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Date: 11/07/13 11:45 AM

89 Responses to Young Avoid New Health Plans [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 11:45 am
    Link: Young Avoid New Health Plans - Early Buyers of Coverage Are Older Than Expected, Raising Expense Concerns
  2. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    868 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 11:53 am
    link to actual article? This link requires me to log into WSJ...
  3. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:02 pm
    Alright, I think I actually have a link that works now via Yahoo Finance without clearing cookies.
  4. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:13 pm
    That`s why the penalty to not having insurance should be higher than having the cheapest insurance available OR now we should have it that if you don`t have insurance, you don`t get healthcare because now there`s no excuse to not have it.
  5. Profile photo of Izroth
    Izroth Female 30-39
    154 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    Yep it sure does, we can`t see it without username or password
  6. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:22 pm
    @lauriloo

    Exactly! As long as you threaten to hurt them enough, they`ll do exactly what you want. Then, if we can just hurt enough people, everything will just be so great and happy.
  7. Profile photo of pianok
    pianok Male 50-59
    320 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:24 pm
    I guess you are getting a commission on the subscribers from this link????????
  8. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    A long article based on scare tactics from the private insurers.

    So here`s the sample data

    Total Number of applicants that may bring up the costs up for 250+ million Americans seeking mandated insurance:

    WI - 150 applicants

    CT & KY = 4000 applicants

    The data is even more fudged since we have no idea when these numbers became figures (i.e. when people signed up).

    BS article = drat the Wall Street Journal

  9. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:51 pm
    @HumanAction: Thanks for the Yahoo! Linky!

    @lauriloo: you REALLY don`t know what ObamaCare says, or does, do you?

    #1 - $95 or 1% of your income, whichever is MORE? is just the FIRST STEP! Over time these numbers go up, fast.

    #2 - Forcing people to buy the CHEAPEST POSSIBLE insurance? Is THAT what Obama has been promising all along? FORCING THEM?

    Isn`t that what people already do? Buy the "best bang for the buck"? They need a multi-trillion dollar Government Program to FORCE THEM to do this?

    @llaa: Um, your comment makes ZERO sense bro... (sarc) Thanks for participating though! Have a Gold Star! (/sarc)

    Don`t worry! The HHS promised to reveal the sign-up numbers... soon... any day now... most of them... perhaps... (note: not joking!)
  10. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 12:54 pm
    5cats - I read the article not the title.
  11. Profile photo of bliznik
    bliznik Male 30-39
    868 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    Thx Human!
  12. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 1:15 pm
    To Clarify:

    The article makes the argument that the trend of older & sicker Americans signing up for health Ins may lead to increased costs for all Americans based on limited statistical evidence provided by two private insurers in 3 stupid Corporatist states: Wisconsin, Connecticut, and Kentucky.

    The evidence provided is that a total of 4,150 Americans have received health insurance through those states health exchanges(Obamacare) and that over 50% of those 4,150 Americans are over 50 years of age and possibly sick. This very small sampling of 4,150 Americans could affect the healthcare costs of hundreds of millions of Americans because the over 50 and sick and young people are not signing up quickly enough.

    I said its scare tactics because the article is implying that private insurance are going to face a burden operating when Americans citizens pay their governmental subsidized private insurance. So they may need more $$$ to operate.

    I
  13. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 2:09 pm
    @llaa:

    Yes it is "limited statistical evidence" because as Marilyn Tavenner has stated "We made the decision that we were not releasing the numbers until mid-November" when she testified before the House Ways and Means Committee. If the numbers were positive they of coarse would release them to settle any fears people had about it and bolster enrolment.

    What the article does do is look at the practicality of the insurance marketplaces given the information insurance companies have already.

    There is no one saying that young people are enrolling in the system in high numbers and that indicates a huge problem.

  14. Profile photo of danagamer
    danagamer Male 30-39
    701 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 2:22 pm
    Young people are healthy and don`t care about health care coverage. Most old people are poor and sick, they need health care caoverage. what`s the big mystery?
  15. Profile photo of ieatbunnies
    ieatbunnies Male 30-39
    880 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 2:52 pm
    I am an individual who doesnt have insurance (dropped by cancelled plans) and wanted to sign up for Obamacares new plans. First, it took numerous attempts to actually get to see plans and then when I did, all the plans were around 175% higher than current plans (of the ones which I could closely match up), and they are all very increased deductibles, while offering little benefit.

    I will be happily paying the penalty for not having health insurance, because it would cost me more and I would never use the deductible.

    And having looked over the calculation, I could have a compound fracture in my forearm (my latest injury) and it would be cheaper to work a payment plan with the hospital than to have health insurance.
  16. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 2:58 pm
    @ieatbunnies

    Ditto, you`re more likely to get a 4-figure price tag over a 5-figure one going that route.
  17. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6269 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 3:27 pm
    danagamer-"what`s the big mystery?"

