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Category: Misc
Date: 10/21/13 09:29 AM

100 Responses to AR-15 Vs Shotgun For Home Defense

  1. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 20, 2013 at 4:00 pm
    Link: AR-15 Vs Shotgun For Home Defense - Which works best? Are Joe Biden & @WhoDat correct?
  2. Profile photo of spanz
    spanz Male 50-59
    882 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:07 am
    I think a shotgun, for a nervous homeowner, is a good choice. buckshot, no choke, easy to hit. Of course, by the time homeowner could buy one, Obama will make serue u can only get a 3 round magazine!.

    a person who actually knows how to shoot and is good under pressure would obviously do better with a short barrel AR and a 20 or 30 round magazine. No question about that
  3. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6764 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:12 am
    I totally agree that if you need to shoot bottles from 30 yards away in bright daylight an AR15 is MUCH better than a shotgun.
  4. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6171 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:17 am
    I prefer to have both. That way I can determine for myself which is more appropriate on a case by case basis.
  5. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:51 am
    Shotguns are best for people who aren`t very experienced with firearms. If you have good aim and you`re comfortable with indoor firefights you can use an AR-15, or any gun/rifle for that matter.

    The problem is that most people have never been in a high-stress situation like combat or a home invasion. The psychological part is what most people have a problem with. If you don`t stay calm and make the proper split-second decisions chances are you`re f*cking dead.

    It all comes down to experience and personal preference of firearms if you ask me.
  6. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:52 am
    It`s all shotguns here in the UK(*), so I have some thoughts and questions.

    A shotgun is particularly intimidating when pointed at you. A bigger barrel has a primal effect. Sure, your forebrain knows that a bullet a few mm wide can easily kill you, but your hindbrain is screaming that bigger hole = bigger danger. Also, they will know that you can`t miss. If you want to threaten to kill someone in your home in order to intimdate them into obedience until the police arrive, a shotgun looks like a better bet to me.

    Now the question - could a normal bullet from an AR15 go through a typical interior home wall? A door? How about the range after going through, for example, a person`s body? In other words, isn`t there a risk of killing someone else inside or outside your home?

    * You may have heard that all guns are illegal in the UK. You`ve heard wrong.
  7. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 10:55 am
    If you have good aim and you`re comfortable with indoor firefights

    Nobody with any sense is comfortable with indoor firefights. Trained, experienced, well equipped soldiers aren`t comfortable with indoor firefights.
  8. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 11:00 am
    "Trained, experienced, well equipped soldiers aren`t comfortable with indoor firefights."

    I`m a trained, experienced and well equipped United States Marine Corps veteran and I`m comfortable with indoor firefights. It`s a matter of being able to maintain your composure in a dangerous situation. Once you train as much as we did it becomes almost automatic, I speak from experience.
  9. Profile photo of djwajda
    djwajda Male 40-49
    885 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 11:07 am
    @MeGrendal

    I agree, compromise with both.


  10. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 11:20 am
    "Trained, experienced, well equipped soldiers aren`t comfortable with indoor firefights."

    Uhhhmmm you are aware that they have training specifically for that whole urban warfare thing?
  11. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 11:24 am

    * You may have heard that all guns are illegal in the UK. You`ve heard wrong.

    Nope just all the good ones!


    Got both and I`ll think I`ll keep both you can have your "safety." What I won`t do is take Bidens advice and just blast through the door call it a hunch that`s a really bad idea!
  12. Profile photo of fancythat
    fancythat Male 30-39
    1950 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 11:40 am
    This guy`s an idiot. 3 minutes in, he forgets he has no hearing left...
  13. Profile photo of jorshdan
    jorshdan Male 18-29
    48 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:07 pm
    When I was 14 someone tried to break into my house. I can tell you from experience that a shotgun is the best way to go. They had just got in when they saw me rack the slide. I have never seen someone run so fast in my entire life.
  14. Profile photo of piratefish
    piratefish Male 40-49
    675 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    The government is insane if they think I am just going to surrender any of my natural rights to defend myself against all threats, both foreign AND domestic.
  15. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7740 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:16 pm
    Build up that armoury, America, there`s a terrorist trying to attack you in your home every other day I`ll bet.
    McG epitomises why I fear `homeowners` more than an armed robber. That, and the fact that I`m in my 50s and have never once needed to `defend` myself from onslaught. And neither have 99% of Americans if you ask me.
  16. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:20 pm
    McG epitomises why I fear `homeowners` more than an armed robber.

    Why would that be? I`m not the one telling people to shoot through their doors. Oh hey wanna se my collection MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!
  17. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6764 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:23 pm
    McGovern

    "Why would that be?"

