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Date: 12/02/13 08:50 AM

90 Responses to Morality And The Christian God – Sam Harris

  1. Profile photo of Mazztek
    Mazztek Male 40-49
    586 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:53 am
    Link: Morality And The Christian God - Sam Harris - Concise and with devastating impact.
  2. Profile photo of Reignblazer
    Reignblazer Male 18-29
    2334 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:08 am
    I don`t know who these people think they`re going to convince with all these debates & speeches. Preaching to the choir and all that.
  3. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:17 am

    "Impotent or Evil"

    3rd option - "Imaginary"
  4. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2372 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:20 am
    Cue the babble thumpers -- three, two, one....
  5. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:30 am
    Oh look more atheist preachin on IAB how different..... "BELIVE IN NOTHING LIKE ME OR YOUR A STUPIDHEAD!!" Can`t see the irony in that....
  6. Profile photo of ElectricEye
    ElectricEye Male 50-59
    2729 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:35 am
    McGovern1981 *believe* & *you`re*
  7. Profile photo of Dragonace
    Dragonace Male 30-39
    296 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:49 am
    No McGovern1981, they`re simply offering a valid framework for their argument. I have yet to see such a thing from the christian community. All I ever see from them is tons of variations on this sort of thing:



    OR posts like yours that just resort to childish name calling and mud slinging.
  8. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:04 am
    1:47 - Michael Jackson?
  9. Profile photo of oobaka
    oobaka Male 40-49
    998 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:05 am
    One of the best videos I`ve seen on here
  10. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:06 am
    04:00 Borat had to be in there somewhere!
    Can`t watch any more, the door is already pushed wide open.
  11. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:17 am
    Reignblazer,

    Since the likes of Dawkins Harris and Hitchens started having their voices heard the choir has grown very significantly.
  12. Profile photo of OverTime
    OverTime Male 40-49
    97 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:23 am
    McGovern1981, your strawman needs more hay.

    Sam Harris is not concerned with your beliefs. He is concerned about the damage caused by false beliefs.
  13. Profile photo of LegosFTW
    LegosFTW Male 18-29
    69 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:25 am
    Alright, heres my theory.
    Humans need to know everything. Its this craving for knowledge thats allowed us to progress to where we stand today, with planes soaring around the world, men in space, etc. When humans dont understand something, or cant explain something, they absolutely MUST find a way to explain it. THAT, is why as a species, we have created Gods. Gods offer "answers" to the questions that we do not have the means of understanding. As our knowledge of how the world works develops, our belief in Gods has and will continue to diminish. People used to believe that God created every creature as it was. We now know that that isn`t necessarily true, thanks to our concept of evolution. The afterlife is another question we cannot answer that has been tied to the idea of God/s. Simply an explanation where none exists to ease the human mind that needs to have answers.
  14. Profile photo of Reignblazer
    Reignblazer Male 18-29
    2334 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:25 am
    @LordJim

    I`m sure many unimportant individuals have gravitated to such thoughts. Don`t see it mattering though. In whatever the endgame might be.
  15. Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:00 am
    The division bell is being rung, everyone to your sides for the last battle.
  16. Profile photo of uunxx
    uunxx Male 30-39
    120 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:05 am
    Shallow and rather pseudointelectual arguments. There`s no other purpose of such videos than to assure fellow atheists how smart they are. I`m atheist myself.
  17. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:08 am
    McGovern1981, your strawman needs more hay.

    Not really many atheists act no beter than fundies different beliefs same smug attitude. There is no way to prove an answer to the Eternal question just a sense of intellectual superiority.

    McGovern1981 *believe* & *you`re*

    Thank you Cpt. spellcheck.

    OR posts like yours that just resort to childish name calling and mud slinging.

    Considering I pointed out you act no beter than the fundy thumpers that wouldn`t be mud slinging that would be pointing out irony. Hit a nerve I see.

    they`re simply offering a valid framework for their argument.