    No mystery, but the numbers about how `affordable` Obamacare is comes from the fact they were expecting* loads of younger, healthier enrollees to spread the cost around and make them overall cheaper. (the `*` next to expected is because they BASED their numbers on that, but never truly thought it would happen..but it made the numbers more palatable. And let`s be clear..the numbers have been BS from day one.)

    But, the youngun ain`t signing up for two reasons:
    1) Now you`re classified as a `kid` until you`re 26 and can be on your parents insurance.
    2) Many are finding it cheaper to take the penalty.
  18. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:09 pm
    richanddead: ugh, its hard to edit in this small box when my response is over 1000 characters!

    What I meant to say is,
    "This very small sampling of 4,150 Americans could affect the healthcare costs of hundreds of millions of Americans because the over 50 and sick. And young people are not signing up quickly enough to cover the costs."

    Its bs info from private insurers servicing corporatist/facist states reporting to a facist newspaper. I`ve looked at the exchanges in my home state and my platinum insurance for my needs is $500 less per month than what I paid two years ago and with no deductible and lower co-payments with no deductible. I do have experience with these matters: I have worked for private non-profit insurers in NYC for a number of years. Ill wait for more info next year to see if it has issues. I don`t see the ACA failing atm other than a website that did not work well on its initial release.

    Name one major software develop
  19. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:10 pm
    @llaa: I know very well what you said and what your article tries to say, but you`re just... wrong!

    IF by April? Lots of young folks DON`T sign up? THAT will be a problem!
    >Who says this? HHS!
    Right now? It LOOKS LIKE older, sicker folks are signing up FASTER than young healthy folks.
    >Who says this? HHS!

    So unless you have a problem with Obama, the White House and HHS? It`s NOT a "scare tactic" it`s A FACT!

    Oh yeah! @richanddead explained it also :-)

    ..in 3 stupid Corporatist states...
    This ALONE makes you an abject idiot, you know that? It`s OBAMA`S ACA! A Federal TAX! The states are just IMPLIMENTING IT.

  20. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:12 pm
    Name one software development that had no bugs on initial release.
  21. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:16 pm
    5cats: You assume way too much. Take a breather there...

    <..in 3 stupid Corporatist states...>

    Wisconsin: Paul Walker - Friend of the Kochs is the governor.

    Kentucky: home of Mitch McConnel

    Conneticut: Home to Many Many Rich WASPs that run wall street.

    How am I wrong in my assessment that they are run by fascists?
  22. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:18 pm
    @Ilaa
    Name one software company that forces me to either buy their product or pay them a fine for not buying their product?
  23. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:32 pm
    Microsoft Windows. Or the further stretch the answer to your stretch of a question could be owning a car with an engine cpu therefore forcing you to buy car insurance or you could face possible forfeiture of your car.

    Can you answer my question?
  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:36 pm
    @llaa

    Wisconsin: Paul Walker - Friend of the Kochs is the governor.
    Wisconsin is hardly a corporatist/fascist state. Scott* Walker (Paul Walker is an actor) is the governor, yet, what has he done that you believe is corporatist/fascist? On the other hand, the last senator elected is a lesbian Democrat and Wisconsin happens to be the birthplace of the public union. Having a Republican governor does not make a state fascist.

    As a side note, the price of my HDHP is now 300% of its cost last year. An HDHP is now more than half the cost of an HMO.
  25. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:38 pm
    @llaa

    How am I wrong in my assessment that they are run by fascists?
    You presented the claim; therefore, the burden of proof is yours. You are responsible for proving that the states are run by fascists - not the other way around.

    Microsoft Windows.
    You got fined for not buying Windows? Holy sh*t, dude, you got taken for a ride. You should call the police.
  26. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 4:59 pm
    HumanAction:
    The questions was, "Name one software company that forces me to either buy their product or pay them a fine for Not Buying their product".

    You ever hear about a business or school getting caught using windows without buying it? The fines do run in the millions depending how many many copies are using without purchasing.

    Fascism = Corporatism per Mussolini. Paul Walker is governor of a gerrymanding state this is electing officials that will protect corporate/Koch interests by decimating public and private unions by enacting laws that repelling protectionist worker rights laws. After all fascism differs from liberalism by its protection of business and landowning elites and its preservation of class systems.

    Sorry to hear you lost your useless insurance. If you actually needed to use it, you would be really sad to find out what your care really costs. So were you paying 30 bucks a month and now have to spend 90 bucks?
  27. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:00 pm
    @llaa

    I think of all those poor people who buy Apple and have to write a check out to Microsoft and weep for... wait... I don`t actually think that is happening. (If it is, I just might owe somebody a lot of money...)

