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Category: Misc
Date: 02/23/14 08:12 AM

37 Responses to Who Needs Welfare?

  1. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 8:06 am
    Link: Who Needs Welfare? - Welfare inequality, welfare analysis
  2. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 8:36 am
    We`re all dependent on the government.
  3. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 9:47 am
    Does taking advantage of a government program preclude you from criticizing it?

    It`s an honest question. For example, Hayek criticized Social Security yet also applied for SSI payments. He`s been called a hypocrite, which is understandable.

    Personally, I think every person has an individual and familial responsibility to take advantage of every opportunity. Yet, I still think that taking money from one person and giving it to another is immoral.
  4. Profile photo of pirhomaniak
    pirhomaniak Male 30-39
    208 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 9:57 am

  5. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 9:57 am
    @HA

    I`d have to say no. i think you`d be better suited to criticize it. I think at the same time you are definitely a hypocrite though. Being able to show where some of the stupid ideas and possible ideas that are fully allowed in the system can only go to show how to fix and/or address them.

    If you took advantage of it prior, congratulations you abused the system. That`s how life and economies in general have been run. Certain people get ahead people cry foul then change it for future people so it doesn`t happen again.
  6. Profile photo of Ilikelogic
    Ilikelogic Male 40-49
    550 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 10:24 am
    If you have another 20 minutes here`s the
    TED talk
    of Ananya Roy
    Needless to say i`m a strong proponent of a state guaranteed income for every citizen.
  7. Profile photo of som-tam
    som-tam Male 18-29
    714 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 10:41 am
    complete nonsense of course. How can you compare a middle class net contributor to a totally dependent net receiver?

    But what else are we to expect from a university lecturer? She even manages to shoe-horn in an undertone of racism and sexism into the argument.

    The biggest problem with having an underclass of welfare dependents is that requires mass immigration to fill the jobs that the dependents refuse to do and to tax the tax that is needed for their welfare. Furthermore, the children of the immigrants grow-up and seek out more professional jobs due to parental pressure while the children of the dependents are more likely to follow their parental example. ergo - more dependants and more mass immigration.
  8. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 11:42 am
    Very well thought out and presented. It really is as simple as a pie analogy: when a few hog a disproportionate amount of a finite pie, there is less left over for the many to share. There is no such thing as an infinite amount of wealth just waiting to be created, regardless of what anyone may try to tell you.

    We live in a finite world with finite resources. If 1% of the people take 80% of the resources (wealth), only 20% is left for the remaining 99%. If the "middle class" (roughly 20%, anymore) claims 15% of the remaining pie, that leaves 5%, or less, to the remaining 79% to divvy up. In a world of more than 7 billion people, that means more than 5.5 billion people are left with the smallest pieces of the table scraps dropped by the wealthiest 1% (or, roughly 70 million people). Yeah, real fair. Especially when the pie can only grow by so little every year, and even then is limited in total growth. And given the fact that most new wealth goes to the top 1%
  9. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 11:43 am
    @Som-tam I disagree. There`s a stigma and value put on certain jobs. if you took the pay and standardized it, I bet you`d find people willing to do "mindless, meaningless, hard work" that we pay our immigrants for currently. I think what you are addressing is a different topic all together.

    I`m not sure why you went this route for the discussion as I don`t believe that was the intent of anything I posted. Maybe I`m missing something?
  10. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 11:44 am
    The welfare queen myth
  11. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 11:46 am
    @ normalfreak:

    Right on! Good to see not everyone is buying into the BS.

    And I`m willing to bet you`re a lot like me: not in poverty, or even close. But still a little dismayed at the system of gross inequality.
  12. Profile photo of som-tam
    som-tam Male 18-29
    714 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 11:52 am
    @normalfrek: if you feel that my second point was not relevant what about my first point: that it is ridiculous to compare net contributors getting a tax break with people who are entirely dependent on social payments.

  13. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 12:05 pm
    I live in relative comfort as a Networking Consultant. SO i`m pretty comfortable. I think the inequality is staggering and wrong. I try to advocate change through education.
  14. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 12:31 pm
    @normal

    i think you`d be better suited to criticize it.
    I agree. The reason I ask is because I`m often asked if I accepted federally-subsidized student loads despite by criticisms of them. Many times, people stop the conversation there and refuse to inquire any further.

