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Date: 12/02/13 11:11 AM

53 Responses to Pope Francis Aattacks Greed Aand Capitalism [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3862 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:11 am
    Link: Pope Francis Aattacks Greed Aand Capitalism - Conservatives what say you? Do you know more than the Pope?
  2. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4907 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:15 am
    I like this man.Actualy i think he is the best between the world leader in charge.
  3. Profile photo of Ilikelogic
    Ilikelogic Male 40-49
    550 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:46 am
    He`d better attack and eliminate the capitals in the IAB Ttitles
  4. Profile photo of Ilikelogic
    Ilikelogic Male 40-49
    550 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:49 am
    Ooo, 5Cats and CrakrJack won`t like this..
  5. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:00 pm
    What a weird description. Progressives have always thought they know more than the Pope, and now suddenly they agree and act like he is the gold standard of intellectual thought.

    Fact is, and the evidence is clear, that Capitalism - more than any other economic system by far - has raised living standards and lifted more people out of poverty. That`s not a Conservative idea, even. That`s even a liberal idea. It`s actual one of the original liberal ideas. If you`re liberal and disagree, you`re not an actual liberal. Go read about actual liberalism, and the Latin root for liberal.

    Here is Bono praising Capitalism.

  6. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:31 pm
    Well... I`m not Catholic, so I do not hold the Pope in any higher regard than I do any other Catholic.

    Greed is bad, I can agree with him on that - it is a common thread in The Bible. That`s a spiritual matter. Capitalism... not so much. It is outside of his area of expertise.
  7. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:35 pm
    The pope is saying nothing new according to Catholic doctrine. The Catholic church has been operating on a tithes distribution system during the middle ages where a parish sends a percentage of their tithe to be spent in the parish, the regional Bishops funds, and lastly the Vatican. This sort of economic control had been a big factor in church control before the Age of Reason wrestled control back into the Monarchy, see the Church of Englands creation.

    Pope Francis is a modern Distributionist.
  8. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36646 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:47 pm

    Greed is not bad. Greed is wanting to succeed, to accomplish more, to do better for yourself and/or loved ones.

    "Excessive" greed is not good. But then most excesses are bad for you.
  9. Profile photo of Doiknowyou
    Doiknowyou Male 30-39
    982 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:54 pm
    @Gerry: Isn`t greed the excess of "want"?
  10. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:00 pm
    The pope is just as socially retrograde as any of his clerics (on gays, women etc. and incidentally that`s what Cons like about him) but economically progressive. It`s this economic progressive streak that speaks to us.

    Commenting on economic systems and justice is an esteemed theological tradition, St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that, "Whatever we posses in excess of our own needs, belongs to the poor." This is not new, but it`s telling that such a statement makes headlines today. If he`s got larda$$ limbaugh calling him a "Marxist" he must be doing something right.
  11. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:06 pm
    This is an ideologically moot point, as to accomplish such redistribution would take an immense amount of force; unlike many IABers, I am certain that the Pope would not advocate such a thing.
  12. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:11 pm
    @QueenZira

    I`m not really convinced that you are "current" on the Pope`s social beliefs.

    While he does not advocate for abortions, he has welcomed gays into the church and has called for a "deeper" presence of women within. These are considered to be sharply contrasting with the church`s prior stances.

    Learn About Things Which You Preach About
  13. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:17 pm
    The pope says he`s not to judge, but the catechism says non celibate gays are not to be encouraged in their "Lifestyle". He talks big on women having a bigger role in the church, then parrots his predecessors perfectly to the word that "discussion of women`s ordination is definitively closed."

    I`m up on the news, thanks. Nothing he says is exactly new or even particularly hopeful for the church in the larger world context. Pretty words and empty gestures do not reform make.
  14. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:26 pm
    And the Pope`s economics degree is from... where, exactly?

    I wonder if Martin Feldstein has any thoughts on G-d that might trump anything the Pope might say on that subject? Stick to what you know and shut up about the rest, lest you sound like a fool.
  15. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:29 pm
    @QueenZira

    Color me confused then. Specifically which statement of his was it that makes you think he takes issue with homosexuality?