    The questions you`re going after have no answers the only ones who know are dead and you won`t be getting to ask them. There is no framework to it just groups claiming they`re smarter than the other while keeping a closed mind about the subject.
  18. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:10 am
    The truth hurts, that`s why Christians get so pissed off when people point sh*t like this out. They ignore all the horrible sh*t that happens and point to the few good things that happen by chance, or "miracles", as they like to say. There`s nothing funnier than hearing an athlete thank god for helping his team win the championship while there are millions of starving and suffering people dying all over the world as they speak.
  19. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:13 am
    Your beliefs on this matter are like a penis it`s fine to have but you don`t have to go waving it around and trying to shove it down peoples throats.

    This argument is on here all the time and it does not cure boredom or change any ones opinion it just generates arguments and it`s always about Christians cause it`s all you can get away with now.
  20. Profile photo of ultimakewl
    ultimakewl Male 18-29
    833 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:18 am
    i will not read the comments
    i will not read the comments
    i will not read the comments
    i will not get suckered into a flame war about religion
    i will not get suckered into a flame war about religion
    i will not get suckered into a flame war about religion
  21. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:25 am
    "Your beliefs on this matter are like a penis it`s fine to have but you don`t have to go waving it around and trying to shove it down peoples throats."

    Tell that to the a$$holes in gov`t trying to cram their beliefs into our legal system.
  22. Profile photo of OverTime
    OverTime Male 40-49
    97 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:29 am
    Make a comment that McGovern1981 needs more hay and he delivers!

    Let us agree that all people, regardless of beliefs, can be smug. That means it no longer has any bearing on the discussion.

    You can discuss the eternal question if you`d like, but I fail to see how it has anything to do with the aspects we were discussing. Was your response just a pathetic attempt at derailing the topic?

    You have now added "sense of intellectual superiority" to your strawman. I actually feel intellectually inferior because of my beliefs.

    Science is so much more than "God did it!". Yes, I can build strawmen too.
  23. Profile photo of Dragonace
    Dragonace Male 30-39
    296 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:31 am
    @ LegosFTW - I agree completely!!

    "God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance."
    ~ Neil deGrasse Tyson

    @ McGovern1981 - Kinda funny that you used the penis analogy that was originally talking about Christianity. This discussion is about Christians because they`re the ones constantly trying to pass laws in America based on the very flawed book that is being discussed in this video with no regard for other people. People take offense when their personal beliefs are infringed upon (this means both sides Atheists and Theists) its human nature, the difference is Atheists tend to try to use logic and debate the issue like in this video, Christians often times use flawed arguments and bible quotes to try and back up their views. They usually end up sticking their fingers in their ears and going "La La La La La!! I`m right and you`re wrong!! La La La La La!!!"
  24. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2372 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:35 am
    LOL I love it when Xtians claim they`re being picked on.

    It`s YOU LOT who pass ignorant laws against everything from gay rights to buying beer on Sunday, and then you bleat when someone questions the veracity of your Big Book of Fairy Tales.

    Wankers.
  25. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:36 am
    "it`s always about Christians cause it`s all you can get away with now."

    False. The majority of visitors to IAB come from countries where Christianity is the dominant religion, that`s why it`s singled out. Christians aren`t being discriminated against, it`s the other way around. The majority (Christians) discriminate against the minority (atheists) yet try to play the victim, it`s pathetic.
  26. Profile photo of spanerbulb
    spanerbulb Male 30-39
    1244 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:38 am
    Rather intelligent and common sense argument.
  27. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:42 am
    Tell that to the a$$holes in gov`t trying to cram their beliefs into our legal system.

    Plenty do as whole that`s very rarely ever successful.

    while there are millions of starving and suffering people dying all over the world as they speak.

    And how many atheist groups are helping that sort of thing? If say Mother Taresa or the like were alive today would you tell her you know for a fact her beliefs are wrong and what she does is pointless? Perhaps if there is a god the creator of the universe might have some more important things to be doing than keeping a perfect utopia there`s a bizzillon theories.

    Shallow and rather pseudointelectual arguments. There`s no other purpose of such videos than to assure fellow atheists how smart they are. I`m atheist myself.