    However, in that case, I think that student loan availability creates a trap-effect in which the dumping of available cash into a relatively inelastic supply of higher education causes prices to rise - thus making students loans more necessary. Eventually you end up with a system where higher education costs more than anyone can afford, yet everyone borrows to go there.

    @everyone

    I don`t think anyone here is happy with wealth inequality. Rather, I think the debate and disagreement tends to be regarding the ways in which to resolve it, and the ways in which it was created.
  15. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 1:49 pm
    som tam really don`t get it...

    " How can you compare amiddle class net contributor to a totally dependent net receiver?"

    You are talking like if money is given to the poor, it just disappears. You give money to the poor and they will use close to 100% of it on food, housing and other basic expenses, paying electrical bills etc etc. It`s money that is guaranteed to enter circulation. If you plan to give money to the other end of the spectrum, then it disappears. It`s quite literally shipped out of the country ASAP.

    On the rest of your comment, it is VERY clear that you see welfare recipients as unwanted group of lazy, crack smoking and stealing moochers who wont work even when given the opportunity. Person who thinks like that.. your comment is totally understandable. It is also not based on any kind of reality outside FOX news.
  16. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 1:54 pm
    @CreamK

    It`s money that is guaranteed to enter circulation
    Unless it`s deficit spending - which is a completely different discussion - then that money has also been taken out of the economy in the first place. So in a purely economic sense, it is a net-zero at best.

    The problem though is that rarely does our government actually return the collected tax dollars at a 100% rate. Instead, they often squander a large amount of it doing silly things like blowing up sand. So, in practice, it is likely a net-negative in a purely economic sense.
  17. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 1:54 pm
    BTW, the next big supporter of increased minimum wage is going to be... drumroll please... no, drummer is drunk, ok..

    Walmart.

    Why? People who shop at walmarts, don`t have money to shop at walmarts anymore. They`ll get the bare minimum, that`s it... But one thing is perfectly clear: the government is going to end up paying each and every Walmart employee the difference, just like welfare does...

    This is just a prediction..
  18. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 2:13 pm
    I don`t know of this concept of deficit spending, it sound a bit oxymoron, can you spend deficit? English is not my native language.

    So if you take deficit and put it back in to the economy it`s net is zero? It comes from somewhere and it goes somewhere. In that sense, everything is net zero.

    If the government needs to loan money to keep the economy running, there`s more problems than what any kind of welfare can solve. And if there`s deficit on welfare program, it is not addressed in the budget properly.

    So what is this concept, am i even close? Cause it sure doesn`t ring any bells. Government makes a yearly budget that should cover all expenses said government has during the fiscal year. If one of the programs is poorly funded, that issue has to be addressed and corrected. When the whole budget is deficit, government loans money. That makes EACH and every program inside the budget inherently deficit. Right?
  19. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 2:39 pm
    @CreamK

    Deficit spending happens when the government has to borrow money from other countries in order to spend the amount they want to. Essentially the government spends more than they collect, so, to make up the difference, they need to borrow some - which results in an accumulation of debt.

    The economic impact of deficit spending is different than normal spending.

    With normal spending, the government takes some money out of the economy through taxes, and then (hopefully) they give some of it back. If they give it all back, then it`s been a net-zero; they took X amount out and put X amount back in.

    With deficit spending, though, they borrow the money instead of taking it out of the economy. This lets us have more stuff than we can actually afford and thus feels like a net-positive.

    In the long run though, we pay more interest than we get from growth - thus it`s a net-negative.
  20. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 2:44 pm
    @CreamK

    I should also clarify that our government doesn`t only borrow from foreign nations. Rather, they borrow from anyone and everyone.

    They have many ways to issue debt (borrow) such as: bonds, securities, and notes.
  21. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6158 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 3:24 pm
    Ilikelogic-Needless to say i`m a strong proponent of a state guaranteed income for every citizen.

