do you think it is OK to forcefully take what isn`t yours?

    My answers are: no, and no. Why? Because it`s wrong; it violates the rights of that individual. There is no amount of good that can be done that nullifies your misdeed.

    Your answers are clearly: no, and yes. Why? Because you regard the well-being of many people as being more important than the individual rights of some people.

    So, quite literally, it is the opposite of what you described.
  43. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 6:39 pm
    HumanAction

    So you would eliminate taxes and eliminate all social services then right?

    No more welfare, no more medicare, no more medicaid, no more food stamps, etc.

    After all, that is forcibly taking money from some people and distributing it to other people.
  44. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 6:43 pm
    HumanAction

    Plus we can eliminate CPS, foster care, police, firemen, the military, libraries, public schools, public transportation, public roads, national parks, etc, etc, etc.

    If we are going to take a black and white stance that "it`s wrong; it violates the rights of that individual. There is no amount of good that can be done that nullifies your misdeed" then clearly it is wrong to forcibly make anyone pay taxes for anything. Without taxes those things all go away.
  45. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 7:25 pm
    @HG

    So you would eliminate taxes and eliminate all social services then right?
    Yes.

    then clearly it is wrong to forcibly make anyone pay taxes for anything.
    Agreed. Like I said, I don`t manipulate my morality to suit a situation.

    Without taxes those things all go away.
    I completely disagree. Some of those things would disappear - certainly. However, many of those things would be taken up by private businesses and citizens group.

    We have plenty of volunteer fire departments that exist solely on donations of time and capital - for example.

  46. Profile photo of Runemang
    Runemang Male 30-39
    2676 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 7:30 pm
    No surprise there. Increasing costs to employers always ... ALWAYS ... AL-F`ING-WAYS ... gets taken from the employees or the consumers or both.
  47. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 8:24 pm
    Only the uneducated, unintelligent, or uninformed ever supported the ACA.

    Some people are starting to catch a glimpse of the enormous costs this is going to saddle us with, but the worst is yet to come. A lot of people still have no clue what is waiting right around the corner.
  48. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 8:46 pm
    HumanAction

    The world you describe would be a virtual dystopia.

    "many of those things would be taken up by private businesses"

    Oh good. So my house is on fire and Fire Experts Inc. shows up and I get to review their plans and have them run my credit before they put the fire out. AWESOME.
  49. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:04 pm
    @HG

    So my house is on fire and Fire Experts Inc. shows up and I get to review their plans and have them run my credit before they put the fire out
    Does your insurance company "run your credit" before fixing your car?

    Also, I noticed how you completely disregarded the well-established fact that volunteer fire departments exist that currently service many geographical locations.

    It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which people want their lives to be run for them.
  50. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:09 pm
    @HG

    AWESOME.
    Sorry, I don`t whore out my morality. It is wrong to take by coercion that which does not belong to me. Disappointingly, you feel otherwise.
  51. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:23 pm
    HumanAction

    "Also, I noticed how you completely disregarded the well-established fact that volunteer fire departments exist that currently service many geographical locations."

    They still get their equipment from tax dollars. Do you think they all just pool their money to buy a $750,000 fire truck?

    "It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which people want their lives to be run for them."

    Nobody runs my life for me. However I expect the roads to be maintained. I expect that when I call 911 someone answers. I expect that if someone invades my country I am protected. I expect that if my house catches on fire someone will put it out. I expect that if someone is starving they have places to turn. Our society has PROGRESSED to that point.

    It sounds like you just want anarchy. Every man for himself. How can you POSSIBLY think that is a good idea?
  52. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:27 pm
    HumanAction

    "Sorry, I don`t whore out my morality."

    This isn`t about your morals. This is about your principles.

    If there was a group of children that were going to die that night if they didn`t get water and there was a man with a million gallons of water you believe it would be better to let those kids die than to steal a gallon of water for them.