    Probably your particular combination of brainpower and firepower.
  18. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:32 pm
    Tralalala...

  19. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:33 pm
    lalalalala...
  20. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:34 pm
    lala....
  21. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:35 pm
    lalalalala....
  22. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:37 pm
    Tralalala doobedoowaaa!!
  23. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 12:51 pm
    The MOST IMPORTANT THING is:

    The vast majority of "gun defences" never have a shot fired!

    So essentially? Yes: ANY gun will do the job of frightening away common criminals.

    This video asks the question: what about when you have to shoot? It compares a double-barrel with the AR-15 because of Joe Biden`s idiotic advice!

    Note that in close range? The shotgun blast does NOT `spread out` at all! Like the guy says: it`s just like a rifle.
    So why have the heavy, big recoil shotgun when the lighter, low recoil AR-15 does the same job, better! Doesn`t blow holes through walls!

    I mentioned @WhoDat because he`s a "Joe Biden Fan" And I agree: experience & training are far more important than the choice of weapon.

    BUT THAT`S THE OTHER POINT!

    The gun-grabbers want to take away YOUR choice! And when did liberals start opposing "choice" eh?
  24. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 1:01 pm


    Funny because it`s true! Eh?

    @Angilion: I knew that! lolz! It`s just handguns and rifles which are severely restricted, not -completely- outlawed. Yet.

    @drawman61: You`ve overlooked 2 things:
    #1 @jorshdan`s post (welcome to IAB!)
    #2 Freedom of choice.

    It`s UNLIKELY my house will catch on fire, but I have 2 extinguishers on hand anyways!

    And what comfort do you offer those who ARE victims of brutal crime in countries where they`re not "allowed" to defend themselves?

    Or the relationship between strict gun LAWS and high murder rates in the USA?

    The US Citizen has this RIGHT. To take it away is not a "casual thing" at all.

    In Canada? Stricter "gun laws" did... absolutely nothing! Except cost billions!
    When they were overturned? Nothing bad happened!
  25. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 1:02 pm
    Probably your particular combination of brainpower and firepower.

    OH NOEZ!! The holiest of holes and his hole friends don`t like my guns so they`ve taken to insults as some sort of argument!
  26. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 1:44 pm
    "Note that in close range? The shotgun blast does NOT `spread out` at all!"

    That depends on the type of shotgun you have and the type/size of your ammo.



    "...low recoil AR-15 does the same job, better! Doesn`t blow holes through walls!"

    Bullsh*t, an AR-15 has a muzzle velocity of about 3200 fps. That .223 (5.56mm) round has no problem going through walls. Your typical 12 gauge shotgun has a muzzle velocity that`s about a third of the AR-15.
  27. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 1:52 pm
    @WhoDat: True, various shots spread faster, and the `choke` is a factor too, yes?

    But he did specify it was 00-Buckshot: The #1 all time favorite & most common type used (afaik!). Unless you load up with `birdshot`? Which will NOT penetrate walls (for sure!) but also won`t "stop criminals" too well. Oh it will! Just not as well as 00-Buck...

    Anyhow? There`s 86 Million shotguns in the USA and only 5 Million AR-15...
    ...of course lots of guns just like the AR-15 are out there too...
  28. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6764 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 2:24 pm
    McGovern

    "OH NOEZ!! The holiest of holes and his hole friends don`t like my guns so they`ve taken to insults as some sort of argument!"

    I like your guns actually. I don`t think there is a reason to post a bunch of images all the time, but that`s fine. I like guns. I shot a mini gun, an AK47, and a .50 cal sniper rifle at a range once. Was one of the most fun 15 minutes I`ve ever had with my pants on.
  29. Profile photo of Rick_S
    Rick_S Male 40-49
    3282 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 2:47 pm
    I wonder if they make left handed version of the AR-15. The magazine release and safety are really placed for right handed use.
  30. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 2:53 pm
    @Rick_S - Stag Arms sells a conversion kit for $72.00.
  31. Profile photo of jorshdan
    jorshdan Male 18-29
    48 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 2:56 pm
    @5Cats Thanks, joined just to comment on this post.
    @Rick S Rock River Arms makes full lefty AR`s.
    Being left handed I`ve never owned or shot left handed AR`s. I`ve done a lot of police benefit shooting and in about 90,000 + rounds I`ve never had much issue with hot brass as long as I wear safety glasses and a good hat.
  32. Profile photo of djwajda
    djwajda Male 40-49
    885 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 3:03 pm
    Ahhhh hot brass hitting one in the face, I remember it oh so well. The so called `brass deflector` was a joke...
  33. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6764 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 3:09 pm
    I vote republican because I`m pro-life...