    Perhaps one of these?

    "...who am I to judge them?"
    "They shouldn`t be marginalized."
    "They`re our brothers."

    As for the women part, I believe you are doing too much "interpreting" and not enough reading; my missus has the same problem.

    For example, the quote you refer to ("The church says no. That door is closed") clearly says that it is the church which prevents women from gaining positions of power within. For some reason, you`ve interpreted it to mean that the Pope is against women.

    I have no idea why you`ve done this.
  16. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:29 pm
    Definitely not Marxism. Marx called religion the "Opium of the Masses". He viewed religion as another tool used by the elite to keep the common man down. Limbaugh listeners are manipulated, Limbaugh is their opiate of their morning drive. He keeps the masses from understanding true values.
  17. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:32 pm
    HA, if it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck, then it sure as hell aint a chicken...

    Actions (and official policy) speak louder than words.
  18. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:32 pm
    "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

    "Only a ghost can exist without material property; only a slave can work with no right to the product of his effort. The doctrine that `human rights` are superior to `property rights` simply means that some human beings have the right to make property out of others; since the competent have nothing to gain from the incompetent, it means the right of the incompetent to own their betters and to use them as productive cattle."

    --John Galt
  19. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:37 pm
    @QueenZira

    Sure, but you come with the preconceived notion that he alone has the capacity to make the changes. I am certain he is meeting resistance every step of the way.
  20. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:39 pm
    "I give people Ayn Rand, with trappings."- Anton Lavey, founder of The Church of Satan.


    Gee whiz avatar, I wonder what the pope thinks of that one! I`m sure both he and his Boss are just spiffed.
  21. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:51 pm
    Nice non-argument. How about this one, in defense of money:

    "Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out."

    -Francisco D`Anconia
  22. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:09 pm
    Uh no, Ayn Rand got into this mix. Oh poor czarina pissed about the fortune she lost. Lets ask Greenspan about the fortunes he lost...

    I hate Randroidism.
  23. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:21 pm
    He`s not saying anything that isn`t already abundantly clear--the current wealth distribution isn`t sustainable, it`s bad for the economy and it`s bad for everyone but the 1% of "haves". Fine that you think you`re only temporarily, accidentally not one of them, but, every time things have gotten like this in the past, violent correction occurred. I suspect it will this time, too.
  24. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:31 pm
    @SmagBoy1

    All these are true. I like what I hear from the Pope, but do not trust his solutions.
  25. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:39 pm
    @AvatarJohn--That book was not worth the paper it was printed on. I could have gotten much cheaper and more effective toilet paper with half the arrogance. Ayn Rand is an amateur and her "philosophy" sounds like a stubborn teenager who thinks they know *everything* about how the world works. In fact, that`s her most ardently faithful demographic.

    So there you go.

    In response to the actual post, I think it`s funny that the previous Pope was written off as a whackjob, and yet now that...*sigh* "liberals" (I don`t mean that in the derogatory connotation it`s usually given) find themselves agreeing with the new one, they point to him as a source of inarguable truth.

    Conservatives can disagree with the new pope in the same way that liberals disagreed with the old one. Contrary to his religion`s belief, his rank/status does not imply infallibility. Arguments should be able to stand regardless of who makes them.
  26. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32761 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:43 pm
    #1 He`s a Pope, not an economist, historian, anthropologist & etc. He`s an expert on Catholicism, not global economics.

    #2 He claims trickle-down has never worked? But it worked exactly as planned in the USA. The flip side of the coin is: When in all history has CENTRAL PLANNED SOCIETY worked? China? USSR? Cambodia? Venezuela? Cuba?
    Just how "free and equal" were Cambodians under Pol Pot? Equally free to be tortured and die?

