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Date: 10/02/13 05:13 PM

96 Responses to Here`s Something We Should Talk About [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of Cy
    Cy Male 18-29
    870 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 5:18 pm
    Link: Here`s Something We Should Talk About - But we aren`t.
  2. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36660 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    Nothing to talk about. We pay it or we die. They have over a casket... I mean barrel.
  3. Profile photo of Keyh
    Keyh Male 18-29
    226 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:00 pm
    That`s thanks to:

    http://tinyurl.com/ycrdyak

    and ridiculously high bureaucratic/administrative costs.
  4. Profile photo of Runemang
    Runemang Male 30-39
    2676 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:03 pm
    caskets aren`t cheap either.

    Best hope is to try to be a burden on others instead. :)
  5. Profile photo of skypirate
    skypirate Male 18-29
    2402 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:12 pm
    Ya, but I dont spend as much on taxes so...
  6. Profile photo of IRockYeah
    IRockYeah Male 40-49
    2619 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:21 pm
    For me, being a Brit, all of those are free. Gotta love the NHS.
  7. Profile photo of Afugy
    Afugy Male 30-39
    199 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:30 pm
    @Keyh, You think so, I don`t, I think it`s because their government run health care can make companies bit for contracts and the government goes with the lowest bitter that meets standards. The US government spends more on health care per cap then the countries with government run health care.
  8. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 6:58 pm
    Healthcare should not be a for profit business. Period. That is all.
  9. Profile photo of Rodin
    Rodin Male 30-39
    712 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 7:51 pm
    There was a guy in my neighbourhood that just got arrested for giving free colonoscopies without a license.
  10. Profile photo of MrJB
    MrJB Male 18-29
    64 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:15 pm
    America doesn`t understand that, for how much we pay, we get no where near the same amount of care as other countries. It`s not about us paying less and getting less, we`re paying just as much (if not more) and getting less.
  11. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:31 pm
    For me, being a Brit, all of those are free. Gotta love the NHS.
    It isn`t free; it`s expensive as hell. You just don`t see the bill unless you pay taxes. Plus, the quality of care to which you have resigned yourselves totally SUCKS ASS.
  12. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14621 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:36 pm
    At Hong Kong`s excellent government hospitals*:

    Angiogram $12
    Colonoscopy $12
    Hip Replacement $12
    Lipitor $12
    MRI $12

    *Non residents pay more. Poor residents pay less/ nothing.
  13. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1107 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:51 pm
    Absolutely nothing wrong with our quality of care.. Dislocated my ankle the other day, first come first serve basis, 6 x rays, 18 hours of hospital bed, 4 doctors like 10+ interns, a `comfort representative`, they may not have given me a tensor bandage but after all that I dont mind paying for something out of pocket.
  14. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:54 pm
    Doctors want to be rich.Hospitals want money.And republicans think you should die if you can`t afford healthcare.
  15. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 8:57 pm
    Atorvastatin, aka Lipitor doesn`t cost $124. The generics for this medicine are around 50 cents a pill now, $15 a month. Even if you don`t have insurance, several pharmacies are offering it and other competing statin drugs for $4 or less per month.
  16. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:10 pm
    "Healthcare should not be a for profit business."

    I work in the healthcare field (psychologist). Do you think you could call the people that I owe student loans to and tell them that? Also, can you please pay my other bills?

    Asshat.
  17. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:11 pm
    "And republicans think you should die if you can`t afford healthcare."

    Bullsh|t. I am a republican, and I provide free services to those who cannot pay. Guess what though: Now that they can get `bama care, I will be charging out the ass.
  18. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:13 pm
    "It isn`t free; it`s expensive as hell."

    Damn skippy. For me to "break even" I have to charge around 86 an hour for talk therapy.
  19. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:14 pm
    Healthcare should not be a for profit business. Period. That is all.
    So, would you be willing to invest your 401k in hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, and medical device manufacturers knowing that you can never get a positive return (i.e., a PROFIT) on your investment, but you still risk losing it all?

    If not, then STFU, ya dumb commie.
  20. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:21 pm
    HG: "Healthcare should not be a for profit business. Period. That is all."