    At least someone sees it.......
  28. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:43 am
    ` many unimportant individuals`

    As Doctor Who put it; `Nobody important? Blimey, that`s amazing. Do you know, in nine hundred years of time and space I`ve never met anyone who wasn`t important before.`
  29. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2372 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:46 am
    Oh, and Mother Theresa?

    According to recently opened letters written BY HER, she lost her faith a good ten years before her death, but kept going because she didn`t want to let her poor charges down.

    So you can take her off the thumper list.
  30. Profile photo of Simbosan
    Simbosan Male 40-49
    159 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:54 am
    Videos like this are such a waste of time because the only people intellectually equipped to understand it are already atheist/agnostic.

    No religious person has the mental faculties required to take these messages on board, if they did, they wouldn`t be religious in the first place.

    Addicts are born as addicts, they will find some destructive addiction of one form or another and nothing will change that. Religious people must have some gene that predisposes them to a heightened level of credulousness, an ability to self-delude. They won`t change, they can`t, stop wasting your breath
  31. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 11:55 am
    "it`s always about Christians cause it`s all you can get away with now."

    Actually Harris gets a lot of stick because he focuses largely on Islam.

    McGovern,

    Mother Theresa may not have been the best example.
  32. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:00 pm
    And so far no-one has addressed Harris`s points.
  33. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    ` many unimportant individuals`

    As Doctor Who put it; `Nobody important? Blimey, that`s amazing. Do you know, in nine hundred years of time and space I`ve never met anyone who wasn`t important before.`
  34. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    ` many unimportant individuals`

    As Doctor Who put it; “Nobody important? Blimey, that’s amazing. Do you know, in nine hundred years of time and space I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t important before.”
  35. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    @OverTime
    Let`s talk about strawman you just tried to argue that a discussion on Atheist vs. religion has nothing to do with the eternal question....

    @Dragonace

    Kind of funny how you assume I was using that solely for atheists when I applied it for all.

    Funny you use Neil deGrasse Tyson he does not want to be considered an atheist
    “The moment when someone attaches you to a philosophy or a movement,” says Tyson, “then they assign all the baggage, and all the rest of the philosophy that goes with it, to you. And when you want to have a conversation, they will assert that they already know everything important that there is to know about you because of that association. And that’s not the way to have a conversation.”
  36. Profile photo of Denogginizer
    Denogginizer Male 30-39
    821 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:06 pm
    So, if bad things happen, God doesn`t exsist or is evil? What a simplistic, childish view of the situation. If all bad things stopped the instant you accepted Jesus, everyone would line up. People would start following God, not from love, but for the gift baskets. God wants faith, not moochers.
  37. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2372 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    Denogginizer wrote:

    "What a simplistic, childish view of the situation."

    Which sums up religion PERFECTLY.

    And he failed to address the point, adding only that his infantile god wants `faith not moochers.` Which makes no sense whatsoever -- but hey, it`s religion, so I guess making sense isn`t part of the equation.
  38. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    You have now added "sense of intellectual superiority" to your strawman. I actually feel intellectually inferior because of my beliefs.

    Once again you use strawman but superior intellect is the atheist argument for their beliefs. Much like religion does.....

    So you can take her off the thumper list.

    You have me mistaken for a Christian I`m not. Imagine that an Atheist lumping someone into a group who disagrees with them what does that sound like to you?




  39. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2372 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    McGovern, I didn`t say you were a xtian -- I said remove Mother Theresa from the thumper list. I never said you were a part of that list.
  40. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm
    Videos like this are such a waste of time because the only people intellectually equipped to understand it are already atheist/agnostic.

    No religious person has the mental faculties required to take these messages on board, if they did, they wouldn`t be religious in the first place.

    Addicts are born as addicts, they will find some destructive addiction of one form or another and nothing will change that. Religious people must have some gene that predisposes them to a heightened level of credulousness, an ability to self-delude. They won`t change, they can`t, stop wasting your breath

    ^^ See what I`m talking about yet? ^^ You could take that and switch the groups and you`d sound exactly like a fundie.
  41. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:28 pm
    McGovern,

    Mother Theresa may not have been the best example.

