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Date: 09/15/13 04:08 PM

88 Responses to So It Turns Out Bible Stud Is Important [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    September 14, 2013 at 6:49 pm
    Link: So It Turns Out Bible Stud Is Important - Big fan of dawkins? Well read up!
  2. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:32 pm
    How is this a shock? Most atheists in the US are cultural christians because they grew up in a culture of christian parenting. Just like some immigrants who moved to this country illegally are now culturally American, but aren`t legally since they don`t have citizenship.

    There`s a big stretch between being culturally of a religion and actually believing it. Nor does it make that religion right or accurate.
  3. Profile photo of SethDog
    SethDog Male 18-29
    768 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:34 pm
    I call BS on this article
  4. Profile photo of 747Pilot
    747Pilot Male 18-29
    1455 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:46 pm
    Right on! Bible study is important!
  5. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm
    "The best-selling author, best-known for 2006 book The God Delusion also said he was “thoroughly in favour of educating people” about the Bible.

    He added: “European history you can’t begin to understand without knowing about the perennial hostility between Catholics and Protestants, so I suppose for history we need to."


    Yeah, for recognising the history of how Europe was drated up for so long. He`s not saying it is important for any spiritual reason.
  6. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:47 pm
    I studied the bible thoroughly. That`s why I`m an atheist.

    Most atheists I know became an atheist because they studied the bible.
  7. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 4:52 pm
    @747Pilot:
    Coming from someone who thinks 9/11 is a conspiracy, I`m worried that you`re flying 747s or doing anything that requires critical thinking skills.
  8. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 5:01 pm
    Recognizing the historical significance of religion and actually believing it aren`t the same. This is no surprise to anyone who`s an atheist and has actually read his books.
  9. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 5:07 pm
    mesovortex, why are you always so cutting? And I know a ton of atheists and almost none of them actually know the Bible stories. So I really have doubt that your atheists are all Bible experts. I know this in part because of late night trivia nights where there was one religious category - the atheists didn`t know any of them. They didn`t know Noah. They didn`t know the Forbidden Fruit. My brother`s Norwegian wife didn`t even know Cain and Able.

    It`s important to know about Religion because of the reality of the world, regardless of personal beliefs. That`s it.

    People need to stop being dicky about these topics. Nobody has the slightest clue about what`s behind the universe, so stop pretending.
  10. Profile photo of Afugy
    Afugy Male 30-39
    199 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 5:23 pm
    Andrew, I`m an atheist and I have read the bible. I have always been an atheist but as a child I went to a Catholic school for 3 years.
  11. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 5:53 pm
    That`s no groundbreaking revelation, Afugy.
  12. Profile photo of Doogamus
    Doogamus Male 30-39
    34 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 5:58 pm
    Which Bible stud? I heard Peter was hot.
  13. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 6:01 pm

    I can relate to this. I am a cultural catholic. I don`t believe a bit of it, but having been raised in that faith it colors my perception of the world and certainly effected my youth. And I`ll always remember fondly that summer f*cking Father Carl.... Oh, to be young again!

    And the church has impacted on history so I agree a foundation in biblical understanding is a good idea... as is studying the other mythologies like Greek & Roman gods.
  14. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 6:01 pm
    I`m an atheist BECAUSE I`ve studied the Bible thoroughly. I don`t mean academically as an adult, I`m talking Bible Camp, sunday school, Youth Fellowship, weekend bible retreats, you name it.

    Because I studied it, not because I didn`t.
  15. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 6:11 pm

    A "Bible Stud"

  16. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    I`m an atheist BECAUSE I`ve studied the Bible thoroughly.
    @davymid: Same reason I`m a Deist! :-)

    I see nothing "wrong" with Dawkins saying this. There ARE benefits to religion! He`s just saying that SOME of the things he learned as "an Anglican" were helpful. It`s not "black & white" eh?
  17. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 7:03 pm
    Oh! @mesovortex too! :-) Good on ya!

    Oh, to explain the "inside IAB joke"? A poster named "TheGuySmiley" got Banhammered for constantly link-spamming a particular religious site. His posts were fine otherwise! Just... also contained spam.

