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Category: Science
Date: 02/05/14 07:18 AM

44 Responses to Creation Evolution

  1. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 7:18 am
    Link: Creation Evolution - Long but worth the watch...
  2. Profile photo of nettech98
    nettech98 Male 50-59
    1043 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 8:19 am
    I watched it live. The format is 10 minute opening statements, 30 minute presentations, 5 minute rebuttals, 5 minute counter-rebuttals alternating for each debater.

    I personally think Bill Nye `won`, but then I am biased toward real science.
  3. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 8:23 am
    I feel like reddit was absolutely giddy last night from this.
  4. Profile photo of badfish951
    badfish951 Male 70 & Over
    113 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 8:37 am
    I think they both did a great job of remaining respectful. Ham talked way too fast, and did nothing but play sound bites from people who agree with him. "Hey, I`m a smart science person, and I believe in intelligent design." Nye just kept saying and "We don`t know, but it`s fun trying to figure it out".
  5. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 8:46 am
    Found out about this on MSNBC and watched the whole debate on Youtuube. Ham`s basic argument was that creation was true because God said so and you can`t believe evolution because we weren`t there to actually see it happening. It was funny that Ham had no trouble using evolution-type principles to account for the fact that there are too many species to fit on an ark if they were all created by God at the time. Then Nye said based on the age Ham says the world is, there would have to be about 30 new species being created every day. Also enjoyed Ham`s excuses for why he takes some parts of the Bible literally and some not (what marriage is, what you can eat etc.). Nye wandered around a little bit but he had a lot of information to present in a simple way and he hit the points he needed to. It`s hard to debate with someone who just says "The Bible says so".
  6. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 9:56 am
    Why would I want to waste 2:44 watching an @$$hole argue with an idiot?
  7. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7064 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:01 am
    `Christian Today` ran a poll which gave Nye 92%.

    I watched it, Nye was good but he let Ham use so many of his standard ploys when he should have been ready for them.

    When Ham said that there was nothing that would make him change his mind it was clear that this was not a debate to him but a chance to appear next to a real scientist as though he had a valid point to make.

    Apart from being right and using evidence Nye`s big advantage was his attitude of `We don`t know everything, but it`s fun finding out.` Contrast that with Ham`s `I know everything because I have a book.`
  8. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:21 am
    I mean, Christian literalists think it`s based on a book, which is self-refuting, and evangelical atheists don`t ever really address the answer of why the universe actually exists and why consciousness is a thing, why the 1st person point of view exists. So they tell me the Big Bang happened, big deal.

    So really, nothing happened here that would actually make one think about why existence exists.
  9. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:38 am
    I`ve seen a few articles out there saying this debate was a bad idea.

    By debating with creationists on a public forum, means that you give some validity to their argument. An argument scientists have proven time and time again, an argument they`ve won time and time again. Dawkins has a similar perspective.
  10. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:40 am
    Oh, and Kentucky...
  11. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:45 am
    "evangelical atheists don`t ever really address the answer of why the universe actually exists"

    How could anyone possibly know "why" everything exists? It just is. You would have to be outside our universe to be able to observe that, like those marble-playing aliens in MIB. As far as consciousness goes, Nye covered that as well as current science can so far. The best thing about science vs creationists is that science doesn`t claim to know everything and is always open to new evidence. Doesn`t mean you don`t act on compelling evidence NOW to solve problems, though.
  12. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:47 am

    Creationist seems stuck on "we weren`t there to observe it so we don`t know for sure". With that viewpoint I wasn`t there to see WWII so how do I know it happened? Because there is reliable documented evidence it happened. With fossil layer there is reliable documented evidence {fossil rocks} that it happen a specific way...evolutionary.

    He gave a lot of opinions but just opinion. Not one fact. Not one fossil proving his viewpoint. Just showing other smart blokes who believe the same thing. Again, no actual evidence.



