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Date: 12/17/13 05:41 PM

207 Responses to Minimum Wage Argument [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 5:42 pm
    Link: Minimum Wage Argument - An Accurate Depiction
  2. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:09 pm
    And, by `Accurate`, you mean Total BS.
  3. Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:10 pm
    hahaha and people still blame the poor
  4. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:12 pm
    No
  5. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:39 pm
    @ MeGrendel: No, by "Accurate," he means accurate.
  6. Profile photo of gladhatter
    gladhatter Male 50-59
    219 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:43 pm
    Just more bull pooh. What a pant-load!
  7. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    megrendal - why is is BS? dont you see the irony in the rich complaining about about "entitlements" for the poor when they receive so much help from the government by the way of tax breaks and loopholes designed just for them? the only difference is that the poor receive to survive and the rich receive to prosper. all while making the country get further into debt and widening the gap in income equality.
  8. Profile photo of Twinklestein
    Twinklestein Male 30-39
    513 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 6:57 pm
    Most of the people I hear saying the minimum wage increase is a bad thing are making just slightly more than what the increase would be. Which is fair because they would be the hardest hit.
  9. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:15 pm
    twinkle - but wouldnt the increase be added to everyone just like the cost of living increase we received?
  10. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:24 pm
    See, more emotion. They keep deflecting from the Economics-based arguments for it. Once again, you can`t pay a fast food worker 15 dollars an hour. They will fire half of them, a machine will take your order. A machine will make almost the entire burger. It`s not rocket science.

    Jops, yes, the government is stupid. The government is making those rules, that`s on them. By the way, many of those deductions are for things like Green energy. Everyone had a hernia when GE paid no taxes recently. GE makes solar panels and many Green energy things. That`s how. You guys push forward these things and complain when they reap the benefit. Oil companies also get breaks for developing alternative energy.

    But not everyone with a business is rich, so stop with that argument.

    The primary culprit of current income inequality is Quantitative Easing and ZIRP. 85 billion a month to the rich. That`s on you, the Keynesians.
  11. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:25 pm
    Since LBJ`s Great Society in the 60s, you guys have spent over 16 trillion on government social programs to fight poverty. Poverty stopped declining shortly after the Great Society and the Keynesian policies that came with it.

    That government money did not trickle down. Your trickle down Keynesianism doesn`t work.
  12. Profile photo of Zed68
    Zed68 Male 40-49
    1015 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:26 pm
    Communists !!!
  13. Profile photo of ajd121
    ajd121 Male 18-29
    625 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:36 pm
    Couldn`t that also be said by people who are unemployed or have been laid off due to the minimum wage hikes.
  14. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 7:54 pm
    Let`s say I`m a 23 year old who can`t find a job because the youth unemployment rate is 50% for my age group - imagine a Spain-like situation.

    Well, because the minimum wage is $15, new opportunities are few and far-between. Many of them will be snatched up by people with connections, people who know people.

    So what can I do? In a free society, I would be able to price my labor not at $15 dollars, but at $10. If all positions were priced at a minimum $10 instead of $15, there would be more available. But maybe not enough. So I would lower the price of my labor to $8, if that doesn`t work, $6. At that level, the price of my labor will probably equal the amount of value I bring and I will be hired. I will be able to prove myself - potentially for later increases.

    But this can`t happen. It is against the law to sell your labor at $6/hr. Even for a 23 year old who can live reasonably well on it as a starter wage.
  15. Profile photo of RytWing
    RytWing Male 30-39
    316 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 8:15 pm
    This is an argument made by deceitful politicians looking for an easy vote. Of course it sounds good to a minimum wage worker. They are the uninformed voter.
    The deceitful preying on the ignorant with no thought for the actual implications of such actions.
  16. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1128 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 8:21 pm
    @Andrew the flaw in that is students/youth will hold all the jobs because they are dependents thus able to work for less, while the age of majority who families depend on their wages have no additional value for higher pay. Lets not even start on how it affects the income/tuition ratio. Someone has to get their hands dirty ...the absolute hardest and dirtiest jobs I know pay absolute crap.
  17. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:09 pm
    andrew -
    business are not stupid. you claim that robots will take over but why dont they just do that now? is it not cost effective? they would easily make their money back within 2 years. no, its because no mater how slow or stupid they might be, people want to talk to other people. they want someone to take their order and they want someone to complain to when they get it wrong.yes raising min wage would get rid of a few jobs but supply and demand would dictate just how many they need to stay afloat and guess what, they already use this to make sure they maximize profits. thats why they screw over their workers by not offering full time status and hire at min wage. whats next. prices will go up? when have they not? and if they dont sizes go down. people will only pay so much for a crappy burger so they are screwed there as well. face it, min wage needs to go up. they are no where near where they need to be in contrast to inflation but you should already know this.
  18. Profile photo of WhoSaidWhat
    WhoSaidWhat Male 30-39
    320 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:12 pm
    There`s also another way to look at it. If minimum wage is raised, the price of goods and services will also go up. As an example:

    You work for a local refinery, which supplies fuel to the surrounding areas. You, along with several other workers, are working for minimum wage. (Not realistic, I know, but work with me here.) Minimum wage is raised. In order to make payroll, the refinery has to raise their prices for fuel. The farm down the road has to raise their prices for produce, because they have to pay their workers more, and pay more for fuel to deliver their produce. You now have to pay more for groceries, as well as for fuel to get back and forth to work and to the store to buy the higher priced produce. You`re right back where you started.

    That is, of course, really simplified and unrealistic, but (should) gets the point across.
  19. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:21 pm
    also, you want people off of welfare? then raise min wage and then they might make enough to not qualify. you want them to get off food stamps? allow them to make enough to PAY for food. you think that inflation would just go up to make the matter moot? then actually be against things that raise it like trust fund loophole that take billions out of the tax system. next time think before you "know" the answer. people are getting screwed everyday. they are the ones that are forced into low paying jobs because people like you believe just because its easy does not mean they dont deserve a living wage. guess what, just because its easy does not mean it labor free. they work harder than most people can believe. they are on their feet all day dealing with the most irate people out there for next to nothing. they have to, not because they have no talent, because there no no real jobs left. those days are long gone. wake up and smell the desolation of todays workforce.
  20. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
    supply and demand. this alone will dictate prices. prices will only go up if demand goes up. do you really think that if mcdonalds is forced to pay $15 that their burgers would go from $1 to $5? who would pay? would you? no. they have already figured out what they can sell for and this wont change. yes, some things will go up but when dont they? the only thing hurting inflation is the rich. since they possess over 25% of all wealth and they constantly bypass our tax code money has no where to go but up. with more money needed to be put into the system to make up for the difference this raises inflation and makes our money worth less. this is the reason we are all hurting right now.
  21. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:35 pm
    You stumbled on the answer correctly, businesses have calculated that $7.25 is a wage at which all the machines are not quite justified.

    However - the machines are already taking over at that wage. There aren`t many cashiers at my supermarket, they are automated. One person supervises 8 check out stations. ATMs are another example.

    People would prefer to talk to another person, and certainly some business would elect to invest more in human labor, especially if it were cheap. Chick Fil-A does this, their workers act like waiters at times. But for fast food restaurant like McDonalds, people would PREFER more machines.

    And it will happen, it already has been happening at a $7.25. Imagine $15.

    Raising the minimum wage to $15 will not take people off of welfare. The real minimum wage is $0, which is what some people will be making because of it, and they will certainly be on welfare.
  22. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:39 pm
    Look, you can`t force businesses to be generous, as noble as it is. Every argument I`m making ASSUMES they are greedy. If they are greedy and want a 5% profit, they are not going to take the money for the minimum wage hike from their "money bags". They will raise their prices, they will fire people, they will replace them with machines. And mind you, raising prices in all business negates the effect of the minimum wage. They have a number of solutions for it. And if we assume they truly are greedy, they will easy not have to take it from their "money bags".

    Plus, a small business won`t be able to pay the 16 year old down the street $15/hr. His labor isn`t worth that.
  23. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:40 pm
    what we need is someone with no ties to the mega rich to pass some laws. right now all we have are rich people helping rich people keep more money, all while telling us that the poor are to blame.
  24. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:40 pm
    jops360-"it not cost effective?"

    For the most part, untrained labor at the current minimum wage is cheaper and more versatile.

    BUT, raise labor costs, and will not be cheaper.

    jops360-"face it, min wage needs to go up"

    Sorry, that is an incorrect statement. Minimumm wage is set as training wheels. What you pay untrained workers to learn work skills (some of which never learn).

    Raise the minimum wage to $15 and two things happen:
    1) A percent of the jobs are eliminated to help cover the increased cost of labor.
    2) The ones currently working the remaining jobs will be displaced by more able and harder workers who are willing to work at even Walmart for $15 an hour.

    Conclusion: 90+% of the workers corrently in minimum wage jobs would be unemployed. Net result will be MORE people on welfare.
  25. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 9:51 pm
    andrew-
    they dont run those 8 isles because they cant hire. they do that to keep you in the store longer. they want you there to spend money and they tempt you even at the register while waiting.
    also did you really read my post? people hate talking to machines. do you like automatic phone service? do you no try to talk to a real person? now imagine that at mcdonalds. lines would be down the block due to computer error or people not using the right dialect. business would slow to a halt and then they would be forced to hire just to stay in business. there will always be poo jobs. just now they will get payed better. anyways im more inclined to make them hire at full time compared to part time. this way we dont get screwed with the whole insurance/retirement side of the problem.
  26. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36850 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 10:31 pm

    Why is a minimum wage bad? There was a time when there were very poor and very rich with little in between. The Minimum Wage created a middle class. Capable of buying goods and stimulating an economy.

    If you {likely} are middle class you owe your station in life to the minimum wage. If you`re in favor of getting rid of it, you better be happy existing on $2 a week wage.

    No, I don`t want it to make anyone rich. It`s a starting point, not a career-level-pay. But it hasn`t been raised in a long time but the cost of eating has increased.
  27. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1128 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 10:38 pm
    Lack of wage adjustments = Walmart wins everything.
  28. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 10:54 pm
    No, the Middle Class was not created by the minimum wage. It was created by simple commerce and a free society negotiating labor costs. Living standards, not factoring in technological advances, increased faster from 1865 to the 1920s than any time since - without labor price controls.