    Spoken like a true socialist. Profit is evil, capitalism is bad.

    I wouldn`t be surprised if you wear a red "Che" t-shirt, skinny jeans with rolled up cuffs and sandals with socks. Possibly with a bandana around your neck.
  21. Profile photo of LemonCurry
    LemonCurry Male 40-49
    1106 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:46 pm
    "Profit is evil, capitalism is bad."
    --------
    yes, agreed.
  22. Profile photo of LemonCurry
    LemonCurry Male 40-49
    1106 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:47 pm
    "I wouldn`t be surprised if you wear a red "Che" t-shirt, skinny jeans with rolled up cuffs and sandals with socks."
    --------------
    what`s wrong with sandals `n` socks? the romans wore them, and they were no socialists.
  23. Profile photo of DinVen
    DinVen Male 30-39
    390 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 9:51 pm
    The freedom to pay more, congrats.
  24. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    October 2, 2013 at 11:35 pm
    Socialism is bad = Jesus Christ is bad

    But I don`t expect most Christian Republicans to get that, or to care.
  25. Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2348 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:04 am
    Here is the real source of the problem...financing. Education is financed, medical equipment and facilities are financed, and finally health care expenses are financed. If everyone paid for things outright the true value/cost would be realized. The free market would stabilize. Think of it like automobiles. There is no way a pickup truck is worth $40k+. The unions are weak and there is so much automation used to build cars today that the labor expense is minimal. Materials are now produced outside the country for incredibly low prices. Vehicles are expensive because it`s all about how much payment you can afford. Citizens willingness to take on debt and inability to choose good elected officials has created the country I live in today.
  26. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:12 am
    SmagBoy: Jesus told us to help one another. NOT create an elitist socialist state government. Nowhere in the Bible does it command the government to take money from its citizens and transfer it to poor people.

    The bible states 3 ways to help the poor and needy, through the family, through the church and individual charity.

    I could Bible thump and give chapters and verses, to prove my point, but it`s late and I need sleep.
  27. Profile photo of Geogypsy
    Geogypsy Female 18-29
    2546 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 1:03 am
    I was shocked upon reading that the doctor attempted to get a price quote for various procedures with no success. That`s madness.
  28. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7738 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 1:17 am
    OldOllie- It isn`t free; it`s expensive as hell. You just don`t see the bill unless you pay taxes. Plus, the quality of care to which you have resigned yourselves totally SUCKS ASS.

    No, free is the word I would use too. My brother has just had a hip operation and his care was just fine, free as well.
  29. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:22 am
    CrakrJak, I`m pretty sure that Jesus said to render unto Ceasar. And calling it an "elitist socialist state government" doesn`t make it so.
  30. Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:43 am
    If the richest nation on the planet can`t and doesn`t care for it`s own citizens then it doesn`t deserve to call itself "Great".
  31. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:59 am
    @OldOllie

    "Plus, the quality of care to which you have resigned yourselves totally SUCKS ASS."

    *looks at your location*
    *sees "Midwest US"*

    Wow. You`re so perfectly placed to know what it`s like to live with our healthcare system.

    *rolls eyes*
  32. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:04 am
    Can people on both sides of the debate stop calling it "free healthcare" when the more accurate term is "free at the point of use"?

    It still gets paid for, but the costs are spread out and covered by those who can pay, rather than those who need it.

    For those who cry socialism: you`re all fine with that exact same process funding the police, the courts of law, the roads, the parks, the government...pretty much the entire structure of your society.

    There`s no good reason why healthcare can`t be shifted into that same catagory. Much of the rest of the world does it.
  33. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:32 am
    And ultimately, a system that fights you to get healthy and working and earning and paying taxes as cheaply and as quickly as possible is surely better for the economy than a system that profits from you staying sick.
  34. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 4:20 am
    Musuko42:
    "For those who cry socialism: you`re all fine with that exact same process funding the police, the courts of law, the roads, the parks, the government...pretty much the entire structure of your society.