    Meh it was an example pick a saint or such and think about the original question.
  42. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    Now I`ll let this sit as posting only feeds the eternal internet argument.
  43. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 12:38 pm
    I`m tired of Sam Harris, I think he`s a very weak moralist and provides no information on religion except "the feels".
  44. Profile photo of OverTime
    OverTime Male 40-49
    97 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:05 pm
    "People are not stupid. They believe things for reasons. The last way for skeptics to get the attention of bright, curious, intelligent people is to belittle or condescend or to show arrogance toward their beliefs." -Carl Sagan

    ^^ See what I`m talking about yet? ^^ Carl Sagan certainly doesn`t seem to feel intellectually superior, but he sure does make me inferior.

    One who feels intellectually superior because of their beliefs, atheist or "fundie", does not validate or invalidate their position. So what does it have to do with the moral shortcomings of the Christian religion? Just trolling?
  45. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:31 pm
    So what does it have to do with the moral shortcomings of the Christian religion? Just trolling?

    Have you kept up with this conversation at all? When you copy my statement with a slightly conflicting quote and statement that invalid nothing I said to what you`re mocking I`d say it`s you who is trolling.
  46. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:44 pm
    We really need to put the myths and fairy tales behind us. Put a stop to the evil that religion is and advance as a society. We need to attack it`s frontal assault on rationalism at every opportunity. It`s the only way we can end it`s tyrannical hold.
  47. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:44 pm

    Poor Mac...everybody picking on him.
  48. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:47 pm
    We really need to put the myths and fairy tales behind us. Put a stop to the evil that religion is and advance as a society. We need to attack it`s frontal assault on rationalism at every opportunity. It`s the only way we can end it`s tyrannical hold.

    So a crusade you say.....
  49. Profile photo of Kain1
    Kain1 Male 18-29
    1473 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 1:50 pm
    44 comments, and a single one actually addressing anything said in the video.. *Sigh*

    @Denogginizer: It`s actually a simple argument.

    1: Suppose God exists.

    2: thousands of otherwise innocent children starve to death every day, and many, if not most, of them are sent to hell because they didn`t grow up in a christian family and therefore never heard of the `right` god.

    conclusion: Either god is powerless to help them (i.e non existent), or else he has the power to help these children, but doesn`t care enough about them to do so. The absolute opposite of morality. (which in my mind would be even worse.)
  50. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:00 pm
    conclusion: Either god is powerless to help them (i.e non existent), or else he has the power to help these children, but doesn`t care enough about them to do so. The absolute opposite of morality. (which in my mind would be even worse.)

    3. Or that those are the just the words of mans take on things ages ago and it could be a bit more complex than that.
  51. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:04 pm
    @patchouly

    I think such a movement requires learned folk that have a religious teaching background. They will tell the people how their educational teaching was justly based on manipulation. Sam Harris is not from that flock.
  52. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 2:45 pm
    Brilliant. There is NO argument against this video. NONE.
  53. Profile photo of Aragnarok
    Aragnarok Male 30-39
    51 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 3:35 pm
    Actually the argument against this video is that it contains nothing but ignorance and subsequently bases its own argument on only very basic surface understanding and an extremely limited perceptual viewpoint. Mainly why isn`t God a magical wish genie so everyone can live in paradise and I can`t comprehend why bad things happen therefore isn`t God powerless or evil? Both truly ignorant viewpoints given the structure of our existence, but then again most people can`t really be faulted for their lack of qualified information. Suffice it to say that there is indeed answers that satisfy every concern in the video although it would take quite a bit of background information to understand it all that can`t be covered in a comment section and most wouldn`t be comfortable in changing their current viewpoint anyway regardless of any hard truths revealed. On the other hand as humans en masse we corrupt and dumb down to the lowest anything we get our hands on whether it is religion or otherwise.
  54. Profile photo of 3002-3038
    3002-3038 Female 18-29
    632 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 4:17 pm
    @Aragnarok It is Ignorant for you to automatically assume, that he has no understanding of what he speaks, is it not?