    The first minimum wage was enacted in 1933. This certainly prolonged the employment crisis.

    In this survey of Economists, 75% indicated that it increased unemployment among the unskilled and the young.

    Germany didn`t have a real minimum wage until this past election they had. The key to economic prosperity is not labor price controls.
  29. Profile photo of Twinklestein
    Twinklestein Male 30-39
    513 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 10:58 pm
    There is an overall problem with raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. No, McDonalds won`t raise their $1 burger to $5. They will raise it to $1.50. Then a month or so to $1.75. It will go up slowly without a general outcry because we are like a frog in a frying pan. Drop it in when the pan is hot and it jumps out. Put it in and slowly raise the temperature and it will fry without having a clue. The perceived necessity of raising the minimum wage is a direct result of prices going up due to inflation and other economic factors. (gas prices, anyone?)
    Also, does anyone here honestly think that if the minimum wage nearly doubles overnight think that everyone making minimum wage will all have their jobs the next day? Not a chance. And those of us making more than the new minimum, there is zero percent chance of most businesses giving us any kind of pay increase to compensate. People making only a bit more than $15 an hour will be very screwed in this situation.
  30. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 11:02 pm
    You see, it`s of the utmost importance for an economic recovery for wages to fall. In an ideal world, before Keynesianism, prices would fall too. This is called deflation, and it wasn`t inherently bad until it became a boogeyman. Now 2% yearly inflation is mandatory - and they claim that doesn`t affect the poor.

    But this is what is key, and this is why 1933 was the worst year one could implement labor price controls.

    If wages fall, unemployment falls. Once unemployment is healthy, there is no longer an excess supply of unskilled labor. They can then negotiate higher salaries. The economy resets itself naturally.

    So, the way you get higher wages is more jobs, not labor price controls. There is simply too much unskilled labor out there. This is why Walmart in booming North Dakota is paying many $15-18/hr who could be making minimum elsewhere. They lack unskilled labor. They have no employment crisis.
  31. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7611 posts
    December 17, 2013 at 11:15 pm
    Nowt wrong with a living wage. Pure corporate greed paying absolute minimum for so many jobs. Our current economic system does not work anyway- so lets find something that does actually work.
  32. Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2382 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:08 am
    Tell`em Andrew! A minimum wage discourages excellence and punishes the middle class. The middle class is made up of people who were lower class who moved up, not upper class who moved down. Raising the pay scale for the entry level unfairly diminishes the spending power of the middle class thereby reducing the benefits of their hard work to get to the middle class. The upper class will gladly have the majority squeezed by the inflationary practices of the government which further differentiates them from the "riff raff."
  33. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 3:44 am
    megrendal -
    "Minimumm wage is set as training wheels. What you pay untrained workers to learn work skills (some of which never learn)."
    maby 20 years ago. today its the standard. there are plenty of trained people that are stuck making this amount because their job found out that there is no where else for them to go. so you are claiming that 90% of the job force would just be fired? are you that stupid? with that sort of raise it might be close to 15% and thats just due to small businesses. really my ideal would be to set min wage alongside the poverty line. that way if you do have a job you could not receive government aid. but then that would make it a LIVABLE wage and god forbid that, right?

  34. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 3:51 am
    I`m suffering minimum wage argument fatiguefluenza
    Next>
  35. Profile photo of som-tam
    som-tam Male 18-29
    714 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 4:28 am
    surely if a company`s overheads in crease then the price of the service or product increases, thus, negating any wage increase with a matching rise in living costs.
  36. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 4:32 am
    All these minimum wage hikes and ten trillion + spent on programs for the poor and the problem still exists. Anybody with half a brain has already figured out that throwing money at this problem doesn`t fix it.

    There`s a good portion of the US population who will live hand to mouth. Doesn`t matter how much money they have. They will waste it on crap and then wake up broke and looking for a hand-out. I`m thinking pro athletes and lottery winners as the worst offenders.
  37. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 4:34 am
    This is stupid.

    Raising the minimum wage will not make his pile smaller, or the other guy`s pile bigger.

    They both stay the same, higher on the chart.

    Costs would rise in comparison as well.
  38. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 5:13 am
    @Andrew155

    "Even for a 23 year old who can live reasonably well on it as a starter wage."

    How? Rent is no cheaper when you`re 23 than when you`re 30.

    The only way a 23 year old (childless) person is going to live cheaper than an older (childless) person is by living under their parents` roof, effectively being subsidised.

    I don`t think it`s a good idea for people with free/subsidised accomodation to be able to undercut those who have to pay for their accomodation.
  39. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 5:15 am
    @MeGrendel

    "A percent of the jobs are eliminated to help cover the increased cost of labor."

    How? If the business could cut those jobs without harming the functioning of their business, they would have cut them already.
  40. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 5:23 am
    I`m confused by this notion that jobs are lost when minimum wage goes up. What business hires two people when one will do because the wages are cheap?

    What business fires a worker that they need because the wages go up?

    "Well gee, I need a man to do this job...without him, my business cannot function at all...but I`m gonna have to fire him because he`ll cost $15 an hour instead of $10 an hour...damn and blast."

    I mean...come on. How does it even make sense?

    Raise prices, yes.
    Cut costs elsewhere, yes.
    Fire unnecessary workers, yes (but what business hasn`t done that anyway?)
    Fire necessary workers...I don`t think so.
  41. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 5:59 am
    The only gap you tighten up by raising the min wage is between people who hold a skill and those who chose to do nothing with their lives. The 1% remains untouched and all you do is encourage no effort.
  42. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:09 am
    @Musuko42 Many ways. Example 1, you are a factory owner. It costs you £8 an hour to have a employee do it. To buy a machine to do it, then maintain it you pay a lot. Split this cost over the machines lifetime(before it naturally degrades) cost`s £10 an hour. Raising minimum wage to £12 you make the machine the cheaper option.

    Example 2 - A supermarket by`s a product from a local producer. It adding additional minimum wage costs you add £2 to the price. To pay additional shipping to get it from China would cost £1. You switch suppliers, there is no demand for the local producer any more so the jobs cease to exist. (international competition is the real suppressor of wages in industry and it`s so blatantly obvious for anyone who looks into the real facts)
  43. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:12 am
    According to 2011 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS), the average hourly wage of a garbage man in the United States was $16.55. Now tell me do you think people will stick around handling your crap when they can get a job screwing up your order and handing you the incorrect change back for almost the same amount? See any issues with this I`m entitled thought process yet?
  44. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:13 am
    Example 3 - You own a shop, minimum wage is £10. Over a 10 hour night shift you sell £105. You keep this shift as it serves customers and gives someo one a job. Raise it to £11, it now cost`s you £110 a night you make a £5 loss. Your busier trade during the day allows you to absorb the additional cost their, but you have to drop the night worker.


    These are all potential situations as a lot of companies run on small margins. Even big companies have tiny margins that just add up. Adding the cost for one worker may be small but it adds up. Then it can make things unprofitable and the company to survive will be the one who either raises the cost least. Or they just go out of business.
  45. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:37 am
    Musuko....I don`t think it`s a good idea for people with free/subsidised accomodation to be able to undercut those who have to pay for their accomodation.

    You know that`s a pretty scary thing you just said. Add to that the fact that I doubt you could explain why its a scary thing ...well that makes it even more scary.
  46. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:41 am
    I love how some of you will defend it. It`s simple. Instead of a corporation making a billion in profits, have it make a million in profits and pay their workers fairly.

    You seem to think that a minimum wage job is starting job but the reality is, it`s all that`s available these days. Minimum wage, part time jobs.

    The worst part is, like in the cartoon, the greedy bastards at the top, sitting on piles of cash, complaining that the guys at the bottom who can`t feed their kids, are greedy for wanting better pay.
  47. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:44 am
    The big mistake you are making is that the people who are hoarding the cash would have to charge more to compensate the higher wages. Here`s an idea. Make less money, you greedy bastards! Pay your employees properly. You can still sit on a pile of cash and own yachts and mansions, just make sure you pay your employees first.
  48. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:48 am
    Am I late?

    I noticed how it`s the "poor" people who blame the "rich" people for making them "poor" while also looking to other "rich" people in government to make them less "poor."

    Let me know how that works out for you.
  49. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:50 am
    jops360-"do you like automatic phone service? do you no try to talk to a real person?"

    It depends. In some things I prefer a real person. In some a real person is a hindrance.

    Talking to the IRS, give me a person.

    BUT, when I order pizza from Dominos, I`ve found it`s easier to use their phone ap. I don`t have to shout over the phone to make myself understood over the kitch noise and hope the person, who may or may not be interested in his job, get it right.

    Every order via phone app has been 100% correct, EVERY time. They figure 30% of t her sales in the US uses their app. That`s 1/3rd of the customers that don`t need human interaction.

    If it can be done by phone app, that person behind the counter can be replaced by a touchscreen.
  50. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:51 am
    jops360-"maby 20 years ago"

    Still true today. If you`re 40 and working for minimum wage the problem is you, not the system.

    jops360-" so you are claiming that 90% of the job force would just be fired"

    Well, seeing as your logic and reasoning ability sucks, it`s no wonder that your reading comprehension suck. Please TRY to re-read what I said. I said `90+% of those NOW EMPLOYED in minimum wage jobs would be displaced.` Working at Walmart is easy.

    Say a guy makes $15 an hour NOW digging ditches. He`s willing to do the hard work for good money. NOW offer him the SAME pay for doing an far easier jobs, say Walmart, inside out of the weather.

    Which do you think he`ll choose? (And I can gurantee you the majority of those working at walmart now wouldn`t have the skills or the urge to take the ditch-digging job).
  51. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:51 am
    @patchouly

    Make less money, you greedy bastards!
    I noticed how you didn`t offer a method to accomplish this.
  52. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:57 am
    I love how some of you will defend it.

    Like you with the opposite with no actual supporting argument.

    Instead of a corporation making a billion in profits, have it make a million in profits and pay their workers fairly.


    No they just raise prices or outsource putting the unskilled morons at about the same pay level as the middle class that holds a skill thereby screwing us all.

    complaining that the guys at the bottom who can`t feed their kids, are greedy for wanting better pay.