    That doesn`t make you moral. That makes you a sociopath.
  53. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:30 pm
    @HG

    They still get their equipment from tax dollars.
    We have two firehouses that are entirely donated and volunteer.

    It sounds like you just want anarchy.
    No, I want to be free to make my own choices so long as my choices don`t infringe on the rights of others. You want to control people.

    How can you POSSIBLY think that is a good idea?
    This is what really pisses me off about liberals and conservatives and people who want to control others. You want to tell people how to live their lives but you can`t convince them of it. So, like cowards, you decide to hire a bunch of people with guns to come and force people to play by your rules.

    Then somehow, in some twisted world, you think people like me are backwards.

    Your morality gets twisted to suit your needs. Truly, you believe that the ends justifies the means.
  54. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:32 pm
    @HG

    That doesn`t make you moral. That makes you a sociopath.
    Says the man who, when unable to convince others, uses men with guns to force them. Yes, and I`m the sociopath. Bravo.
  55. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:40 pm
    HumanAction

    "No, I want to be free to make my own choices so long as my choices don`t infringe on the rights of others."

    So what if you do? Who is going to stop you?

    In your vision of the world, someone rapes your girlfriend. What happens?
  56. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:44 pm
    HumanAction

    "Says the man who, when unable to convince others, uses men with guns to force them."

    Huh? Society as a whole has decided that schools and police and roads and libraries are good. I`m not the odd one out. You are.

    Plus who is forcing you with guns? Don`t pay your taxes if you don`t want to. I don`t think guns enter the equation.

    If you don`t like society and you would rather give it up so you don`t have taxes then by all means leave. Go live in some african nation with no services or protection and marauding bands of war lords. You won`t have taxes you`ll love it.
  57. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:46 pm
    @HG

    So what if you do? Who is going to stop you?
    Well, I think I should be able to run red-lights at 2AM when I`m the only person on the road. If I do, I could get ticketed. If I continue to, I`ll get arrested.

    What happens?
    If I come in, he dies. You have every right to use force to prevent an act which infringes on the rights of you or others.

    If after the fact, then that is the role of government: to prevent/punish those who infringe on the rights of others.

    Do you mistakenly believe that I want no government to exist? That would be silly and inconsistent with my beliefs.
  58. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:47 pm
    HumanAction

    The point is if you think it is more moral to let a group of children die than it is to steal a gallon of water for them from a man who wouldn`t even notice it was gone than there is something deeply wrong with your conscience and you scare me.

    No joke.

    Don`t get all self righteous when I call you heartless or callous I`m pretty sure almost anyone else would agree.

    THINGS are not more important than PEOPLE.
  59. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:47 pm
    @HG

    Society as a whole has decided that schools and police and roads and libraries are good
    Like fighting the drug war, right?

    I don`t think guns enter the equation.
    Tax evasion. Police officers - with guns - come and get you.

    Go live in some african nation with no services or protection and marauding bands of war lords.
    Ah, and here`s the perpetual "Somalia" straw man. Again, you mistakenly believe that I do not want a government.
  60. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:49 pm
    @HG

    The point is if you think it is more moral to let a group of children die than it is to steal a gallon of water for them from a man who wouldn`t even notice it was gone than there is something deeply wrong with your conscience and you scare me.
    Wow, we are really going through the motions now! We just did Somalia and now we get "the poor children!" line too. Fantastic.

    Of course it is immoral to let children die. There is no more of less moral; that you think so is disturbing. An action can be immoral or moral. If I have the means to prevent the death of children, I will do everything I can to help them.
  61. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:50 pm
    @HG

    THINGS are not more important than PEOPLE.
    All people are valuable. That you think some people deserve to be treated with less respect and less liberty than others is truly disturbing.
  62. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:51 pm
    HA

    "If I do, I could get ticketed"

    You missed my whole point. I`m talking about in your ideal world, who would stop you?

    "Do you mistakenly believe that I want no government to exist?"

    Is this an entirely volunteer government? So the guy who rapes your girlfriend is investigated by volunteer police, tried by a volunteer court, and imprisoned by volunteer guards in a volunteer built prison?

