The best in arts & entertainment, news, pop culture, and your mom since 2002.

[Total: 26    Average: 4/5]
151 Comments - View/Add
Hits: 6485
Rating: 4
Category:
Date: 01/25/14 09:16 AM

151 Responses to COCAINE AND UNICORNS [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of SweepOfDeath
    SweepOfDeath Male 18-29
    938 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:08 am
    Link: COCAINE AND UNICORNS - How do we solve this?
  2. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:32 am
    Next: IAB resident right wingers come and post graphs about how it hurts the economy. Screw the economy! Help humanbeings, your own species. Reason to do nothing cause "economy hurts" is totally backwards. And even that "fact" is debatable, no one is 100% what minimum wage actually does to the economy. The right wing is happy to argue about this forever: as long as there`s an argument going on, nothing gets done.

    Economy is here to help us, not the other way around.

    Let the idiots start their babbles. ↓↓
  3. Profile photo of RubinRybnik
    RubinRybnik Male 18-29
    12 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:39 am
    The "trickle down" economy isn`t working and hasn`t worked for decades. Maybe it`s time to give a "trickle up" economy a shot.
  4. Profile photo of jbwhite
    jbwhite Male 18-29
    1292 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:55 am
    ehh, ribbits in thirty odd, no mur blue collars, new def of economy, errone wealthy, brain cells with candy coated membranes
  5. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2197 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:57 am
    To the majority that are bitching: How about not having 236232 kids if you`re working at McD`s? How about putting off getting your hair and nails did and add another lb of gold bling to wear before whining that you`re flipping burgers for 8 bucks an hour. Go dig a ditch! Haul trash to the dump! Go do some manual labor that DOES pay more or are you just looking for another handout?
  6. Profile photo of Umbobo
    Umbobo Male 40-49
    64 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:58 am
    I tend to lean on the conservative side of many issues, but ya know, I`m a single guy with no kids and thus no child support. Other than my house my debt is minimal. No car payment at the momen. I make a bit over $15 an hour and live in a pretty rural area with a fairly low cost of living. While I don`t struggle, neither do I live with anything but moderate comfort. Money is still a concern at times, especially since I need a new roof on my house, as well as a few other costly things done. My point... anyone who says that someone making minimum wage--almost half of what I make--is earning anything close to a livable wage--is an arrogant ass. People working at Walmarts and fast food joints are the ones who put up with all the arrogant asses, and I guarantee work at least as hard. They deserve better. And in most areas, there are not enough college students/"entry-level" employees to fill all the positions at these places.
  7. Profile photo of FinePoint
    FinePoint Male 18-29
    161 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:04 am
    i would love to get paid in cocaine and unicorns.
  8. Profile photo of Umbobo
    Umbobo Male 40-49
    64 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:05 am
    There is no job that the employee only deserves to earn minimum wage. Don`t know what MG is everywhere, but even $8 an hour... what can a person really get with $8? In this world, there are not enough of the "Hauling Trash" as MelCervini stated for everyone. There are not enough jobs that pay a livable wage, and for those who do get them, someone else ends up working for poo. Not everyone who works for minimum wage wastes their money on getting their hair and nails done or jewelry or has kids. Stop grouping everyone together. They are not all looking for handouts, they`re just trying to make it in a world full of greedy non-nice individuals who want a certain segment of the population kept in poverty so that they can gain more. drat you greedy non-nice individuals who see the world as a mountain for you to get to the top of, no matter who you step on along the way. There are a lot of lazy people in the world, but most people are good at heart and just want to make it.
  9. Profile photo of Kegomatix
    Kegomatix Male 18-29
    1341 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:20 am
    Sure, raise minimum wage for everyone! That way there will be no incentive to go to college, or attain any type of skills. Hmm... Make $15 an working at McDonalds? Or, make $15 an hour working a job that requires much more skill and experience, and is considerably more difficult?
  10. Profile photo of Kegomatix
    Kegomatix Male 18-29
    1341 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:22 am
    Minimum wage is for entry level positions. I haven`t made even CLOSE to minimum wage since high school.
  11. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:25 am
    Even if it is hyperbolic, it is still actually a good question. For a moment, disregard emotion and your own subjective notions of "fair" or "right" and use logic.

    If raising the minimum wage to $15/hr. helps people who make less than $15/hr. more than it hurts people who make more than $15/hr., then that should be true for any number.

    The point of being hyperbolic here isn`t to present some notion that we`ll end up in a slippery slope, but more so to demonstrate that the initial premise is logically flawed.

    Were it not logically flawed, then raising the minimum wage to any number - even ridiculous ones - would result in a net gain, which we know to be untrue. Therefore, we can conclude that the initial premise is untrue.

    Of course, unless there`s a magical reason why $15/hr. is good, and every number above it suddenly becomes bad.
  12. Profile photo of YANKmyDOODLE
    YANKmyDOODLE Male 30-39
    771 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:39 am
    i want more money
  13. Profile photo of Tiredofnicks
    Tiredofnicks Male 30-39
    5097 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 11:12 am
    Again, when it comes to stuff like this I have one, smug thing to say:

    Greetings from Scandinavia.
  14. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 11:55 am
    Ok, HumanAction, by that logic why do CEOs get huge wage increases every year for doing the same work they have done every other year, especially when that extra money isn`t needed to meet their basic needs to live and probably won`t be put immediately back into the economy to benefit us all like a minimum wage increase would?

    $15/hr is a good number because it`s about the number the minimum wage should be to have kept up with inflation. Actually, minimum wage from 1968 adjusted for today`s inflation would be $10.56, which is close to what President Obama wants it raised to and then adjusted on a yearly basis for inflation like it should be.

    I love how people keep saying these are entry level jobs people should grow out of but you don`t want to enable any programs that make it possible for people to do the things they need to to actually do that.
  15. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:10 pm
    by that logic why do CEOs get huge wage increases every year for doing the same work they have done every other year, especially when that extra money isn`t needed to meet their basic needs to live and probably won`t be put immediately back into the economy to benefit us all like a minimum wage increase would?
    This has nothing to do with my point nor is it at all related to the logic I`ve provided.

    $15/hr is a good number because it`s about the number the minimum wage should be to have kept up with inflation
    This isn`t consistent with the logic below. In fact, it completely ignores the point I`ve made.

    love how people keep saying these are entry level jobs people should grow out of but you don`t want to enable any programs that make it possible for people to do the things they need to to actually do that.
    I didn`t say that.

  16. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7564 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:19 pm
    God I wish I was in scandinavia.. still. Ignore everything else- If minimum wage does not pay enough to live on (it doesn`t- no arguments about that) but plenty of people are managing on it- HOW are they managing- either by having so many jobs they don`t get enough sleep- OR by getting some form of state assistance. Which means that the state is subsidising employers by the back door.
  17. Profile photo of Modwain
    Modwain Male 40-49
    336 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:33 pm
    sigh, not worth to way in anymore.. either people are or percieve themselves as have`s, they feel they are not responcible for the have not`s. Or people are have not`s and try to better their standing but fail at this for what ever reason..