    Welfare queens shouldn`t pop out kids they can`t support because they are too stupid to learn a skill. They call that life.
  53. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:58 am
    patchouly-"The big mistake you are making is that the people who are hoarding the cash"

    The mistake you are making is you actually think they`re hoarding cash and swimming around in it like Scrooge McDuck.

    patchouly-"have it make a million in profits and pay their workers fairly."

    The do pay them fairly. It`s not up to you to decide what they are `allowed` to profit.

    patchouly-"guys at the bottom who can`t feed their kids"

    Is that the company`s problem? The agreement between a worker and a company is just between them. The worker`s family (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with it.

    I`ve never had a job where, upon interviewing, they asked `do you have a family to support?`.

    That`s like saying that if two people work the same job, but one has a family and one does not, that the `family man` should automatically make more.
  54. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 6:58 am

    Obviously $15 is silly, but it has been a long time since it went up. I don`t think a 1 dollar increase will force Burger King to close shop.
  55. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:03 am
    That`s like saying that if two people work the same job, but one has a family and one does not, that the `family man` should automatically make more.

    They call that welfare and it`s one of the reasons it`s completely broken.
  56. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:14 am
    McGovern1981
    "Welfare queens shouldn`t pop out kids they can`t support because they are too stupid to learn a skill. They call that life."
    -----

    And that, in a nutshell, is what is wrong with the Conservative`s view.

    My family is not a "Welfare Queen", yet we make just enough to scratch by. I was a valedictorian at my high school, learned to build and program computers (and later on learned how to program and repair a robot arm), yet we often have to eat boxed macaroni for dinner because there isn`t enough money for real food. We have enough credit card debt to sink a ship and have cut back everything we could (the only reason I have internet is because I make money with it).

    There just aren`t any jobs out there. The unemployment numbers don`t mean anything because you have people like me, working part time minimum wage jobs. We take what we can get, but the pickings are slim.
  57. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:17 am
    ...Cont.

    I work, sometimes as much as 12 hours a day. My wife works full time but just slightly above minimum wage. Rents are high. We will never own a home, never save money for a vacation, never retire. How is it fair that people like us get thrown under society`s bus?
  58. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:21 am
    patchouly-"I was a valedictorian at my high school"

    Congrats...in the real world that`s right up with being the High School Quarterback...in the real world it means jack squat.

    patchouly-"There just aren`t any jobs out there."

    Well, if there are no jobs building and programming computers and robot arms, then change specialties. I mean, a VALADICTORIAN should be smart enough to find out what`s in demand and apply themselves...

    I started out in graphic design, the OLD way where you did color seperations by hand and hand-drew everything. Bottom fell out of that around 1990. So I went into chemistry, started working in a wet lab. Worked my way up to Research Chemist before changing carreers again.

    If you`re just sitting there moaning about the lack of jobs working on robot arms.....
  59. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:24 am
    @MeGrendel
    Great idea! So, will you pay my rent and feed my kid while I go back to school?
  60. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:25 am
    patchouly-"sometimes as much as 12 hours a day"

    You poor soul. 12 WHOLE hours? (let me know if you don`t hear the sarcasm in that)

    Some people work 16, or more. Many a time I`ve averaged over 100 hours a week when needed.

    patchouly-"We will never own a home, never save money for a vacation, never retire."

    Sounds like you`re resigned to your fate. No use trying to better it or anything. After all, it`s much easier to blame others.

    patchouly-"How is it fair that people like us get thrown under society`s bus?"

    1) Life is not/never was/ never will be either: Fair, cheap or easy.
    2) `Society` didn`t do this to you.
  61. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:26 am
    ...and, the point of mentioning I was valedictorian is not because it holds any water in the real world but to show that I`m no slouch. I`m not a high school drop out who can`t do more than flip burgers.
  62. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:27 am
    patchouly-"swill you pay my rent and feed my kid while I go back to school?"

    See, you consider it SOMEONE ELSE`S responsibility to make it easy on you.

    Like I said, I`ve changed carreers 3 times. NOT ONCE did it involve going back to school and NEVER ONCE did I ask someone to make it easy on me.

    You only work 12 hours...that leaves you time to work on other skills. It`s YOUR responsibility.
  63. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:28 am
    You`re missing the point, MeGrendel. I`m not complaining that I work too hard. I complaining that I work as hard as everyone else, but get paid less because of low minimum wage and high employer greed.
  64. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:30 am
    Some nice twisting there, MeGrendel. You know I`m not actually asking you to pay my bills...right?

    The point is, there are no jobs out there. I`ve done everything from driving a taxi cab to picking strawberries just to pay the bills. I`m not a computer guy who is sitting around waiting for computer work, I`m a computer guy who is taking any job he can to feed his Daughter.
  65. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:33 am
    patchouly-"complaining that I work as hard as everyone else"

    Life`s not fair, and wage is not dependant on how `hard` you work, but with what value you bring to your company (and this is true from the floor sweeper all the way to the owner).

    A ditch digger with a shovel works harder than a fork-lift driver. Guess which one accomplishes more and earns more for his business?

    patchouly-"but get paid less because of low minimum wage"

    Again, if you`re 40-49 and still making minimum wage, the problem is not the system.

    patchouly-"and high employer greed."

    Of course, NEVER your fault.
  66. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    579 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:34 am
    It seems to me that raising the minimum wage, after all these arguments both for and against come to pass, simply puts the problem off for a bit only to come full circle and we do it all over again only now it`s $20 an hour. Then, $25, then $50, then more. No, I don`t have a brilliant solution and have no degree in Economics. Perhaps we need to seek out the people of goodwill who lead with great compassion for those who labor; those who understand the good of the company lies in the best care of it`s people. Then, make those the people we hold up as role models and make them the news headliners everyday. Well, one can only hope.
  67. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:35 am
    MeGrendel:
    "Like I said, I`ve changed carreers 3 times."
    -----

    You poor bastard. Three whole times? I got news for you sunshine. I`ve been through several jobs now, all in a bid to work my way up. But it`s always one dead end job to the next. Never any room to move up. Never any hope of getting paid more.
  68. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:37 am
    @patchouly
    Your argument posits that
    1) corporations are greedy, and want the poor to suffer.
    2) When minimum wage goes up businesses will become less greedy and not a) fire people or b) increase prices.

    The two views are not compatible. Your personal situation is sad, and I empathize with you. I really do, but it does not change my stance. Everything that I know about economics and the job market indicates that you, and I, would be worse off if the Minimum Wage increased.
  69. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:38 am
    MeGrendel:
    "Again, if you`re 40-49 and still making minimum wage, the problem is not the system. "
    ----

    I`m 43. After the business I worked for went under, I have been able to find any other work that has a similar pay. It`s a devastating sea of low paying crap out here. It`s easy to sit back with your secure, high paying job and judge. Just wait until this happens to you or someone you know. Then you will change your tune.
  70. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:39 am
    @JadesDitoyr,
    I agree. Raising minimum wage will make the greedy bastards raise the cost of things and then nothing is gained. That`s why we need some sort of control. Some way to reign in the corporations.
  71. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:41 am
    patchouly-"complaining that I work as hard as everyone else"

    Life`s not fair, and wage is not dependant on how `hard` you work, but with what value you bring to your company (and this is true from the floor sweeper all the way to the owner).

    A ditch digger with a shovel works harder than a fork-lift driver. Guess which one accomplishes more and earns more for his business?

    patchouly-"but get paid less because of low minimum wage"

    Again, if you`re 40-49 and still making minimum wage, the problem is not the system.

    patchouly-"and high employer greed."

    Of course, NEVER your fault.

    patchouly-"there are no jobs out there."

    Yes, there is. Maybe not in your field or your location. That`s why you have to be willing to change either or both.

    Currently, If I were looking for a job, I`d head to North Dakota. 3% unemployment rate due to oil boom. Even the local McDonald`s is
  72. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:43 am
    There just aren`t any jobs out there. The unemployment numbers don`t mean anything because you have people like me, working part time minimum wage jobs. We take what we can get, but the pickings are slim.

    That sucks but I don`t see forcing places to pay more for entry level jobs helping those employment numbers just the opposite infact. Assistance is fine if you`re making an effort but in this country people make a living spitting out kids and not taking care of them because of the way the system is setup. Keep looking there`s going to be something out there at some point.
  73. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:43 am
    patchouly-"there are no jobs out there."
    MeGrendel:
    "Yes, there is."
    ----

    Yes there is. Minimum wage, part time jobs. TONS of them. That`s what I do. Problem is, there isn`t any work that will pay the bills.
  74. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:45 am
    patchouly-"Just wait until this happens to you "

    That`s just it. It HAS happened to me. An entire industry changed and I had to change careers.

    I was laid off due to a reduction in forces, I went from chemical lab to filling pails and drums because it paid. I worked my way BACK to chemical work and earned a spot in Research.

    I change again because I developed a system for my company. I CREATED my current job.
  75. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:47 am
    @McGovern1981,
    There are people who abuse the system. I won`t go on welfare. I`ll take what work I can get. But it shouldn`t be this way. A guy who did well in school, trained, works hard and does what he can to get by shouldn`t suffer in this society. I am a beacon of where things are going. It used to be that just the lazy went under and complained. Now it`s happening to the middle class. I was at the bottom of that line and now I`m under it. It`s moving up and it`s just a matter of time before that line is above where you guys are. You`ll see. The erasure of the middle class is working it`s way up and you guys are next.
  76. Profile photo of Mikeman64
    Mikeman64 Male 40-49
    138 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:47 am
    Let`s raise the minimum wage to $500.00 hour. Will that help? Good luck getting food from the new $750.00 value menu.Higher minimum wages equals less jobs people. A good employee will be paid based on the value of their work.
  77. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:48 am
    patchouly-"Yes there is. Minimum wage...yadda yadda BS poor me"

    I noticed you cut the part of my post that pointed out there ARE jobs, and even told you of one prime example...if you`re willing to put some effort into it.

    You demonstrate that you are not willing.

    So, we`ll just realize that you`re only willing to blame others.
  78. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:48 am
    @MeGrendel,

    That`s called "luck". I find that to be a common thread in folks like you. You were lucky enough to pull out and then assume it`s because you are somehow better or worked harder. The point I`m making is, that simply isn`t the case.
  79. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:50 am
    MeGrendel:
    "I noticed you cut the part of my post that pointed out there ARE jobs, and even told you of one prime example...if you`re willing to put some effort into it.