    There`s no good reason why healthcare can`t be shifted into that same catagory. Much of the rest of the world does it."
    ---------

    This.
  35. Profile photo of demarc01
    demarc01 Male 40-49
    3 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 4:28 am
    Born in the UK, the NHS is not perfect but over all I had no real issues. Sure you wait your turn and in some cases that could be months for a non-life threatening op, but you got it. People also fail to realize that we do have private health care in the UK which you can opt into as well. So you have CHOICE.

    I`ve lived in the US for 13 years now, me and my wife pay insurance premiums and to be fair they are more than what I`d pay on NI (National Insurance - An additional tax) in the UK, but you live with it.

    Recently my wife had full Hip replacement, getting a bill for $130,000 was a bit of a shocker I can tell you, but insurance paid most of it, Our yearly max was met and we were held for only a small amount (Around $5000)

    The kill is Co-pays. Insurance does not cover co-pays, so anything they list as a *co-pay* we are 100% accountable for, trust me when I say that those co-pays can run into $1000`s of dollars. Her PT co-pays were terrible ....

    The
  36. Profile photo of demarc01
    demarc01 Male 40-49
    3 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 4:33 am
    The bottom line is, we pay more for care here for the same basic service. Monthly payments are more (NI vs Insurance payments) and the point of service fee`s here are killer.

    Don`t be misled, there are point of service fee`s in the UK for scripts etc, its not 100% covered and *free* as some would have you believe. Its just a damm sight cheaper than the US b/c the health service is a gov. thing and they negotiate prices.

    Any given company want the contract to supply *all* hips for replacement surgery in the UK, so yes they are motivated to reach a better price point. Over here its an individual negotiation, you have no buying power.

    It`ll get worse before it gets better. Just hope our insurance stays reasonable, since the wife needs a knee replacement next year /sigh.
  37. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7738 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 6:42 am
    So if you (Americans) don`t have money or can afford insurance what happens?
    Not being flippant, I really don`t know.
    Surely if you suffer something serious you`re not just ignored are you?
  38. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 6:57 am
    SmagBoy: Matthew 25, Proverbs 10:4, Proverbs 14:23 among others.

    You`re confusing taxes with socialism and possibly Jesus` individual charity with socialism. Either way, saying that Jesus was a socialist is completely wrong.
  39. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 6:59 am
    @drawman61

    From what I understand, they aren`t refused treatment if it`s something serious, but then end up in debt with the bill and likely have to file for bankruptcy.

    I remember reading that 50% of all bankruptcies in the US involve medical debt. I have no idea if that is still true.
  40. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 7:13 am
    @musuko

    I remember reading that 50% of all bankruptcies in the US involve medical debt.
    I believe it`s higher than that - 62% rings a bell.

    The problem is that a large number of those people who go under actually have/had insurance; they aren`t all uninsured. Expanding this system will simply further legalize this extortion.

    The US system, and Obamacare`s extension of, are the worst possible situations. A single-party payer, like NHS, would at least leverage the collective "weight" of the country to keep prices low. However, they would still suffer from the inescapable insurance bubble that all single-payer systems suffer from.

    Look at the top 10 most expensive healthcare/capita countries. All use insurance systems.

    Now look at Hong Kong, who uses a subsidized pay-per-service model. If we really want to do national healthcare, then that is the best way.
  41. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 7:14 am
    @musuko

    Mind you, until a Constitutional Amendment comes around that authorizes Congress to levy taxes for healthcare, I will oppose national healthcare.

    That`s an entirely different discussion though.
  42. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 7:17 am
    Can we compare wait times, death rates, morbidity? Of course not, that wouldn`t fit the template.