    except on war, the death penalty, guns, healthcare, taking care of the needy, drone strikes, stand your ground laws, torture...
  34. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7740 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 4:35 pm
    McG, HG sums you up perfectly and as if to underline his point you start waving your small d.ick around. #1-Just who are you expecting to storm thru your windows? #2-How many times have these villains attacked your fortress? #3- What makes you think anyone would give enough of a s*** about you to attack you in the first place?
  35. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7740 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 4:44 pm
    5cats- quite fair to point out jorshdan but he is part of that 1%. The rest of you have more chance of Santa coming into your home than a gang of armed mercenaries.
    Freedom of choice and human beings just doesn`t work well together. I can actually understand a pistol but not-rights like McG take the idea of freedom go way over-the-top. Unless he`s aware of a foreign army about to attack his street and using his house as their HQ he displaying nothing but the little man syndrome.
  36. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 5:04 pm
    I find that the best gun for home defense is the one that`s closest to you at the time. An AR-15 locked up in your upstairs gun safe isn`t going to help you sitting on the couch watching a movie, when a gang of thugs bursts in your door.

    That is why concealed carry, and training for it, is important. Home invaders don`t always wait until your asleep in bed, it can happen at anytime.
  37. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 5:09 pm
    McG, HG sums you up perfectly and as if to underline his point you start waving your small d.ick around.

    DAAWWW do the picture put sand in your pussy?? Here we go a man afraid of inanimate objects wants to tell others their dick is small LOL! Now weren`t you the guy posting all government conspiracy crap but you think the people should just roll over and disarm?? Damn talk about dickless!
  38. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 5:17 pm
    The answers to the question
    #1 Zero cause their ass might get shot.
    #2 Zero cause their ass might get shot.
    #3 Zero cause their ass might get shot.

    There`s more to do with them than just home defense BTW. If you knew anything about them you`d see I only have 2 that are kind of the same category of rifle ones really accurate and the other used to have cheap ammo to plink with not so much now. Ones a ahotgun ones a pistol and ones is a WW2 rifle that was in actual service.
  39. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3908 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 5:29 pm
    The Rambo or hero fantasy some people have all planned out in their heads is kind of funny actually. If or when the sh*t were to hit the fan in Anytown, USA I guarantee you many of the crazy doomsday prepper rednecks would sh*t their pants and run before firing their weapon at another human being. It`s not as easy as you`d like to think it would be.
  40. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2163 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 5:44 pm
    hickock45.. and I`ll pass.
    I can`t stand listening to this guy
  41. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 6:22 pm
    I choose neither. I`ll stick with a hand gun. It fits in the nightstand drawer. Besides, I live in a condo on the third floor. Who in their right mind would try to break in? Way too many neighbors.

    I`m more worried about threats outside the home. The cars I drive make me a target. Heard on the radio the other day about a hold-up very close to where I work. It`s an affluent area, but there are pockets of ghetto here and there. Welcome to the coastal South... Never know what might happen. Can`t fit a rifle in the glove box or on your hip.
  42. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    For those who think a rifle is over-kill and that your handgun is all you need...you have been fooled by hollywood.

    I highly encourage everyone to protect their home with a handgun, but beware the limitations. Very very very rarely does one shot from a pistol stop someone. Most people can still move, run, and even attack after several shots from larger handguns like the 45acp.

    This is the internet, and people state B.S. all the time...so don`t believe me. Here is a vid of a doctor who knows first hand the effects of gunshot victims.

    There are some graphic picture in this vid

    Also, go on live leak and youtube and watch police shootouts. Very very very very rarely does someone drop to the ground from a handgun shot.

    I am not making a point in favor or against handguns or rifles, but you should know the reality. It`s y
  43. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    Mykunter - I salute you for making your safety your responsibility, just don`t expect a 45 or even 50cal to stop a threat with one shot. If you have the stomach, look below. It`s mostly informative, but there are a few gross pics. ENJOY!

  44. Profile photo of osirisascend
    osirisascend Male 40-49
    3045 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 8:18 pm
    I`m going to stick with my Wilson Combat CQB Elite.
  45. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 8:23 pm
    I vote republican because I`m pro-life...

    except on war, the death penalty, guns, healthcare, taking care of the needy, drone strikes, stand your ground laws, torture...

    @HolyGod: Your fail is just... epic! While every "point" in my cartoon was 100% correct? You`ve just listed "liberal attack points" as if they were factual OR even remotely related to conservatism.

    >>Wars? More started by Dem PotUS than Repubs. We`ve had this conversation on IAB (perhaps not with you specifically).
    >>Drones: Increased by Obama
    >>Torture: Continued by Obama, along with rendition. They use ships at sea now...
    >>Death Penalty: because people who murder others should be rehabilitated? Yes, that one is true, consers DO support it.
    >>Taking care of the needy: MORE than liberals, and using their OWN money! Not someone else`s!