    You demonstrate that you are not willing."
    ----

    Willing to what? Pick up my family, have my wife quit her job and move to the US? Who will pay for the move? Who will feed my kid? I`m not going on welfare and we can`t save up enough for a move. It`s far too expensive.
  80. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:50 am
    @patchouly
    Now, what about the inverse? Would lowering minimum wage have the same chance of reducing the cost of goods?

    If unskilled labor cost less, would the skilled labor you provide produce a more livable wage?
  81. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:52 am
    Just a matter of time before the middle class erasure gets you. Trust me. Just a matter of time...
  82. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:53 am
    JadesDitoyr:
    "Now, what about the inverse? Would lowering minimum wage have the same chance of reducing the cost of goods?"
    ----

    That was the theory, wasn`t it. It worked well until corporations got greedy. Trickle down doesn`t work. They keep the extra cash and pay their workers less. That`s what really happens.
  83. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:55 am
    @patchouly
    Absolutely it will. One party benefits from class warfare and they want it to continue. The greater the poverty in America, the more people who tend to vote Democrat. The greater the wealth in America, the more people who tend to vote Republican.

    Does either party want to enact policies that reduce their voting pool?
  84. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:57 am
    @JadesDitoyr
    If you studied economics, then you know that businesses find the limits. What`s the maximum people will pay? That is now the price we charge. What is the minimum I have to pay my employees? That is now what I pay. What is the most amount of work I can get them to do? That is what I will set as their hours.

    It used to be you`d get a one hour lunch break and two coffee breaks, all paid. Now, you only get a half hour lunch, not paid. It was optional, but of course, every employer out there jumped on the opportunity to cut back on paying their employees for lunch and cut back on their breaks.
  85. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:57 am
    @patchouly
    We have too many leashes on the invisible hand, the Free Market cannot function in the United States of America, and I`m fairly certain the same is true for Canada as well.

    When I was working for the grocery industry, I would get notification at the end of the year with a chart showing my "Total Compensation" - how much went towards my retirement funds, how much went to my health insurance, how much went to the taxes that the corporation had to pay to keep me employed.
  86. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:58 am
    patchouly-"That`s called "luck"."

    No, that`s what YOU call `luck` because you can`t seem to understand that people get agead by working their asses off.

    To YOU it had nothing to do with my long hours, work ethic, had work and willingness to learn new skills and volunteer for any additional training that they offered.

    To YOU it also had nothing to do with me finding a better and easier way to accomplish something, with which I was awarded new responsibilities.

    To YOU, it`s easier to say `it`s just luck`, because you`re not willing to make your own luck.

    Go ahead, feel bitter because everyone is `luckier` than you.

    I`m sure your daughter will be pround of her `unlucky` dad. You`ll teach her to be `unlucky` and blame others, too.

    MY father, on the other hand, taught me a hard work ethic and to take responsibility for myself.
  87. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 7:58 am
    I don`t take issue with it, but it does show the mindset of the employer.
  88. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:00 am
    @MeGrendel,
    drat you. I work as hard you you do. How dare you insinuate that I don`t. You were lucky. End of story. If one of the jobs I got had paid off and I was able to move up, I wouldn`t be in this position. To suggest that your luck in finding something implies that you work harder than me at it, is just the comments of an asshat. I`m done talking with you.
  89. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:00 am
    patchouly-"Who will pay for the move?"

    WHY is it ALWAYS someone elses responsiblity to PAY for YOUR move and YOUR education?

    I think we`ve found your problem.

    It`s you.
  90. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:01 am
    @patchouly
    I never worked a job for minimum wage, never worked a job without paid lunch, and never worked a job without paid breaks. I`m 28, and do not have a college degree.

    The bottom limit on wages for the jobs I`ve taken was higher than minimum wage. Its why I took those jobs.

    The upper limit on goods purchased is subsidized by Minimum Wage.
  91. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:02 am
    Wait..you had the opportunity to volunteer for additional training that was offered? There`s your luck. I`d jump all over that in a second.

    But...you keep your head in the superiority clouds and think you are better than everyone. Typical.
  92. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:05 am
    MeGrendel:
    "patchouly-"Who will pay for the move?"

    WHY is it ALWAYS someone elses responsiblity to PAY for YOUR move and YOUR education?

    I think we`ve found your problem.

    It`s you."
    -----

    I think we can safely say it wasn`t your intelligence that got you work. Did you feel the zoom of air above your head as my comments zipped past. Very cool the way your brain contorted them to imply I was asking for a hand out.
  93. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:06 am
    patchouly-" I work as hard you you do."

    `hard` is reletive, and does not measure your worth to the company. I worked harder when I was filling pails, drums and tanks...but I accomplish more for my company doing what I do now.

    patchouly-"How dare you insinuate that I don`t."

    I didn`t. Your inferrence may be the result of your own inadequacies.

    patchouly-"You were lucky. End of story."

    No, I took responsibility for myself and didn`t b|tch and moan about it being other peoples` fault.

    `Luck` is for gambling.

    patchouly-"To suggest that your luck in finding something implies that you work harder than me at it"

    Again, it was not luck. I went where the jobs were. I changed careers as was needed.

    patchouly-"I`m done talking with you."

    Truth hurts, doesn`t it?
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:07 am
    @patchouly

    It worked well until corporations got greedy.
    Can you enlighten me as to which specific timespan that the corporations magically became greedy? I was under the impression that people have always been greedy, and that greed is nothing more than a constant. Apparently, this is untrue?

    Also, would you be so kind as to tell me which specific rich person has caused the circumstances of your life? I imagine it`s probably one of those "invisible man" things like blaming "society" or the boogey man.
  95. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:07 am
    JadesDitoyr:
    "I never worked a job for minimum wage, never worked a job without paid lunch, and never worked a job without paid breaks. I`m 28, and do not have a college degree.

    The bottom limit on wages for the jobs I`ve taken was higher than minimum wage. Its why I took those jobs.

    The upper limit on goods purchased is subsidized by Minimum Wage."
    -----

    I`m glad you were able to do that. I did all the part time jobs. I volunteered when I was too young to work and then started with gas stations, coffee shops, etc. etc. while training to work.

    I understand the argument that raising the wage will cause a raise in prices. However, we need to do something. What ever that may be. Because it`s only going to get worse out there.
  96. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:10 am
    @patchouly

    If you studied economics, then you know that businesses find the limits.
    As someone who studies economics and owns a business, I will tell you that there are always companies trying to enter the market by undercutting (aka charging less than) you.
  97. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:10 am
    @MeGrendel
    Lets be fair, there was some luck involved. You were lucky that you had the knowledge and opportunity to adapt to the situation that you were in.

    @patchouly
    Can we recognize that it does take a degree of intelligence and gumption to take such opportunities and hold on to them? Luck shows you a door - but it is the individual that walks through it right?
  98. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:10 am
    MeGrendel:
    "Truth hurts, doesn`t it?"
    ----
    No. Your lack of understanding and air of superiority hurts. I`m amazed that someone who was though it and lucky enough to get out, would not be more understanding. But, the lack of compassion is a very typical Republican trait. It`s what you guys are best known for.
  99. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:12 am
    patchouly-"There`s your luck.."

    Not luck, I had to ask for the training and prove that it was worth their while to send me.

    patchouly-"cool the way your brain contorted them to imply I was asking for a hand out."

    Let`s see. Your EXACT quotes were:
    "So, will you pay my rent and feed my kid while I go back to school?"
    "Who will pay for the move?"
    "Who will feed my kid?"

    Doesn`t take any contorting to demonstrate that was exactly what you were asking for.
  100. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:13 am
    JadesDitoyr:
    "Can we recognize that it does take a degree of intelligence and gumption to take such opportunities and hold on to them? Luck shows you a door - but it is the individual that walks through it right?"
    -----
    Absolutely. I am not currently the norm. I have the intelligence to grab hold of opportunities, but the point I`m making is that those opportunities are becoming less and less prevalent. My fear is that, what`s happening to me is slowly starting to happen to others like me. Guys like MeGrendel who were able to pull themselves out, aren`t able to do that as readily any more. It`s getting bad out here. That`s the point I`m making.
  101. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:13 am
    @patchouly
    I agree, we absolutely do need to do something. But that something isn`t minimum wage. I think minimum wage will just make the problem worse.

    So what other options are out there?
  102. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:14 am
    MeGrendel:
    "Let`s see. Your EXACT quotes were:
    "So, will you pay my rent and feed my kid while I go back to school?"
    "Who will pay for the move?"
    "Who will feed my kid?"

    Doesn`t take any contorting to demonstrate that was exactly what you were asking for."

    ------
    Really? Okay...not sure if you are trolling or just really dumb. Please tell me you are trolling?
  103. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:16 am
    JadesDitoyr:
    "I agree, we absolutely do need to do something. But that something isn`t minimum wage. I think minimum wage will just make the problem worse.

    So what other options are out there?"
    -----
    Beats me. But something has to be done. If guys like me are taking all of the part time minimum wage jobs, what are the lower class people doing? They are going on welfare and turning to crime. That would be my guess. Continuing down this road is not a good idea, for any of us.
  104. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:18 am
    @JadesDitoyr,
    The way I see it, if you force them to pay minimum wage, they will raise costs. If you give them more money to create more work, they will keep it and just make higher profits instead. Damned if you do and damed if you don`t. At least, by raising the minimum wage, you can keep a few kids from starving to death.
  105. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:23 am
    @patchouly
    I don`t know either, but we cannot just throw darts at the board and hope that something works.

    If we were going to do that, I`d start with removing the leashes to the invisible hand. Oh, yeah baby that will suck. But, after the immediate cracking of the economy we should be able to heal.

    Fighting against recession is like trying to fight the tide. The economy needs to run in cycles.
  106. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:25 am
    So... to recap:

    You`re poor due to the actions of some unknown people you`ve never met who broke through an imaginary threshold of greed at some unknown time. Additionally, a spectacular bout of unluckiness has further compounded your difficulties by suppressing your otherwise brilliant mind and abilities.