    I think the line is united we stand, divided we fall. go ahead and keep pushing for the fall bit, to bad you are dragging the western world with you but hey, thats not the fault of anyone, right?
  18. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7564 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:41 pm
    Humanin action- I am far to stoned to argue- but your logic fails... if I remember I will come back in the morning and explain why...
  19. Profile photo of ultimakewl
    ultimakewl Male 18-29
    833 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:46 pm
    @HumanAction
    $15/hour was chosen because A) its roughly what the employees would need to get paid in order to live of without having to resort to multiple jobs or government programs and B) ITS REALISTIC
    the hyperbolic example of $100,000 is just that: hyperbolic
    its grossly exaggerated for no other reason than to try to make the other side look stupid, but in this case, like every other, has the exact opposite affect

    its a minimum wage job, no one is expecting to be able to afford lambos
    but they are expecting to be able to afford food

    thats the great thing about $15/hour
    its large enough to live off of and its small enough that those big greedy companies that employ the vast majority of the minimum wage workers can pay their employees that without drastically slashing their profits
  20. Profile photo of CaptKangaroo
    CaptKangaroo Male 50-59
    2343 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:46 pm
    When you work a minimum pay job, keep that in mind: It`s minimum wage. Don`t have kids if you can`t afford them- or pets. Or a house, cars, tv, stereos-and, now that I think about it- most Americans are kinda fat, so... Three meals a day is really kinda extravagant- don`t ya think?
    In other words- NO LIFE FOR YOU!!
    Oh, and let`s bring back debtors prisons- I`m sure that could be another thing the government could contract out and privatize, huh?
  21. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:47 pm
    MelCervvini

    "To the majority that are bitching: How about not having 236232 kids if you`re working at McD`s? How about putting off getting your hair and nails did and add another lb of gold bling to wear...or are you just looking for another handout?"

    You strike me as a racist, despicable, c*nt of a human being.

    Possibly the most horrific, morally bankrupt person on this site, which is saying a lot because some people are actively TRYING to be and it just seems natural to you.

    If you can possibly feel that that is an appropriate, intelligent comment you basically have no soul, decency, or humanity.

    In closing, working for 40 hours as a contributing member of society providing a necessary service and expecting it to pay enough for you to live a basic life on is not a "handout" you grotesque pile of human waste.
  22. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:49 pm
    oh, HumanAction, it`s like trying to argue with Paul Ryan. Absolutely frustrating and pointless. I just hope you never get involved in real public policy while I`m still alive. I don`t want to live in your kind of world.
  23. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:50 pm
    @madduck

    Please do.

    I`ve merely proposed a logical proof. Unlike many people here who are using reason, this is logic.

    Proposition: Raising the minimum wage helps people who make less than minimum wage more than it hurts society.

    Test By Logical Extreme: Raising the minimum wage to $100/hr. helps people making less than $100/hr. more than it hurts society.

    Is this true? Of course not.

    Therefore, the original assumption is disproven. Now, if you want to say that raising it to $15/hr. won`t hurt society whereas raising it to $100/hr. will, then the onus to demonstrate such is on you.

  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:53 pm
    @ultimate

    $15/hour was chosen because A) its roughly what the employees would need to get paid in order to live of without having to resort to multiple jobs or government programs and B) ITS REALISTIC
    This is reasoning, not logic; it also does not demonstrate why $15/hr. is not damaging when $100/hr. is.

    the hyperbolic example of $100,000 is just that: hyperbolic
    It`s a logical extreme and is a valid test to see if the proposition is logically consistent.



  25. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:53 pm
    HA

    "Were it not logically flawed, then raising the minimum wage to any number - even ridiculous ones - would result in a net gain, which we know to be untrue. Therefore, we can conclude that the initial premise is untrue.

    Of course, unless there`s a magical reason why $15/hr. is good, and every number above it suddenly becomes bad."

    Allow me to field that.

    We already agree that the cost of raising minimum wage will most likely be passed on to the consumer.

    We already showed that for mcdonalds, that increase would be around 20 cents.

    If you were to raise it much higher the increase to the consumer eventually gets to a point where it hurts people who make more than minimum wage. THAT is the reason.

  26. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    @lauriloo

    Absolutely frustrating and pointless.
    I`m not sure what you were expecting from me. I presented a logical test of the proposition, and you came in a started attacking me based on things completely unrelated to the test I`ve presented.

    Did you honestly expect me to just go along with that?
  27. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    oh, HumanAction, it`s like trying to argue with Paul Ryan. Absolutely frustrating and pointless. I just hope you never get involved in real public policy while I`m still alive. I don`t want to live in your kind of world.

    I don`t know why a minimum wage full-time job is so low-valued to not deserve a wage that`s enough to meet one`s basic needs. Maybe that`s what some people expect because companyies have been able to get away with it for so long and people have been desperate enough to agree to take. That doesn`t make it right.
  28. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:56 pm
    "I presented a logical test of the proposition, and you came in a started attacking me based on things completely unrelated to the test I`ve presented. "

    How is anything I said attacking you? Not everything in my post was aimed directly at you, although you made it about you. You asked why $15 was a magical number and I told you why.
  29. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:57 pm
    @HG

    We already agree that the cost of raising minimum wage will most likely be passed on to the consumer.
    No we did not. We were discussing what would happen if the total cost were passed onto the consumer. We did not agree that it would be.

    The most likely outcome would be that consumers and employees bear the brunt of the increased costs via a variety of methods.

    If you were to raise it much higher the increase to the consumer eventually gets to a point where it hurts people who make more than minimum wage.
    At what point does this occur? It`s subjective and untestable.

    So let`s raise it to $15/hr. That`s 20 cents right? That`s not bad, right? Well, if we raise minimum wage to $22-23/hr., it`s still only a 40 cent increase. $30/hr, well, that`s only 60 cents.

    KEY QUESTION: Why is 20c not bad for the economy, where 40c or 60c is?
  30. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:58 pm
    HA

    It is a balancing act.

    A business still has to sell a product or service at a price point where the consumer sees more value in the product than in the money it costs.

    Right now a meal at McDs costs $5. People obviously feel the meal is worth more than that.

    Raise minimum wage to $15/hr and a meal at McDs costs $5.20. People will still feel the meal is worth more than that.

    If you raise the cost to hyperbolic levels than a meal at McDonalds will cost way too much and therefore nobody will buy it. Even if I made $500,000 a year I would never buy a $20 meal at McDonalds. I`d go to a better restaurant or make my own food.

  31. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 12:59 pm
    @lauriloo

    Not everything in my post was aimed directly at you, although you made it about you.
    Well excuse me, but you did start your comment with "Ok, HumanAction" so I think it is reasonable to assume you were talking to me.
  32. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:00 pm
    @lauriloo

    You can never seem to stay on the topic.
    I`m the only one staying on topic! Well, HG is too, to a point.
  33. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:03 pm
    "This is reasoning, not logic; it also does not demonstrate why $15/hr. is not damaging when $100/hr. is. "

    Sigh. Once again you are arguing semantics instead of dealing with the subject at hand. You can never seem to stay on the topic. All of your arguments are in the abstract realm and do nothing to advance thought in the actionable reality.