    You already established that if you had your way there would be NO taxes, so how is the government you speak of functioning? I don`t understand.
  63. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:55 pm
    HumanAction

    "If I have the means to prevent the death of children, I will do everything I can to help them."

    EXCEPT you won`t take something from someone else to do it right?

    You said "it violates the rights of that individual. There is no amount of good that can be done that nullifies your misdeed."

    SO if the only way you could save their lives is to steal a gallon of water from someone you would not do it.

  64. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:56 pm
    @HG

    I`m talking about in your ideal world, who would stop you?
    From what? Running red lights at 2AM? Hopefully no one because that`s f*cking stupid.

    Is this an entirely volunteer government?
    Dare to dream, dare to dream. Yes, believe it or not, some people are actually willing to donate their time (for free!) to their community.

    so how is the government you speak of functioning?
    Excise and sales taxes. It worked up until the point when people like you decided we needed to start fighting wars.
  65. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:57 pm
    HumanAction

    "That you think some people deserve to be treated with less respect and less liberty than others is truly disturbing."

    When have I EVER said anything remotely close to that? What I have said is that any one person`s right to life is more important than any one person`s right to property. You disagree.
  66. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:57 pm
    @HG

    EXCEPT you won`t take something from someone else to do it right?
    Correct. I will try to convince them to help, but I cannot hurt them and steal their stuff.

  67. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 9:58 pm
    @HG

    When have I EVER said anything remotely close to that?
    You think some people shouldn`t pay any taxes, and others should.

    How is that not limiting the liberty of one group of people?
  68. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:05 pm
    HumanAction

    "Dare to dream, dare to dream."

    Well that is obviously what you are doing if you think our entire legal system could function on volunteers alone.
  69. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:06 pm
    HumanAction

    "Correct. I will try to convince them to help, but I cannot hurt them and steal their stuff"

    Right. You think one person`s right to property is more important than a group`s right to live.

    That isn`t moral. Sorry. That is insanity.
  70. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:09 pm
    @HG

    Well that is obviously what you are doing if you think our entire legal system could function on volunteers alone
    Like I said before, sales taxes and excise taxes used to work just fine.

    You`re choosing to ignore that part.
  71. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:11 pm
    HumanAction

    "You think some people shouldn`t pay any taxes, and others should."

    Not ta all. I want everyone to pay taxes. I want everyone to be well off enough where they can pay taxes and still maintain a reasonable standard of living. However when people are so impoverished that they cannot afford to pay taxes than I think those lucky enough to be at the top can pay a little extra to balance the equation.

    Everyone needs to contribute to society. Some people contribute with a job they do, some people contribute with taxes, some people do both.

    However it is a give take relationship. The more you get in life the more you give back. The less you get in life the less you give back. Seems to make sense to me.
  72. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:12 pm
    @HG

    That isn`t moral. Sorry. That is insanity.
    Says the man who doesn`t believe in property rights.
  73. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:24 pm
    HumanAction

    "Like I said before, sales taxes and excise taxes used to work just fine."

    Well Federal, State, and Local governments run on about $6 Trillion a year to provide everything as it is now.

    $66 Billion in excise tax + $300 Billion in sales tax. So that covers 6%. Quite a gap left over huh? So we shut down 94% of the government?

  74. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:25 pm
    HumanAction

    "Says the man who doesn`t believe in property rights."

    I don`t believe they are as important as the right to life. Most sane people don`t.
  75. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:31 pm
    @HG

    Well Federal, State, and Local governments run on about $6 Trillion a year to provide everything as it is now.
    Seems like you know what I`m getting at, but decided to play stupid instead. Honestly, do you think I want to keep the governments at their current operating capacities?

    If you need help figuring it out, just go back and read the last few of my comments.