    Other things to consider: malpractice insurance due to lack of laws against malpractice lawsuits, which many other countries do have. And the insurance regulations put in place by Democrats, mandating that men have to have insurance for ovarian cancer, for example, or that we can`t shop across state lines. And finally, Obamacare, which has increased costs by 70% in the last two years.
  43. Profile photo of handimanner
    handimanner Male 60-69
    2095 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 8:25 am
    Prices in this country are mandated by "the highest payer", so if the rich can afford a certain price then that product is priced at that point and the poor can be damned. The affluence of the 1% therefore dictates what prices are. It has nothing to do with Obama and anyone using this argument to bash this administration is a fool. Deregulation, begun under Reagan and escalated under the Bushs - but also affected by NAFTA, and the dot-com profits of the 90s under Clinton - have been the biggest bugaboos.
    As usual, Republi-tards will use any argument - like a bad parrot - to advance their skewed ideology.
  44. Profile photo of Oystah
    Oystah Female 40-49
    4032 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 9:03 am
    I`ve transcribed probably over 2,500 bankruptcies and not one of them was due to medical bills. Just saying for percentage-wise, not that it doesn`t happen. They were mostly for gambling and business failures.
  45. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    349 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 9:50 am
    Do these prices include the taxes people have to pay to support the state-managed medical care? If not, then they`re completely meaningless.
  46. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 10:03 am
    @AntEconomist

    I imagine those prices are what the state pays for those treatments, compared to what whoever (patient/insurance/state) is paying for it in America.

    It is saying that, for whatever reason (state able to bargain better prices, hospitals not taking a profit margain, etc), it is cheaper to pay for your healthcare via taxes than it is to pay for it via insurance and/or direct from your pocket.
  47. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 10:07 am
    A thought. Compare:

    Healthcare as a product provided by a company: the incentive is to make it as expensive as they can get away with, to increase profit.

    Healthcare as an expense suffered by the state: the incentive is to make it as cheap as they can get away with it, to reduce the budget outgoing.
  48. Profile photo of Squrlz4Sale
    Squrlz4Sale Male 40-49
    6230 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 10:48 am
    ~presents the Golden Hazelnut Award to Musuko for generally awesome comments in this thread~
  49. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:20 am
    Crakr

    "Spoken like a true socialist. Profit is evil, capitalism is bad."

    Says the person who lives off socialism to the person who lives off capitalism.

    I LOVE capitalism. I LOVE it. There is almost nothing I enjoy more than planning a new business and figuring out how it can make the most money. I have dozens of business plans. It is my hobby.

    However I don`t think profit should be the number one factor in ALL decisions. I don`t think whether or not a person receives medical care should receive a cost / benefit analysis.

    I also don`t think education should be for profit, or safety, or defense.

    I don`t mean their shouldn`t be for profit OPTIONS that provide a better level of service if you are willing to pay.

    Think of it like the post office vs. fedex.
  50. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:28 am
    Things that are "socialism" in america:

    public education
    police
    military
    firemen
    roads
    parks
    social security
    medicare
    libraries
    postal service
    penal / court system
    unemployment insurance
    public transportation
    ETC ETC ETC

    Why is it that you "socialism is evil" morons don`t rail against that stuff?

    Just PBS and healthcare?

    Is it MAYBE because rich people, insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies pay BILLIONS of dollars to lobbyists, politicians, and pundits to fill your little brains with the idea that sick people getting affordable or free healthcare basically makes us communist russia?
  51. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:40 am
    Is it MAYBE because rich people, insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies pay BILLIONS of dollars to lobbyists, politicians, and pundits to fill your little brains with the idea that sick people getting affordable or free healthcare basically makes us communist russia?

    Ummmm doesn`t Obamacare basically force you to pay an insurance company via a tax because they can`t make you buy a product legally.... ya that seems on the up and up.....
  52. Profile photo of spanerbulb
    spanerbulb Male 30-39
    1244 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:40 am
    Well duh, healthcare in the US is a profit making exercise, nothing more. Many diseases can be cured very easily but why would the healthcare companies want that? Better to keep people sick, consuming and profitable.
  53. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:47 am
    McGovern1981

    "Ummmm doesn`t Obamacare basically force you to pay an insurance company via a tax because they can`t make you buy a product legally.... ya that seems on the up and up....."

    1. I don`t particularly LIKE obamacare. I accept it as a step in the right direction that is better than nothing.

    2. We would have had single payer if it wasn`t for republican opposition. Hell we probably would have had it under clinton.