    Maybe they are lobbying for $15 but expecting the inflation-driven $11 as an inevitable compromise. Ever think of that??
  34. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:04 pm
    @HG

    It is a balancing act.
    That`s not testable though. Who gets to decide the point at which it goes from being good to being bad? There is no person on Earth who can determine that; we`re just not that clever.

    A business still has to sell a product or service at a price point where the consumer sees more value in the product than in the money it costs.
    Absolutely, but, a business must also be able to outcompete it`s competitors in order to remain valid.

    Raise minimum wage to $15/hr and a meal at McDs costs $5.20. People will still feel the meal is worth more than that.
    Raise it to $60/hr and it costs $6.40; people will still buy it at that price.
    What I`m doing here is showing that this isn`t a valid defense, because it holds true for the hyperbolic wages as well.
  35. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:05 pm
    "I`m the only one staying on topic!"

    Using your own special logic. I have said nothing off topic. Everything I said was on topic. Your logic moves all over the place so it`s hard to follow where you are going.
  36. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:08 pm
    @HumanAction- Are you arguing the minimum wage should never increase ever, that there shouldn`t be a minimum (so desperate people can get slave wages basically) or what? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
  37. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:09 pm
    HA

    "No we did not."

    OK. I thought we had. I do.

    "At what point does this occur? It`s subjective and untestable."

    No. No it isn`t. It is completely testable. AT what point does mcdonald`s business start dropping off due to increase in cost.

    Don`t you own a business? Supply and demand is constantly tested.

    I raise and lower my rates accordingly to get a balance of the right amount of work at the highest rate. It is how I determine what my services are worth.
  38. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:10 pm
    @lauriloo

    Using your own special logic.
    There`s only one logic. Propositions are either logical or illogical, which is why it is superior to reason, which is subjective.

    I have said nothing off topic
    I presented a logical examination of minimum wage and the economy. You started going off about CEO`s.

    Your logic moves all over the place so it`s hard to follow where you are going.
    I`m not moving around at all. Reread my comments and you will find that I`ve consistently been challenging people to explain why they think raising the minimum wage to some value is going to be beneficial to society whereas raising it to another value won`t.
  39. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:10 pm
    @lauriloo

    I have no idea what you are trying to say.
    FFS, I`m not arguing any of those things right now.

    I am challenging someone to disprove the proof I`ve presented.
  40. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:12 pm
    lauriloo

    "Are you arguing the minimum wage should never increase ever, that there shouldn`t be a minimum"

    I believe that is his stance. He thinks there should be NO minimum whatsoever. He believes there should be no regulation whatsoever on business.

    The fact that that would lead to the same working conditions in china where people work 20 hour days and live in the factory and make no money and kill themselves seems to not bother him.

    Walmart would have 8 year olds working as cashiers for 50 cents an hour if they could. We NEED government regulation.
  41. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:14 pm
    So what do you propose people ask for, since according to you the sky`s the limit? Or don`t you understand the absurdity of someone asking for a modest increase and the response is someone suggesting a ridiculous increase? The commenter didn`t say "why not $20/hr," they said $100k/hr with is OBVIOUSLY ridiculous to mock the subject.
  42. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:15 pm
    @HG

    AT what point does mcdonald`s business start dropping off due to increase in cost.
    Well that`s an easy answer; at the point you force them to raise their prices. It isn`t some magical value where all of a sudden people start choosing competitors; it`s gradual. If they raise their prices even a little while higher-quality competitors are able to keep their prices steady, then a small section of the market will stop going to McDonalds and will start going to the competitor.

    That`s just basic economics; it`s essentially just opportunity cost.

  43. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:16 pm
    @HG and lauriloo

    The fact that that would lead to the same working conditions in china where people work 20 hour days and live in the factory and make no money and kill themselves seems to not bother him.
    FFS, you both know damn well what my stance is. The thing is, that`s not the argument here. Let`s stay on topic.

    The argument is about why raising minimum wage to some value is beneficial to the economy whereas raising it to some higher value isn`t. I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid reason.
  44. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:17 pm
    "I am challenging someone to disprove the proof I`ve presented."

    Exactly my point. Your posts are always mental masturbation, not useful commentary. I am a concrete thinker, not a fantasy navel gazer.
  45. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:17 pm
    @lauriloo

    Exactly my point. Your posts are always mental masturbation, not useful commentary.
    Yes, because your comments - such as this one - are clearly useful.
  46. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:19 pm
    "I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid reason."

    because there`s a real point at which the market won`t bear it because there`s not an infinite amount of money. And that point is way above a $15/hr minimum wage. How about that?
  47. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:20 pm
    So that future portrayed in Star Trek, where earth had no poverty. The question is how did they get from here, to there? CAN ANY EDUCATED TREKKIE’S PLEASE CHIME IN?
  48. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:20 pm
    @HG

    The fact that that would lead to the same working conditions in china where people work 20 hour days and live in the factory and make no money and kill themselves seems to not bother him.
    Side note to our arguments (since this isn`t related to our argument), this is a bullpoo "fact."

    China has one of the most heavily-regulated economies in the world. They are always low on the Economic Freedom scale.

    If you want to actually use facts, here are the top 5 freest economies:

    1. Hong Kong
    2. Singapore
    3. Australia
    4. Switzerland
    5. New Zealand.

    Oh f*ck me, how terrifying. Clearly economic freedom is a terrible thing.
  49. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:21 pm
    "Yes, because your comments - such as this one - are clearly useful."

    They`re useful if it makes you stop. Maybe then we could have a real discussion about the minimum wage.
  50. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:22 pm
    @lauriloo

    And that point is way above a $15/hr minimum wage. How about that?
    Ah, and finally we get to it. Now the onus is on you to demonstrate the point at which it occurs, and provide an explanation as to why it suddenly becomes damaging.
  51. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:22 pm
    Why do you suppose the minimum wage was first enacted, then?
  52. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:23 pm
    "Now the onus is on you to demonstrate the point at which it occurs, and provide an explanation as to why it suddenly becomes damaging."

    Wait while I gather all the data. Please, hold your breath while I do that.
  53. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:24 pm
    @HG

    For further reference, China is ranked #137 on the economic freedom index. They are below Egypt, Mali, Serbia, and Rwanda.

    So, China could be used to demonstrate the possible consequences of economic regulation, which is the opposite outcome of your intention.
  54. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:26 pm
    @lauriloo

    Wait while I gather all the data.
    Exactly what I`ve been getting at. You don`t know the point. You don`t even know if $15 is too much. You`re just guessing and hoping that the 20c increase won`t hurt the economy or our society. In reality though, you don`t know that.
  55. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:27 pm
    Australia`s minimum wage is $16.88

    still gather data, hold on
  56. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36689 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    This is me not getting involved in this discussion.