    Further, you need liability insurance to drive a car, not own it.

    Here`s the deal, you want us to accept the bugs and the kinks in a federally mandated system because we do so for a company that we voluntarily do business with.

    If I dislike Apple`s (or Microsoft`s) product/interface/what have you, I am not obligated to purchase/engage in it. With ACA, I do not have the choice, so my tolerance of bugs and kinks is much lower.
  28. Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:01 pm
    @llaa
    Oh, you were talking about not paying for a product and stealing it. Yeah, not at all what I was talking about.
  29. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:02 pm
    I dont mean to sound like a prick, but we all will get sick and die. But maybe we could just get sick and get better and not die before we got to do what we wanted with our lives.
  30. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:15 pm
    "Exactly! As long as you threaten to hurt them enough, they`ll do exactly what you want."

    Having health insurance hurts people? News to me.
  31. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:17 pm
    "Young people are healthy"

    Yeah, right. My nephew-in-law just went to the ER because he gashed his wrist on a piece of metal under a dashboard he was working on as a mechanic. But people in their 20s NEVER need healthcare, right?
  32. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:22 pm
    "Oh, you were talking about not paying for a product and stealing it. Yeah, not at all what I was talking about."

    Actually, that`s exactly what happens when someone without health insurance gets treated anyway and the hospital makes the rest of us pay for it.
  33. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:23 pm
    @llaa: yea, i hate the 1000 word cap too.

    "Its bs info from private insurers"

    I`d like you to site where you found that this was BS info. These Insurance companies are going to make money one way or the other. They have no incentive to lie firstly. Secondly, if they did it would be quickly reacted to by a government official, another insurance agency, a ACA contractor, the CMS, or anyone else who is able to currently view the numbers, it was on the front page and the top story. I just don`t know how you`re able to just discount it as BS without siting anything that states that this info is false. Is it BS because you disagree with it?



  34. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:23 pm
    And to your statement "corporatist/facist states reporting to a facist newspaper."

    Firstly, it is spelled "fascist" not facist, but that is besides the point. Despite your own political leanings, these people have never endorsed anything fascist. The article also mention Ohio as having the same problems, Sherrod Brown is their senator, and he is a democrat, is he also a fascist in your eyes? I can also tell you here in Maryland the baltimore sun has reported on the same issue, saying that 2/3`s individual people who have visited the site, not even been able to enroll just even going to the site were old. Other than California we are as liberal a state as they come, are we a fascist state?.

    And to say the WSJ is a fascist newspaper when it has won 34 Pulitzers, has frequently criticized both parties, and is the largest and most read newspaper out there is pretty laughable to say the least.
  35. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:24 pm
    Actually, in a 2004 study of the bias leaning of all media sources the WSJ actually came in more liberal than NPR, OR the NYT. Here it is if you`d like to read it. link

    Also I wrote Mr. Christopher Weaver, the one who wrote the article. He told me that the data they were given was from the very end of October of this year, he said they tried to get information from other states engaged in the governments plan but

    "The federal government has declined to release figures for the 36 states that it oversees, and an number of states that are running their own exchanges have not yet been able to transmit data to insurers; thus, even insurers in those markets do not know. --Chris"
  36. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:26 pm
    "Young people are healthy"

    Yeah, right. My nephew-in-law just went to the ER because he gashed his wrist on a piece of metal under a dashboard he was working on as a mechanic. But people in their 20s NEVER need healthcare, right? Young people might not get the same diseases as older people as often but they take part in risky activities older people usually don`t.
  37. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:31 pm
    @lauriloo: "Having health insurance hurts people? News to me."

    No, fines and grossly overpriced health insurance hurt people.

    "Actually, that`s exactly what happens when someone without health insurance gets treated anyway and the hospital makes the rest of us pay for it."

    You`re paying for it anyways in your premiums at least the other way the individual who had no coverage had to repay the costs down the road. You not saving any money one way or another, the same people who have to go to the hospital still go to the hospital it just their costs are being subsidized in a different way.
  38. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:36 pm
    "Young people might not get the same diseases as older people as often but they take part in risky activities older people usually don`t."

    True, but by and large the young do not require as much to be spent on their healthcare as the old. Thats why Obamacare is using them to subsidies the old. Healthcare cost far more for older people than younger people, I don`t think anyone is disputing that fact. So forcing the young to pay steep costs for things that aren`t even medically possible just to subsidies the old is not only unfair, it is impractical given incentive of the fine vs. the high priced insurance.
  39. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:40 pm
    @Richanddead

    Glad to see that you got clarification with the author. I dont think there is anything to say yet about it failing or not until after April next year. I said it was scare tactics since the sources are private insurance companies operating within pro-corporate governance states. I probably wouldnt of called out facist as much 30-40 years ago, but I still would call them out as I see them.