    You do not know what research he has done, to what ends he has traveled to come to understand the viewpoint he has arrived at.

    In fact I bet you know nothing of this man, but because like most humans, your god complex kicks in and you automatically speak against him IN Ignorance.

  55. Profile photo of ak2nc1
    ak2nc1 Female 18-29
    867 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 4:32 pm
    I chose religion, because it gives men boundaries where they need them. The laws of man are inconsistent, murderous, greedy and filthy. Gay marriage, abortion, prostitution, alcoholism, mass taxation and gambling. All these things are legal in non-religious atmospheres throughout the world, and all of them are doctrines of men. Men are just lazy, sexualized, violent, competitive, coveting, vicious creatures, and without God, people would be having open sex in the streets, sexually abusing children legally, aborting children carelessly, charging for intercourse, stealing your life savings on a bet and then stealing your wife with the consent of the community.... simply because there would be no law against it. God gives us boundaries where our moral convictions fail.
  56. Profile photo of Aragnarok
    Aragnarok Male 30-39
    51 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 4:46 pm
    @3002-3038 Although I will gladly acknowledge I may be ignorant of many things as all of us are, everything he discusses I do indeed know the logical and qualified answers to, in which if he also possessed such answers then he would not be saying the things he did, which logically means he is indeed ignorant of all such things. It doesn`t get much simpler than that. Therefore it is a matter of your own ego that you are upset at my comment. Now most likely you will demand a convenient soundbite or paragraph that explains the entire structure of the universe and the meaning of life from me to order to prove to yourself that I know what I am talking about. It will not be forthcoming because if you had sufficient wisdom I could explain it all to you in two words and you would simply smile and nod your head, but more likely I would have to spend a lifetime and give you a library of information to understand and who has that kind of time? Again there are answers but not everyone is ready
  57. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 5:25 pm

    Aragnarok, I think the point he was making was that there isn`t much point in worshipping a deity that doesn`t interact with you. One that`s not involved in the worshippers life. Christians get the same cancers and have the same death rate and cure rate as anyone else. They die in car crashes with the same statistical frequency. They get good grades and fail classes just like the rest of us. "God" doesn`t seen to do a darn thing for them despite the adoration and tithes.

    I know Christians will say they feel Him in their hearts. Well goody for you. God won`t cure your cancer but he`ll make you feel good about it. That`s helpful.
  58. Profile photo of 3002-3038
    3002-3038 Female 18-29
    632 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 5:50 pm
    You`re just giving a cop out, nothing more.

    You understand what god is and why he/she/it works in the way he/she/it does?

    Bullpoo, you THINK you understand you BELIEVE you know.

    But instead of even trying to give some form of reason to your argument, you simply say you know better, and that your reasoning wouldn`t be possible to be explained in the comments section.
    You`re like a pigeon.
  59. Profile photo of Aragnarok
    Aragnarok Male 30-39
    51 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 6:32 pm
    @Gerry The main point he goes on about is seemingly the "problem of evil" and how God isn`t a magic wish genie, all of which such arguments are show a true lack of understanding of the who, what, where, why, when and how of exactly how everything is structured and fits together both physically and spiritually. Without such building blocks of wisdom to piece it all together then this is usually the resulting logic and as we know logic is not a static thing but changes proportionately to the amount of qualified information available. I will most definitely agree however that worship is a waste of time and there are no get out of jail free cards involved just because you adhere to a particular belief. That is not at all what we are here for. Religion often gets in the way of spirituality and the whole worship thing is more of a control method introduced by man and those wishing to have power here. As I noted when it all gets into the hands of the masses it becomes corrupted and
  60. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 6:41 pm
    Grapsing as usual. Prejudiced and biased to the extreme. It`s really a shame he puts so much effort into it. It`s one thing to see the side of the coin that there is no God, but it`s a completely different thing to see the other side, where there is. Then you`ll see... there is no coin. God is, and that`s why faith in God will never end...
  61. Profile photo of Aragnarok
    Aragnarok Male 30-39
    51 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 6:50 pm
    @3002-3038 Your belief does not change the facts and it is not about my ego, only the information involved. Of which again is available to those qualified and willing to put in the necessary effort and experience. However if you are ruled by ego and angry that you may not get nice, simple, pre-packaged "back of the book" answers then what would be the point of spending such an amount of time and energy into someone that in reality could care less because they are comfortable in their own perceived viewpoint? You have freedom of choice to do so and no one can force you to be otherwise. So be it. It is not critical that you have the same information myself or others do, you can only be you. We all of have freedom of choice to actually pursue these answers or not, to learn or to stagnate, to go what is past comfortable to see or understand something new or stay where we are, sometime to even digress. Whatever the case we are all at our own level of consciousness and our tenacit
  62. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 7:18 pm
    There are a few interesting points in the video, none that are not rare questions to the Church, however.