    I don`t believe they are as important as the right to life.
    You have a right to not be killed. You don`t have a right to not die of your circumstances. Do you think otherwise for some reason?
  76. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:34 pm
    HumanAction

    "You have a right to not be killed. You don`t have a right to not die of your circumstances. Do you think otherwise for some reason?"

    1. Yes. I believe every person has the right to live.

    2. My example was children, so kinda hard to blame them for their circumstances.

    3. The founding fathers gave the "right to life" before any other rights, well before they gave the right to free speech or having guns.

  77. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm
    HumanACtion

    "Seems like you know what I`m getting at, but decided to play stupid instead. Honestly, do you think I want to keep the governments at their current operating capacities?"

    I get that you would get rid of tons. Hell, I`d love to get rid of 30% to 40% of it. Would you really get rid of 94%?
  78. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:35 pm
    @HG

    Quite a gap left over huh? So we shut down 94% of the government?
    Imagine what terrible calamities were caused by the lack of income tax prior to 1913! Oh right... never mind.
  79. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:39 pm
    @HG

    Yes. I believe every person has the right to live.
    Do you have a right to not die of thirst, get struck by lightning, get killed by bees, suffocate in mud...?

    Of course not. We wouldn`t be able to let anyone do anything at all if there was a right to life. Instead, we have a right to not have our lives taken by others.

    My example was children, so kinda hard to blame them for their circumstances.
    I never argued otherwise.

    The founding fathers gave the "right to life" before any other rights
    The Constitution is a direction manual for running a government. Anything in it is in regards to the actions of government. So, the right to life in there merely means that government shall not deprive you of that right.
  80. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:43 pm
    *Declaration of Independence not Constitution...
  81. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:45 pm
    Anyways, I`m done for the night. I have work to do in the morning.
  82. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 10:46 pm
    HumanAction


    "Imagine what terrible calamities were caused by the lack of income tax prior to 1913!"

    So you think people were better off then than now?
  83. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    March 7, 2014 at 11:43 pm
    So you think people were better off then than now?

    That is a non-sequitor, society did improve but not because of government.
  84. Profile photo of SephirothA83
    SephirothA83 Male 18-29
    955 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 12:17 am
    where`s the surcharge for inflation
  85. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 2:05 am
    Non-Issue. I`d rather have a minor 1% surcharge to help an employer`s growing pains during the ACA`s growing pains toward the ultimate goal of legislated universal healthcare (I can dream) than paying a mandatory 20% gratuity at a schmuck restaurant.
  86. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 7:02 am
    Cajun247

    "society did improve but not because of government."

    So child labor stopped out of the goodness of employer`s hearts?

    Meatpacking plants stopped using rats and rancid meat to be nice?

    Schools, libraries and roads just appeared out of nowhere?

    I get being libertarian. I get that the government is, in a lot of ways and places, bloated, corrupt, and needs fixing. However you guys take this anti government binge to an insane level.

    Every man for himself anarchy is not a happy thought. There needs to be structure and oversight in society.
  87. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 8:15 am
    @HG

    I noticed you like to use hyperbolic, impossible situations to try and paint the other person as evil, insane, or corrupt. Since I answered your impossible scenario, let`s do one for you. It`s only fair, right?

    It`s the apocalypse. There are two families: the Smiths with 2 adults and 2 children; and the Johnsons with a single woman and 1 child. The Smiths are starving as they did not prepare for the apocalypse. The Johnsons prepared adequately. However, the Johnsons will not share their supplies and are willing to defend their supplies with force.

    Are you REALLY telling me that you`d kill the Johnsons to save the Smiths? After all, you`re saving more people and more children.

    See, that`s insane.
  88. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 8:19 am
    @HG

    So child labor stopped out of the goodness of employer`s hearts?
    Child labor stopped because capitalism generated enough wealth for children to stop working. It is the default human condition to have children work.

    In days gone by, families could not survive without putting children to work. If the government outlawed child labor in those days, it would have made those families starve. Therefore, we can conclude that government does not possess the ability to end child labor.