    3. Insurance companies HATE obamacare because it has a provision that limits the amount a company can spend on overhead to 20% and it will create a competitive marketplace which will drive insurance costs down.
  54. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:59 am
    Well duh, healthcare in the US is a profit making exercise, nothing more. Many diseases can be cured very easily but why would the healthcare companies want that? Better to keep people sick, consuming and profitable.

    So your super awesome system has cure AIDs and cancer then?? Stop holding out on us!!
  55. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:02 pm
    3. Insurance companies HATE obamacare because it has a provision that limits the amount a company can spend on overhead to 20% and it will create a competitive marketplace which will drive insurance costs down.

    Until they get together like oil companies and say hey if we work together we can really f uck people over and they have to buy it!! That is assuming they haven`t already....
  56. Profile photo of jfactor
    jfactor Male 18-29
    149 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    What this fails to mention is universal healthcare is a total fail. Whether you`re covered by the government healthcare or you bought private insurance, and you need to see a specialist, you`re going to be waiting a long time. That`s how it goes in countries with universal healthcare and it`s why Canadians come down into the US to get medical care. It just doesn`t work and its one more step towards socialism by comrade Obama.
  57. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:16 pm
    jfactor

    Sure glad we have an american from the south that is telling canadians what they think about their healthcare system. I`m sure that is an excellent opinion born out of research, experience, and facts.
  58. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:33 pm
    I know what I find endlessly amusing about Teapubs is their constant and universal penchant for mistaking Francis Hollande (Socialist) for Joseph Stalin (Communist). It`s like mistaking wine for vodka, just precious.

    I also eagerly await the day we have full Single Payer like everyone else, I`m so tired of being at the bass ackward end of things just because the robber barons throw a temper tantrum.
  59. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:35 pm
    HG: In other words, "Capitalism for me, Socialism for you."

    So your not just a socialist, you`re and elitist socialist. You believe that people, whom you deem, less intelligent/worthwhile than yourself, should endure 2nd class socialist citizenship, while you enjoy capitalism and all it`s rewards/freedoms.

    Sorry but that`s insidious, it`s evil, it`s pretentious nobility 2.0.
  60. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    Yeah Crackr, I know if we had the standard of living that Norway has, or Sweden or France what with their whole non staggeringly unjust levels of income inequality not seen since the 1920`s, why I`d be just crushed let me tell you. Agony, agony, oh woe and lackaday!

    I think oldsters are so full of Cold War propaganda that they imagine the above places are like `60s Ukraine or Belarus. They just can`t let the big scary Bear die.
  61. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 12:53 pm
    Crakr

    "In other words, "Capitalism for me, Socialism for you."

    Not sure what you mean. I mean that a public education system should exist free of charge for any child. We should ensure that it is the best it can possibly be and meet the standards we set for education. However, I believe private schools should exist as well that offer above and beyond amenities for those that want to pay for it.

    I believe the same for healthcare. That doesn`t mean the healthcare itself should be sub par, but you don`t get fancy hospital lobbies, or private rooms, or gourmet hospital food. If you`d like to pay for it you can go to a fancy hospital with those amenities.

    How is that "insidious, it`s evil, it`s pretentious nobility 2.0."?
  62. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 1:04 pm
    Crakr

    Since it is somewhat relevant to the discussion, do you have health insurance? If so, who provides it?
  63. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4348 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 1:57 pm
    the thing is in NZ, we dont pay for anything. Oh, perscriptions, they cost 5 bucks. We pay tax, and we get free healthcare, no insurance companies involved. Socailism is not all bad, you just have to get out of the capatalist mindset to understand that helping people less fortunate than yourselves is a good thing.
  64. Profile photo of Essersmith
    Essersmith Male 18-29
    275 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:16 pm
    "... whom you deem, less intelligent/worthwhile than yourself, should endure 2nd class socialist citizenship, while you enjoy capitalism and all it`s rewards/freedoms. "

    Is it really that black and white? Remember what you are supporting is everyone has to pay the same, even if they cant afford it. Why is it both universal and privat healthcare cant coexist? Like it does in all those "communist" countries.
    Its obviously unrealistic to want equal healthcare to everybody, seeing as some people will always be richer. But I cannot fathom how supporters of private healthcare only, seem to care so little for less fortunate ones.