    I have rheumatoid arthritis, its difficult for me to type and spell correctly all the time. I`ve spelled fascist correctly a few other times. I lost my health insurance coverage when my expenses became over a grand a month and Ive experience some loss of motion and a continual painful physical condition (which makes it difficult to hold a job) since I have not been able to receive the care I used to afford. I see nothing wrong with having the ability to see a doctor before an unknown illness causes permanent damage. Medicare for all, let those pvt. insurers go brok
  40. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:40 pm
    You ever read the Op-Ed pieces in the WSJ?
  41. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    @Richanddead

    Sigh: Your article link is behind a paywall. Where`s an Aaron Schwartz when we need one... oh, right. Crap.

    All I can read is the abstract.
  42. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:59 pm
    @llaa:
    Firstly, private insurance companies are the only one disseminating the data. Secondly, they will lose a ton of money if Obamacare doesn`t work. They have no incentives to lie. They need it to work to suckle on the government teet. And you have yet to provide a source that they are wrong! Your just calling them scare-tactics and BS, because the info doesn`t fit you particular partisan view. Seriously, give me a link that shows where the any of the information mentioned is incorrect, how are you automatically coming to such a conclusion without showing any facts to back up your statement?

    "I still would call them out as I see them"

    So back to my previous question, what about the highly liberal ones that are reporting the same thing? Do you consider them fascist too?


  43. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 5:59 pm
    "I see nothing wrong with having the ability to see a doctor before an unknown illness causes permanent damage."

    It`s the cost, its all about the cost. No one works for free, and to demand such is obviously impractical. We should have focused how to get the 30 million uninsured coverage. Not redesigning the whole system so that young people now have yet another entitlement that the baby-boomer generation will use at the expense of the younger generations and will add well over a half a trillion to the dept according to the CMS.

    "Medicare for all, let those pvt. insurers go broke"

    That is a very emotional statement but not practical at all. You can`t have something without the ability and resources to fund it. Forcing agencies to go broke is not in anyway shape or form a good way to help the people who depend on them to provide coverage.

    And I don`t care about your spelling honestly, was just saying.
  44. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm
    Actually, that`s exactly what happens when someone without health insurance gets treated anyway and the hospital makes the rest of us pay for it.

    Liberal logic:
    Calls an act of charity theft
    Supports expanding MedicAid and subsidizing insurance companies at the expense of taxpayers.
  45. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm
    @llaa: "Your article link is behind a paywall."

    WTF why am I the only one getting this stuff without subscribing? Try this link, it should not ask for any subscription.

    link

    Also editorial is an opinion piece it is not meant in any way to be impartial, I`m talking about real news not opinion perspectives. But it does account on page 1199 about the editorials in the WSJ. On page 1212 it says the news in the WSJ is still the most liberal even more than NPR or the NYT.
  46. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    @llaa

    You ever hear about a business or school getting caught using windows without buying it?
    You`re someone confused refusing to buy a product with theft. I`m not sure how you`ve managed this.

    Paul Walker is governor of a gerrymanding state this is electing officials that will protect corporate/Koch interests by decimating public and private unions by enacting laws that repelling protectionist worker rights laws
    How so? What specifically has he done that you believe to be fascist? This whole blurb sounds lovely and fun, but it lacks any specifics regarding the laws he`s signed and those he`s tried to repeal.

    Sorry to hear you lost your useless insurance.
    My HDHP was fantastic. I never had an issue with it. I`m curious how you`ve come to the conclusion that it was useless.
  47. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 6:29 pm
    @lauriloo

    Having health insurance hurts people? News to me.
    Oh I just can`t resist targeting your willful ignorance. This is what you said:

    "That`s why the penalty to not having insurance should be higher than having the cheapest insurance available OR now we should have it that if you don`t have insurance"

    The "hurtful" part here is the part where you increase the fines until your victim finally caves.

    You brush your teeth or I`ll give you a stern lecture. (didn`t work)
    You brush your teeth or I`ll give you a smack on the wrist. (still didn`t work)
    You brush your teeth or I`ll punch you in the face. (still no?)
    OK. You brush your teeth or I`ll cut out your tongue.

    By your previous reasoning, you look at this and say that brushing your teeth is good for you? I bet you think no-knock warrants are to protect police officers too.
  48. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 7:07 pm
    @richanddead
    No, 2 private insurance companies reported the limited data for the article posted. My argument is that insurance companies are already being subsidized under the new ACA rules. The article is PR for when private insurers will request for an increase in either govt. subsidized payment or end user premium rate increases. Hence my statement on scare tactics a common PR tactic. This is not liberal but center article

    BTW, that article is from 2005 before Murdoch bought the paper and before the economy tanked. Things are much different these days than 8 years ago. Heck, the citations in the article are from a range of 1993-2002!!