    IAB History Lesson! Learn history just like Dawkins says! = LOLZ!
  18. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 7:05 pm
    I think you`ll find most Atheists are well versed in the Bible and are among the few people who have actually read it.
  19. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 7:37 pm

    No atheist is an island. Religion has historic and cultural context. Mind you, so does the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, and The Great Pumpkin. I would put religion in the same category.
  20. Profile photo of Ani187
    Ani187 Female 30-39
    4448 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 7:43 pm
    I agree. I`m not an atheist, I count myself agnostic, but I think much the same way he does here. I`ve never read any of Dawkins work, or really even heard of him in more than just name. It`s not a subject matter I invest much time in.
  21. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 8:08 pm
    @Andrew155:
    Methinks you`re making this up. Every Atheist I`ve met knows the bible better than most christians do.

    Citation needed.
  22. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 8:09 pm
    @Andrew155:
    Since you don`t know how to spell "Abel", I don`t think you know your Bible very well either.
  23. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 8:10 pm
    Anglicanism is like Buddhism. It`s a bunch of obvious lies bundled together into a religion for the gullible, as all religions are, but at least it`s not as evil as Islam or Catholicism.
  24. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 8:11 pm
    @Andrew155:
    "nobody has the slightest clue"

    And yet science has doubled your life span and given you computers. We know more than you give science credit for. I think you take a lot of the modern world for granted. I would trust an engineer to build a 767 over a televangelist. If you want to consider them equal, then I think you`re smoking something rather potent.
  25. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 11:23 pm

    The Bible: You can`t know it`s rubbish unless you read it.
  26. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 15, 2013 at 11:40 pm
    mesovortex: "Every Atheist I`ve met knows the bible better than most christians do."

    If they did, they wouldn`t be typing crap out of context about it, continuously, on the internet. Besides there is a difference between reading and understanding, and that goes for any book.

    The Bible is about human stories, most all of them had flaws, the Old Testament is not about perfect people living perfect lives. It`s about people`s relationships with God and the prophecy about Jesus. The New Testament, about Jesus` life, is what`s most important.

    "We know more than you give science credit for."

    Yet we are still blind to the truth of the real important questions of life and our existence. Science will never be able to answer the really meaningful questions we have.
  27. Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 12:51 am
    And we do that, CrakrJak, when idiot Christian Fundies try to point out that the bible is "Literal" instead of paying attention to the "lessons" it is trying to teach.

    So as soon as your "Brothers & Sisters" quit trying to shove that *literal* BS down everyone`s throats, we`ll quite throwing "Literal" quotes back at you.
  28. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 1:06 am
    The title is more amusing than the content.
  29. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 3:39 am
    and that is why i was sent to a xtian school, felt for that crap the first couple of years and then endend up being having heated discussions about how absurd it was that i needed to pretend to pray when i was clearly having "doubts"

    "Science will never be able to answer the really meaningful questions we have"

    and neithre will religion, you don`t get to talk to the big guy (if and when he exsists) untill your dead, until that time all you have is stories written for men, by men, about men.

  30. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 6:04 am

    Atheists DO know more about the bible and religious people. So one study showed.

    Link
  31. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 6:13 am
    @CrakrJak:
    Science will never know everything. That`s the nature of science. At least it doesn`t make up the answers and pretend it`s `the truth` like religion does.

    I don`t know why making up your own reality is a virtue or something to be proud of.
  32. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 6:48 am
    "you don`t get to talk to the big guy ... untill your dead"

    Not true at all. God has answered my prayers several times. Usually not in the way I`d have preferred, but it`s not one way communication.

    "At least it doesn`t make up the answers and pretend..."

    If it were made up or pretend, Christianity would never have grown to the largest faith in the world.

    Besides, it`s you atheists that are making up your own reality as you go. We Christians have a steady guide in the Bible.

    Sleepyhollow: Just because you don`t believe in miracles, doesn`t mean they don`t happen. Miracles literally do happen, you see coincidence, I see consequence and design.

    One example, several years ago I lost my keys, and I NEVER lose my keys, it quickly aggravated me and after finally finding them left for work.
    Driving two blocks from my house, there was a terrible car accident, had my keys not been lost I`d have surely been involved
  33. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 6:50 am
    I`m not saying that`s proof of a miracle, but it was damn sure not coincidence.
  34. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 7:34 am
    One example, several years ago I lost my keys, and I NEVER lose my keys, it quickly aggravated me and after finally finding them left for work.
    Driving two blocks from my house, there was a terrible car accident, had my keys not been lost I`d have surely been involved
    Checkmate, atheists.
  35. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 7:45 am
    patchgrabber: "Checkmate, atheists."