  57. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:28 pm

  58. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:30 pm
    @lauriloo

    Australia`s minimum wage is $16.88
    OK... that still doesn`t answer whether or not that wage is helping or hurting their economy... Are you just getting a bunch of minimum wages together? That`s not going to show anything.

    Here, I`ll tell you what you need to demonstrate.

    First, you need to decide on a wage.
    Second, you need to demonstrate why that wage will not hurt the economy.
    Third, you need to demonstrate why a higher wage will hurt the economy.
  59. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:31 pm
    HA

    "Oh f*ck me, how terrifying. Clearly economic freedom is a terrible thing."

    YES. YES IT IS SOMETIMES.

    How are you judging that Hong Kong is great? All the wealth and progress? SURE. Built on the back of exploiting the working poor.

    Read this:

    http://tinyurl.com/kh3h9rf

    Hong Kong has a minimum wage of $3.60 an hour.

    That is $600 a month.

    Meanwhile people are living in 16sq ft cages for $167/month. YES YOU INSENSITIVE F.UCK, THAT IS A "TERRIBLE THING".



  60. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:31 pm
    @lauriloo

    Congratulations on your chart. You`ve now proven that Australia has a higher minimum wage than the US.

    Now, can we please get back on subject?
  61. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:32 pm
    HA

    "that still doesn`t answer whether or not that wage is helping or hurting their economy"

    JESUS F.UCKING CHRIST.

    People, PEOPLE. People are more important than the economy. The economy is a measure of how rich people are doing. Do you give a s.hit about how the PEOPLE are doing?
  62. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:33 pm
    Top 10 countries with the highest minimum wage
  63. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm
    @HG

    YES. YES IT IS SOMETIMES.
    OK. Do this for me. Take a look at the top ten countries on the economic freedom index. Now, take a look at the bottom ten. Which group would you prefer to live in?

    So, what we can take away from that is that we should move towards economic freedom as opposed to away from it.

    YES YOU INSENSITIVE F.UCK, THAT IS A "TERRIBLE THING".
    Sigh. Oh, here we go again.
  64. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm
    "If you want to actually use facts, here are the top 5 freest economies:

    1. Hong Kong
    2. Singapore
    3. Australia
    4. Switzerland
    5. New Zealand.

    Oh f*ck me, how terrifying. Clearly economic freedom is a terrible thing."

    YOUR topic
  65. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:34 pm
    @lauriloo

    Top 10 countries with the highest minimum wage
    You`re still just collecting minimum wages. Let me ask you this, what do YOU think you are proving right now?
  66. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:35 pm
    HA

    I think her point was that austrailia and new zealand, two countries on your top 5, manage to be that economically free while paying a much higher minimum wage. So.....

    Doesn`t that kind of stop your higher minimum wage makes economy less free argument yes?
  67. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:36 pm
    "Here, I`ll tell you what you need to demonstrate."

    I don`t need to do ANYTHING you tell me to do. See how free I am?
  68. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:37 pm
    @HG

    People are more important than the economy.
    People ARE the economy you f*cking idiot! You have some bullpoo idea that there`s a magical economy out there; it`s just people!

    A good economy is good FOR PEOPLE.

    Do you give a s.hit about how the PEOPLE are doing?
    Clearly I do more than you!
  69. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:37 pm
    @HG *high five*
  70. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:38 pm
    @HG

    Doesn`t that kind of stop your higher minimum wage makes economy less free argument yes?
    I haven`t made that argument, but even if I did, that`s not what`s shown here.

    The problem is that showing a bunch of minimum wages doesn`t show whether or not they hurt or help the economies; it just shows that they have a high minimum wage.
  71. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:38 pm
    Oh, my, who`s attacking now??
  72. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:40 pm
    HA

    "OK. Do this for me. Take a look at the top ten countries on the economic freedom index. Now, take a look at the bottom ten. Which group would you prefer to live in? "

    Am I making minimum wage?

    Then I`d rather live in Venezuela than Hong Kong.

    I`d much rather have a living wage, access to education and healthcare, and food allotment then live in a cage.
  73. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm
    HA

    "People ARE the economy you f*cking idiot! You have some bullpoo idea that there`s a magical economy out there; it`s just people!"

    Jesus. Really? I`m about to prove you unequivocally wrong. This will be fun for both of us. So let`s get started.

    Step 1:

    How do you define and measure a "good economy"?

  74. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:42 pm
    @lauriloo

    Oh, my, who`s attacking now??
    I`m attacking HG because he ALWAYS does this.

    Every time we start out nice and calm and have a decent discussion. After awhile, he loses it and just starts accusing me of being evil or heartless or apathetic. I don`t know what happens to him, but he just stops being a reasonable person and starts attacking.

    The problem is, during his attacks, he STILL doesn`t prove his points nor disprove my points; it`s very annoying.

    Meanwhile, we`ve already discussed that we each want the same thing - everyone to have a better life. We merely disagree on which method to best achieve that goal. We`ve discussed this several times, yet, without fail, he throws out a tantrum about me being heartless.
  75. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:44 pm
    @HG

    This will be fun for both of us. So let`s get started.
    I can`t wait. Last time I checked, an economy is nothing more than the transactions between people. So, if you take away people, you have no economy. So, people make up the economy.
  76. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:46 pm
    I have yet to hear any proof that what you are proposing (guess that`s no business regulation) would help people when history shows that no regulations on businesses has resulted in slave/child labor, rampant environmental damage and economic raping that caused the latest economic collapse, amongst other things.
  77. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:46 pm
    HA

    "Meanwhile, we`ve already discussed that we each want the same thing - everyone to have a better life. We merely disagree on which method to best achieve that goal. We`ve discussed this several times, yet, without fail, he throws out a tantrum about me being heartless."

    Because you DON`T want that. If you did you wouldn`t put Hong Kong number one on your list as a place that we should aspire to be more like. The poor in Hong Kong have absolutely ATROCIOUS lives and to set that up as a model MAKES you "evil or heartless or apathetic"
  78. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:47 pm
    HA

    I will repeat.

    How do you define and MEASURE a "good economy"?
  79. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:47 pm
    @HG

    How do you define and measure a "good economy"?
    An economy is the aggregate of wealth and the transactions involving that wealth.

    A good economy is one in which the transactions of wealth and resources results in a net gain of wealth.
  80. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm
    @lauriloo

    I have yet to hear any proof that what you are proposing (guess that`s no business regulation) would help people when history shows that no regulations on businesses has resulted in slave/child labor, rampant environmental damage and economic raping that caused the latest economic collapse, amongst other things.
    Uhh... history shows that excessive regulation leads to discrimination, corruption, crony capitalism, and the housing market collapse.

    I can provide several resources to demonstrate how the economic collapse was the result of government intervention. Yes, banks pulled the trigger. On the other hand, the government bought the gun, loaded it, pointed it at the public, and handed it to the banks. All of this was done with the government quietly whispering "go ahead, shoot" while also pointing a gun at the banks.
  81. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:50 pm
    HA

    "A good economy is one in which the transactions of wealth and resources results in a net gain of wealth."

    I want something less abstract. I want an exact formula that you can use to determine what IS and ISN`T a good economy.