    Sad. Pathetic even!
  46. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 8:34 pm
    @mykunter: There`s been many career criminals who SPECIALIZED in hitting higher-up targets.

    The term "second story man"? Rings a bell?

    "Cat Burglars" were known for climbing up things to break in.

    Several criminals have climbed up balconies like they were a ladder, looking for unlocked patio doors... and several have fallen! LMAO!

    Just saying: It may be safer higher up, but it`s not "criminal proof"...
  47. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 9:01 pm
    @5Cats: yeah, I guess. I just don`t have anything to steal though, lol. All though, I have an 11.5` kayak in my dining room they would trip over... haha. I`m a car guy, that`s where my money is.

    @Turd: Good video! My stomach was fine. Very informative. I didn`t consider the cavitation effect of a high powered rifle. Just thought it would be like an ice pick. I`m realizing that it can be nasty. I don`t know... I always thought hollow points at close range were most effective. After all, it`s what the cops have. For home defense, I would think that a sawed off shotty would be ideal. But sawed off is illegal... go figure.
  48. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Mykunter - protection is pretty important in my eyes. It is also a good idea to know what to expect...just don`t base perception on Hollywood examples.

    Yes, a shotgun is perfect for in-home defense. The shorter the barrel the better. Long barrel shotguns don`t spread the pellets at inside distances. A short barrel will not only spread out the pellets, but also prevent over-penetration thru walls, avoiding hurting the neighbors.

    There are hundreds of hours on youtube with cops shooting and being shot. Almost never does a handgun "drop" someone one.

    That is why the news always tells stories of cops shooting a suspect dozens of times. If a criminal has a gun, they shoot until he hits the ground, which takes a lot of bullets.

    Knowing is half the battle....G.I. JOE!!!-------*
  49. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    October 21, 2013 at 9:30 pm
    @Turd: Yeah, I did the training for a CWP a few years ago. If using a hand gun, empty the clip into the target. That way, the cops get a one-sided story.

    I don`t ever want to be in that situation... don`t put me there.
  50. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 12:07 am
    That was NOT a home defense shotgun. My 12-ga. pump holds 6-7 rounds (mags or regs), and it can be reloaded on the fly. It has an 18" barrel and a built-in tactical light that corresponds exactly to the shot pattern. Just light `em up, slap the trigger, and call the coroner.
  51. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7740 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 4:23 am
    McG, whodat sums it up perfectly. It`s all a Rambo fantasy.
    And you know what, my answer to all three questions is zero and I`ve never owned a gun in my life.
  52. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 5:47 am
    The Rambo or hero fantasy some people have all planned out in their heads is kind of funny actually.

    Except I never made any indications to that. I like shooting that mainly why I have those the other things are just more reasons to own. Just a fun day at the range....


    :-p
  53. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 5:54 am
    @drawman61

    So now you know why I own guns more than me? You got a wise ass answer to your question cause they were all pretty much the same. The truth is it eats you up seeing people own things that you don`t like and think they should have to live how you say so you make pathetic arguments about it. ENJOY THE PICS! I put them up for people just like you cause it makes your ass hurt.
  54. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 5:58 am
    I guarantee you many of the crazy doomsday prepper rednecks

    Also not that besides the guns which when you look at a lot of other peoples collection aren`t that many. The only other thing I have that could be vaguely considered a prepper item is a box of ramen noodles which should last about 20 or so years.
  55. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 6:05 am
    But sawed off is illegal... go figure.

    PSSST **whispers** but collapsible stocks on them aren`t see below. Go figure huh that what happens when people who are scared of guns and know nothing about them make laws for them.
  56. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 6:23 am
    @McGovern1981

    Thinking guns in the home for defence is a bad idea =/= scared of guns.
  57. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:13 am
    @CrakrJak

    "when a gang of thugs bursts in your door."

    Better be prepared for tiger attacks too. And sharks in your bathtub. And asteroids hitting your roof.

    You know, while we`re entertaining getting all worried about extremely unlikely threats.

    "it can happen at anytime."

    Holy hell, who has got you so spooked? Do you seriously worry about this? Wait, of course you don`t...you`ve got your security blanket...sorry, I mean gun. You can sleep easy. ^_^
  58. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:20 am
    @5Cats

    Just because the Democrats support/do the things that HolyGod accused the Conservatives of supporting/doing, doesn`t mean the Conservatives are absolved of criticism for those things.