    #3 Plenty of "liberals" love & support capitalism too! There`s plenty of "liberal" billionaires...
  27. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:47 pm
    Ever heard of a Fiscal Conservative? Don`t have to agree with the `morality` BS to see the economics makes sense
  28. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:51 pm
    Trickle down worked exactly as planned in the US?! What a joke. Have you looked at the wealth distribution here? The middle class is shrinking (and has been for 30 years) and corrected income for everyone except the upper few percent is GOING DOWN!!!! Facts
  29. Profile photo of spreekiller
    spreekiller Male 40-49
    46 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:52 pm
    Although there is a good bit of crazy in this link there is some interesting facts too. catholic church Anyway, my basic point is that the church has a poo ton of money, and until the pope and all the little minions are living like mother teresa lived , then any thing out of thier mouths is garbage.
    @drpoofessor Little harsh on Ayn Rand, her general "philosophy" does raise interesting questions on the limit of societal responsibility unless you believe in Communism, but we have proof at how well humans work that model.
  30. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:59 pm
    Conservatives hate the new Pope because FoxNews tells them to. You didn`t think for a minute they had minds of their own did you?
  31. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    6924 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:04 pm
    5Cats,

    How did it work exactly as planned?
  32. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:20 pm
    Smagboy, good straw men. Denmark is more unequal than us.

    But it doesn`t really matter. What you want is the poor to be poorer, if it could mean the rich would be poorer. The fact is that our poverty rate stopped decreasing once we began wealth distribution in the 60s. LBJs Great Society and its legacy has spent over 15 trillion on eliminating poverty, but it just stopped eliminating it.

    And even under Reagan`s fake "trickle-down" economics, government grew. Under Clinton "end of big government" era, and Bush. It`s just gotten bigger, people are worse off the bigger it gets. Also, the stupid Keynesian economic theory of mandatory yearly inflation hurts the poor more.

    And what about Quantitative Easing? 85 bil a MONTH to the rich! Yeah, you`re for the poor.
  33. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:29 pm
    Andrew, I didn`t build a strawman. The data all back me up. Follow the link I provided.
  34. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:30 pm
    "Greed is wanting to succeed, to accomplish more, to do better for yourself and/or loved ones."

    Greed is defined as the "intense and selfish desire for something." I don`t think you can define what you said as selfish.
  35. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:30 pm
    As for Denmark, good for them. If they`re population was even a fiftieth of ours, I`d care.
  36. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32761 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:45 pm
    5Cats, How did it work exactly as planned?

    Lowered inflation, increased growth, for almost 10 years.
    Sure, it took 2 years (apx) to be felt, but it`s about the best, sustainable economic period of any major nation in modern times.

    If "trickle down" is so evil? Why did Obama re-sign the Bush tax cuts, which also spurred the economy (but not as much)? Twice?

    "Wealth redistribution is all about the concentration of power".
    You know what happens EVERY time governments get too big and too powerful?
    (Hint: it`s not `utopia`.)
    When the Government alone decides who is "equal" or not? Inequality always skyrockets.
  37. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 6:33 pm
    This is a pretty interesting fellow! Hopefully he brings some excellent changes!
  38. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 7:23 pm
    You just redirect me to some business insider link. That doesn`t tell me anything. That doesn`t mean your Keynesian solution is the answer to X problem and Y problem. Bumping up their wage to 15/hr, the classic and least creative solution, is definitely noble in intentions. But it will not work. Just fire 3 out of 10, make the other 7 work harder to justify the extra wage. Or….get nifty new machines. They`ve already replaced cashiers. It`s just the beginning.

    I agree we shouldn`t care about Denmark. But Scandinavia`s success is often used by people cut from your cloth as the "ideal progressive model". This disproves that. They are unequal.

    You concentrate wealth in the state, you will usually increase inequality. The rich are disproportionately represented in the Central Planner class, they can use this power to self-enrich themselves. That`s exactly what`s happening.
  39. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 7:44 pm
    Here`s an idea, you can tax the G20 to feed the poor nations.

    lol
  40. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 7:58 pm
    @madest
    I don`t hate the Pope, I actually respect him a great deal - on Religious matters. I`m not Catholic, so I he is of no real importance to me, he`s no more infallible than I am, but he`s likely a good man.