    I guess there are people who genuinly believes that private healthcare is more fair solution.


  65. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:42 pm
    Emmettville, New Zealand isn`t Socialist. Actually, New Zealand has a freer economy than we do.

    New Zealand

    More Free

    And it`s accurate. Everyone thinks America is some unregulated Capitalist haven. But that description more resembles Canada, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and Denmark if you actually look at the data.
  66. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:48 pm
    Holygod, that`s so dumb. Firemen, policemen, parks, postal workers - how are these "Socialist". You`ve distorted the term even more than tea partiers by now.

    None of you seem to know what Socialism is. And you come up with these strawmen that if you oppose big Progressive policies, then you`re an Anarchist. And now apparently public parks are a symbol of the glory of Socialism.

    Sweden is not Socialist. Iceland is not Socialist. Denmark is not Socialist - they`re even higher on the ranking of economic freedom. Australia is not Socialist - they`re freer than us. Canada is not Socialist - they`re freer than us, too. But it`s really stupid that we keep looking to countries with 5 million people and completely different conditions as the ideal model for a country of 320 million that is megadiverse.

    Go read some books.
  67. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:54 pm
    HG: "Since it is somewhat relevant to the discussion..."

    My personal situation is not relevant to what`s good for America. Geesh, why is it you repeatedly try to make this discussion about me?

    Once again your attempt at diversion, by belittling my situation, demonstrates just how condescending and elitist you are.

    Having been the hospital twice in the past two years I can tell you from personal experiences the food was certainly not gourmet and there were no "fancy amenities". My care was decent but not opulent at all. It`s the same care everyone gets and should get.

    But what you`re promoting, with Obamacare, will lead to sub-par care for the underclass, and "fancy amenities" for your upper class.
  68. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:56 pm
    The thing is that - even under the condition that Australia and Canada healthcare is of a high standard -that doesn`t preclude Obamacare from being a really, really, really, really bad bill. And it is.
  69. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 2:57 pm
    Socailism is not all bad, you just have to get out of the capatalist mindset to understand that helping people less fortunate than yourselves is a good thing.

    Ummm in Utopia ya but come over here an take a look at people who`ve made a career out of living off the system and tell me how encouraging such a thing will work out for the people who pay to support it in the end.
  70. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:09 pm
    I just have to make this clear: Even government provision of healthcare is not Socialist - go and read Marx.

    Publicly funded industries, or industries with public subsidies, are not Socialist. The workers do not own the means of production and they do not participate in management of the operation.

    In fact, you could probably structure a publicly-funded healthcare system with more free-market price sensitivity than the current one we have, which has almost no free-market price sensitivity.

    But please, read Marx before you go and say New Zealand is Socialist. That just blew my mind that someone said one of the freest economies in the world is Socialist.
  71. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:23 pm
    Crakr

    "My personal situation is not relevant to what`s good for America."

    So the government provides your health insurance doesn`t it?

    "My care was decent but not opulent at all. It`s the same care everyone gets and should get."

    So then you want single payer insurance so every american has access to the same care you get? Awesome. I`m glad we agree.
  72. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:29 pm
    Andrew155

    "Holygod, that`s so dumb. Firemen, policemen, parks, postal workers - how are these "Socialist". You`ve distorted the term even more than tea partiers by now. "

    I`m arguing against people who use the term "socialism" that loosely.

    I said healthcare should not be a for profit business. Crakr called me a "socialist", ollie called me a commie, jfactor called it "socialism".