    GNP/population?

    Something like that.
  82. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:52 pm
    @HG

    Because you DON`T want that.
    Yes, I do.

    If you did you wouldn`t put Hong Kong number one on your list as a place that we should aspire to be more like.
    Is their median standard of life improving or not? It is. Sadly, they did not inherit the vast wealth we did; it will take some time to get there. However, what we see is that they are constantly and vigorously improving.

    We aren`t. We`re stagnant. Forgive me, but having the median standard of life improve seems like a good thing to me. I guess it doesn`t to you though.

    The poor in Hong Kong have absolutely ATROCIOUS lives and to set that up as a model MAKES you "evil or heartless or apathetic"
    We have one hell of a headstart. They`re closing the gap. What does that tell you?

  83. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:54 pm
    @HG

    I want an exact formula that you can use to determine what IS and ISN`T a good economy.
    You want the impossible, then. You assume too much. We`re not that clever of a species to understand such a complex system. The best we can do is observe historical trends and look for improvement.

    There is not person on Earth who can give you such a formula. If someone tells you otherwise, they`re lying. If you believed them, you`re naive.
  84. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:59 pm
    HA

    "There is not person on Earth who can give you such a formula. If someone tells you otherwise, they`re lying. If you believed them, you`re naive."

    Really?

    Then what do you use to decide what is and isn`t the best economy?

    Is Austailia`s economy better than ours? Is ours better than austrailia`s? Sudan vs. paraguay. mexico vs. turkey.

    What is YOUR criteria?
  85. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 1:59 pm
    "You want the impossible, then. "

    Hmm, didn`t matter when you ask me something I couldn`t possibly do.
  86. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:01 pm
    HA

    "We have one hell of a headstart. They`re closing the gap. What does that tell you?"

    That it is easier to go from very bad to OK then from OK to ideal.

    Sudan`s economy may be improving quicker than ours. I don`t think that necessarily shows anything about Sudan is preferable to here.

    You never have constant exponential economic growth.
  87. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:04 pm
    @HG

    Then what do you use to decide what is and isn`t the best economy?
    I just said that you need to observe historical trends; I know I did. I just said it a couple of minutes ago.

    Is wealth/capita increasing or decreasing? Is it a positive or negative trajectory? Is the standard of life increasing or not? Is the median wage keeping up with CPI?

    Do you honestly think that there is an established, agreed upon way to determine which economy is best?

    I mean, don`t you think that Von Mises, Keynes, and Friedman all might disagree a little?
  88. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:05 pm
    "housing market collapse"

    How is excessive regulation the cause of the housing market collapse? Seems to me it was from banks freely handing out loans to people who couldn`t afford them because there were no regulations to prevent it. The gov is fixing that now.
  89. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:05 pm
    @lauriloo

    Hmm, didn`t matter when you ask me something I couldn`t possibly do.
    Did you seriously not get what I was doing? I was TRYING to get you to admit that there was no way for you to determine the point at which minimum wage increases suddenly, magically, go from positive to negative.

    How you did not understand that, I do not know.
  90. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:08 pm
    @lauriloo

    How is excessive regulation the cause of the housing market collapse?
    I`m sorry, were you under the impression that the banks were loaning the money out for mortgages? That`s adorable.

    By the beginning of 2008, 74% of mortgages were owned by Fannie and Freddie. Who told them to keep funneling cash into the housing market? Oh right, it was our government.

    74% of the cash for bad loans came from the government`s pets.
  91. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:10 pm
    Unions were created because workers were being abused by companies. The EPA was created because companies were not policing their own polluting ways. There`s a small number of companies with responsible, moral management who will give up some profits to do the right thing. The vast majority of companies worship the bottom line above all other concerns. History has taught us that all too well.
  92. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:12 pm
    I`m sorry. I don`t recall asking Fannie and Freddie for money when I bought any of my houses. It was always with a bank or mortgage house, even when it was an FHA loan.
  93. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:14 pm
    "How you did not understand that, I do not know."

    What I didn`t understand was what it had to do with someone suggesting a 100k minimum wage, which is so obviously stupid. Remember? The original subject?
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:15 pm
    @lauriloo

    There were really three broad actions that setup the bubble:

    1. The GSE`s were put on a mission to expand home-ownership for low-income families; they did this by buying up subprime and Alt-A loans;

    2. The Fed held interest-rates to unprecedentedly low values in a misguided effort to "stimulate" the economy;

    3. The government started adding new regulations and requirements for banks forcing them to demonstrate that they were "low-income friendly" while simultaneously promising a bailout if the scheme collapsed.

    Guess what? The scheme collapse. Guess what else? The banks got bailed out.
  95. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6171 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:16 pm
    cjeffblanchr-anyone who says that someone making minimum wage--almost half of what I make--is earning anything close to a livable wage--is an arrogant ass.
    No one saying that. The argument is that Minimium Wage IS NOT DESIGNED as a livable wage.

    Go ahead, raise the minimum wage to $15/hr. Many people will learn that their `new` minimum wage is exactly $0/hr.

    madduck-Which means that the state is subsidising employers by the back door.
    No, most are managing because they still live at home with momy & daddy. If you`re 40 years old and still on minimum wage, the issue is not the system.

    ultimakewl-Wbut they are expecting to be able to afford food
    No, they are expecting to be able to afford those concert tickets, because it was, after all, designed for kids still at home.
  96. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:17 pm
    @lauriloo

    I don`t recall asking Fannie and Freddie for money when I bought any of my houses. It was always with a bank or mortgage house, even when it was an FHA loan.
    What do you think the bank did with that mortgage? They sold it to Fannie and Freddie, who happily took it off their hands as they were mandated to do.

    So, now the bank can issue more bad loans and sell them to Fannie and Freddie. Do you see the conflict of interests here?

    They essentially told the banks that they needed to issue bad loans, but that Fannie and Freddie would just come along and buy them up anyways. Well of course the banks issued bad loans then.
  97. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6171 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:17 pm
    HumanAction-There`s only one logic.
    Types of logic: Informal, Formal, Symbolic, Mathematical, Syllogistic, Propositional, Predicate, Modal, Philosophical & Computational.

    HolyGod-Walmart would have 8 year olds working as cashiers
    While that would be bad, I don`t think there would be a reduction in competence from what they already hire.

    747Pilot-The question is how did they get from here, to there?
    The Replicator.
  98. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6171 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:20 pm
    lauriloo-you don`t want to enable any programs
    It`s called `taking responsibility for yourself`.

    lauriloo-Seems to me it was from banks freely handing out loans to people who couldn`t afford them because there were no regulations to prevent it.
    Actually, the REVERSE it true. The were handing out loans to those who could afford it EXPRESSLY because the goverment REQUIRED them to.