    I`m not saying that. One fortunate incident doesn`t make proof of a miracle, but I`ve had several of these not-so-likely coincidences in my life. Most people, I`ve found, have experienced similar instances in their lives, most of them go unrecognized.

    I did learn one thing from it, not to get angry over little problems, like loosing keys, you never know what is in store for you.
  36. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:41 am
    @Crakrjack.. yeah god speaks to many people, like say Jim Jones, David Berg, Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, He evens speaks to Charles Manson apearantly. You say you have a steady guide in the bibble right? so how many slaves do you own? do you wear mixed cloth, are you stil a virgin or married to how many wifes? are you happy to pick up the little ones and smash their skulls against the stones?

    the times i spoke to God were the times i knew i did to many drugs..
  37. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:43 am
  38. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:44 am
    @Crakrjak:

    Stories like that just remind me of Tim Minchin`s song Thank You God:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo

    You`re not helping the cause for religion with silly tales like that.
  39. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    579 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 9:34 am
    Ah, here we go again. I still maintain that if you have read or been taught the Bible like it was a history book then that is a great disservice. If you read the history behind who wrote the books, when, and why then you`ll have a much better view on what the actual text is meant to convey. Much of the often quoted parts of the Bible that sound patently ridiculous to us today meant much different things to people thousands of years ago.
  40. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 10:00 am
    Crakr

    "Yet we are still blind to the truth of the real important questions of life and our existence. Science will never be able to answer the really meaningful questions we have."

    I agree.

    However, just because we can`t answer the question doesn`t mean we should take ridiculous answer that primitive men made up 10,000 years ago because they didn`t know either. If you notice they also used "god" as the answer for tons of things that we now DO know the answer to now.

    I can`t fully explain how a cell phone works, but just because I don`t know doesn`t mean the answer is "god".
  41. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 10:00 am
    MrOrange: Of course you would cite some of the most absurd examples. That`s just what you atheists do, mock Christians with absurdities to make yourself feel superior.

    mesovortex: You`re not helping the cause for atheism with posting condescending crap like that.
  42. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 10:06 am
    Crakr

    "you would cite some of the most absurd examples"

    Those ARE absurd. But there shouldn`t be ANY absurd things in there. Either it is the word of god or it isn`t. I`ll never understand how religious people can say some parts are true and some aren`t.

    If I gave you a history book and 50% of it talked about dragons and unicorns would you still read it because of the 50% that was accurate? Or would you throw it in the trash?
  43. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 10:20 am
    but I`ve had several of these not-so-likely coincidences in my life.
    The tragedy is that it most certainly IS a likely coincidence. But f*ck those people in the accident, who wants to stop that? Let`s just make sure Crakr doesn`t get involved by adding a simple change to his daily life that is in no way absurd. It`s this kind of confirmation bias that thanks God for the person who found the women in Ariel Castro`s basement, but doesn`t seem to mind that they were kidnapped and raped for years in the first place.
  44. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 10:38 am
    patchgrabber

    "But f*ck those people in the accident, who wants to stop that?"

    Pretty sick right?

    Crakr believes that god lost his keys to protect HIM but had no interest in protecting the other people in the accident. Why didn`t he hide their keys? Or prevent whatever caused the accident?
  45. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:32 am
    He`s just saying that SOME of the things he learned as "an Anglican" were helpful.

    No, he isn`t.

    He`s saying that Anglicanism is part of English culture and he likes some of those cultural aspects. He said that explicitly - for example, he said he thought of evensong in a church in the same way as a cricket match on a village green, i.e. not religious.

    He also said that some knowledge of religion is necessary to understand history. The example he gave was the conflict between Protestantism and Catholicism being necessary to understanding European history. That`s very far from expressing any approval of religion - that conflict blighted the lives of vast numbers of people for generation after generation and is *still killing people today*.

    Only the most desperate distortion could make what he said into an approval of religion.
  46. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36843 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 12:42 pm

    "One example, several years ago I lost my keys, and I NEVER lose my keys, it quickly aggravated me and after finally finding them left for work.
    Driving two blocks from my house, there was a terrible car accident, had my keys not been lost I`d have surely been involved

    Checkmate, atheists."
    So you`re saying God didn`t like the people who were involved?
  47. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 1:17 pm
    Crakr

    "God has answered my prayers several times. Usually not in the way I`d have preferred, but it`s not one way communication."