  49. Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 7:15 pm
    @HumanAction - HDHP are useless since the average single payer deductable for 2013 is $6,250. Most likely a healthy person would not go beyond that amount unless there was an accident. Nice thing is that you wouldnt have to pay the higher no insurance costs when you see the doctor that is in that health network. The hidden cost is that once you reach your deductable, the benefits are not much. Expensive formulary co-payments, limited lifetime maximum benefits, incremental coverage for approved procedures, lack of covered procedures, etc... After you tally in your costs and monthly premium a cash only urgent care center would cost much less. These types of problems only come after you get sick or hurt. More info on HDHP
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 7:19 pm
    Article on Walkers corporatist maneuvers
  • Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 7:41 pm
    How am I wrong in my assessment that they are run by fascists?
    @llaa: #1 It`s a Federal Program, the individual States LITERALLY have nothing to do with it! Except implementation.
    #2 Your bigoted stereotyping is appalling. Even for a liberal.

    Name one piece of software that cost $500,000,000+, had 2+ years of development, and still doesn`t work for (at least!) 8 weeks after launching.

    Having health insurance hurts people? News to me.

    @lauriloo: If you`ve no defense? Why not just admit it?
    What do you think happens to you if you refuse to pay the fine/tax? Hummm?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 7:59 pm
    Nothings bigoted about knowing locations and history. Why dont you research for yourself how many multi-national corporations and bankers call CT home.

    What have I said about Scott Walker as being corporatist is bigoted? He totally loves ayn rand and
    libertarianism.

    Anyway what kind of Conadian are you 5cats? Do you think its bad if I call Rob Ford a crack smoking alcoholic, eh?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 8:09 pm
    Here`s an article stating what it cost to develop Linux Fedora 9. Link

    Juicy Quote from the article - "The result is just over $8 billion to develop Fedora 9 in year 2000 costs."

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 9:26 pm
    @llaa

    Right off the bat, you lied. The absolute MAX deductible for an individual in 2013 is $3250 - total. This is mandated by the IRS.

    My plan was $2000 at which point it moves into an HMO-like status where additional procedures have a 20% deductible. On the flip side, I can pay for all of this using a tax-free dollars in an HSA. For someone who is self-employed, that`s a big savings.

    Oh, and I never pay for preventative care - not even a copay. I can walk into the doctors office twelve times a year and never pay a cent for it.

    The only time we ever even reached our ceiling was one year with 2 MRI`s and some extra screening tests for the missus. Guess what? No hidden fees. We paid (from our HSA) the deductible and then 20% on the things past that.

    Oh, and it was less than 1/6 the price of the lowest HMO we could find.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 9:29 pm
    @llaa

    As for your article on Walker, how is that any different than all other state legislatures? How and the tactics he employed fundamentally different than those employed by the Senate to force the ACA through?

    There is nothing here that distinguishes him and uniquely (<--- Key Word Alert) corporatist or fascist.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 10:18 pm
    @HumanAction

    I`m not a liar, you just misunderstood the IRS link.

    The amounts you`ve listed are for Annual Limitation, meaning the maximum amounts per year that the insurance will pay out after you`ve exceeded your co-pays and deductible. That means after you paid out your maximum deductible of $6,250, your insurance company would only have to pay $3,250 so after paying $9,500.00 any other costs would be covered by yourself or supplementary insurance. That`s not much coverage if your also ripped off by your insurance providers approved doctors or hospital. Hospitals bills can be extreme in the USA, that`s what the ACA is ending with its higher standards. Not have you conned and in the poorhouse with ineffective insurance after one accident fall, car accident,etc. If you think the payout of $3,250 is dandy, ask yourself how long have you been paying your low premium without needing your insurance and you think you`d gain the advantage on the difference spent?
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 10:32 pm
    @HumanAction

    This was Walker`s campaign platform for governor 2010.

    "As part of his campaign platform, Walker said he would create 250,000 jobs in his first term through a program that would include tax cuts for small businesses, capital gains tax cuts, and income tax cuts for the highest-earning Wisconsinites. He proposed cutting state employee wages and benefits to help pay for these tax cuts.

    Social issues played a part in the campaign. Walker has stated that he is "100% pro-life" and that he believes life should be protected from conception to natural death. He opposes abortion, including in cases of rape and incest. He supports abstinence-only sex education in the public schools..."

    That forced morality bit at the end is news to me... scary dude.
  • Profile photo of JadesDitoyr
    JadesDitoyr Male 18-29
    841 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 11:02 pm
    @llaa

    ACA doesn`t do anything to alter the cost of hospital visits, or cap costs in any way. ACA does not do anything about the cost of health care, all it does is impact Health Care Insurance.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 7, 2013 at 11:28 pm
    @JadesDitoyr

    The ACA will and does lower medical costs. Similar to how Medicaid keeps their costs low, the state and federal exchanges set their prices with the care providers. By weakening the current monopoly of health insurance companies, the exchanges should get better prices due to the volume of individuals on the plan. i.e. I can get a better price on medical items and procedures if I`m buying 50,000 at a time rather than one.