    THAT`S how over regulations caused the housing market collapse
  99. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:23 pm
    @MeGrendel

    Types of logic: Informal, Formal, Symbolic, Mathematical, Syllogistic, Propositional, Predicate, Modal, Philosophical & Computational.
    Agreed, it was poorly worded. What I was trying to get at is that their is no "your logic" or "my logic" which is in contrast to reason. Logic is a predefined set of rules and statements are therefore either logical or illogical; again, this is in contrast to reason.
  100. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:27 pm
    "What do you think the bank did with that mortgage? They sold it to Fannie and Freddie, who happily took it off their hands as they were mandated to do. "

    No. All three of my mortgages were purchased by another bank shortly after I got the loan.
  101. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:30 pm
    HA

    "Is wealth/capita increasing or decreasing? Is it a positive or negative trajectory? Is the standard of life increasing or not? Is the median wage keeping up with CPI? "

    These are all about GROWTH. So as far as your concern a third world nation`s economy is better because it is slowly growing than if a country was full of nothing but rich happy people where everyone succeed but it never got better?

  102. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:36 pm
    "Many people will learn that their `new` minimum wage is exactly $0/hr. "

    That has never happened in all the other times the minimum wage has gone up. A business needs a certain number of employees to function. period. Even if a few people are laid off initially as a reaction, the business will have to rehire in order to function.

    "It`s called `taking responsibility for yourself`. "
    There`s only so much "helping oneself" one can do when you are living on the edge of or in poverty. One of the best things about having money is it lets you have options to better your life. You can afford more education, pay for someone to watch your child while you get that education, etc. Without gov programs or a higher min wage, there`s very little resources for a person to get the education to advance to a better job. How can someone working two min wage jobs WITH a kid go to college too?
  103. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:37 pm
    @lauriloo

    All three of my mortgages were purchased by another bank shortly after I got the loan.
    If I could write a blank stare, I would.

    By 2008, which is when the housing market collapse started to begin full-swing, the GSE`s owned 74% of mortgages; it was a mortgage-crisis.

    Do you really think that these things are unrelated?
  104. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:40 pm
    HA

    You know what. Here is the best thing I can say on the matter.

    Small businesses care about their workers. Corporations don`t. So since corporations don`t care the government should step in.

    I run a small business. I had a very good year. My company got a large contract for 2014. Because of this I gave my employees bonuses and took their rate for 2014 from $40, $42, and $50 / hr to $43, $45, and $54 / hr. Now I didn`t NEED to do that. They were happy. I could have kept their wage the same and kept more for myself. OR I could have fired them all, hired kids straight out of school at $20 / hr and kept WAY more for myself.

    When an employee`s wage is determined by an accountant in a cubicle 2000 miles away whose sole purpose is to increase profit the worker will ALWAYS get f.ucked.
  105. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:40 pm
    @HG

    These are all about GROWTH.
    Yes, they are. I think you will agree that economic growth is better than a lack of economic growth.

    So as far as your concern a third world nation`s economy is better because it is slowly growing than if a country was full of nothing but rich happy people where everyone succeed but it never got better?
    Well of course. The third-world nation is improving; the median standard of living is improving. We should all think that such a situation is better than the alternative.
  106. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:41 pm
    An article disputing that
  107. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:44 pm
    @HG

    Small businesses care about their workers. Corporations don`t.
    I agree with you entirely here. I mean, I couldn`t have put it better myself. I absolutely despise large corporations; very few of them have legitimately earned their massive presence.

    So since corporations don`t care the government should step in.
    ... and then somehow we get this? Massive monopolizing corporations are able to succeed because of government intervention; we`ve seen it time and time again.

    As the government gets more involved with business, we get more corporations and fewer small businesses; it`s crony capitalism.

    I bet right now you would agree that government has been corrupted by business as is not looking out for the interests of the general public. But then, somehow, you`d also turn around and say that we need government to get even more involved with business. What?
  108. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:47 pm
    Another one about Fannie
  109. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:49 pm
    HA

    "I bet right now you would agree that government has been corrupted by business as is not looking out for the interests of the general public. But then, somehow, you`d also turn around and say that we need government to get even more involved with business. What?"

    Yes. People is government are corrupt.

    I think the government should be WAY less involved in business.

    The government should step in to protect people and the environment from business abuse. It should be their only role.
  110. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:49 pm
    @lauriloo

    OK... Five articles supporting my stance...

    1. AEI

    2. WTF Finance

    3. Atlantic

    4. Commentary Mag

    5.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:52 pm
    @HG

    Yes. People is government are corrupt.
    Let`s be entirely fair; people in general are corrupt - government and business included.

    I think the government should be WAY less involved in business.
    Why?

    The government should step in to protect people and the environment from business abuse. It should be their only role.
    Isn`t that the entire concept of the judicial system? As in, if someone has wronged you, you have a right to seek damages.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:54 pm
    HA

    I still need you to define some metrics that show which economy is good and what is bad so we can continue our discussion.

    Otherwise I will use GDP/capita as that is the easiest and most common measure of an economy`s strength.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:55 pm
    @lauriloo

    We can sit here and throw articles back and forth at each other all day.

    Do you seriously believe that the GSE`s, who owned 74% OF MORTGAGES during the MORTGAGE-CRISIS, aren`t at fault? I mean, at the absolute best, that`s just being willfully ignorant.

    A government that threatens to punish banks that don`t give loans to people who aren`t likely to pay them back, and then proceeds to order their pet GSE`s to buy up said loans, is probably responsible for the problem of their being too many bad loans.

    Just saying.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 2:57 pm
    HA

    "Isn`t that the entire concept of the judicial system? As in, if someone has wronged you, you have a right to seek damages."

    No. Not unless the government has mad the wronging a law and therefore it is illegal.

    If it was legal for walmart employees to punch me in the face every time I came in I couldn`t go to court for it since what they did was perfectly legal.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:00 pm
    @HG

    I still need you to define some metrics that show which economy is good and what is bad so we can continue our discussion.
    I`ve already told you that it`s impossible. You`re asking me to give you Santa Claus; I can`t. Even if you really want Santa Claus, I can`t give him to you; he`s not real. He doesn`t exist.

    Otherwise I will use GDP/capita as that is the easiest and most common measure of an economy`s strength.
    GDP/capita isn`t a measure of an economy`s strength. Rather, it is a measurement of the total wealth of a country at a given time.

    GDP/capita does nothing to tell you if the median standard of living is increasing. Even if GDP/capita does increase, it shows nothing about distribution of wealth nor of consumer prices.

    Most likely, you should be looking for an increase in the ratio of median income to consumer price index.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:03 pm
    @HG

    No. Not unless the government has mad the wronging a law and therefore it is illegal.
    ... but, isn`t that how laws are made in the first place. Most of the time, it takes a few unlucky people to realize there`s a problem, and then a law is created after the fact.

    If it was legal for walmart employees to punch me in the face every time I came in I couldn`t go to court for it since what they did was perfectly legal.
    On the flip side, if it`s legal to dump (x) ppm of mercury, and you get sick because Acme dumped (x) ppm of Mercury, you won`t be able to go to court either.

  • Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6171 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:04 pm
    lauriloo-"That has never happened in all the other times the minimum wage has gone up."

    And yet you offer no proof of that.