    I remember once in my youth I was out at a club. I met two cute girls. They were celebrating the one girl finally leaving her a.sshole boyfriend who hit her. The other girl was bisexual and trying to talk her friend into trying girls.

    I was very supportive of that idea.

    By bar closing they were making out and the night ended in a very enjoyable threesome.

    Had that guy not beat the s.hit out of his girlfriend then she wouldn`t have been out celebrating that night. So god does move in mysterious ways. I agree.
  48. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 1:44 pm
    @CrakrJak:
    Tim Minchin has a very valid point. It`s very silly for you to think god caused people to get injured in a car wreck while at the same time losing your keys so you wouldn`t be involved.

    It`s probably more likely that you lose your keys more than you think and this is just confirmation bias or a warm fuzzy thought to make you feel comfortable.

    What with ruling the known universe, and disease and world hunger, famine, starvation, all these bad things, but god managed to misplace your keys so you`d have more faith.

    Really?
  49. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 2:07 pm
    Crakr

    Another thing.

    Let`s say some entity DID hide your keys to protect you, which I think most people agree sounds asinine. However, let`s say it DID happen.

    Why do you attribute it to the judaeo-christian god? Couldn`t it have JUST as easily been Thor? Kali? Ra? Shinto tree spirits? Your ancestors? Aliens? Time travelers? Gremlins? The invisible purple tiger that lives in my attic?
  50. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 4:01 pm
    HG: "If I gave you a history book and 50% of it talked about dragons and unicorns would you still read it ... Or would you throw it in the trash?"

    So you`d trash books by Homer, Aesop, Sophocles, Pliny the Elder and many others?

    "Crakr believes that god lost his keys to protect HIM..."

    I didn`t say God moved my keys, geesh you really are thick.

    "Let`s just make sure Crakr doesn`t get involved by adding a simple change to his daily life..."

    By involved I mean very likely hurt or even killed, I`d explain why but it`s obvious you`d rather bash God for saving me and not preventing the accident in the first place.

    "It`s very silly for you to think god caused people to get injured in a car wreck..."

    I didn`t say that God caused the wreck, so please quit trying to put words in my mouth and making assumptions to bash God with.
  51. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 4:13 pm

    "Why do you attribute it to the judaeo-christian god?"

    I didn`t, YOU DID. I said I believed it was a miracle, I didn`t say that God caused the wreck or hid my keys, YOU ASSUMED that so that you could make ridiculous arguments against God.

    I could likely make arguments against both of you being born and make a list of who would`ve benefited from not knowing you. Would that mean that both of you are evil? That you shouldn`t exist? That God made a mistake letting you be conceived?

    See how ridiculous YOU sound making spurious "What if" BS arguments?
  52. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 5:12 pm
    Crakr

    "So you`d trash books by Homer, Aesop, Sophocles, Pliny the Elder and many others?"

    No. Those are self described fiction. I like fiction. I just don`t like it masquerading as history. Are you saying you think the bible is fiction?

    "I didn`t say God moved my keys"

    No. You didn`t. But you certainly used it as an example of a "miracle" in a debate where you are trying to explain your belief in god. I made the assumption that was the point. If not than I apologize. Who or what performed the miracle if not god?

    "Would that mean that both of you are evil?"

    Not sure what you are getting at, but I doubt it. What have i done that is evil? I have never tortured or murdered people to serve my own jealousy, maliciousness, or vanity like your god did.
  53. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 5:15 pm
    Crakr

    I think you guys get the bible all wrong.

    God is the BAD GUY, not satan. God is the bad guy and his son turns against him and saves us. Jesus is the good guy and that is why we should worship him, for saving us from god and his vengeance.

    I am much more on board with that interpretation. I have nothing against jesus. All the horrible things I take umbrage with were perpetrated by god.

    He has carried out, without question, the most evil acts in the history of our world. Why make him the good guy?
  54. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 6:56 pm
    But there shouldn`t be ANY absurd things in there. Either it is the word of god or it isn`t.
    @HolyGod: You`ve completely failed to grasp the whole concept, haven`t you. Free Will and all that?
    If I listen to the Beatles records, and decide they are instructing me to kill people, should Ringo get the blame?
    (Hint: Charles Manson ring a bell?)

    History Books? MANY ancient histories are FILLED with nonsense! The obvious `crazy stuff` is routinely ignored.

    "Self described fiction" are you Nucking Futz? Seriously! Homer was writing about a FICTIONAL CITY NAMED TROY!!! Wasn`t he?