    If I punch you in the face, you won`t forgive me just because HolyGod punched you twice...would you?
  59. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:40 am
    @Musuko42

    Telling others what they can and can`t own because you think it`ll make you "safer" = scared of guns.
  60. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:44 am
    @McGovern1981

    "Telling others what they can and can`t own because you think it`ll make you "safer""

    Welcome to civilised society, where that happens all the time, for all our mutual benefit.

    For example, neither of us are allowed to own people. Is that because we`re scared of slavery?
  61. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:45 am
    Common sense isn`t strong in a place that puts limits on sharp objects. Momma government will make it all beter for you....
  62. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:47 am
    @McGovern1981

    I`m sorry, are you still talking to me? Because you didn`t respond to my reply.
  63. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:49 am
    @McGovern1981

    We control our government. That`s what democracy is about.

    The government isn`t putting restrictions on us. We`re putting restrictions on ourselves, via the tool of our government. We chose to do that, because we wanted to.

    You seem to me to see your government as your enemy, as some seperate nameless force that`s against you, seperate from you. A lot of people don`t share that view.

    If you want to accuse me of being afraid of guns, fine. In return, I`ll ask you: why are you so scared of your government?
  64. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:51 am
    Welcome to civilised society, where that happens all the time, for all our mutual benefit.


    Civilised LOL! Sure that`s why the royals and government get to have armed protection what a pleb!

    For example, neither of us are allowed to own people. Is that because we`re scared of slavery?


    And then an argument from left field cause it`s all you can grasp. Think that has something to human rights violations. Now tell me how many slaves had guns again??
  65. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:51 am
    @McGovern1981

    Oh, and common sense on limiting things? We can turn that right back at you: your drinking age is 21 across most of your countr, right? It`s 18 here.

    What`s the matter, momma government doesn`t trust you with a drinkypoos?

    See how stupid it sounds? That`s how you sound when you say it.
  66. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:54 am
    @McGovern1981

    "Civilised LOL! Sure that`s why the royals and government get to have armed protection what a pleb!"

    Because people target them. Nobody`s targeting me.

    Again, what`s with this "pleb" business? What`s the name of the bug that`s up your butt when it comes to the UK and the Royal Family? Because I think it needs to be studied and catalogued.

    I mean...plebeian just means "common". As in, commoner, common man. Regular, ordinary, everyday person.

    Does that not describe you, as well as almost everyone in here?
  67. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
    @McGovern1981

    Regards slavery, I`m not answering your question until you answer mine. Mine was first.

    Are you barred from owning another person because we`re scared of slavery?
  68. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:57 am
    We control our government. That`s what democracy is about.

    The government isn`t putting restrictions on us. We`re putting restrictions on ourselves, via the tool of our government. We chose to do that, because we wanted to.

    ROFL!!! Ya that`s why they let the people vote on your ever increasing restrictions on things..... ya that`s speaking for the people there!


    If you want to accuse me of being afraid of guns, fine. In return, I`ll ask you: why are you so scared of your government?

    Not scared just know politicians are full of s hit most of the time and with your countries track record I`d question the true motive of such things. That and the whole there`s countries nearby you that don`t restrict such thing with far less violent crime.
  69. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:58 am
    @Musuko42: Are you suggesting that NO conservs support charities? Or that NO liberals support the death penalty?

    Where are the cries of "BLACK AND WHITE THINKING" from the IAB Liberal Brigade? For shame!

    Yet ALL the things in my cartoon are SPECIFIC to liberals. And accurate too! Limiting the SIZE OF SODA isn`t a conservative platform... just fyi...

    And currently in the USA? Guns are LEGAL! Why don`t you SHUT UP AND OBEY THE LAW like the IAB-LB says about ObamaCare? :-) >-( Double standard much? Yes you can!

  70. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 7:58 am
    @McGovern1981

    Actually, don`t bother replying. I`m done hearing from you. See, 5Cats is actually pleasant enough, despite everything, when you pick through the way he talks about things he gets too worked up over.

    You, however...you`re just an ugly person. I`m just going to walk away.
  71. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:03 am
    @5Cats

    "Are you suggesting that NO conservs support charities? Or that NO liberals support the death penalty?"

    I`m not suggesting that at all.

    I`m just saying it`s wrong of you to point at another guilty party to try and divert from your party`s own guilt.

    "Yet ALL the things in my cartoon are SPECIFIC to liberals."

    Are you trying to claim that not once has a conservative person ever supported limitations or controls on any of those things?

    "And currently in the USA? Guns are LEGAL! Why don`t you SHUT UP AND OBEY THE LAW like the IAB-LB says about ObamaCare?"