    That`s why Im waiting till next year to see if it works or not in practice and if the exchanges pay medical providers in due time. Insurance claims are the biggest cost hurdle facing doctors today, I mean a doctor either has to become a medical biller or hire a few to get paid, and sometimes they can wait a long time to be paid.

    Im sure it needs some fine tuning but I`d rather have a single payer system. Imagine the cost when your buying millions at a time and you pay doctors and hospitals on time.
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4087 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 5:11 am
    Dunno why the U.S. simply doesn`t go single payer.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:09 am
    @llaa

    The amounts you`ve listed are for Annual Limitation, meaning the maximum amounts per year that the insurance will pay out after you`ve exceeded your co-pays and deductible.
    Actually, we both misread it. The $3250 is the max contribution to an HSA each year. I don`t know where you came up with the idea that it was the max payout.

    This is how an HDHP works: you pay 100% of the costs up to a certain amount. According to the IRS website that amount is between $1250 and $6250. After that, it is EXACTLY like an HMO. I pay a percentage of the coverage (20% in my case) and they cover the rest.

    This is how it works. There is no maximum amount that they are willing to cover.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:14 am
    @llaa

    He proposed cutting state employee wages and benefits to help pay for these tax cuts.
    So, you would have me believe that either cutting taxes or cutting public compensation is fascist? I`m not convinced you actually understand fascism.

    That forced morality bit at the end is news to me... scary dude.
    They`re his personal beliefs; he hasn`t proposed any laws regarding this as far as I`m aware. According to you then, not passing laws that support your own personal beliefs is fascist? I`m not understanding your reasoning here.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:38 am
    @llaa: "The article is PR for when private insurers will request for an increase in either govt. subsidized payment or end user premium rate increases."

    Again, that is your opinion, you have not cited one article that says any of the information in the post was incorrect. You are dismissing it solely on the grounds that that you dislike insurance company practices, thats not proof, thats not anything.
    I read your article from beginning to end. I would disagree, your link is very liberal, I know Margaret Flowers she lives in my city and she is a lobbyist for single payer system. She is very very very liberal.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:39 am
    (cont)

    She organised Occupy Baltimore and Occupy DC and often appears with and cited by people like Michael Moore and his ilk. The only reason she is talking about how bad Obamacare is, is because she wants a single payer system, which is even more unpopular and worse for America than Obamacare.

    From what I read she admits to all the shortcomings of obamacare including the outrageous premiums for all people especially the young among other things and then bashes Insurance companies for not taking all risks in all areas. She says that because insurance companies will not constantly take a losses until they go under that they are gaming the system.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:40 am
    (cont)
    Congress was the one who gave them these abilities because if they didn`t insurance companies wouldn`t enter period. They would become insolvent, would lose their companies, and would become liable to thousands of lawsuits if they entered without calculating the risk.
    As I said before that would help no one, and hurt us all. It is very likely that it would even put us back into a recession. The federal government would have to pick up the tab and bail them out and people would be screaming about them like they did the "predatory loans."
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4087 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:41 am
    in other news the GOP controlled House passed a bill that repeals most of the restrictions put in place on financial institutions that caused the financial crisis. Law written by and for Lobbyist. I-A-B Conservatives quiet about that vocal about healthcare for all even though I admit there are definitely issues with the ACA. Love the priorities. <3
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:41 am
    (cont)

    But no I don`t find anything you said there to be true or cited, except the part where you state what your argument is. But not even your source, biased as it is, refutes this article or supports what you claimed; "The article is PR for when private insurers will request for an increase in either govt. subsidized payment or end user premium rate increases." In fact, no where does it state that the Insurers are manipulating numbers or fomenting PR for more subsides, it simply say they got over a trillion dollars in subsidies because of how Obamacare is already written.
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4087 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:47 am
    How is a Single payer system that bad? I spend half a year in London, CA for work. When I go hunting/fishing or do anything outdoors I have nothing to worry about. In fact I`ve broken my foot Off roading, had bruised ribs, been in an accident. My medical bills in Canada are ZERO ZILCH NADA. Now I realize I`m taxed more but honestly it`s not that big of a difference. You pay more in "sin tax". Since I`m a relatively boring individual this affects me little. It indirectly targets the people that will most likely need healthcare in their older years. The system pays for itself from what I can tell.