    I, on the other hand, will offer a Ball State University study that suggests the 2008 minimum wage increase may have led to the elimination of 550,000 jobs

    And remember ANY increase in costs is usually offset by layoffs. Look at the people currently being laid off or hours reduced due to Obamacare. (I forget, is it racist this week to call it that?)

    lauriloo-"There`s only so much "helping oneself" one can do when you are living on the edge of or in poverty. "
    I was not `on the edge` of poverty, I was full blown in the middle of it.

    I`ve seen those with `no opportunities` succeed by working at it. & I`
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:09 pm
    HA

    "... but, isn`t that how laws are made in the first place. Most of the time, it takes a few unlucky people to realize there`s a problem, and then a law is created after the fact."

    Yes. And people are doing that now. SO let the government make a law to raise the minimum wage.

    "On the flip side, if it`s legal to dump (x) ppm of mercury, and you get sick because Acme dumped (x) ppm of Mercury, you won`t be able to go to court either."

    Huh? How is that the flipside? That`s what I`m talking about. That is an instance where we need the government to step in and set a law for what a business can and can`t do.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:15 pm
    @HG

    Yes. And people are doing that now. SO let the government make a law to raise the minimum wage.
    ... how did you get there from what I said? We all agree that it`s wrong to shoot someone, and it is rightfully illegal to do so. There is still quite a bit of disagreement about whether it`s right or wrong to raise the minimum wage, as well as whether the consequences will outweigh the positives. They`re hardly comparable.

    That is an instance where we need the government to step in and set a law for what a business can and can`t do.
    Ah, I misread - not so much of a flipside.

    What I`m saying is that in our examples, the government already has stepped in and caused damage by doing so. Is the government more likely to help you, or Acme Oil with new regulations?

    It isn`t you.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:25 pm
    HA

    "What I`m saying is that in our examples, the government already has stepped in and caused damage by doing so. Is the government more likely to help you, or Acme Oil with new regulations?

    It isn`t you."

    Which is NOT what we are discussing here. Is the government corrupt? Yes.

    However, they do help us. You don`t think the FDA protects us? Could they protect us MORE or BETTER? Of course, but without ANY government regulation our food and drugs would be WAY worse than they are now. Is that even debatable?
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:29 pm
    @HG

    Is that even debatable?
    Oh yes, very much so. There is a very strong argument that the FDA causes far more harm than good. The problem is, we only ever see the good; the bad isn`t obvious.

    For example, we can see that the FDA prevented Thalidomide from coming to the US.

    However, do we see the people who die because they can`t get the new drug offered in Europe? Not so much.

    Read into it a little bit and you will see that it is very much a debate.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:36 pm
    CONSERVATIVES:

    Australia has a minimum wage of $16..8/hr

    They are higher on the scale of economic freedom than us.

    They have less wealth inequality than us.

    Their GDP per capita is higher than us.

    Their median income is higher than ours.

    Their unemployment rate is lower than ours.



    Can ANYONE tell me why they can have a $15/hr minimum wage but we can`t?

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:41 pm
    @HG

    Can ANYONE tell me why they can have a $15/hr minimum wage but we can`t?
    Well, I`m not a Conservative, but you did ask for "ANYONE"?

    They have it because they voted for it and it passed; it`s that simple.

    The statistics you`ve shown are lovely, but they don`t show the effects of the law. Rather, they show how Australia compares to the US.

    What isn`t shown is how the law impacted Australia. Did the economy improve after the law, or didn`t it? That`s not what`s being shown here.

    I don`t think anyone came into this argument with the statement that Australia was doing worse than the US, which is what you`ve disproven.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:45 pm
    HA

    "The statistics you`ve shown are lovely, but they don`t show the effects of the law. Rather, they show how Australia compares to the US."

    What they show is that a country can have a higher minimum wage than us and the people can still be financially better off by every metric I have than our country with it`s $7.25/hr minimum wage.

    So your, and other`s, constant insinuation that it would spell economic doom seems rather unfounded.

    "Did the economy improve"

    Well how the holy f.uck can I tell you that when measuring an economy is impossible in your opinion?


  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:52 pm
    @HG

    What they show is that a country can have a higher minimum wage than us and the people can still be financially better off by every metric I have than our country with it`s $7.25/hr minimum wage.
    I agree, you`ve shown this.

    So your, and other`s, constant insinuation that it would spell economic doom seems rather unfounded.
    First off, you`re being dramatic again. I don`t remember anyone saying that it would be economic doom; rather, just that the pros don`t outweigh the cons.

    Second, you didn`t actually show what you think you did. You still haven`t shown how the minimum wage laws affected Australia.

    You`re assuming that it`s a fair comparison between countries; it`s not. I can show how France has a higher minimum wage than us, and are behind us in the categories you`ve given. This doesn`t tell us how the minimum wage affects the economy.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 3:57 pm
    LIBERALS:

    France has a minimum wage of $12.2/hr.

    They are lower on the scale of economic freedom than us.

    I don`t know anything about their wealth inequality.

    Their GDP per capita is lower than ours.

    Their average disposable income is lower than ours.

    Their unemployment rate is higher than ours.

    Their median income is lower than ours.

    Can anyone tell me what this shows about how minimum wage affects an economy?

    Nothing.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:00 pm
    HA

    "
    Can anyone tell me what this shows about how minimum wage affects an economy?"

    See that is TOTALLY disingenuous. I never said that the minimum wage caused or affected anything in Australia. All I did is show that a country can have a higher minimum wage and rate higher than us in all those economic metrics.

    Then I simply asked you to tell me why they can and we can`t.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:09 pm
    @HG

    I never said that the minimum wage caused or affected anything in Australia.
    Oh c`mon, man, you totally implied that the increased minimum wage didn`t hurt the Australian economy.

    All I did is show that a country can have a higher minimum wage and rate higher than us in all those economic metrics.
    Yes, you did. Similarly, I showed that a country can have a higher minimum wage than the US, and lower rates in those economic metrics.

    Then I simply asked you to tell me why they can and we can`t.
    I`ve already answered this; it`s the same reason France has a high minimum wage but worse economic indicators - different starting points.

    We CAN have a high minimum wage and still be successful. That`s not the important question though. The question is whether or not increasing the minimum wage will make us more or less successful.
  • Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:10 pm
    Each and every time the minimum wage goes up?
    > The price of half the things you buy goes up.
    > Those who used to make more than minimum are now poorer because of it.

    Of course the very rich don`t care at all. That`s the irony of this: the POOR get hurt, the Middle Class get hurt, the RICH don`t feel it one bit.

    What about everyone on fixed income? They get POORER too, more than anyone else.

    Histrionics about "conservatives" just make you look like idiots btw...
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:18 pm
    @HG

    Regarding Australia, I`m already finding quite a bit of evidence that the increased minimum wage has decimated the minimum wage earners.

    Feb 2008 - Dec 2011: Despite 623,600 new jobs, the 15-19yo group lost 92,200. 63% of all jobs lost in Dec. 2011 were teenage jobs.