    I`m in the UK, 5Cats. You`re doing it again: you`re getting people mixed up. We are not one homogenous blob. We`re individuals.
  72. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:04 am
    Oh, and common sense on limiting things? We can turn that right back at you: your drinking age is 21 across most of your countr, right? It`s 18 here.

    Well I agree it should be 18 it used to be. What we didn`t do was try to ban it outright for everyones "safety" except for politician and royalty. IMAGINE THAT!
  73. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:05 am
    @Musuko42: Because governments have NEVER EVER put their own citizens into concentration camps... I mean "rehabilitation centres"... EVER!

    Not: Russia, Britain, France, USA, China, Canada, Germany, Belgium, Turkey... HECK NO! We can trust them, they`re here to help us!

    Conservatives opposed and eventually ended slavery... a little history lesson for you... at least in England, Canada and the USA.

    But go on! Say more things that aren`t true!
  74. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:06 am
    @5Cats

    Note also that I expressed SUPPORT for Zimmerman and his use of a gun to defend himself. Don`t you remember? I didn`t speak against his legal right to do something (carry a gun) just because I don`t agree with that legality.
  75. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:07 am
    @McGovern1981

    Replying to me is pointless. I`m no longer reading your posts. I come here to pass the time, and you annoy me.
  76. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:10 am
    @5Cats

    "Because governments have NEVER EVER put their own citizens into concentration camps... I mean "rehabilitation centres"... EVER!"

    I didn`t say they haven`t. I just disagree with the implied approach to preventing those things from happening. I don`t think owning a gun is the answer. I think that if you`ve already lost control of your government to the point where you need a gun, you`ve already lost the fight, as the government will always have bigger guns.

    "Conservatives opposed and eventually ended slavery... a little history lesson for you... at least in England, Canada and the USA. But go on! Say more things that aren`t true!"

    I never said they didn`t. Could you point out what I said that led you to believe that I said anything like that?

  77. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:12 am
    You`re doing it again: you`re getting people mixed up.
    Not mixing, I`m being sarcastic: "shut up and obey" is a VERY LIBERAL idea.

    No, not 100% of course! But there`s a HUGE difference between 90/10 and 40/60, correct? One is CLOSE to 100%, the other close to 50%... rule of thumb, eh?

    Keep in mind (about guns) that the MSM DOES NOT REPORT the thousands of times guns save lives in the USA. They have an agenda, make no mistake! You have to dig through "local papers" or follow specific blogs to find the facts.
    The FBI Statistics show a LOT of guns used successfully in defence and VERY FEW accidental shootings...

    The CHOICE should be with the individual, not the "Nanny State". Until such time as the criminals have THEIR guns taken away! DO THAT FIRST then get back to us...
  78. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:14 am
    Are you barred from owning another person because we`re scared of slavery?

    DO you think people enjoy the thought of becoming a slave or are scared of it? Exactly....

    You, however...you`re just an ugly person. I`m just going to walk away.

    So basically your gun free ideals just got s hit on so you say.....
  79. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:15 am
    @5Cats

    "Not mixing, I`m being sarcastic: "shut up and obey" is a VERY LIBERAL idea."

    It`s a very liberal idea to believe in law and order?

    "The CHOICE should be with the individual, not the "Nanny State"."

    Where do you draw the line on that view? Should the individual be allowed to decide if it`s okay to murder?
  80. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:19 am
    @McGovern1981

    It has nothing to do with guns, and everything to do with you being unpleasant to talk to.

    Note that I`m still happy to debate it with 5Cats, and his views are as opposed to mine as yours are.

    Now, just stop please.
  81. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:20 am
    Note also that I expressed SUPPORT for Zimmerman and his use of a gun to defend himself.
    Well, good! Once all the FACTS came out it was "open and shut" eh?
    It didn`t matter that his `pants were tucked in` like @madest ranted...
    Don`t you remember?
    I don`t usually keep track of such things.
    I didn`t speak against his legal right to do something (carry a gun) just because I don`t agree with that legality.
    See? THAT makes no sense to me!
    He can legally & morally defend himself with a gun...
    But NOT OWN ONE! Or carry it around.
    It`s sort of hard to defend your life if your gun is locked in a vault at the firing range (like SOME laws require...)

    You brought up `slavery` (for some strange reason) so it`s `fair ball`. WHO was the #1 Slave Importer? FRANCE. Top slave gatherers? Portugal & Britain!
  82. Profile photo of jorshdan
    jorshdan Male 18-29
    48 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:23 am
    @Musuko42 What country do you live in btw? Not hating. I have friends from Sweden and Ireland, and they both have pretty different gun laws. Especially from the US, but even compared to each other. I personally feel that this comes down to ideals. And a nation of 311ish million people cannot be accurately governed by one entity, i.e. The Federal government.