  13. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7607 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 10:49 am
    I can`t bear to watch- the very idea it should happen is a bloody joke. I have looney evangelicals all over friggin Facebook talking poo. There is no way you can be a creationist unless you are so indoctrinated into the literal truth of a book which ANY scholar will tell you cannot be literally true ( unless they are said nutters) - and can perform mental gymnastics. We should all ignore them- except laugh and point... take the piss out of them, they will soon bugger off.
  14. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 11:08 am
    I wasn`t there to observe this "debate" so I`m wondering if it really happened...
  15. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 11:15 am
    Exactly, the whole "why" question can`t really be answered. I like the concept of "I don`t know, but let`s find out the answers", that`s a stance with which you cannot lose the argument about something as nebulous as existence.

    The contemporary explanations of consciousness don`t really satisfy, they are just logical guesses to something they really can`t prove at all.

    Cogito ergo sum, because I can think about my own existence, the first person point of view exist - at least for me. The reason why is a mystery. It could very well have been that all organisms, even intelligent, exist in the third person, everything on autopilot.

    This is obviously straddling the line between Science and Philosophy at this point, though.
  16. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 11:18 am
    @whodat

    Oh but it did happen, it was held at and streamed from the creationist museum owned by the creationist believing debater.

    The whole thing is an ad for his whack-a-doodle museum, mind control ad for the believing flock. Nye is a schill, untrustworthy imo.
  17. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 12:00 pm
    It doesn`t matter what they believe and why. They have every right to believe how they wish to and not be bullied for it. Its one thing to want to share your wisdom and opinions with others, but its another to try and shame and belittle and bully (which is what Nye is doing more and more) just because they dont agree. (and dont throw the cultists in there like Westboro, everyone knows they`re the worse kind of bullies and oppressors) You know...that whole "religious freedom" thing? If I want to believe that Dr Who is real and telling us the secrets of the universe are found in mushrooms, then who are you to ridicule me for it? :D
  18. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7607 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 12:18 pm
    Melcervini- to a point, but these clowns DO affect policy in quite a few places in the USA. Womens health, education- two areas which are of a third world standard in parts of the US- because people like that have influence..
  19. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 12:18 pm
    @MelCervini- doesn`t seem like you watched the debate. Nye was always very polite to Ham. The point wasn`t to belittle people`s beliefs. It was to prevent biblical beliefs to be taught to children in science class as if they have the same scientific validity. The debate was whether Ham`s view of creation was "viable" and clearly only is if you believe in a magical god making everything happen. Doesn`t exactly set us up for advancing science.
  20. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 12:30 pm

    I went to the local Creation Museum with Markust {whatever happen to him?}. Really nice model / miniature work.

    But the "Science" was a hoot. Their display on neanderthals explains that in cold climate people such as eskimos are naturally stocky. And their larger bones/joins is because as we get older our joints do get larger - here`s the fun part - In bible days people lived 300 years or more so neanderthals are just really, really old eskimos.

    I`m not kidding, that`s what the placard says next to the mannequin of a neanderthal.
  21. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 12:32 pm

    @ MelCervini - you`re right, they do have every right to believe what they wish. But these nutters are forcing their fake science in schools. In Texas evolution has been removed from all textbooks and replaced with "Intelligent Design".

    Forcing ignorance on other people`s children is not acceptable. But the church board and the school board are the same people in Texas.
  22. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 1:04 pm
    madduck - They really don`t affect the policy, you`ve just been told so many times that they do. "Women`s health" is not at a third world standard. Abortion laws in America are "looser" than they are in most European countries. There are European countries that actually make you go through many hoops like counseling and a long waiting time. Belgium makes you wait 6 days, Holland 5! And most of the countries have a time limit at 90 days! That would never happen in a million years here. Stop making stuff up.

    Education - we have 50 different states and they all run their own education systems. I never once was taught creationism in school and I went to over 6 public schools. It can happen because it`s so localized, but you act like you know what it`s like because you read an article on some progressive blog one time.
  23. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7607 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 1:16 pm
    Okay Andrew155 - I stand corrected about Womens health- but I think you are wrong about education. I know quite a few people who have a terrible science education- and are quite lacking in literature as well. Varying ages-- but all from either the South or in the middle bit- and they have no clue at all about really quite basic stuff and some really weird ideas. When questioned they ALL say `well, i`ve always been taught so`. Which is all very well, but, REALLY?
  24. Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 1:28 pm
    Sigh. I watched that live last night, and I needed a drink after.
    The best moment of the debate was the question, "What would be the one thing that would change your mind?"
    Ken Ham said he wouldn`t change his mind.
    Whereas Bill said all he would need is scientific data and would love to have his mind changed.