    The best part is you can still get your own doctor or if you don`t like the care you have options. It`s just basic Healthcare is guaranteed . I`m sorry but after spending considerable amounts of the past 15 years in both countries I don`t see why we fuss over single payer so much.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 6:55 am
    @normalfreak

    in other news the GOP controlled House passed a bill that repeals most of the restrictions put in place on financial institutions that caused the financial crisis.
    By "institutions that caused the financial crisis" are you referencing the federal government? After all, essentially every objective source blames the government (and fed) for the recession.

    How is a Single payer system that bad?
    In which aspect? Obviously there`s the Constitutionality of it. Otherwise, it`s expensive. Now I know that the US has a more expensive system; however, the top ten most expensive nations in terms of healthcare/capita use third-party payer (which includes single payer) health insurance schemes. That`s a very good indication that such systems are very expensive.

    Better to go with either free market or subsidized pay-per-service (Hong Kong).

  • Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33142 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 7:41 am
    Do you think its bad if I call Rob Ford a crack smoking alcoholic, eh?
    @llaa: Why would I care? He`s over 1,000 miles away! America is 60 miles away. YOU do the math!

    If you think "name calling" is a valid form of argument? Well that`s very liberal of you...

    Is "Linux Fedora 9" a WEBSITE? Apples and Orangutans dude... I obviously "misspoke" when I included all software :-P
    And anyhow: did Fedora-9 work within the first 60 days?? Yes or no?
    Were people forced BY LAW to buy Fedora-9?

    & etc.

    Lowering taxes = fascism? Oy vey!
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 8:24 am
    @normalfreak2: I could go on and on, but to not go on a 15-20 post rant let me just give the main points, ok. If you want more detail to any of them then I up for providing details. Yet I do need to go to the park with my dogs later so I might take a few seconds to answer.

    1. While everyone would have healthcare, it limits the access to it via waiting lists to surgeries and diagnostic procedures and by even canceling surgeries. And people even die on these waiting lists waiting for important surgeries. Canada, Britain, Sweden, ect. all have this effect with their systems. In this study from where you were link they found 21% of people on the waiting list for lung cancer treatment become incurable and die. I can show other studies if you`re from somewhere else but I don`t want to ramble too much here.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 8:24 am
    2. The costs are extreme, especially with our legal system that makes doctors take tons of tests for unlikely ailments just to cover themselves against lawsuits. Aswell despite that they are the ones paying for it in their taxes. People perceive that others are paying for their treatments. When people perceive that someone else is paying for something, they tend to overuse it, adding to the expense and wait times. This only increase with the population and Since America is the 3rd most populated country on earth, it exaggerates these effects.

    3. The quality of healthcare would go down. To simplify simply look at the public schools and how they are run in comparison to private ones. Yet if you want me expand on this or provide a link to a study in one the single payer countries that shows this, I definitely can if you want. I have one from London in fact.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 8:25 am
    4. It also rations the type of treatment. In a single payer system to limit costs from overcare from a government funded fee-for-service basis. Physicians would need to compare the use of tests and procedures to their peers with similar patients. Therefore medical decisions would need to fall into a regimented pattern as well as within a spending target. And if you`ve ever tried a drug that works on you but not your friend you can understand, in principle anyway, why that is bad.

    5. Although medical research would not disappear entirely, it would certainly be reduced. The U.S. Commerce Department found that drug price controls in other single-payer nations reduced annual investment in pharmaceuticals by $5-8 billion, resulting in 3 to 4 fewer drugs being launched each year. Again more studies if you want them.
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 8:27 am
    Also most single-payer systems have huge expensive bureaucracies that delay the approval of new drugs, preventing patients from using them. Alice Mahon, the former member of the British parliament is a good example of this. She had macular degeneration and although the drug to treat it "Lucentis" was available in other countries, yet the "NICE" a division of the British National Health Service had not yet approved it and by the time they finally did she had lost most of her vision, so she sued, creating more costs.

    6. It not only creates a welfare state but also an American socialism. Which triggers a whole other debate.

    But I will agree that the single payer system is the point of Obamacare as Harry Reid already said.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:30 pm
    oh vey, too many responses cant... handle... the... time spent...responding... will try anyway...

    @humanAction - Check out this link, it will explain again what Annual Limitations Are
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:34 pm
    @RichandDead

    I dont know what a liberal is anymore. The way you use the word its like a dirty word. I think its a very meaningless word the way its used these days. If Barak Obama is a liberal to you then liberalism has been eaten alive by television media new speak.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:44 pm
    5cats - Software like Fedora worked when it came out but it wasn`t perfect.

    Check out how many patches were made to the os.