    Ah, so your handle is satirical (or were you going for irony?). Got it.
  22. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 3:48 pm
    People here seriously have to learn about Economics. I really don`t know where to begin. We always hear about how bad it is when people who aren`t climate scientists talk about the climate - well take your own advice about economics, because I`m hearing some really dumb things on here.

    The problem lies in efficient allocation of capital. Most welfare programs lead to highly inefficient allocations of capital that cause massive distortions in markets. Hello, Education!

    So I heard someone say earlier that, "you think the money just disappears if you give it to poor people!"

    In the case of education, it definitely does. We spend more on education than any other country, with the worst results. It`s because our particular education welfare system has created massive distortions. Student loans is the worst of all. And in reference to a sentiment brought up earlier - even critics HAVE to participate. That`s how bad the system is, you can`t avoid it.
  23. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 3:48 pm
    Also, American healthcare is another black hole. We spend WAY more on healthcare than any other country. At least twice as much as the Netherlands. In fact, a single payer system would be cheaper than our current system. This is why people are idiots when they say the government isn`t involved in our healthcare system already. They are, just stupidly.

    Make no mistake, our healthcare dollars are being very inefficiently allocated by these market distortions.

    The least distortion inducing welfare plan is Friedrich Hayek`s. This is basically a negative income tax. People can risk their own capital how they want, without the inefficient bureaucracy and massive market distortions.
  24. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 3:56 pm
    God, Ilikelogic, your name IS satirical if you actually believe in the Basic Guaranteed Income. Not only would this cause massive inflation, but there is literally no money to pay for that all. Also, who the F would work if you get paid for being alive?

    The price of paying 315 million 40k a year.

    12,500,000,000,000 Yes, 12.5 trillion. This would involve increasing the current budget from 4.5 (federal, state, and local) to 12.5 trillion (tripling). And that would mean that 100% of expenditures would be this stupid plan.

    Spending to GDP would be almost 80%! No country can grow at that, there is a proven relationship between increased state spending and less growth.

  25. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 4:34 pm
    Ananya Roy, I think, is qualified to speak on the subject. She has a qualified background and field of study along with a PHD.

    I was trying to start a dialogue.

    Andrew155. I am not an economist nor is that my field of study or expertise. I simply read books. I have a serious problem with how things are currently.

    I want to pick your brain a bit if you don`t mind. My question(s) are; What are you opinions on how the economy has been the last 20 years? Do you believe the amassing most of wealth to 1% of the population is a good thing for our country?

    Also what are your opinions of Corporate "welfare"? Government spending that is out of control? IE Military, etc

    How do you factor in Human greed? Is that an acceptable flaw in any Capitalistic society?
  26. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 4:50 pm
    HumanA: Thank you for explaining more, rare response for me on IAB so far. It`s just hard to get everything right when talking about economics :)

    My was point that it`s not deficit spending, the whole budget has deficit, not individual programs in it. Otherwise, you could say that welfare program owns money to certain legal institution. Then how do you separate what is not deficit and what is not. Are roads build from taxes and welfare from loans? And why would anyone do that?

    Of course, then defense budget is run on deficit, schools, roads.. Everything is deficit spending if budget is in deficit, ergo: everything has negative net.. You see where i`m going with this?

    I feel that it is a trick to think that welfare is bad and some other part of spending is not.

  27. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 5:01 pm
    How do you factor in Human greed? Is that an acceptable flaw in any Capitalistic society? Eh Capitalism is designed on human greed. In it`s perfect form, you pursue what you want without inhibition. Government regulation is to get involved when markets fail, or when their are "higher social priorities".

    The issues with other moralistic economic models is they don`t properly factor in human greed. That`s why welfare gets abused. Go to Cuba you can find brain surgeons as cleaners (friends maid was one) Why? Because when all pay is standardized why do something more stressful, longer hours and hard work when you get paid the same.
  28. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 5:08 pm
    @CreamK

    I feel that it is a trick to think that welfare is bad and some other part of spending is not.
    Well, I certainly think that`s true on both sides of the aisle. I see many people claim that defense spending is somehow good while welfare spending is bad and visa versa.

    Personally, I think all deficit spending is bad. Off the top of my head, the only case I can think of where it would seem acceptable is in the case of imminent attack/invasion by a foreign aggressor.