    VV Your last two posts are just trolling. Sad really.
  55. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:00 pm
    @5Cats:
    Except that the Old Testament does instruct people to kill or have slaves or rape in the name of their god.

    The beatles albums don`t do that.
  56. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:33 pm
    @mesovortex: Except the New Testament `replaced` the Old Testament (Torah) for the Christians...

    Your point actually supports my side :-)

    Learning from history > Repeating it`s mistakes

    And you didn`t listen to the Beatles records properly... kill... kill... kiiiilll! :-?
  57. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:42 pm
    5Cats

    "You`ve completely failed to grasp the whole concept, haven`t you. Free Will and all that?
    If I listen to the Beatles records, and decide they are instructing me to kill people, should Ringo get the blame? (Hint: Charles Manson ring a bell?) "

    Ummmmm. That is kinda funny you mention manson since he told people to kill and now he is serving a life sentence because they did.

    Ringo doesn`t tell people to kill. God does. Verbatim. Without ambiguity.

    "Except the New Testament `replaced` the Old Testament"

    So god made a mistake? Changed his mind? Kinda f.ucks with the whole infallible thing doesn`t it?

    So then the old testament is completely null and void?
  58. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:44 pm
    5Cats

    "Self described fiction" are you Nucking Futz? Seriously! Homer was writing about a FICTIONAL CITY NAMED TROY!!! Wasn`t he?"

    So if a fiction writer writes about a real city that makes it non-fiction? So then Dan Brown was writing a historical account in Angels and Demons because it takes place in THE REAL CITY OF ROME?!?!?!

    You are comically dumb sometimes.

    Homer was a FICTION WRITER writing FICTION about a REAL EVENT in the same way Quentin Tarantino wrote about world war 2.
  59. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 8:48 pm
    5Cats

    "Your last two posts are just trolling. Sad really."

    Not at all. That is my opinion. You are welcome to disagree. That doesn`t make me a troll.

    You really telling me you can read the bible and not see god as an evil f.uck? Job, the flood, the plagues of Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah. If I gave you the bible and you had never heard of god and you read it in one sitting you really wouldn`t think he was the bad guy? He killed hundreds of thousands of people. Name a single character in a single book that does worse acts.
  60. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:12 pm
    HG: "...you are trying to explain your belief in god."

    Uhmm no, I was citing an instance that I believe to be a miracle, that initially seemed to be something unfortunate, that others like yourself would call a "coincidence".

    But you did give a prime example of why more people don`t discuss such unlikely "coincidences" as miracles. Because atheists like you can`t accept that anything, no matter how miraculous, could ever actually be a miracle. You also heartlessly ridicule anyone that does believe in them.

    "I have never tortured or murdered people to serve my own jealousy, maliciousness, or vanity..."

    So you finally admit your jealousy, malice and vanity. But just because you haven`t murdered or tortured anyone because of it, doesn`t mean you haven`t done other despicable things to serve yourself.
  61. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:25 pm
    Crakr

    "So you finally admit your jealousy, malice and vanity. But just because you haven`t murdered or tortured anyone because of it, doesn`t mean you haven`t done other despicable things to serve yourself."

    Rarely jealous. Almost never malicious. Often vain. I`m by no means perfect, but I can tell you that I honestly can`t think of anything all that despicable I`ve ever done to anybody.

    I just truly can`t see how you can read the bible and not think god is evil.
  62. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:30 pm
    HG: "God is the BAD GUY, not satan."

    You`ve said before that you don`t hate God, but you just contradicted yourself again with that statement. After all if you don`t believe in God, how could he possibly be "the BAD GUY"?

    Sorry, but you ARE NOT an atheist, you`re a God hater. If you don`t believe in God you wouldn`t be blaming him. Really, did you blame the tooth fairy for not giving you money under your pillow? Or Santa for not giving you the present you wanted?

    Go on keep hating God, but you`ll never be an atheist if you do. Sooner or later that hate is going to burn you up inside, I suspect it already has.

    I`m a Christian and proud of it, but I don`t hate buddha, vishnu or quetzalcoatl because I don`t believe in them no matter what was written about them.
  63. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:33 pm
    Crakr

    "You`ve said before that you don`t hate God, but you just contradicted yourself again with that statement. After all if you don`t believe in God, how could he possibly be "the BAD GUY"? "

    I`m talking as characters in literature. Fiction. The same way I can say Voldermort is a "bad guy" without believing in him actually existing.