    Because of this, we should do "something" - albeit you have no idea what that "something" is.

    This is why I can`t take people like you seriously.
  107. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:26 am
    JadesDitoyr-"You were lucky that you had the knowledge and opportunity to adapt to the situation that you were in."

    The knowledge I earned. I gave up much of my entertainment life to acquire it. And I continue to acquire it.

    And was willing to adapt. I was lucky to live in a society that allows the chance.

    I could also say I`m lucky to have my health, but I know too many in worse health that are just as successful. When I see a married couple, a Paraplegic with a full-time job married to a Quadriplegic with a successful engineering gig make it succesfully, I tend to have very little patience with fools who blame `luck`.
  108. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:26 am
    @patchouly
    Social triage. Sacrificing the many to save the few. I don`t want to phrase it that way, but that`s what I`m seeing.

    Nah, I love phrasing it that way.

    But, that is what you`re suggesting. A lot of kids are hungry now, so we`re going to ensure that a few don`t starve. Taking food out of the mouths of some to feed the others.
  109. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:29 am
    @MeGrendel
    Oh, I`m not saying that you came by your education through luck or that you were able to adapt through luck.

    I`m saying that luck did play a part in you being in the right place at the right time with the right education and mindset.
  110. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:30 am
    @HumanAction,
    Not at all. I think you need to reread.
  111. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:32 am
    @JadesDitoyr,
    Maybe right. Sad that it has come to this. As I said though. My fear is that it`s going to continue to get worse. We are seeing an erasure of the middle class. Not long and it will be the rich and the poor. Then guys like MeGrendel will be complaining about making crap money like the rest of us.
  112. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:34 am
    MeGrendel:
    "I tend to have very little patience with fools who blame `luck`."
    -----
    That`s because you were one of the lucky ones. It`s easy to say that when it happened to you. It`s like winning the lottery and then telling everyone that you bought the ticket because of a skill that no one else has. It`s specious reasoning.
  113. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:36 am
    @JadesDitoyr,
    Thanks for being the civil one. If more Republicans were like you, it would be much easier to have debates about this stuff. The other nimrods are so brainwashed all they can do is point fingers and blame. (Sort of like the guy at the top of the pile in my original cartoon post)...
  114. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3286 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:38 am
    @patchouly, seriously?

    Just take the plunge and get on welfare until you can learn some MARKETABLE skills. Or is your epeen so small that you have a complex where you can`t ask for help?

    Or, you said you know how to program, with that 4 hours that you aren`t doing much (12 hours of work, 8 for sleep), start your own project, and find a buyer. Now, this project has to be MARKETABLE. Might I suggest a simple, yet intuitive, video game?
    Using C++, you can easily make, and sell, a game on Steam. Check out "VVVVVV". It was completely coded in C++ (a very simple language to learn, if you don`t know it already).
    Then learn some Java, and sell it on Android.
    Convert the C++ code to Objective C, and sell it on Apple.
  115. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:40 am
    @patchouly

    Not at all. I think you need to reread.
    OK, so I`ve reread your posts and here is what I`ve found.

    1. You are not responsible for your current circumstances.
    2. Lack of sufficient luck is partially responsible for your current circumstances.
    3. Some "rich people" who you refuse to name are partially responsible for your current circumstances.
    4. In the past, greed was not at a sufficient level to be a major problem; today, it is at that level. You cannot identify the point in time in which that threshold was broken. Furthermore, you cannot identify the threshold since greed is immeasurable.
    5. Your high level of intelligence and skill have not been very useful in advancing your circumstances.

    How`s that?
    Sounds about right?
  116. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:44 am
    DuckBoy87, I don`t have "free time". On top of work I also have to raise a kid.
  117. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:45 am
    @patchouly
    My family ran a Conservative Radio Network for 30 years before the market was glutted by the big names, so civil discourse was part of my training growing up.

    Yeah, my family went from owning a multimillion dollar network to scraping by when CNN, FOX, CBS, and NBC remembered that radio news is a thing. We understand financial hardships, but we do what we must because we can.

    But the thing to remember is that for every yelling republican there is a yelling democrat.

    One interesting thing to note is that about a month ago, I posted three videos about MW, one in favor of, one against, and one about the morality behind it. All three were rated a 1.9 after a day. Why is this one a 3.0?
  118. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:51 am
    @patchouly

    On top of work I also have to raise a kid.
    I`m confused. Is this due to luck or rich people?

    Really, I`m just looking for an admission that your actions and decisions are partially responsible for your situation.
  119. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:57 am
    HumanAction:
    "Really, I`m just looking for an admission that your actions and decisions are partially responsible for your situation."
    -----
    Of course. The choices one makes leads them to the end result. I made the best choices I could with what was available. Some of those choices ended in a dead end job. But that is sometimes only obvious in hindsight.

    For example. I took a job driving a cab because I had bills to pay and teaching wasn`t cutting it. I gave up one dead end job to move into another. No way to push forward. No way to "create new jobs". Just a way to make more money then I am now. If I ever get the opportunity to apply for a job with the possibility for advancements, I`ll take it in a heart beat. Problem is, they aren`t out there.

  120. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:58 am
    patchouly-"That`s because you were one of the lucky ones."

    And you must blame `luck` for your own shortfallings.

    This does not make it true.

    patchouly-"It`s like winning the lottery and then telling everyone that you bought the ticket because of a skill that no one else has."

    Winning the lottery is luck. I believe in luck and play the lottery.

    But, educating yourself and training yourself to be proficient in a particular field that you know has opportunity, and then actively pursuing that opportunity and changing fields when theh opportunity runs out is not `luck`.
  121. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:00 am
    MeGrendel:
    "But, educating yourself and training yourself to be proficient in a particular field that you know has opportunity, and then actively pursuing that opportunity and changing fields when theh opportunity runs out is not `luck`."
    ----
    That`s what I did when I learned how to program that stupid robot arm. How was I to know that the company would go under? Not luck? Must be my shortcomings? Give me a break.
  122. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:01 am
    patchouly-"Problem is, they aren`t out there."

    You keep saying that.

    When we point out that they are, in fact, available and even point you to examples, you start bleating "So, will you pay my rent and feed my kid while I go back to school?" ,"Who will pay for the move?" ,"Who will feed my kid?"

    Just admit that those jobs are not 1) where you currently live and unwilling to move from and 2) include skills and knowledge you are unwilling to learn.

    I know, I know..it`s `Da Rich Guy`s fault.
  123. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:06 am
    @patchouly

    Why can`t you start a part-time business on top of your current work? That`s how I started.

    Right after college, I worked full-time (and then some) as a developer. During that time, I started my company as a part-time venture to make extra cash.

    It sucked. I worked nonstop. After a year though, it had grown so much that I could quit my full-time job and run the business instead.

    Now, certainly there was some luck in play. However, I don`t think it was more than an average amount; reason alone tells me that my amount of luck is almost certainly within a few std. dev. of the norm.

    Therefore, I have to think that my actions and decisions were the driving force behind my success. Surely luck didn`t educate me, nor move me halfway across the country, nor make me start a business, nor make me work all those nights and weekends.
  124. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:06 am
    MeGrendel:
    "Just admit that those jobs are not 1) where you currently live and unwilling to move from and 2) include skills and knowledge you are unwilling to learn."
    -------
    I can`t afford to move. It costs thousands of dollars. I can`t afford to move. How hard is that for you to understand? I can`t afford to feed my family properly, how can I afford to move? I didn`t say "who will pay..." because I want you to pay. I said "who will pay..." because there is no one to pay for it. I certainly can`t and no one else will.


    As for the skills. I learn new skills all the time. I`ve had a bunch of jobs. Pumping gas, working at a retirement home, Programing, computer repair, driving a cab, teaching music at a school, running a business... The list goes on. I have had to retrain so many times I am a true renaissance man in my list of things I can do.
  125. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:08 am
    HumanAction
    "Why can`t you start a part-time business on top of your current work? That`s how I started."
    ---

    I do that. I give guitar lessons on the side. I also run a web design business, own two forums and administrate for a well known magazine`s forums. I do what I can to make ends meet. Problem is, nothing ever seems to pan out and I am continuously having to renew my strategy.
  126. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:09 am
    Oh brother, the "heartless right wing/republican" dogma of the left. It`s an old song. I know every verse of it, every chord change.
  127. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:10 am
    patchouly-"That`s what I did when I learned how to program that stupid robot arm. How was I to know that the company would go under?"

    That`s what I did when I learned all about graphic design. How was I to know the advent of the computer would put make the old-style lay-out artist job obsolete?

    The difference is I didn`t sit around waiting for old-style lay-out artwork to come back into popularity.

    That`s when I changed careers to chemistry.
  128. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:12 am
    MeGrendel:
    "That`s what I did when I learned all about graphic design. How was I to know the advent of the computer would put make the old-style lay-out artist job obsolete?

    The difference is I didn`t sit around waiting for old-style lay-out artwork to come back into popularity.

    That`s when I changed careers to chemistry."
    -----
    That`s why I gave up on "robot arms" and learned to program HTML. I started working with a a webdesign company and they went under when a larger company started taking all their business. Maybe that one was my fault as well?
  129. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:13 am
    Not a difference at all, MeGrendel.
  130. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:13 am
    Same amount of work. Same strategies. Different luck with the end results.
  131. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:14 am
    patchouly-"I can`t afford to move. It costs thousands of dollars."

    It`s too HAAAARRRRRD.

    There was a time I moved at the beginning of the month whether I wanted to or not.

    There was a time I left my wife and kids at home while I traveled far to work for better pay and find a place for them.

    Life`s not easy. And it doesn`t rely on `luck`.
  132. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:16 am
    MeGrendel:
    "It`s too HAAAARRRRRD."
    -----

    No. It`s too expensive. It takes the money to do it. I don`t have that money. Why are you having a hard time with this? I have $3 in the bank. Do you think I can move with that? If I don`t pay any bills I may be able to save up enough to move after a year or so, but then I`m also apt to find myself in court for not paying bills.
  133. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:17 am
    patchouly-"Same amount of work."

    Somehow I doubt that.

    patchouly-"Same strategies.

    No, you`re unwilling to attempt some of the strategies I`ve mentioned.

    patchouly-"Different luck with the end results."