    Teenage unemployment has rise from 13.6% in Dec 2008 to 16.3% in Dec 2010 and 17.3% in Dec. 2011.

    In the same timeframe, the number of part-time workers has rise 10.7%.

    Sydney Morning Herald

    This is just the very first thing I`ve found, but it certainly looks like their minimum-wage class is being hurt.
  • Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:25 pm
    How about we gather up the richest people in the world and feed them to the poor.
  • Profile photo of Runemang
    Runemang Male 30-39
    2676 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:28 pm
    I`m all for a better living for people, I really really do (hey, I`m not far from it). The problem is that increasing minimum wage doesn`t have a good impact. Wages go up, cost of operating the business go up, prices for goods and services go up, ... you have a little more income and now everything is a little more expensive. Right back where we started. The problem is, again, rich and poor are getting further and further apart.

    The best way to "fix this minimum wage problem" for the overall good is for minimum wage to go up and the rich to just eat the hit ... but that will never ... ever ... ever ... ever happen. So anything the poor get MORE of, the rich will recoup their losses by taking it back somewhere else.
  • Profile photo of Runemang
    Runemang Male 30-39
    2676 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 4:32 pm
    By the way, I`m above minimum wage, and my employer has had a pay-increase freeze for 12 years now ... so for people like me, things just continue to get worse because everything continues to get more expensive while no one`s legally forced to increase my pay at all. I worked my ass off to get to "middle class" and now I`m worse off then when I was "poor".
  • Profile photo of Xprez
    Xprez Male 30-39
    676 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 5:04 pm
    Conservatives are FOR raising the minimum wage.
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 8:48 pm
    The constitution does not give the government the authority to dictate the terms of private contracts.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:05 pm
    OldOllie

    "The constitution does not give the government the authority to dictate the terms of private contracts.

    Why is that so hard to understand?"

    The constitution does not give the government the authority to dictate that I can`t stab you in the face either.

    OK. Now your turn to list something.
  • Profile photo of Laran
    Laran Male 40-49
    467 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:34 pm
    Rune,HG,HA

    Blue collar workers here have mostly been decimated at the Enterprise Bargaining table.
    It all started with the introduction of the Australian Workplace Agreement.
    Many workers simply did not have the negotiating skills, or knowledge of the law.
    Things got bad and individual agreements were abandoned in favor of collective agreements.
    Reps were quickly chosen and "trained".
    (my training consisted of a 2 day course before being thrown in the deep end of the pool).
    Employer tactics we were warned about (and encountered)were things like:

    keeping the rep so busy with normal duties that they cannot do anything else

    Making access to resourses like internet difficult

    even insinuating (very carefully) that your job may be on the line.

    the result is that bosses have time to plan strategy and you dont.
    Reps get overwhelmed.
    A good trick is to hire your union lawyers to help represent you.this stops
  • Profile photo of Laran
    Laran Male 40-49
    467 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 9:39 pm
    this stops a lot of the games.
    The situation here reminds me of the song "sixteen tons".

    A lot of workers just accept it as their lot.
    If better jobs were available they would take them but they are stuck.

    Some (like myself) become self-sufficient and vanish from the system
  • Profile photo of Laran
    Laran Male 40-49
    467 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:25 pm
    I also find it interesting that the conditions for the workers at my old employers have eroded so quickly.
    The chick doing the role of E.B. Rep now, has gained all sorts of useless conditions but lost the important ones like sick leave.
    Trading sick leave & pay rates for maternity leave or blood donors leave in a male workforce is just stupid.
    the lads never really use that sort of leave.
    I`m still trying to figure out how she was so stupid as to trade in leave loading.
    Once you lose these things it is almost impossible to get them back.
  • Profile photo of Laran
    Laran Male 40-49
    467 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:42 pm
    The boss might like you- but he loves his bank account a whole lot more.
  • Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2353 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 10:54 pm
    Notice that he mentions that he is in college and his employer works around his schedule. That is because it is a minimum wage job and they expect that you are going to better yourself and move on. Jobs that pay better expect you to work on their terms. If people can`t afford children, don`t have children.
    I`m not against anyone making more money.
    I`m against the government, that can`t control it`s own spending, forcing businesses to do anything.
  • Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 11:12 pm
    $15 minimun wage? Expect $6 milk and $5 eggs.
  • Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 11:56 pm
    @Zeegrr60 ~ I`m certain everybody already expects it regardless of what happens to minimum wage.

    Cost of Living has been increasing not-stop for my entire life yet wages have remained relatively stagnate for over 30 years, now.

    The price of "Eggs and milk" has already increased 300% in the same amount of time that the minimum wage has increased 18%

    One, obviously, has nothing to do with the other.
  • Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    January 25, 2014 at 11:59 pm
    "The constitution does not give the government the authority to dictate the terms of private contracts."

    Old Ollie is apparently too ignorant to have ever heard of civil court or Tort Law.
  • Profile photo of Tupinambis
    Tupinambis Male 18-29
    568 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 12:47 am
    :/

    I agree with OnOffOnOffOn... these are meant to be transitory jobs. These people are permanent problems that should not be allowed to breed. Harsh I know... let it soak in...
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 7:34 am
    @Laran

    Thank you for sharing that information with us.

    @sleepy

    Old Ollie is apparently too ignorant to have ever heard of civil court or Tort Law.
    Tort law is established by the individual states whereas the Constitution was established by the federal government.

    There are many different governments within the US; you should become familiar with them and their responsibilities.

    This is also the defense to HG`s question. Stabbing is protected and defensed by the states, whereas the Constitution is federal.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 9:57 am
    HA

    "This is also the defense to HG`s question. Stabbing is protected and defensed by the states, whereas the Constitution is federal."

    Well, I meant I stabbed you in one state and then crossed into another state and then stabbed him. Then the FBI gets involved, which is federal.

    ;)
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 12:43 pm
    @HG

    Oh, well in that case, it`s in the Constitution. Article IV, Section 2. It`s called the Interstate Rendition Clause.

    I got to stay on top of my Constitution knowledge you know, considering all the sh*t I talk. XD
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6777 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 1:19 pm
    HA

    "Oh, well in that case, it`s in the Constitution. Article IV, Section 2."

    I disagree. It states that if you commit a crime in one state and flee to another state that state must send you back if requested to. It is about extradition.

    The fbi doesn`t do that.

    It says nothing about federal courts, federal charges, and federal police.

    It does address slaves though, since it is perfect and should never be changed.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 26, 2014 at 1:36 pm
    @HG

    The fbi doesn`t do that.
    The FBI and our government do a lot of things they shouldn`t do.

    I was only correcting your statement to Ollie about there being nothing in the Constitution to address interstate crime; there is.

    It does address slaves though, since it is perfect and should never be changed.
    Even the founders knew it wasn`t perfect; that`s why they added the entire concept of Amendments. Anyone who thinks otherwise is ignorant.
  • Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    January 27, 2014 at 9:19 am
    LOL. Why argue the Constitution? It`s irrelevant. We have the "Patriot"Act,and until THAT`S gone, we have 0 rights. Ask FEMA.
  • Leave a Reply