    Get it?
  64. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:39 pm
    "Name a single character in a single book that does worse acts."

    I can name several: Ragnarok, Shiva, Airyaman and Atar, Xenu and quite a few others.
  65. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 16, 2013 at 11:48 pm
    HG: "I`m talking as characters in literature. Fiction."

    No you aren`t, you truly hate God and it shows. You mock him and everyone that believes in him.

    You won`t admit it here, I`m sure, but you do hate and blame God for something in your life. Perhaps you blame him for not protecting you or something/someone you loved. Whatever it is, it`s more than "fictional" or you wouldn`t be so belligerent toward God and his followers.
  66. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 12:20 am
    Crakr

    "Ragnarok"

    Are you under the impression that is a character? I had to look it up, but you may want to brush up on your norse mythology.

    "Shiva"

    Bulls.hit. When does shiva kill everyone on the planet?

    "Airyaman and Atar"

    Don`t know who they are.

    "Xenu"

    I may give you that one. Congratulations. To find your lord`s equal you had to compare him to an insane sociopathic alien invented by a crazy science fiction writer. But hey, at least give scientologists credit, they were smart enough to make him the bad guy.
  67. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 12:24 am
    Crakr

    "No you aren`t, you truly hate God and it shows. You mock him and everyone that believes in him."

    I don`t mock him, but I do mock those that believe in him the same way I would mock you if you believed in santa. If I made fun of you for believing in santa would you then say that I hate santa?
  68. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 12:26 am
    Crakr

    "Perhaps you blame him for not protecting you or something/someone you loved."

    Actually no. My life is f.ucking charmed. Ridiculously so. The worst thing that has ever happened to me or anyone I truly cared about was that I had appendicitis. In fact my life being so charmed is one of the reasons I don`t believe in god. I openly mock the very idea of his existence and I`m rewarded with this life. You worship him and you end up homeless and then disabled. Doesn`t that piss you off? Or is that why you HAVE to believe in god? Because if you didn`t have heaven to look forward to you wouldn`t be able to handle it?

    I don`t intend that as mean. I just have noticed that sometimes the people with the worst lives are the ones most desperate to believe because they need to convince themselves there is something better than this life waiting for them.
  69. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 1:58 am
    "God is the BAD GUY, not satan. God is the bad guy and his son turns against him and saves us. Jesus is the good guy and that is why we should worship him, for saving us from god and his vengeance."

    true that! if you talley up the people the devil killed acording tot the word of god, it ads up too three (really one but, i feel generous today) God killed the entire world population three times over, and "tested" his followers believe in him in pretty sick way`s.

  70. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 2:02 am
    "Except the New Testament `replaced` the Old Testament (Torah) for the Christians"

    going back to crakr calling my examples absurd, they might be extreme examples of people who claim god spoke to them, but you christians know how to chop and chance to suit your argument as well don`t you? is the bibble the word of god or not? and how come one part of it isn`t "used" but the other is? what, only half of what god you have to listen to?
  71. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 4:48 am
    Uhmm no, I was citing an instance that I believe to be a miracle, that initially seemed to be something unfortunate, that others like yourself would call a "coincidence".
    Simple question: How exactly would you separate a "miracle" from a coincidence? What exactly is the measuring stick for what is a miracle and what is not? Would it have been a coincidence if there were more people in traffic? Would it have been a coincidence if you forgot something you are more "likely" to forget?
  72. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 6:48 am
    HG: "I don`t mock him, but I do mock those that believe in him..."

    The nickname you use here mocks him, and you chose it intentionally to mock him and us.

    "I don`t intend that as mean."

    Yes, yes you do, that`s just the kind of mocking condescending assh*le you are. You think your sh|t doesn`t stink, but when you condescend and mock others, and believe that you do no wrong doing so, you`re stacking up those bricks of pride-fulness.

    One of these days, when you least expect it, that pride fall will happen, it will be devastating. You won`t be able to handle it because you have no clue how to humble yourself.

    You lack the maturity and wisdom to handle it. I really fear for you, because I`ve seen pride fall happen to others who thought they lived "charmed lives" as well. You may not be strong enough to dig yourself out from under those tons of bricks your stacking up right now.
  73. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 7:13 am
    "..sometimes the people with the worst lives are the ones most desperate to believe"

    So you think I live one of the "worst lives" eh? "desperate to believe", right? You assume too much.

    Keep stacking those pride bricks man, you`ll regret doing so later.