    Again, for YOU it HAS to be luck, because it can`t possibly be YOUR responsiblity.

    Need a towel?
  134. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:18 am
    @patchouly

    Problem is, nothing ever seems to pan out and I am continuously having to renew my strategy.
    Perhaps that is your problem. The things you listed are average; many other people can do them and many other already do. The only way to get into the market then is to either charge less than everyone else or be better - which takes time.

    You say you know HTML? Everyone knows HTML. Everyone knows CSS. Everyone is at least competent in JavaScript.

    Learn Flash. Learn about Mongo or SQL architectures. Start playing around in PHP or ASP.
  135. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:19 am
    MeGrendel
    No, you`re unwilling to attempt some of the strategies I`ve mentioned. "
    ------
    Like what? Moving? Read my previous post. You must be one of those guys who thinks they are poor when they only have a few thousand dollars left in the bank.

    Moving...LOL!
  136. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:21 am
    HumanAction
    Learn Flash. Learn about Mongo or SQL architectures. Start playing around in PHP or ASP.
    ----
    I learned Flash. I am familiar with MySQL and PHP as I run my own server and the forums on it. I had to teach myself to set up and operate a WAMP Stack.
  137. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:21 am
    patchouly-"No. It`s too expensive. It takes the money to do it."

    I notice you have a computer. And probably an internet connection. Probably a cell phone too. Eliminate those and you`ll save money.

    Save enough money to pay for gas to drive to N. Dakota and get a job. You have to be REALLY crappy not to be able to find a job in N.Dakota at this time.

    Sleep in your car and send money home to cover bill.

    Or, continue what you`re doing and b\tch about how `the Rich` are screwing you over. You probably even thing they`re stealing from you, too.
  138. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3286 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:22 am
    @patchouly, you`re arguing on the internet.
    You have free time.
  139. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:24 am
    @MeGrendel

    Surely you can accept what Patchouly is saying: luck of your circumstances does play a role in your success. It is not the only factor, but it is one that should be recognised.
  140. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:24 am
    MeGrendel
    "I notice you have a computer. And probably an internet connection. Probably a cell phone too. Eliminate those and you`ll save money. "
    ----
    If you read my posts you can see that I use my computer as part of my income. I had to give up my home phone (I only use a cell phone now as it`s cheaper). If I drove to another country for work, there would be no one here to look after my Daughter (My wife works full time). I looked into daycare but it is $250 a month, just for before and after school.

    Moving is not an option. I am currently upgrading my computer skills and hoping to find something in that field. Hopefully with a company that isn`t about to go under.
  141. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:25 am
    @patchouly

    I learned Flash. I am familiar with MySQL and PHP as I run my own server and the forums on it. I had to teach myself to set up and operate a WAMP Stack.
    Good, then that`s a start. Now you need to specialize.

    You won`t find reliable work just because you know PHP and SQL; there are many other people out there who have the same skills. Go find a semi-popular framework or CMS and start developing for it. Give your code away for free. Start making a reputation for yourself as an expert.

    Then, start selling and/or branching out. This is exactly how I started. I started out in Magento.
  142. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:25 am
    patchouly-"I learned Flash. I am familiar with MySQL and PHP as I run my own server and the forums on it. I had to teach myself to set up and operate a WAMP Stack."

    See, I don`t even know half of what that meant. So you have some knowledge. Expand on it and go in a different direction.

    patchouly-"Moving...LOL!"

    Yes. Moving. One of the best options when the job market in your area sucks.

    Or, continue what you`re doing and b\tch about how `the Rich` are screwing you over.
  143. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:26 am
    DuckBoy87:
    "you`re arguing on the internet.
    You have free time."
    -----
    Actually, I am between clients. I have a meeting at 1:30. Taking an hour to make lunch and argue on the internet does not imply anything.
  144. Profile photo of DavidXJ
    DavidXJ Male 30-39
    1106 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:26 am
    If this is really how people perceive this debate, then they aren`t using an ounce of logic. It`s not that simple from either side. This cartoon makes a black and white debate out of a sea of grey.
  145. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:27 am
    @MeGrendel

    To elaborate on what I mean: you can work hard and do everything right and make good decisions and STILL end up stuck because luck turned against you.

    Not everyone who is poor is there because of bad luck, true. But equally, not everyone who is poor is there because of their own personal failings or laziness.
  146. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:31 am
    @MeGrendel

    "Yes. Moving. One of the best options when the job market in your area sucks."

    Great idea! When you have no money or little money because you can`t find work or the work you have got sucks, simply spend a whole heap of money that you don`t have to move to an area that does have good job opportunities...an area that`ll no doubt have higher house prices and rents BECAUSE it has good job opportunities.

    Real smart that.
  147. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:31 am
    HumanAction
    "Give your code away for free. Start making a reputation for yourself as an expert."
    ----
    This is what I did with HTML, (Back before everyone could do it). I used to design websites in notepad. Got a reputaion and started designing. Worked for a company that went under and opened my own webdesign business. Then, everyone learned how to program HTML. So, I found a job repairing a computer in a robot arm. I used to take the book home and learn how to program the thing and soon, I became the only person in Canada that knew how to program and repair this arm. Then, they went under. Then I found a job at a forum. I learned PHP and MySQL (enough to get by anyway) and started working for them. Sadly, they don`t pay much so I need to move on...It`s one thing after another and hasmy whole life.
  148. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:32 am
    Musuko42
    To elaborate on what I mean: you can work hard and do everything right and make good decisions and STILL end up stuck because luck turned against you.

    Not everyone who is poor is there because of bad luck, true. But equally, not everyone who is poor is there because of their own personal failings or laziness.
    -----
    This is exactly what I`m saying.
  149. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:35 am
    Musuko42-"To elaborate on what I mean: you can work hard and do everything right and make good decisions and STILL end up stuck because luck turned against you. "

    Absolutely agree. I can do EVERY thing right..and get turned into a greasy spon on the highway this afternoon.

    But, short of death, I will not stop trying nor will I blame someone else for my failure.

    All I see patchouly saying is excuses why he can`t succeed, blaming others for it and saying the only people who ARE successful are either `evil rich` or `lucky`.
  150. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:35 am
    Anyway...I have to get ready for a meeting.
  151. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:36 am
    @MeGrendel
    Still right over your head huh? Well, we can`t all be smart. Luckily you have that "skill set" to fall back on.
  152. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:38 am
    @patchouly

    But that`s my point - you never became an expert in something small enough to grow your reputation.

    You will not grow your business because you know PHP. You would need to be one of the best PHP experts in the region; you aren`t and you won`t ever be - none of us will.

    So, be realistic. Become an expert in Drupal themes. Grow a reputation for that and then expand. As a development company, you will never get enough clients without a good reputation.

  153. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:40 am
    @MeGrendel

    Luck is not a someone, and I don`t see why it`s not reasonable to blame luck if it`s been bad to you. If I, a healthy non-smoker, get diagnosed with lung cancer tomorrow, you`re damn right I`m going to get annoyed at luck.

    patchouly does not seem to be saying your accomplishments are not your own. Nor does he seem to be blaming rich people.

    What he DOES seem to be saying is that you`re wrong to treat his situation as a simple hurdle that can be beaten by just "working harder".

    Please can you not accept that sometimes luck really does deal a person a bad hand and get them trapped in a situation where they`re simply too stuck to claw themselves out?

    And that it would benefit us all as a whole to have a way to offer those stuck people a helping hand to get out (so that they in turn can return the favour along the line)?
  154. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:51 am
    @Musuko

    He was blaming rich people and corporations for his predicament earlier.

    "I complaining that I work as hard as everyone else, but get paid less because of low minimum wage and high employer greed."

    This quote suggests that, if nothing else, part of his problem is derived from employer greed; implicitly, the employer is wealthy.

    "That`s why we need some sort of control. Some way to reign in the corporations."
    This one suggests that corporations are at fault for some of the ills of society - which includes his own.

    "Make less money, you greedy bastards! Pay your employees properly."
    Since he is an employee, this quote suggests that some "greedy bastards" are at fault for failing to properly compensate him.

    So yes, he is blaming rich people for at least some of his problems.
  155. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:57 am
    @Musuko

    Now, I`ll happily admit that luck plays a role and that it is possible - albeit improbable - to be so unlucky as to become `stuck` in your situation.

    Of course, since the majority of people are in a better financial situation, this comes with the implication that he is improbably unlucky. I find it hard to imagine that, despite millions and millions of other people having average luck, he has found himself to be so drastically below average. Sure, it`s possible, but it`s extremely unlikely.

    As is almost always the case, user error is probably the cause of the problem.
  156. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:15 am
    @Musuko42 btw I answered your how does minimum wage lose jobs question awhile ago
  157. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:21 am
    I don`t know how people can deny that children of rich people have a much easier time staying rich and children of poor people tend to stay poor because they don`t have all the advantages rich kids do. Rich kids get better schools, job connections through their parents, money to start a business or an instant career in the family business or just coast through life on a trust and never work a day in their life. Rich kids start out at the top of the heap and poor kids start at the bottom of the mountain. The number of rich people grows exponentially and the chasm widens because none of the money gets spread around. To say poor people just need to work harder is totally ignoring the mounting hurdles rich people put in the way so they can stay rich and make more money than they will ever put back into the economy just so they can pass it along to their kids who will never work a day in their life or will dabble in fashion or being a dj or just being paid to show up, like Paris Hilton.
  158. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:25 am
    That`s why so many kids are acting like fools on reality tv. They don`t see any more opportunities to make money the normal way so they embarrass themselves in a desperate attempt to get out of poverty. It`s like being a court jester for the royal scraps and it`s sad.
  159. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4081 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:37 am
    Some thing a lot of the anti wage increase people say is the price of everything else will go up. If the guy at MCD`s is making 15 bucks an hour everyone will go there! Actually that`s a fair point. Now people may consider jobs like that as livable for a time being so that OTHER business`s have to charge more than minimum wage to retain them. IE anyone that works out in the weather currently as a contractor may like something like this. it makes bargaining better in their favor!. Certain industries have to start paying more and the middle class once again get`s filled!
  160. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:38 am
    @HumanAction

    "He was blaming rich people and corporations for his predicament earlier."