  73. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:33 pm
    it always amazes me that drugs and surgeries are so expensive there. It also makes me wonder why the citizens just don`t storm congress by the millions, while it`s shut down over petty reasons, and revoke all titles held by the politicians. Then while millions of people are there, sit down and find the best leaders of the country by their deeds, and usher in new government. You know, pull the knife out in one pull, instead of slowly pulling it out, finding out it hurts too much and gradually putting it back. How much more of this can they take? Downright shame, that`s what it is. Who`ll put them out of their misery of their master?
  74. Profile photo of Essersmith
    Essersmith Male 18-29
    275 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 3:45 pm
    @Andrew
    "But it`s really stupid that we keep looking to countries with 5 million people and completely different conditions as the ideal model for a country of 320 million that is megadiverse. "

    Thats the wisest thing ive read on IAB yet.
  75. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 4:02 pm
    What defines a "Freer" economy? Beyond some nebulous definition of "liberty" that is? There is no such thing as a total "free market", everyone places at least some rules on what can be bought or sold (For example we ban the buying and selling of humans), the difference is just a matter of degree.

    Socialism is the distribution of goods and services according to need instead of market value. According to that, yes every one of those countries I mentioned is indeed Socialist. Communism is the total lack of private property altogether and a total lack of obedience to any conception of Supply and Demand. You`re the one who needs to hit the books my friend.

    And incidentally, what does the size of a given nation herein have to do with the price of tea in China?
  76. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 10:42 pm
    HG: "So then you want single payer insurance so every american has access to the same care you get?"

    Now you`re just being a troll.

    No, I don`t want single payer insurance. I was referring to everyone in the hospital I went to got the same level of care.

    You on the other hand want people like me to get substandard care, while you get the "fancy amenities", because you`re an elitist socialist.
  77. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 10:53 pm
    Crakr

    "No, I don`t want single payer insurance. I was referring to everyone in the hospital I went to got the same level of care."

    So you think YOU should get healthcare provided by tax dollars with no out of pocket expense to you but OTHER people should have to pay thousands of dollars?

    "You on the other hand want people like me to get substandard care, while you get the "fancy amenities", because you`re an elitist socialist."

    No. I want everyone to get quality care, however if you want to pay extra for opulent rooms and gourmet meals that is fine. I wouldn`t. I`m not rich and i don`t waste money on superfluous (in my consideration) luxuries.
  78. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 3, 2013 at 11:20 pm
    Crakr

    Why do you get healthcare at no cost to you but I have to pay for mine? Why are you entitled but I`m not?
  79. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 5:41 am
    HG: "Why do you get healthcare at no cost to you but I have to pay for mine?"

    I`m disabled you d|psh|t, you know that. Why are you being obtuse about it? Geesh, you can`t be this ignorant and own a successful business. Therefore, I have no other conclusion than to say you`re just being a d|ckish troll right now.
  80. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 5:48 am
    @CrakrJak

    "I`m disabled you d|psh|t, you know that."

    Why should the rest of us be forced to pay for you? You should live off of charity given by willing people.

    That`s pretty much the argument you spout at us.

    Why don`t you practice what you preach?
  81. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 8:10 am
    Crakr

    "I`m disabled you d|psh|t, you know that."

    You don`t think every single person on medicaid or welfare or food stamps has an excuse for why they can`t / shouldn`t have to work and need government assistance?

    You constantly say we don`t need the government. Yet, you rely on the government for your basic survival. I just find that to be shockingly asinine.
  82. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 8:54 am
    "I said healthcare should not be a for profit business. Crakr called me a "socialist", ollie called me a commie, jfactor called it "socialism"."

    You forgot, I called you an asshat for thinking I shouldn`t make a profit.
  83. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 9:07 am
    @elkingo

    "You forgot, I called you an asshat for thinking I shouldn`t make a profit."

    Police officers and soldiers don`t make a profit. There are plenty of worthwhile jobs that make wage and salary rather than profit.

    There`s no reason why your particular industry has to be profit-making.
  84. Profile photo of Phosphoreign
    Phosphoreign Male 30-39
    308 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 9:22 am
    @Musuko42: I don`t disagree that there are many worthy not for profit things you can do, however, try not to confuse an entity that creates things / wealth at a profit, versus things like police, fire fighters, and military, which draw from taxes... they do not generate wealth... there is no "wage and salary" that magically appears, the money is taken from the profitable to pay for the services.
  85. Profile photo of Phosphoreign
    Phosphoreign Male 30-39
    308 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 9:24 am
    @HolyGod: I have to agree with you. I know some people fall on hard times and need the help, but just looking at this government shutdown, a lot of people who rely on public services will be shut out... I don`t, so it doesn`t affect me. If you rely on public services indefinitely, you will always be subject to this type of instability!
  86. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 11:26 am
    @Phosphoreign

    "try not to confuse an entity that creates things / wealth at a profit, versus things like police, fire fighters, and military, which draw from taxes... they do not generate wealth"

    To me, healthcare doesn`t generate wealth.