    ^That is why debating young earth creationists is futile. Ken Ham goes around looking for evidence to support his beliefs. It`s incredibly exhausting to listen to his circular reasoning.
  25. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 1:48 pm
    Gerry... I can`t argue that either. Its a public, state/government-run school, so teaching religion as a science is unacceptable (perhaps a religious differences class to cover the main ones perhaps?) Teach the accepted scientific ways and if you want your child to learn another view, put them in private/religious-based schools, home-school, or keep those teachings to Sunday school. BUT... dont ban someone`s voice or faith when it comes to religious ideals. Its freedom OF religion.. not freedom FROM religion, so if little billy wants to pray before he has lunch or sing a Christmas carol, don`t scream that your kid needs crisis counselling now because she`s so scarred and oppressed.
  26. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 1:52 pm

    madduck, don`t believe him- religious nutters DO affect policy. Evoltion is out of schools. As for abortion, in some southern states it`s damn near outlawed. They can`t ban abortion, but they can deny abortion clinics permits to operate.

    I`m against abortion, but I don`t like back-door policies that go around laws they don`t like.
  27. Profile photo of OverTime
    OverTime Male 40-49
    97 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:00 pm
    "Why would I want to waste 2:44 watching an @$$hole argue with an idiot?"

    ...when you can come here and be the idiot arguing with lots of @$$holes.
  28. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:03 pm
    "if little billy wants to pray before he has lunch or sing a Christmas carol"

    like this actually happens. whenever there`s an issue, it`s the public school forcing EVERYONE to do something religious. It`s not one little kid saying grace in front of his lunchbox.

    The constitution gives us BOTH freedom of and freedom from religion. Remember "there shall be no religious test" of anyone wanting to participate in government? That means you are not required to be religious to be involved in making gov policies.
  29. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:29 pm
    LMFAO wow on here too? I feel special and all stalkie! lol Since I can`t C&P a link for you for examples, go google Jersey school bans christmas carols or NY schools excluding Christian references from Christian songs during Christian holidays and tell me that its the Religious forcing themselves on schools when the war on religion is alive and well and has been since its inception 50 years ago. (Unless you`re a religion other than Christianity that is, then you`re embraced and revered)
  30. Profile photo of broizfam
    broizfam Male 60-69
    4891 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:35 pm
    If little Billy wants to pray before he eats lunch he is perfectly welcome to do so. The problem is (or, at least, was at one time - I don`t know if the issue has come back up recently) that Billy`s parents want the school to have prayer breaks for those kids who want to pray. That means my kid has to stop and wait for the educational part of school to resume because their precious Billy simply cannot just pray quietly at his own convenience. The problem is not Theism or Atheism. The problem is people trying to push their belief, or lack thereof (atheists are guilty, too!) onto others. I`m an atheist but I`ve never mocked anyone for their beliefs or tried to convince them that they`re wrong. I respect your right to believe as you will as long as you respect my right not to. More people need to learn this.
  31. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:49 pm
    MelCervini, I was extremely careful to point out that Billy is not being persecuted on an individual basis. He can sing "oh Holy Night" walking down the hall all he wants. I knew all the examples you could produce are of schools being prohibited from forcing OTHER people`s kids to sing O Holy Night. If you can`t tell the difference between these events there`s no use discussing it further.
  32. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:51 pm
    Broiz... exactly! That is just as wrong, and makes the non-nutty religious folks look as "inquisition" as they are by trying to bully their way into getting their way. I wouldn`t want the state or govt to promote ANY religion because you KNOW the`d get it so wrong it would start more wars than we already have.
  33. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 2:55 pm
    And full circle, Loo! that`s what my comments on this post were about... people who believe in God and creationism and their being ridiculed and persecuted for just speaking it! So if our little billy prays, someone else has the right to bitch because THEY say its offensive and HE has to stop... and that is NOT right.
  34. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 3:01 pm
    i actually watched this live. I thought they both had some good points, and i learned from both of them. Sadly, there`s a lot of biased folks from both camps saying their `side` won. But in all honesty it was a draw, and it couldn`t be anything but. Its like 2 people on either side of a 10 foot thick marble wall, each pushing with all their might. Before, during, and after the 10 foot thick marble wall is in the same position.