    I don`t think that`s going to happen any time soon though! XD

    In my opinion, the ideal first step would be to find the total percentage we need to cut the current budget by in order to balance it, and then cut every single program equally by that percentage.
  29. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 5:21 pm
    Andrew: All complaints about muricans not having money is negated by your defense budget.

    I read yesterday an article from ex US general.. He complained that China wont start a war and all the US huge ships haven`t seen action since WWII and more being built.. Yes, he was actually bummed about US not getting to show "shock and awe China", what an ahole..

    You keep making HUGE overblown decisions on defense, like you are scared out of your wits. It`s mind boggling but don`t come complaining that you cant afford it. Cause you easily can, maybe the only nation that could do it tomorrow. Hell, you could pay every Mexican to stay in Mexico too, on top of it.

    It`s priorities: first military industrial complex is kept happy, then what`s left will be given to banks. Then you haven`t got anymore money so have to take it from the poor and middle class and make it their fault that there`s no money.

    ffs, common sense, humility, patience: not part of U
  30. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 5:22 pm
    HumanA: I agree, totally. I just put large wall of text but tl:dr: usa has money and it`s all in the defense budget.
  31. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36654 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 6:55 pm

    @ CreamK - correction.. US used to have money. In case no one has noticed we`re broke. Bankrupt. No way of paying off our enormous debt.
  32. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    February 23, 2014 at 8:56 pm
    @Andrew155:

    "The price of paying 315 million 40k a year."

    That is the most asinine argument I have ever seen. Did you just make that up on the spot?

    Why would we give EVERY person (infants included) $40K a year? Who`s proposing that? There may be around 315 million Americans, but no one ever said we should give each and every one of them $40K a year. There`s only about 110 million taxpayers, and even fewer households. You can`t just use whatever numbers you`d like to show why something won`t work (especially when no one is suggesting such a thing).

    What is this, the 3rd grade? Ridiculous.
  33. Profile photo of Shelworth
    Shelworth Male 50-59
    385 posts
    February 24, 2014 at 5:05 am
    Question: If the USA did not have it`s current military Power how long before the EU would be either Russian or Muslim?
  34. Profile photo of irunfast86
    irunfast86 Male 18-29
    404 posts
    February 24, 2014 at 7:10 am
    what a load of crap. certain people will always be poor because they can`t manage their money. others are just lazy and depend on government handouts. i will not work my life away so others can sit on their butts. the walmart situation is messed up but i make just enough to have a car to get to work, a bed to sleep in and just enough left over for a couple luxuries. i`m the last person you should talk to about welfare.
  35. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3877 posts
    February 24, 2014 at 8:11 am
    @irun

    I think we have this misconception or maybe ignorant point of view of "poor" people and/or "lazy people". I know plenty of my "wealthier" friends and colleagues that mismanage their money. People that make 6 figures but buy outside their means. Every "class" of person does it. We are all human we want stuff. I`m not saying the people you reference do not exist, I only question how many of those types of people actually exist
  36. Profile photo of Phosphoreign
    Phosphoreign Male 30-39
    308 posts
    February 24, 2014 at 1:58 pm
    I think this was very one sided and ignores a lot of the other issues involved... raise the minimum wage? according to the bureau of labor statistics, about 6% of all hourly workers in America make at or less than minimum wage? Gonna help? Doubt it... furthermore, I just watched a 60 Minutes report on minimum wage / living wage / poverty... the example mother of 3 they interviewed worked for McDonald`s for 10 years, but still can`t make enough to make ends meet... ok, you`re 24, unmarried, and have 3 kids... and therefore, I should pay more for a hamburger to cover that set of life choices? I can`t tell you all the kind of sacrifices my family and I had to make for me to go to college, and get a job that wasn`t hourly... furthermore, when asked, she explained that she was offered promotions 3 times, but it would have meant, due to lower seniority, more nights & weekends... which she refused so she could spend time with her kids... I`m sorry, this isn`t so one sided as "ever
  37. Profile photo of Phosphoreign
    Phosphoreign Male 30-39
    308 posts
    February 24, 2014 at 1:58 pm
    "everyone who has means needs to pay for everyone who doesn`t"

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