    1) What about the children who die before hearing about God?
    2) Why would a merciful God allow people to go to hell for believing in false Gods?
    3) Why do Christians believe in Hell and not Valinor?
    4) Why do bad things happen to good people?
    5) How is it morally just that a murderer who accepts Christ can go to heaven, while a Muslim who spends his life serving the needy goes to hell?

    The first point is simple - God knows us before we are born, He knows us in the womb and He knows our end before the beginning. Sins are already forgiven, and God knows if the child would accept Christ or not.

    As for the second - all Sin is equal in the eyes of God, and all Sin is forgiven. What matters is the acceptance of Christ - and what matters is not what you say but what you feel. There is nobody without Sin, so this argument is invalid.
  63. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 7:27 pm
    The Forgiveness of Sin is not just for Christians, it is for the world - all you need to do is accept that you are forgiven for your Sin.

    As for the third point, the elves do go to Valinor, obviously.

    The fourth point, I`ll let Lee Strobel answer that.

    And the fifth point. *sigh* This is one that I used to struggle with because it didn`t seem fair. Here it is.

    All Sin is equal. Homosexuality, eating pork, working on Saturday, murder, lying, and adultery. Christ said that in order to be guilty of murder, all you have to do is hate someone - and you have already murdered them in your own heart.

    We are a fallen creation in a fallen world, and we are all Sinners. We are all deserving of Hell, but we are all Forgiven. (Yes, even you, Smag.) All we have to do for this forgivenes
  64. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14652 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:01 pm
    Christians ARE psychotic, psychopathic and ignorant if they are true believers. If they are fakers then they are habitual liars.

    We should neither hire one nor elect Christians, nor permit them positions of responsibility.
  65. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:07 pm
    You are entitled to your belief.
  66. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36829 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    Okay, so God knows everything that has and everything that will happen.
    God created us knowing the vast majority would fail.
    So God created us for the sole purpose of damning us to hell.

    And this all makes sense to people? Go figure.
  67. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33080 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:34 pm
    Listening to Atheists blather on about "what God thinks" is like listening to a "channeller" (psychic) talk about what "Aliens From Jupiter" think...

    Neither has a clue...

    Become a Deist! Like me! I don`t know OR CARE what God thinks! If I meet Him after I`m dead? He`s going to have a LOT of explaining to do!!

    All this speculation on God`s methods, motivations OR `morality` is utterly pointless...
  68. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 8:42 pm
    Sam Harris’s speech in this video is a (slightly edited) argument from a larger debate. You can watch the whole debate at the link below. The rebuttal to this point begins at 1:10:25. Spoiler: Harris’s emotionally poignant speech is mostly dismissed as a red herring.

    I generally find that debates like this one generate more heat than light. Theists assert, "I believe in premise A, so I conclude B and C." Atheists assert, "I believe in premise ~A, so I conclude ~B and ~C." What I would really like to see is two debaters first agree on a set of premises, then build up from there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg7p1BjP2dA
  69. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:06 pm
    Draculya: "Christians ARE psychotic, psychopathic and ignorant if they are true believers. If they are fakers then they are habitual liars."