    That is why we have state governments. Anywho back to the topic at hand. Stories from the ground should not effect your defense choice. I feel this video did a bad job representing shotguns. There are a number of pump actions that wont kick, and as was mentioned before shotguns are very intimidating. The sound of racking a shell is iconic and terrifying if you`re on the other end.
  83. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:27 am
    Oh well he`s no longer speaking to me....


    I`m devastated!
  84. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:29 am
    "Shut up and obey" has NOTHING to do with "law and order" dude!

    It`s what the Police tell you as they shove you into a cattle-car for "relocation" to Auschwitz... all perfectly legal of course!

    "Should the individual... murder"
    *sigh* not THAT `dog & pony show` AGAIN!

    I legally own a gun, I harm no one. (*see below)
    I murder? I harm someone ELSE.

    It`s the same with "victimless crimes" the liberals are so keen on de-criminalizing! Yet THEY hold a DIFFERENT measure for other things which ARE legal!

    Prostitution? Victimless? That`s fairly `thin ice` but I suppose...

    Legal Gun Ownership? Threatens children`s lives? Um... NO! But that`s exactly the argument the `gun grabbers` make!

    *Hypothetically speaking: I`m in Canada after all! But we`re talking about the USA, eh?
  85. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:30 am
    What`s the name of the bug that`s up your butt when it comes to the UK and the Royal Family? Because I think it needs to be studied and catalogued.


    It comes from my amusement that a people who consider themselves so smart and non religious here adamantly defend a disgusting and pointless display of opulence said to be elected by god and paid for by them and their ancestors.
  86. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:36 am
    @McGovern: Not "elected by god"! He pulled a sword out of a stone! Jeez get your history right dude :-P

    @jorshdan: The double barrel was selected because of Joe Biden`s "advice". He said on a "Twon Hall Forum" and later in several speeches, that:
    "All you NEED is a shotgun"
    "Just fire BOTH BARRELS into the air"
    "A shotgun blast THROUGH THE DOOR will scare criminals away"

    Not joking, he said all those things and more! There`s video!

    So Joe "The Sherriff" Biden (Yes! His real nickname!) Wants to tell you "all you need" and then RESTRICT YOU TO THAT! Not nice, Joe!

    As for shooting THROUGH the front door?...

    But yes, there`s also .410 or 20-gague shotguns which have a lot less kick too! Joe doesn`t like those though :-)
  87. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:37 am
    Now I nap! Seriously... losing consciousness...
  88. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:39 am
    @5Cats

    "See? THAT makes no sense to me!"

    I`ll clarify: In my view, Zimmerman stayed within the law. I have no argument with him. My issue is with the law itself, not with the man obeying the law.

    "You brought up `slavery` (for some strange reason)"

    I brought it up as an example in the debate whether being banned from owning something stems from fear of that something, not to debate the merits of slavery, nor who has the most skeletons in the cupboard (I`m under no illusions about my country`s own ugly past on the subject: we`re responsible for starting America and Canada down that road, after all. As the PSA said: I learned it from watching you, Dad!).
  89. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:44 am
    @5Cats

    "I legally own a gun, I harm no one."

    Plenty of accidental deaths have happened through children getting hold of legally-owned guns. And the person you`re most likely to harm with your gun is yourself.

    I know, I know; such dangers exist with pretty much everything. The point of discussion is, really: how much danger are we as a society happy to accept in exchange for the benefits?

    So, driving: it`s extremely dangerous, but we put up with it because we feel the benefits outweigh the dangers.

    When it comes to guns, we just disagree on the balance: I think the dangers outweigh the benefits. You think the other way. Our views are not very different...we just disagree on the weighting.

    Does that sound right to you?

    "*Hypothetically speaking: I`m in Canada after all! But we`re talking about the USA, eh?"

    Hypothetically is what makes it good to talk about.
  90. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:45 am
    @5Cats

    "Now I nap! Seriously... losing consciousness..."

    Nap good.
  91. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:50 am
    @jorshdan

    Sorry to lose you in the flood. I`m in the UK.

    "I personally feel that this comes down to ideals. And a nation of 311ish million people cannot be accurately governed by one entity, i.e. The Federal government."

    Agreed, on the ideals. But on the government: why not? You`ve done a pretty decent job of it so far, all told. And other countries manage it, to varying degrees of success.
  92. Profile photo of jorshdan
    jorshdan Male 18-29
    48 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 9:43 am
    @Musuko42
    "Agreed, on the ideals. But on the government: why not? You`ve done a pretty decent job of it so far, all told. And other countries manage it, to varying degrees of success."