    My apologies: I came in late to the party and didn`t see those earlier posts. I stand corrected, and confirm that such blame is poorly placed.

    "I find it hard to imagine that, despite millions and millions of other people having average luck, he has found himself to be so drastically below average. Sure, it`s possible, but it`s extremely unlikely."

    I would say the opposite: not unlikely, but probable. Somebody has to occupy the extreme ends of the bell curve, after all.

    If not him, someone out there is right down at the really bad end of the luck spectrum.
  161. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:40 am
    @Bakcagain21

    Apologies if I missed it: was it you talking about an increased minimum wage making it profitable for a machine to do the work instead?

    Though your probably right (machine or worker in China anyway), I don`t think it applys for large swathes of our economies: Europe and the US don`t have large industries that rely on jobs that can be replaced my machines any more. Those jobs have already been replaced by machines, or have gone to cheaper workers elsewhere.

    The jobs we are doing tend to be out of the machine`s abilitys...so far anyway.
  162. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:58 am
    @Bakcagain21

    Although, a fast-food place staffed by robots would be amazing.

    But I imagine if we were capable of building robots that could do that work for cheaper than $15 an hour, we would probably (I hope) be technologically advanced enough not to have worries like this subject.
  163. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 11:00 am
    @normalfreak

    That`s only one possibility. Truth be told, we can`t know for certain who exactly will pay for the increased wages until it happens. However, I think we can agree that the money must come from somewhere.

    Therefore, there are four possibilities (least likely to most likely):

    1. The business owners can pay for it. It`s nice to think that this will be the case, but it`s not very likely since they control two of the other points below.
    2. The government can subsidize.
    3. The consumer can pay for it via increased prices.
    4. The employee can pay for it via loss of wage, loss of other compensation, or loss of time/employment.

    Can you think of any other way for the increased labor costs to be paid?
  164. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 11:04 am
    @Musuko

    Somebody has to occupy the extreme ends of the bell curve, after all.
    Absolutely. However, since it`s the extreme end of the curve, the chance of any one person occupying it is very small. The chance of any one person being two std devs below the average in term of luck is just 2.1%. Three std devs below is only 0.1%. In either case, the chance of randomly picking a person in that group is very low.

    I suppose the argument should therefore be regarding the level of unluckiness required to be `stuck` in a situation. I can`t think of a decent way to argue about this though, since there`s no concrete way to measure luck.
  165. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:02 pm
    HumanAction:
    "Absolutely. However, since it`s the extreme end of the curve, the chance of any one person occupying it is very small. The chance of any one person being two std devs below the average in term of luck is just 2.1%. Three std devs below is only 0.1%. In either case, the chance of randomly picking a person in that group is very low."
    -------
    Then I guess I fall into that small percentage. Someone has to occupy it.
    My point is that the "curve" is becoming more evident. That "0.1%" is growing. I`m one of the first to get stuck on the other side. I`m trying like Hell to fight my way out, but there will be others and the more people stuck here the harder it becomes for all of us to get out and the numbers of us that do, drop. As long as society progresses the way it is, that is the inevitable outcome.
  166. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    And, in my defense, I don`t blame "the rich". If you have risked cash to start a business and grew that business to a prosperous company then bought a huge house, a boat, fancy cars etc. I figure you deserve it. If you toiled away at school and fought your way to the top. You deserve it. However, I do take issue with the "greedy rich". The companies in particular that make billions in profit but don`t pay their employees enough to live on. The ones that could afford to pay better, but choose not to.
  167. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:14 pm
    Musuko42-"simply spend a whole heap of money that you don`t have to move to an area"

    Why does moving have to cost `heaps of money`?

    It`s still more of the `It`s too harrrrrd`.

    Musuko42-"patchouly does not seem to be saying your accomplishments are not your own. Nor does he seem to be blaming rich people."

    Then you haven`t followed the entire thread.

    Patchouly: "the greedy bastards at the top"
    Patchouly: "That`s called "luck"."
    Patchouly: "You were lucky enough to pull out"
    Patchouly: "You were lucky. End of story."
    Patchouly: "To suggest that your luck..."
    Patchouly: "There`s your luck."
    Patchouly: "lucky enough to get out"
    Patchouly: "That`s because you were one of the lucky ones."
    Patchouly: "It`s like winning the lottery"

    He lives under the delusions that he`s `trying just as ha
  168. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    Attack my character, ability and the way I raise my kids. Very classy MeGrendel.

    Again...drat you.
  169. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:20 pm
    patchouly-"make billions in profit but don`t pay their employees enough to live on."

    Again, first you have to perform some work or service to the business that warrents a living wage.

    Some jobs just do not warrent it.
  170. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:23 pm
    patchouly-"Attack my character, ability and the way I raise my kids."

    Sorry, only attacked what you`ve presented. I didn`t realize quoting your directly was an `attack`.

    You`ve demosntrated a propensity of blaming others rather than taking responsibility for yourself.

    If what you`ve described is true, you`ve demonstrated skills not all others have, but not the inclination to do anything with them.
  171. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:27 pm
    @patchouly

    Just noticed the last line got cut off.

    He lives under the delusions that he`s `trying just as hard as everyone else so the results should be just as equal`. As if equal effort does, or should, result in identicle outcomes.

    (hope the clarifies it)
  172. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:28 pm
    @MeGrendel
    And you`ve demonstrated a propensity toward thinking you are better than others because of your luck. The way you twist my statements can only imply that you are to thick to understand. I was hoping you were just a troll...guess not.
  173. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:31 pm
    MeGrendel:
    "He lives under the delusions that he`s `trying just as hard as everyone else so the results should be just as equal`. As if equal effort does, or should, result in identicle outcomes.
    -----
    I don`t live under that delusion at all. Just another example of how you are twisting my words.
  174. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:33 pm
    Well...that killed the last 15 extra minutes I had today. I have to go pick up my Daughter from school. Would you like to attack the way I parent, one last time before I pick her up?
  175. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:47 pm
    patchouly-"And you`ve demonstrated a propensity toward thinking you are better than others because of your luck."

    1) I think no such thing
    2) There you go again, attributing `luck` onto others in a sad attempt to negate your failure to accomplish. After all, it CAN`T be YOUR fault..

    patchouly-"The way you twist my statements"

    Those were DIRECT quotes. Unedited and untwisted.

    patchouly-"Would you like to attack the way I parent"

    I haven`t attacked the way you parent. It`s not part of the discussion, so why should I have an opinion? I HOPE you love your daughter and are a good father.
  176. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 12:56 pm
    175 COMMENTS?!

    It amazes me how much energy some people are willing to put into being outraged over the idea of fast-food workers getting a few more bucks per hour.
  177. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 1:31 pm
    ... and enter the obligatory comment about how people who don`t support minimum wage increases (or the entire minimum wage system) are evil. Congrats! You`re that guy.
  178. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3286 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 1:37 pm
    @patchouly: "Well...that killed the last 15 extra minutes I had today."

    You could`ve used that extra 15 minutes to think of an idea on how to use your programming skills to make a marketable program to sell it, instead of arguing on the internet.
  179. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 1:48 pm
    @DuckBoy87 actually if he listened he got a lot of business and life advice and you could argue was 15 minutes well spent today :P
  180. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4081 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 3:14 pm
    @Duckboy

    What are you talking about?
  181. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4081 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 3:19 pm
    Just like with all things McGrendle it`s not always one of two possibilities. You make it seem like there`s only Hard work and no luck when I`m fairly certain the truth lies somewhere inbetween. You work hard to get noticed and you hope that happens and you hope your skills are recognized. Not everyone gets there. I didn`tt I had to move to a different company and start my own business to get ahead. Not everyone has the gumption nor the ability to do that. Not everyone should wait to live their life until they do either because at one point their life may have passed them by. Call me a bleeding heart but I think everyone deserves a liveable wage.
  182. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    868 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 4:19 pm
    "I don`t know how people can deny that children of rich people have a much easier time staying rich and children of poor people tend to stay poor because they don`t have all the advantages rich kids do. Rich kids get better schools, job connections through their parents, money to start a business or an instant career in the family business or just coast through life on a trust and never work a day in their life."

    Rich parents ALSO tend to teach their kids to work smarter and work harder while poor parents tend to teach their kids to be happy and have fun. It`s been proven time and time again that giving $$$ to poor areas does NOT help the second generation make more $$$.
  183. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 5:14 pm
    megrendal -
    wage needs to reflect the times. right now min wage pays only $16000/yr before taxes thats if you are lucky enough to get a full 40 hrs.

    in 2012, there were 1.6 million people making min wage and another 2 million making less. even working these jobs these people are elegable for welfare. is that acceptable for you? why cant we make a wage that gets these people off of the government`s back?

    i did notice that you only picked small parts of my argument to comment on and left out answers to anything else i mentioned.the real problem with min wage is inflation. when you have to make money the existing money losses value. then how about we stop the tax avoidance the rich use everyday and make them pay their dues? this would put the much needed money back into the system and even lower inflation.
    although the min wage argument needs attention, i am more in favor of forcing a full time status for workers. companies are relying on not giving benifits a
  184. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:20 pm
    I noticed how everyone in favor of the minimum wage laws believes that raising the minimum wage will force wealthy people to pay the difference.

    I think that`s adorable.
  185. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 8:54 pm
    @jops
    If we force full time, we guarantee that employers will fire a lot of part time employees. "Sorry, I have eight of you working 20 hours a week, I`m required to keep staff on for 40, so four of you have to go, the other four get 40 hrs."

    Look, I`m all in favor of closing tax loopholes, but I do think more important is a fair (non-tiered) tax system. Sales Tax is fantastic, just saying.

    @Squrlz
    This isn`t about fast food workers, though. This is the fate of our economy that we`re talking about. I for one am thrilled to see a rigorous and real debate.
  186. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:15 pm
    I don`t believe in a minimum wage, although I have always paid more than minimum wage.
  187. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 9:42 pm
    Nothing to see here. Just a bunch of socialist claptrap. Move along...move along...
  188. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    December 18, 2013 at 10:57 pm
    @OldOllie
    I disagree, patchouly and I have had a decent conversation in which we both agreed that "something" must be done about the state of the economy and that increased minimum wages will actually hurt more people than help.