    "How exactly would you separate a "miracle" from a coincidence?"

    Meeting an old friend, after 20 years, randomly at somewhere would be coincidence. The miracle part has to do with the degree of fortune encountered or misfortune avoided.

    God didn`t move my keys, I`m aware that it was due to my own action that they were lost. But what influenced me to not put them where they belong? That I don`t know for sure, but I do believe God can influence people subtlety.

    What was learned is what`s important, maturity and wisdom were gained from it. Don`t let little things upset you, be patient, don`t let daily routine run your life.
  74. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 7:40 am
    @MrOrange: 10 people read "The Bible" and you`ll hear 10 different messages. It`s not a perfect book, eh? Nothing "of the world" is perfect = duh!

    Not that I believe that stuff, I`m a Deist, but that part of Christianity isn`t their biggest flaw, by far!

    Yes, God appears to have "changed his mind" several times in the OT. But since humans have literally NO idea what`s inside God`s mind? It`s OUR perspective that sees change.

    The "Old" was for God`s chosen people (The Hebrews) and the "New" is for all of humankind! I don`t see how that`s hard to follow...

    @HolyGod: Since God created everything, it`s entirely HIS business what he does with it, eh?

    We have no idea what happens after we die, do you? Does science? It`s ALL based on faith of one kind or another...
  75. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 7:56 am
    Crakr

    "One of these days, when you least expect it, that pride fall will happen, it will be devastating. You won`t be able to handle it because you have no clue how to humble yourself."

    PRIDE
    : the quality or state of being proud: as
    a : inordinate self-esteem : conceit
    b : a reasonable or justifiable self-respect
    c : delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship

    Don`t you find it a BIT f.ucked up that your god makes being proud a SIN? What kind of pathetic higher power needs credit for everything? Everything good that happens is because of god, but nothing bad is. Brilliant.

    That`s ok. You live your life on your knees metaphorically fellating an imaginary megalomaniac. I`ll live my life for me, the people I care about, and humanity.

    I guess we`ll find out who`s right eventually.
  76. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 8:33 am
    The miracle part has to do with the degree of fortune encountered or misfortune avoided.
    So very (un)fortunate things cannot occur by coincidence?
  77. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 8:36 am
    Crakr

    "So you think I live one of the "worst lives" eh? "desperate to believe", right? You assume too much."

    Well I only know from what you have spoken. I know you were homeless. You are now physically disabled to the point where you say you can`t even function enough to use a computer for work. You are poor. You have never mentioned a wife or kids.

    Are you happy with the way your life has turned out?

    I think people far too often get complacent with life because they don`t view it as finite. They just see it as a test or appetizer for eternal bliss in heaven.

    I live my life to the fullest I can because I believe this is it. Religious people sometimes are ok with a s.hitty lot because it is just temporary. That is why the ruling class and those in power encourage religion. It keeps the sheep in line.
  78. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 8:42 am
    Crakr

    "Meeting an old friend, after 20 years, randomly at somewhere would be coincidence."

    Well what if meeting that old friend keeps you an extra few minutes and you avoid a car accident. Then it becomes a miracle right?

    What if you lost your car keys and that CAUSES the accident. Now because it is a bad result instead of a good one it is just random coincidence?

    What if you wouldn`t have lost your keys? Maybe you would have gotten in that accident. Maybe you would have gotten a minor injury. Maybe you would have gone to the hospital and your nurse was the woman of your dreams. Maybe the two of you would have fallen in love and had a family. Maybe one of your children would have cured cancer. You losing your car keys could have been one of the worst things to ever happen to humanity.

    I`m not entirely joking. You never know what could happen.
  79. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 4:07 pm
    So very (un)fortunate things cannot occur by coincidence?
    @patchy: Good or Bad is a subjective, human thing. God works on an entirely different scale!
    Some "Bad Things" that happen (and @HolyGod pointed this sort of thing out) MIGHT lead to wonderful things down the road!

    Or not. We just don`t know!

    Likewise "Good Things" may end up having negative effects.

    In theory: "Only God Knows" but with "freewill"? I don`t know if even HE knows! He`s probably a really good guesser...
  80. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 10:17 pm
    HG: "Don`t you find it a BIT f.ucked up that your god makes being proud a SIN?"

    Not one bit, God has given you all your talents and abilities. He`s given us this planet and all it`s resources.