    Because the U.S. prides itself on being a cultural melting pot with many different cultures and demographics. To assume this `insert law here` will be the best for everyone shows laziness and shortsightedness on the part of our representatives. An average person from Texas will be very different from one in New York, just as they would be different from Someone in Hawaii. I`ve been fortunate enough to have traveled through 45 states, and I can`t even begin to describe the huge difference in people. To say this blanket law will effect a person in San Diego the same as it will a Native in Alaska is just plain disrespectful. When it comes down to it I feel the Federal government should only do a few things, and become masters of it before assuming more power.
  93. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 10:09 am
    Musuko: "Holy hell, who has got you so spooked? Do you seriously worry about this?"

    I didn`t say that any threat has me "spooked". I`m not anxious about anything. Living in fear is not good for anybody. Thankfully, I`ve chosen to live in a low crime area. But I`m not so relaxed that I don`t lock my doors either. Fortune favors the prepared, it`s better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
  94. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 1:34 pm
    In my view, Zimmerman stayed within the law.
    Ok @Musuko42: I managed to see this viewpoint, it`s not unreasonable. It took a little "mental gymnastics" though ;-)

    Nap was... just `ok`. Rough sleeping, vaguely disturbing dreams. I have tooth problems, dentist tomorrow! Yay! :-/

    As for "things we`re not allowed to own"? Heroin, cocaine, poisons like `sarin`... there`s a high cost to letting these things "run free" in society...
    AND a high cost for "controlling" them! The "War On Drugs" (Ronald Reagan`s WORST idea!) is another absolute disaster that costs billions to the US. ObamaCare will cost TRILLIONS!

    There`s something to be said for `balance` and I think current Gov`ts world-wide are overly HUGE and intrusive...

    And if two adults consent to a "master-slave" relationship? THAT is perfectly legal! As long as it`s for sex... :-/ not income.
  95. Profile photo of bdowner60
    bdowner60 Male 40-49
    593 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 2:23 pm
    I can see you`re so called "unbiased" test , next time use a flintlock shotgun to make it more obvious, also the semi auto or pump shotgun is more 21st century than you`re 20th century comparison!
  96. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32823 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 4:27 pm
    @bdowner60: Since there`s pages of comments, I`ll forgive you for not knowing:

    The REASON he`s comparing the double-barreled shotgun and AR-15 SPECIFICALLY is because Joe Biden (Vice President of the USA) said "all you need is a double barrel shotgun" to defend your home.

    He also said you should go outside and "fire two blasts into the air" with it if you suspect criminals are around. Or "fire a blast THROUGH THE DOOR" if you suspect criminals are outside.

    Not joking. He said that and more! Several times!

    Anyhow? This guy knows (I guess) that other shotguns might work better, but Joe "The Sherriff" Biden said otherwise, so he`s comparing these two.
  97. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    October 22, 2013 at 8:12 pm

    muskofaggy2 - Never have I heard such a complete list of idiotic comments...

    I especially like the part where you say you are walking away, and then do the opposite.

    The truth is that you haven`t done the research. You don`t know what you are talking about. A trip to google for stats that make you feel "right" doesn`t count.

    You base your beliefs on your emotions...then look for and accept what supports your emotions...like a comfy push up bra. Only difference is that no one cares about your emotional titties.

    The fact that you keep falling back on comparisons, analogies, and metaphors to lift and separate just shows you don`t know what you are talking about.

    (see how stupid it sounds to use metaphors to make a case)
  98. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 23, 2013 at 5:28 am
    @5Cats

    You`re exactly right: it`s about balance. Some freedoms (dangerous drugs, etc) come with costs that we consider too high a burden. It`s the singing in the shower and annoying your neighbour thing: sometimes one man`s freedoms to do one thing impinges on another man`s freedom to do another thing. A balance is always needed when people live together.

    Sometimes our opinion on that balance shifts. It`s shifting on some drugs, for example. And people`s opinions vary on where the balance should lie.

    Our disagreement on guns is simply one of where the balance should lie. I`m of the view that the cons outweigh the pros, and you`re of the opposite view. We`re not fighting over the concept of things being banned...just on whether or not certain things should or should not be banned.
  99. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    October 23, 2013 at 5:31 am
    @turdburglar

    If you`d paid attention, you`ll have seen that I was walking away from talking to McGovern1981, not from the discussion. I`m still happily talking to 5Cats and others.

    "muskofaggy2" Amusing. Want to hear about my sex life? I mean, since you brought it up and all. Gay sex must be on your mind a lot. :P
  100. Profile photo of denmarkcm
    denmarkcm Male 18-29
    341 posts
    October 24, 2013 at 7:11 pm
    I have not seen Hickock45 not wear his ear plugs... or miss his first shot with a gun for that matter..

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