    The building of bridges and the education of others is a large part of why I love political discourse.
  189. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 1:55 am
    A minimum wage presumes that unemployment is inelastic and that in general employers will be able to sustain themselves even with the cost of labour set externally.

    If employment is elastic, the minimum wage effectively makes it illegal or illogical to employ anyone worth commercially less than the minimum wage. If an employee hasn`t managed to attain the education, experience and health required of the minimum wage, then they had better avail themselves of whatever welfare the government of the day decides to dole out, or emigrate to a place that permits you a better lifestyle at your local value point than your home territory`s welfare permits.

    If the general population of employers are unable to pass on their costs to consumers (such as in a recession) then unemployment will rise, as employers go bust or transfer their activities away from the regulated economy.

  190. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:01 am
    If these assumptions below break down and unemployed people do not emigrate, but are allowed to claim welfare, then:

    Increased minimum wages will have caused inflation so that the welfare costs per person increase, or the quality of living possible on welfare decreases. Furthermore the number of unemployed claiming welfare rises.

    Therefore: If welfare spending increases to support the unemployed then debt rises to its limit and/or increased taxes are levied, penalising holders of capital and/or other contributors to the economy such as productive people and productive companies.

    So an increase in taxes also contributes to flight of talent and capital from the economy.
  191. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:17 am
    It`s hard to make the minimum wage work. You have to find a way to prevent capital and talent leaving. You can`t achieve a homogenous global market without levelling inequalities between rich and poor nations.

    Perhaps you may have to prevent people moving from poor areas to wealthy areas and set different minimum wages.

    The measures described in this post are some of the tenents of global communism which failed spectacularly.
  192. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:27 am
    My point is legislating a minimum wage (let alone raising it to satisfy short term political gains)is fraught with problems of implementation and consequence.

    I would like to see all my employees earn not only a legislated minimum wage, but to have a good lifestyle and upward mobility. I hire poor people with little education and give them security and a fair wage and upward potential. None of my many staff have a college degree. All earn significantly over the minimum, but not all industries can afford to do so.

    Unfortunately the answer has to be to provide some mechanism for workers who cannot perform to the minimum wage to find a less remunerative way to make money. It is illogical for society to squander these labour resources. Welfare should be reserved for those that are unable to work and whose immediate and extended families are unable to support them.
  193. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:36 am
    The flaw in the argument against a minimum wage and welfare is that the American culture/society does not support immediate family to the extent that it does in other parts of the world. Everyone is pursuing their own American Dream and those that aren`t pursuing it so well feel entitled to governmental support.

    That`s why society has to change. Firstly, there will always be rich and poor, because (except for certain national exceptions) there is no sustainable way to level society and still prosper. Greed and the intent to benefit one`s own family is human nature.

    Secondly, the balance between rich and poor must be struck so as to reduce the wealth gap. Social mobility must be increased. Legislating employers is more palatable than legislating against wealth. Neither would be particularly effective in America`s case.
  194. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:42 am
    What has to chance is society and its culture. People must take care of their own extended family and friends. Recipients of benefits must learn to appreciate charity.

    I have seen with my own eyes people in poorer parts of the world who still understand about community and get by with a lot less than we in the developed world have.

    Please don`t dismiss this as "Liberalism", "Socialism", "Communism", or "Unfettered Capitalism". It is none of these. We have to keep an open mind and change.

    Likewise don`t simply dismiss me as an America hater. My concern isn`t limited to America. I so want everyone to return to prosperity, for people to care for those in need and for society to be fair but motivated.
  195. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:46 am
    The first step is to drop the nationalistic bravado and the Maury "I can do what I want" attitude that is so prevalent in culture today. No society is perfect, but we can all learn from other countries that do certain things better than our own.

    Please drop the pretence, look around and change the way we speak about politics and society. It has to happen on an individual basis. If we as a global society do not get our act together we will be heading for more pain and an eventual hard reset.
  196. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:54 am
    At least, this holiday season try to mend bridges between family members and reach out to family and friends and people in your community that are in need. Employees, try to perform beyond your wage level. Employers and capital providers, you have to think with your heart. Not because companies with soul do better or some slogan like that, but because is is the right thing to do.

    OK, I`m all ranted out now. I hope this at least explains my neither liberal nor conservative politics and my frequent rants about American/ European society. Despite my lack of religion, I have a strong intuitive moral code and I genuinely wish everyone happiness, peace, goodwill and prosperity.
  197. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 6:55 am
    normalfreak2-"You make it seem like there`s only Hard work and no luck"

    I make it seem no such way. I stated that MY situation was not attributed to luck, it involved sacrifice, hard work and self-improvement. Whereas patchouly states ONLY luck is involved if anyone is more successful than he is.

    normalfreak2-"Not everyone has the gumption nor the ability to do that."

    That is their issue..and the same people are more likely to say that others were just `lucky`. Sorry, in real life, not everyone gets a trophy for competing.

    normalfreak2-"Call me a bleeding heart but I think everyone deserves a liveable wage."

    Even though not everyone is willing to put in the effort to earn it? Funny that.
  198. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 6:56 am
    jops360-"right now min wage pays only $16000/yr before taxes"

    Which is a stat that means absolutely nothing as min wage WAS NEVER DESIGNED TO BE A LIVING WAGE. It`s for high-school kids. If you`re 40 and still making min wage, the issue is not with the system.

    jops360-"i am more in favor of forcing a full time status:"

    So you would FORCE those that DO NOT WANT full time out of a job? How heartless.
    Not to menition most businesses only require a certain amount of man-hours a week. If it only requires 400 man hours a week to man a business, you can hire 10 workers at full time (or fewer and pay overtime) instead of the 20 working 20 hours. Congratulations, you just increased unemployement.
  199. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 9:30 am
    Musuko42-"Why such emphasis on effort?"

    Yes, I guess effort was not the ideal word. After all, a guy pushing 5 lbs of force on the lift-handle of a forklift has much better results than a guy pushing 5 lbs of force on a stapler.

    In this case, by `effort` I meant work ethic, improving oneself and actually showing up for work.

    Musuko42-"I abhor the notion that everyone has to climb the ladder,"

    Putting in the effort to make more than minimum wage is harldy `climbing a ladder`. You actively have to suck to stay stuck at min wage.
  200. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 9:33 am
    Musuko42-"where you can succeed and earn more in ANY job, depending on how you work/perform?"

    I haven`t said you have to find a `certain` job. And you CAN inprove your lot ANY job, by proving you`re worth more.

    In college I delivered pizza`s. I stayed at minimum wage for exactly two weeks, because I proved that I was willing to deliver pizza, clean up, run errands, repair the oven, would work extra hours if needed, and would willingly do anything that needed to be done, many times without having to be asked. I MADE myself valuable to them.

    With a little more effort and time, I could have managed the store...but was not what I wanted.
  201. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 9:34 am
    Musuko42-"What`s stopping us changing the design?"

    The very fact that there is a certain portion of the workforce that does not contribute enough to warrent a living wage.

    And also the fact that there is a significant portion of the workforce THAT WILL WILLINGLY work for less than a living wage, for various reasons. I didn`t NEED a living wage in college, I needed enough to pay for books and gas.
  202. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 11:06 am
    @Musuko

    How is it beyond the understanding of us all to realise that the economy is there to serve the needs of man, and not the other way around?
    What utter and complete nonsense. The "economy" doesn`t exist in such a capacity; it`s no more than a collection of actions and decisions made by other people. The economy is people. An economy sans people doesn`t exist.

    You`re suggesting that some people exist to serve the needs of other people, which is a terrifying belief structure given ample consideration.
  203. Profile photo of Phosphoreign
    Phosphoreign Male 30-39
    308 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:16 pm
    I think it is sad that in America today success is considered a sign of poor character... like every successful business, every successful business owner is just sitting on a massive pile of cash and their just big meanies who won`t share.
  204. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm
    Musuko42-"if you had won that competition"

    Correction: "Earned that advancement".

    Musuko42-"every other employee there loses out"

    BS, by that time 95% of the employees would have moved on to better jobs. Pizza delivery is not a freakin career.

    I was paid more than minimum wage because I put in more effort. Other workeers ALSO made more than minimum wage for thier effort. Quite a few were only paid minimum wage only because it was against the law to pay them less.

    Those that put in the effort, made more. Those that were just biding their time, didn`t. Not counting the existing managers, you turn over the entire crew in a year or two. Everyone who wanted to went on to better jobs. The couple that were still there were because they didn`t want to put the effort into developing their workskills.
  205. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm
    Musuko42-"could be making sure that ALL jobs are worthwhile and fulfilling"

    Because there are some jobs that are just not fulfilling.

    Musuko42-"can pay well if you work hard at it?"

    See, now you`re discriminating on those that don`t want to work hard.

    Musuko42-"No, that`s not true at all."

    Actually, it`s more often true than it`s not. The only people who are stuck with minimum wage is; 1) unskilled labor just entering entry-level jobs for the experience & 2) unskilled label that are still stuck in entry-level jobs because they remain unskilled. (this does not count wait staff who, while technically are paid less than min wage, if they`re any good actually make much more than minimum wage).
  206. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:32 pm
    Musuko42-
    "1: there aren`t enough places on the top of the ladder for everyone. "
    "2: we`re always going to need people at the bottom of the ladder. "

    & 3: with a little effort you can work you way up a few rungs.
    & 4: with a lot of effort you can make it up quite a lot of the rungs.

    Musuko42="Show me a company where there`s a 1:1 ratio of workers and managers/executives"

    If I did that, I`d be showing you a failed company. The point you`re avoiding is that you can actually be quite successful as a worker, also. I`m not in management, but neither am I pushing a mop (although some people make good money pushing mops). I`m in a position I created for myself.
  207. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6267 posts
    December 19, 2013 at 2:32 pm
    Musuko42-"That`s the kind of undercutting that lead to unions and the like to stop it."

    Yes, let`s make the workplace infinitely worse by introducing unions into it.

    Musuko42-"Undercutting your fellow worker is bad for all workers in the long run."

    1) it`s a fact that you`re not going to be able to change.
    2) it`s not bad, due to the fact that those `various reasons` are perfectly viable reasons. (such as, just want a job to pick up a little extra money, want to work part time while kids are in school,etc)

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