    Has Fox News even said something about the new Pope that was against him?
  41. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32761 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:14 pm
    @Draculya:
    "Tax the rich
    To feed the poor
    `Til there are no
    Rich no more..."
    - 10 Years After

    The point is: once you take all the money from the rich, they`ll be poor too. Who`s going to "feed the poor" then?
  42. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:22 pm
    @5Cats you miss my point. Rich nations can`t be taxed by the poor unless they consent. There comes a point where rich nations just give the middle finger and let the likes of Greece and Spain and well, most of sub-Saharan Africa burn and starve.

    Is it right? No. Can it be made right? I wouldn`t know how to even start.
  43. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:50 pm
    Well, that pretty well shatters the myth of papal infallibility. Turn`s out they guy`s just another liberal f***tard.
  44. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 12:07 am
    "Well, that pretty well shatters the myth of papal infallibility. Turn`s out they guy`s just another liberal f***tard."

    I suppose you haven`t been happy with a pope since Pius XII.
  45. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 1:21 am
    Here you go. Argue with the facts or not. Your choice.
  46. Profile photo of randomxnp
    randomxnp Male 30-39
    1293 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 2:23 am
    He just does not understand capitalism. He thinks statist / corporatism (sometimes called "crony capitalism") is free-market capitalism, so in that yes he is just another socialist. Hence he uses a socialist misnomer, of trickle-down, and assumes that the rich must be selfless to assist the poor.

    The entire point of capitalism is that interactions benefit both sides, so that selfishness on the part of the rich helps those whose services they require. They help those who need investment and can give a return on that investment, who in turn employ those who are willing to work and would otherwise be poor. It is not trickle down, it is a living economy.

    The left have this bizarre idea that the wealthy are like Smaug, content to sit on their piled wealth.

    This pope has said some good things. Now, like every deeply religious person, he says something that makes no sense whatever. Like many of them, he is talking about his own ignorance.
  47. Profile photo of randomxnp
    randomxnp Male 30-39
    1293 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 2:25 am
    Smagboy

    That is a YouTube video, not the facts. It is also irrelevant to the issue. Only those who, like the pope, misunderstand free-market economics could mistake this for something relevant.
  48. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    578 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 7:55 am
    As a cradle-to-grave Catholic, a Pope speaking ultimately about the idolitry of money isn`t exactly earth-shattering news to me. Here I think people are reading in politics to his words where it fits their own views. I can`t imagine any sane person would compare Reagan administration results with many other third world nations and claim some African authoritarian regime, for example, has done a better job at alleviating poverty. But what about the Obama-ist policy? Wasn`t that supposed to have made us all equal in the US by now? Look around and it`s clear the economic gaps have only widened and continue to do so uner horrible policy like Obamacare. The 1%ers, including many a mouthy uber-rich liberal, are doing much better while the poor are getting poorer. Ultimately, I think the Pope is challenging us all, believers or not, to do better. For me, I doubt I can change global financial policy, but I can pick up the cross every day and try to follow Jesus`s example.
  49. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 10:19 pm
    I suppose you haven`t been happy with a pope since Pius XII.
    You seem to have forgotten the role that John Paul II played in ending communism in Poland and Eastern Europe alongside Walesa, Reagan, and Thatcher. Later in his life he became weak, and the papacy was controlled by socialist Vatican bureaucrats -- the same bunch of Marxist idiots who elected this f***tard.
  50. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 10:24 pm
    The left have this bizarre idea that the wealthy are like Smaug, content to sit on their piled wealth.
    @randomxnp Don`t you know that rich people convert all their money to $100 bills and keep it in a special room so whenever they want, they can go wallow in it naked?
  51. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 4:57 am
    @OldOllie
    Yeah... I`m not rich enough, so I convert it all into $1s so I can pretend.
  52. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 5:54 am
    This Pope admits he`s human. And still better than the Nazi Pope. I laugh at these things. Imagine the guy in charge of your make-believe friend in the sky is in on the joke.
  53. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3862 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 10:16 am
    I don`t agree with the pope on many issues at all. I find it reassuring that even the Pope realizes this type of greed that we have now is unsustainable and needs to have an intervention. Hell I`m not even Catholic go pope!

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