    "f9 has 9151 patches in 5547 src rpms
    1.64972056967730304669 patches per srpm"

    link

    Looks like 9000+ reasons that parts of the software were not working as intended or needed o be corrected. I say, dont believe the hype and wait till April next year to jump in the "it ain`t working" peanuts gallery.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:45 pm
    @llaa

    From United Healthcare:

    "With a high deductible health plan (HDHP), you pay monthly premiums as you would with a traditional health plan. Covered preventive care services may be paid up to 100 percent. When you need medical care or prescriptions, you will pay the actual cost of those services out of your pocket until you have paid up to your deductible. With an HDHP, you have more control over how your money is spent.

    After you reach your deductible, the plan will pay most of your costs, usually as a larger percentage. This is called coinsurance. For example, a plan will pay 80 percent of the cost of a bill and you will pay the remaining 20 percent.

    An HDHP will also protect you with an annual limit on what you would pay out of your pocket. This protection is called the out-of-pocket maximum. The out-of-pocket maximum includes your deductible payments and coinsurance payments."
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:50 pm
    @llaa

    From FiscalFizzle:

    "The main difference with HDHPs is that most costs, up to your deductible, are covered by you out of pocket. There are no doctor "co-pays" like with a traditional plan. Once you reach your deductible, however, all valid costs are completely covered.

    HDHPs are therefore a form of "catastrophic insurance," where day-to-day costs are covered by you, and the insurance plan kicks in when something major occurs ("major" being anything over your deductible limit)."

    I can keep doing this. You`re simply wrong about how an HDHP works. I`ve used it for years and this is how it works.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:52 pm
    richanddead

    n 2008, bevacizumab cost Medicare only $20 million for about 480,000 injections, while ranibizumab (Lucentis) cost Medicare $537 million for only 337,000 injections.[7"> A small study showed no superior effect of ranibizumab versus bevacizumab in direct comparison. See the New England Journal Article showing that both are efficient. I dont blame the British for not using the drug its expensive and just as efficient as a generic cheaper drug.



    NEJM Study Results
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 12:53 pm
    @HumanAction

    If you say so...
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 1:39 pm
    @llaa: Again, you have yet to give me any links to back up what you claimed about the information in the article being wrong.


    "If Barak Obama is a liberal to you then liberalism has been eaten alive by television media new speak."



    Ah, ok, so you see him as a conservative then? you see Barack Obama a self described liberal democrat, as a conservative? WHAT!?

    And as far as the drug trials are concerned, the same drug doesn`t work equally for all people ever. Even certain people are allergic to penicillin.
    But yes, you`re still making my point for me that the variety of drugs a doctor could use was to treat an ailment was limited because state needing to focus more on the money than the patient.
    It isn`t the patient and doctor creating the treatment plan it is the state and their budget.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 1:58 pm
    If you say so...
  • Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3523 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 5:14 pm
    Oh, indeed I do.
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    November 8, 2013 at 9:45 pm
    I just heard that only 18% of the uninsured, the ones who Obamacare was purported to help, have even gone onto the website -- less than the number that don`t even know Obamacare exists.

    Most of the traffic to the web site is from people whose current health insurance has been cancelled, and the VAST majority of them are finding higher premiums, higher deductibles, higher out-of-pocket costs, fewer choices of doctors and hospitals, and no coverage at all when traveling outside of their local area.

    On the upside, the new Obamacare plans DO cover, abortions, contraception, drug and alcohol rehabilitation, sex changes, fertility treatments, and maternity care for men and seniors, in addition to acupuncture, homeopathy, naturopathy, reiki (whatever the hell that is), energy healing, meditation, and other forms of "alternative" quackery.

    We should tell Obama, "If you like your balls, you can keep your balls -- PERIOD!" (wink, wink) ;-)
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 9, 2013 at 12:25 am
    @OldOllie

    A bunch of half truths and falsehoods!

    One, the ACA does not cover abortions, sex changes, IVF Fertility treatments, and quakery. However, there is a provision that could be used as a wedge for alternative medicine, but the insurance providers are able to choose their networked doctors so that is not a big issue. There is legislation in the works to remove it, but I don`t think that is necessary.

    Alt Medicine:PHS Sec.2706AbortionFertility Treatments
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 9, 2013 at 12:27 am
    "DaddyDayCare`- Info
  • Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    November 9, 2013 at 1:34 pm
    @llaa, my third paragraph was a troll -- an exaggeration to illustrate the fact that the ACA actually does force people to buy coverage for things that they neither need or want.

    I`m glad that you agree with the rest of what I said, though.
  • Profile photo of llaa
    llaa Male 30-39
    1664 posts
    November 9, 2013 at 1:52 pm
    @OldOllie

    Yes, I do agree with your second paragraph. I saw the same concerns pop up with Medicare doctors when Part D coverage came into effect. A lot of seniors saw doctors leave the plan in the earlier stages. I believe these things do sort out as it becomes easier for a medical practitioner to bill and be paid for their services. People do have coverage, just maybe not what they expected at first, but I say give it time to sort out the kinks.
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