    That sentence is so vile and hate filled you should be banned from IAB.
  70. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:32 pm
    @Gerry1of1
    Well, the Blood of Christ washes away all Sin - so we are not all damned to hell. Just deserving of it.

    While I believe this to be true, I do not think any less of you for not believing it.
  71. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 9:36 pm
    @CrackrJak
    Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and we cannot expect to be able to voice ours unless we allow others to express theirs.
  72. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:16 pm
    These are simple questions I had when I was 10. We don`t know what God is thinking, Harris presumes it. Why do people suffer? We haven`t seen the final chapter. It`s like the sorrow for that moment of a guy who missed his flight, and all you think is "poor guy", but you haven`t seen that later because of that he met the love of his life. Or you`re ecstatic you got your boarding pass, but that plane his headed to crash. All we are seeing now is the sorrowful part in some lives, the joy in others... not the whole picture. The only question you should ask yourself is: Do you cause pain or suffering in others? Or a source of relief and joy?

    We don`t know who is going to heaven or hell, no one does. So all associated points are moot. Maybe more Hindus, Muslims and atheists go to heaven than Christians. Labels we give ourselves are meaningless. And all Harris is doing is presuming God uses these labels we`ve assigned ourselves. That`s like me calling myself a
  73. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:38 pm
    Cont... a doctor and thinking God must think that too. Which is ridiculous. We give ourselves lots of labels and shells, but they`ll all be pealed away and God will show us what we really are about. It will be evidenced in our lives we led.

    So lets say a Christian priest who raped boys, a Muslim who blew himself up killing innocents, and a Hindu who burned his wife are told to scram by God. And there are 10 others from each who have done abundant good are brought before you and you`re told they in fact that did what God had in mind. What will you say then? Don`t presume about God. Don`t presume the fate of others.

    Why make a presumption about someone and the curse him? What if the person you know or loved asked if you`d fall in love all over again with them if you met them in a chaotically busy, foreign and confusing land, if you truly loved someone your answer would be yes (I hope). Then what if you actually got to try it out and see. That`s what life
  74. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    December 2, 2013 at 10:45 pm
    Cont... That`s what life is. Imagine the dismay in whomever you can make that promise to finds out you would actually curse them and disown them when taken out of your element and current context. Take small steps. Think things through and the pieces come together. THINK for yourself.
  75. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 12:04 am
    "Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."
    --Robert Heinlein
  76. Profile photo of Linkenberger
    Linkenberger Male 18-29
    1164 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 5:21 am
    My favorite parts of these posts is briefly looking at the ENGORGED comments section, before chuckling and saying "NOPE" before hitting the back button.
  77. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 5:36 am
    Christians ARE psychotic, psychopathic and ignorant if they are true believers. If they are fakers then they are habitual liars.

    We should neither hire one nor elect Christians, nor permit them positions of responsibility

    You don`t sound any beter yourself there which is exactly what I was talking about.
  78. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33080 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 8:45 am
    We should neither hire one nor elect Christians, nor permit them positions of responsibility.

    @Draculya: How very "liberal" of you! Make them wear crosses on their sleeves? Put them into "re-education camps" next, yes? Very Liberal!
  79. Profile photo of LordJim
    LordJim Male 60-69
    7046 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 9:31 am
    Oy, Draculya,

    What did you just call my granny?
  80. Profile photo of Dragonace
    Dragonace Male 30-39
    296 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 10:06 am
    I think the consensus here is that no elected official, regardless of their faith, should use their religious beliefs when enacting laws for the general public, since America is a melting pot of religions and beliefs. What SHOULD be used is logic, critical thinking, and compassion.

    While I DO think all world religions serve a purpose in the lives of those who believe in them, they should not be used as a tool or excuse to enforce personal views onto the public. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and should not have those beliefs encroached upon by unfair laws based on someone else`s religious views.
  81. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 10:51 am
    @Dragonace

    I do not think it is at all possible to divorce legislature from religious beliefs/morals. Everything stems from our belief in right and wrong, regardless to if that comes from a Religious or Humanist view.