    Instead, the industrial revolution occurred and a massive amount of wealth was generated. In most western countries, this now meant that 1-2 adults could provide for the entire family. An obvious outcome from this was the diminishing of child labor.

    Government more-or-less came in after the fact and tried to steal the credit. You just happened to fall for it.
  89. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 8:22 am
    @HG

    Meatpacking plants stopped using rats and rancid meat to be nice?
    Consumer rights groups and mass media are adequate here. For example, a lab I work with is accredited by a number of private groups. They enforce standards far more strict than OSHA, the DNR, or the EPA.

    Schools, libraries and roads just appeared out of nowhere?
    Did these things not exist prior to 1913? I`m pretty sure they did.

    Every man for himself anarchy is not a happy thought.
    Once again, you`re the only one talking about anarchy. Is that really how you try to argue? Prop up a false pseudo-insult and go after it? Pity.
  90. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 12:49 pm
    HumanAction

    "Child labor stopped because capitalism generated enough wealth for children to stop working."

    Bull F.ucking S.hit. Where do you get these delusions?

    Child labor ended because of the Great Depression. Adults became so desperate they were willing to work for the same rate as children. Similar to now where adults are willing to take the kinds of minimum wage jobs that used to go to high school and college students.

    Child Labor never came back because of the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.

    You are out of your f.ucking gourd if you think capitalism and the free market stopped child labor themselves. If it wasn`t for LAWS passed and enforced by the GOVERNMENT factories in this country would be full of 8 year olds making 10 cents an hour.

    Know how I KNOW companies would do this and not have any moral qualms with it? Because they do it to kids in other countries.
  91. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 12:53 pm
    HumanAction

    "I noticed you like to use hyperbolic, impossible situations to try and paint the other person as evil, insane, or corrupt."

    You have hard lined black and white positions. I go to hyperbolic, impossible situations to see if there are any circumstances that would cause you to change your position.

    The fact that you said you`d rather let kids die of thirst than steal a gallon of water from someone who has a million gallons is what makes you look evil, insane, and corrupt, not me.

    "Are you REALLY telling me that you`d kill the Johnsons to save the Smiths? After all, you`re saving more people and more children."

    Super easy answer. No. That is life compared to life. Nobody has more right to life than another.

    The theoretical I posed you was life compared to property.
  92. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 12:56 pm
    HumanAction

    "Once again, you`re the only one talking about anarchy. Is that really how you try to argue? Prop up a false pseudo-insult and go after it? Pity."

    You want to get rid of taxes except for sales and excise. Those taxes wouldn`t even cover 1/3rd of our current military, let alone the legal system you still want in place. So ya, until you tell me how you are paying for your tax free world there is going to be anarchy. Judges, clerks, police, guards, etc are not going to work for free. I don`t. You don`t.
  93. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 12:59 pm
    @HG

    Where do you get these delusions?
    Common sense.

    Let me ask you, would you send your children to work if you didn`t have to? Of course not. So, why do you assume most other parents would? Do you really suppose you`re that much better than everyone else?

    The overwhelming majority of parents wouldn`t send their children to work unless it was absolutely necessary for their survival. Guess what? Before capitalism, it was absolutely necessary.

    So, what would have happened if government came in and forced parents not to let their children work in those days? Oh right, they died.

    So, I guess it`s fair to say that capitalism was the necessary element that enabled the end of child labor.

    See? Common sense.
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 1:00 pm
    @HG

    The theoretical I posed you was life compared to property.
    The fact that your morals and principles don`t exist unless they suit your desires is shocking and deplorable. If you were a cop, you`d be the first one to lock up black people for being in the front of the bus. Why? Because you`d rationalize your way into believing it`s righteous.

    Pity.
  95. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 1:01 pm
    @HG

    Those taxes wouldn`t even cover 1/3rd of our current military, let alone the legal system you still want in place.
    I didn`t realize there wasn`t a military or legal system before 1913. How silly of me. (/sarcasm)
  96. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 1:04 pm
    @HG

    factories in this country would be full of 8 year olds making 10 cents an hour.
    Oh right, because all of the other parents are bad parents and would let their children work for 10 cents an hour.