    If anyone won, the real winner was God.
  35. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 3:09 pm
    MelCervini: I agree with your comment. I was a little dismayed when Bill Nye`s presentation used "Ken Ham`s Theory". I thought that was a little childish for a grown man..
  36. Profile photo of PARSBAYLUK
    PARSBAYLUK Male 18-29
    102 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 3:40 pm
    If you don`t think that this debate actually influences anything, you`re wrong. I went to school very close to the Dover Area School District; the one that garnered national attention when they decided to switch out their textbooks for Of Pandas and People (if you`re not familiar, it`s a textbook that gives credit to intelligent design). You can`t let people get away with trying to teach nonscience as science. Luckily, after the whole situation, that district`s entire school-board was fired. So there was a happy ending after all.
  37. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2245 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 3:43 pm
    While I can appreciate the enthusiasm in any debate... some things are just too polar to argue in this kind of setting. you will never change either`s mind so what is the point other than to stir up dissent?
  38. Profile photo of Simbosan
    Simbosan Male 40-49
    159 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 4:08 pm
    "If anyone won, the real winner was God. "

    Arff! Funny guy
  39. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 4:30 pm
    Gerry - No, Evolution is not out of schools. Some local jurisdictions have gone or tried to go rogue. This is only temporary and no reason to have a hernia. Like I said, I never was taught anything other than Evolution at any of my six public schools in six different states, North, South, and Midwest. Besides, they should teach Religious concepts, but in a Religion class.

    Abortion is nowhere near being illegal in the South. I know North Carolina easily has looser laws than Europe. Make no mistake, if you want an abortion, nobody is taking it away from you. People are mad because they`re not offered it on golden platters. So what if you have to drive an hour for an abortion if you live in a rural area. That`s life. I`ve had to do that for lots of necessary things, everyone does.

    It`s like saying South Dakota has almost made abortion illegal because of a 3 day waiting period (the longest). That`s half of Belgium`s required 6.
  40. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 5:09 pm

    Andrew, correct I`m not up to date. I see the those damn radical liberals have fought back. A quick Texas School Evolution google search brings up recent news articles on the fight.

    But isn`t it ridiculous that those religious nutters have enough clout to even have a serious battle over this? They almost got evolution removed, only in the 11th hour is there a fight to stop it.
  41. Profile photo of TrustyMadman
    TrustyMadman Male 18-29
    144 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 9:11 pm
    Laugh my ass off if Hamm claimed on his deathbed "Hah... I trolled everyone"
  42. Profile photo of Tupinambis
    Tupinambis Male 18-29
    568 posts
    February 5, 2014 at 11:31 pm
    You have all the freedom to express your views, you don`t have to whimper for it. We can`t guarantee we`ll agree or respect your views. Presenting us with profiles of various researchers who have contributed yet believe in biblical creationism only shows us that one can be brilliant and yet hold other false beliefs.
  43. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4080 posts
    February 6, 2014 at 5:46 am
    The issue is the Ken ham theory is inherently circular logic. Because no one was around to "observe" anything we can`t therefor prove or disprove the Bible`s accuracy on the matter. If a book written by man deciphered and translated and re-translated multiple times over thousands of years is enough for you to come to a conclusion on that set of data I`d argue you aren`t a reasonable person.
  44. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4080 posts
    February 6, 2014 at 5:52 am
    The part i liked and agree with is we can never truly "know" if there is an intelligent design. Because in order to test that we`d have to be OUTSIDE our universe. Which as far as we know is impossible. so the question is pointless at this time. We are better off trying to figure out the Universe than wondering if something intelligent designed it and cares enough about me to not want me to masturbate. I don`t know if there is a God or isn`t a God but in order to believe the Bible is a truly accurate accounting of historical events I`d have to complete disagree based on how Humans act. Every time a story is told and retold something minor changes and what you eventually get when it comes full circle is a completely different story. I don`t see how the Bible didn`t have this happen to it.

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