    Speed limits come from our belief that the safety of others on the road are more important than our arrival at our destination in an early or on time manner.

    Of course we should bring our faith and morals to the table when we discuss policy and law, but we should think about if these laws unfairly place a burden on those who do not share our beliefs.

    The only way we can be a melting pot is if we accept all together, and not say "Your belief is not allowed here". If we segregate believers from non-believers, belief from non-belief, all we do is guarantee a "dinner salad" rather than a "melting pot".

  82. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 12:34 pm
    JadesDitoyr: Expressing one`s beliefs is one thing. Making hate filled vile commentary toward another`s race, creed, religion, color or national origin is quite another and the SCOTUS has ruled that such "Hate Speech" is not protected under the 1st Amendment.
  83. Profile photo of Dragonace
    Dragonace Male 30-39
    296 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 12:52 pm
    True morality exists without the need for religion, to say that they are inseparable is just silly. Religion has little to no bearing on true human morality, if it did then the percentage of the current prison population that are god-fearing Christians would not be as high as it is (75%).

    There is no need to bring religious dogma to a political forum. Period. I`m not saying religion should be ignored, I`m saying that when it comes to religious principals, people get very passionate and all it does it cause conflict and misery(this thread is a good example). Leave the religious dogma at home and use basic moral principals and logical thinking to solve problems and pass laws.
  84. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 1:22 pm
    @CrackrJak
    Yes, but I wasn`t talking about a constitutional right - just the conceit made by participating in a venue such as this.

    @Dragonace
    I think that the most passionate outcries in this forum have been coming from the anti-Religion stance, and we cannot blame Religion for it.
  85. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    December 3, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    I love how willing xians are to ignore specific scriptures while clinging like barnacles to others. If you believe, as good xians do, in John 3:16, then the argument in this video is irrefutable. If, however, you want to selectively believe and follow the verses you want, like loving on Leviticus and other anti-gay verses while turning your back on John, that`s fine. It`s not surprising.
  86. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33080 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 10:35 am
    @SmagBoy1: See? That is a VALID argument and/or criticism! You do make them, I do acknowledge them! It is indeed frustrating when "religious types" are so selective in their literal interpretations.

    Ugh, a day late: you`ll probably never see this and continue to think ill of me... :-/ Alas!

  87. Profile photo of hamptoninn
    hamptoninn Male 30-39
    57 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 9:38 pm
    No, SmagBoy1`s post is not really a valid criticism. There is nothing about John 3:16 that makes Sam Harris`s comments "irrefutable". I`m not exactly sure what SmagBoy1 thinks John 3:16 says, but John 3:16 does not say "God does not allow painful things to happen to people." Read it in context.

    God loves the world; so he sent a savior for those who would believe in the Son (16). Jesus did not come to condemn us (17) because humans are already condemned (18). Most people prefer darkness to light (19-20), but those who want forgiveness are willing to come into the light (21).
    The passage describes a contrast between believers and non-believers and their legal status before God. If you are frustrated with Christians who take Bible verses out of context, do not celebrate critics who take Bible verses out of context.
  88. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14652 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 11:44 pm
    "How very "liberal" of you! Make them wear crosses on their sleeves? Put them into "re-education camps" next, yes? Very Liberal!"

    I don`t think I identify with a liberal tag. I just say what sounds right to me.

    No crosses on sleeves; this is not a race thing. It`s a religious thing.

    Maybe we should classify religion under The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).
  89. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14652 posts
    December 4, 2013 at 11:46 pm
    @CrakrJak It`s my statement of belief.
  90. Profile photo of Xprez
    Xprez Male 30-39
    676 posts
    December 5, 2013 at 9:27 pm
    I love the cliche attacks on Christians, all the while thinking that your attack on a supposed view of the world, is somehow morally justified and less reprehensible.
    Maybe the overall message of the Bible is meant to be taken figuratively, not literally.
    Of course this is the "gimme generation" therefore if it requires work, it is an "abomination".

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