    Not you though; you`re just better than them.
  97. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 2:03 pm
    HumanAction

    "Let me ask you, would you send your children to work if you didn`t have to? Of course not. So, why do you assume most other parents would?"

    Did I say most? No. However there are plenty of families who would. Not to mention all the kids in the foster care system, which you are getting rid of, that will all of a sudden be homeless and need a job.

    "If you were a cop, you`d be the first one to lock up black people for being in the front of the bus."

    Maybe the dumbest f.ucking thing anyone has ever said to me online. That is saying something. Congrats.

    "I didn`t realize there wasn`t a military or legal system before 1913. How silly of me."

    Oh I`m sure the level of military we had in 1913 would be sufficient to stop a foreign invasion by China, Russia, or North Korea. Those 1913 horses would kick the s.hit out of Russian tanks and jets. Moron.
  98. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 2:08 pm
    HumanAction

    I`m all done. You win. I used to respect your opinion as a libertarian, particularly in economic debates. That`s pretty much over.

    I`ve seen how deep your rabbit hole goes. I make fun of the conservative republicans because they wish it was like the 50s. You, apparently wish it was like 1913. Doesn`t matter how much unbelievable suffering there was in this country at that time, you want it so you don`t have to pay taxes. I can`t even fathom that lack of humanity.

    Best wishes.
  99. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 3:42 pm
    @HG

    Did I say most? No.
    We get it though. You`re just better than other people. You`re smarter, more compassionate, and more righteous that the average person. If more people were like you, everything would be dandy. So, it only stands to reason that we should force all those inferiors to be more like you.

    Maybe the dumbest f.ucking thing anyone has ever said to me online.
    I`m pretty sure it`s true. See, you like to force people to do what you want them to. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

    China, Russia, or North Korea
    My God! Are we about to be invaded?!? Oh noes! To think the Pentagon wants to cut the defense budget to pre-WWII numbers! The HORRORS! TEH HORRORS!
  100. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    March 8, 2014 at 3:46 pm
    @HG

    That`s pretty much over.
    LOL. You say this after every debate! I`m pretty sure you`ve stop "respecting my opinion" a dozen times already. Fear not! I am utterly dismayed at the thought of losing your respect. After all, you`re the greatest, most superior person in the world.

    You, apparently wish it was like 1913.
    Non-sequitor again. I wish government was like pre-1913.

    I used to respect your opinion as a control-ist, particularly in economic debates. That`s pretty much over. I`ve seen how far your rabbit hole goes.

    PS. That was one of the silliest, emotionally-driven, utterly butthurt rants I`ve even witnessed. Bravo sir! Bravo.
  101. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    March 10, 2014 at 10:18 am
    And the score so far, folks:

    HumanAction: 1
    HolyGod: 7

    HA is resorting to grade-school sarcasm... It looks like the bout is just about over, folks.
  102. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    578 posts
    March 10, 2014 at 12:10 pm
    I just heard a news story on the radio in to work this AM that Obamacare has amazingly missed the mark on getting insurance for the uninsured (no surprise there, us evil conservatives had said that from day 1). It couldn`t be more clear that Obamacare is doing heart-breaking tragic damage to people, especially the poor. Apparently the world is still fine for some commenting here who are rich enough to afford higher prices (guess what, it`s not just this restaurant, it`ll be all over the place soon enough), but for the lower incomes this will only make a difficult life much more difficult. But I`m glad Obama got to go on his exclusive vacation this week!
  103. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    578 posts
    March 10, 2014 at 12:13 pm
    By they, as a direct result of Obamacare and poor economic policy by Obama and his ilk, I am out nearly $25,000 since 2009 and counting. That`s not Fox News or Rush Limbaugh or the Tea Party, that`s numbers right off my dwindling paycheck. To not realize the staggering damage Obamacare has already caused is the true tragedy.

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