    But you don`t believe that. You give yourself all the credit and loudly boast of your accomplishments. But I wonder who you curse when things don`t go your way? Is it yourself? I really doubt it.

    So that when the time comes, when you meet your maker, like we all will, what will you say?
  81. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 17, 2013 at 11:05 pm
    Crakr

    "Not one bit, God has given you all your talents and abilities. He`s given us this planet and all it`s resources.

    But you don`t believe that. You give yourself all the credit and loudly boast of your accomplishments."

    So in your mind god decided I would be a successful talented graphic designer and god decided you would be an unemployed cripple?

    I`m successful because of my 20 hour days. I`m successful because I have studied everything I can. I didn`t win a lottery. I`m not a freak athlete or super model. I wasn`t BORN a talented graphic designer. I worked my ass off to perfect my craft. Why would I give that credit to your imaginary friend?

    "So that when the time comes, when you meet your maker, like we all will, what will you say?"

    Wow. I can`t believe you actually exist. Why didn`t you give us a guide that would have lead to a wonderful world instead of this book of fairytales, tests, and mind games?
  82. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 4:04 am
    Good or Bad is a subjective, human thing. God works on an entirely different scale!
    Special pleading. Besides, I wasn`t talking about God, I was asking how @crakr *knew* it was a miracle. He should be able to tell me how you can specifically differentiate one from a coincidence, otherwise it`s just an assumption, and Occam`s razor would obliterate the notion of miracle.
  83. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 5:43 am
    HG: "So in your mind god decided I would be a successful talented graphic designer.."

    No, you decided how to use your talents. Just as you decided to be an atheist. So when you meet him, instead of blaming him, because he did give us a steady guide, Jesus Christ, the only one you can blame is yourself.

    You chose not to understand, God didn`t chose for you, to be an atheist, graphic designer, etc..

    I don`t believe God has thrown in the towel with anyone, redemption is only a prayer away. Besides, Benjamin Franklin was in his 70s when the American Revolution started. You never know how or when circumstances may change.
  84. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 5:55 am
    patch: "He should be able to tell me how you can specifically differentiate one from a coincidence.."

    Even the Catholic church has completely defined what a "miracle" is and they are all about solid definitions of what is good and bad.

    But if you want the dictionary version: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency."

    Was it "natural" for me to loose my keys? No. And science can`t explain it either. Now initially it wasn`t a "welcome" event, but it was later in my car.

    I would add, to that definition, that miracles usually have a lesson involved, something that has a positive impact on your attitude about life and God.
  85. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 9:33 am
    Crakr

    "And science can`t explain it either."

    SCIENCE CAN`T EXPLAIN HOW YOU LOST YOUR CAR KEYS?

    Yes. Science can. You put them somewhere and forgot where.

    TA DA!

    What science can`t explain is how you could actually be dumb enough to say that.
  86. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6910 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 9:35 am
    Crakr

    "God didn`t chose for you, to be an atheist"

    According to you god did choose for me to be rational and intelligent. He chose for me to have common sense. He chose for me not to believe in absurd things without quantifiable indisputable proof. So I would argue he DID choose for me to be an atheist.
  87. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33124 posts
    September 18, 2013 at 7:50 pm
    I didn`t win a lottery.
    @HolyGod: Well, you won the "genetic lottery" eh? And the "Born In The USA" lottery.
    You`re not disease stricken.
    You`re not in the 3rd world.
    Pretty lucky! All in all.
    (I know! You mean "win the lottery for money" I get that. I`m just saying there`s other "lotteries" you`ve sort-of "won".)

    I was asking how @crakr *knew* it was a miracle
    @patchy: Well, yeah, I have no idea on that!
    Other than: "Faith" eh?
    I was just offering a "general purpose guide" to such things. "Miracle" implies something "good" yes? Which (I think) is not how "God operates", just how we view things.

    God "allows" things to happen, both good and bad. It`s just how He rolls.
  88. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 19, 2013 at 1:05 am
    HG: "Yes. Science can. You put them somewhere and forgot where."

    Science still has no idea exactly how synapses and the brain works.

    So what caused me to forget? What caused me to misplace them in the first place? Not even a PhD. neurologist can really explain that with any degree of certainty.

    "He chose for me not to believe in absurd things without quantifiable indisputable proof."

    You have no "quantifiable indisputable proof" that God doesn`t exist. Even science has acknowledged that man`s nature is to have some kind of "faith", and that it is advantageous for societies to have a common faith.

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