    If I go out and buy a TV, I feel wealthier: my life has improved from its previous condition. I have more entertainment. I am happier.

    If I go to a doctor, it`s because my normal condition has worsened, and I need the doctor to restore me to normal.

    Healthcare isn`t about improving my quality of life; it`s about restoring my existing quality of life when it worsens.

    The police, the fire service, they are just the same: they restore my existing quality of life when it worsens (through crime, fire, etc).

    That is why I believe healthcare belongs in the "maintainence" pile, paid for by taxes, rather than the "improvement" pile, paid for by my wallet.
  87. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 11:29 am
    @Phosphoreign

    Or to put it more simply: the idea that healthcare creates wealth in our society is an example of the broken window fallacy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_fallacy
  88. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:05 pm
    @Musuko42

    I went to school 6 years for my undergraduate dregrees. I graduated top of my class with a Bachelor of Science in Psychology, Religion, and History.

    After that, I went to a graduate program for Clinical Psychology where I spent 4 more years producing research, learning assessments, and learning different therapy techniques.

    This all cost me 10 years of my life, and approximately 45,000 dollars of debt.

    You seriously think I shouldn`t be profitable in making people better?

    Why the hell would ANYONE spend that sort of time and money studying something to help others if they couldn`t even make enough to pay loans back, or receive some sort of compensation for their life`s work?
  89. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:08 pm
    "Police officers and soldiers don`t make a profit."

    They do in fact receive a wage, but in my opinion it isn`t enough. We owe both of them more than we pay; because in the end they pay much more than any of us.
  90. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5436 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:08 pm
    You people who think you are entitled to something for free off the backs of other people are freaking insane.
  91. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    elkingo

    "Why the hell would ANYONE spend that sort of time and money studying something to help others if they couldn`t even make enough to pay loans back, or receive some sort of compensation for their life`s work?"

    I don`t think you know what the f.uck "profit" means. Maybe you should have added some business classes in with everything else.

    a. The return received on an investment after all charges have been paid.
    b. The rate of increase in the net worth of a business enterprise.
    c. Income received from investments or property.
    d. The amount received for a commodity or service in excess of the original cost.

    I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL`S RIGHT TO EARN A WAGE. I`m talking about a business taking in more money than is required to provide a service.

    Do you think people at non-profits don`t get paid? The director of the red cross makes like $200,000+ a year.
  92. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6740 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    Elkingo

    How can someone go to that much schooling and not understand very basic concepts?
  93. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 12:47 pm
    Here`s something else we should talk about Obama care doesn`t do s hit to lower the cost of these things which is the real problem......
  94. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 11:33 pm
    Socailism is not all bad...
    Tell that to the 100 million people who have been murdered or starved to death under it.
  95. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    October 4, 2013 at 11:36 pm
    I`m talking about a business taking in more money than is required to provide a service.
    So, HG will you be investing YOUR 401k in a venture that promises not to pay you jack $#!+ for the use of your money (but still might lose it all)?
  96. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 5, 2013 at 5:20 am
    @elkingo

    Exactly what HolyGod said, regards profit/pay.

    @OldOllie

    There are plenty of for-profit companies that none of us here are talking about turning into non-profits. Invest in those. This discussion is about taking one industry and making it a non-profit social service, akin to law enforcement and the rest. We are not talking about making ALL businesses like that.

    If I buy a toy from you, I`m happy for you to profit.
    If you`re solving my crime or putting out my fire or fixing my broken arm, I`d rather that be done as a non-profit service.

    The difference between things that improve quality of life, and the things that maintain it.

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