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Date: 08/21/13 03:20 PM

79 Responses to The Work Vs Welfare Study 2013 [Pic+]

  1. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 3:21 pm
    Link: The Work Vs Welfare Study 2013 - Can a home owner get on this????
  2. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:05 pm
  3. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:27 pm
    Let`s get rid of welfare. I`m game.

    Can we replace it with government work programs? And government subsidized minimum living wage?

    We take care of children, the elderly, and handicapped. Then everyone else works for a living and is able to survive on it.

    0% unemployment and no more government hand outs.
  4. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:40 pm
    #1 Hawaii Is said beacause no taxes are paid is the equivilant of making $60,000 a year!!! WTF!! I know it`s expensive there but I wanna live in Hawaii for free too!!!
  5. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:41 pm
    Yes, a welfare for work program is fine. But you can`t guarantee jobs. That`s why the US government is so much less efficient than others, you can`t fire anyone. This would be an even more extreme version of that if it`s guaranteed employment. People not afraid of losing their jobs (at all) are bad workers.
  6. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:49 pm
    I actually read this earlier today; it`s a follow-up on their 1995 study. Unfortunately, they pretty much came to the same conclusion: the incentive for unskilled workers is not to work.
  7. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:52 pm
    HumanAction

    "the incentive for unskilled workers is not to work."

    Well OF COURSE. It is $7 and hour with no benefits. Would you work for that? Wouldn`t it make more sense to make working MORE appealing instead of trying to make welfare LESS appealing?
  8. Profile photo of Lord_Jereth
    Lord_Jereth Male 40-49
    725 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:53 pm
    You wanna de-insentivise welfare? How about instead of taking it away from folks who can`t afford it, we make it so that folks can earn a decent wage in this country? The cost of living has sky-rocketed over the last 30-40 years, yet the minimum wage has remained relatively stagnant over that same period of time. Instead of taking food out of the mouths of folks who can`t help themselves we make it so that a family can live above the poverty level with only one income, again? How`s the for a novel idea?

    8-) LJ
  9. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:54 pm
    Andrew155

    "Yes, a welfare for work program is fine. But you can`t guarantee jobs."

    Yes you can. I don`t care what the job is. Dig a hole and fill it back up. Do it or you starve to death. But give people the opportunity to learn skills and work their way up.

    Why can`t we put welfare recipients and the unemployed to work RIGHT now fixing infrastructure and cleaning up cities?

    They get prisoners to work you don`t think they can get welfare recipients to?
  10. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:55 pm
    LordJareth

    "the minimum wage has remained relatively stagnant over that same period of time. "

    WRONG.

    It has gone DOWN relative to inflation.
  11. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 4:55 pm
    A government subsidized minimum living wage and government work/educational programs would not be eliminating welfare. Sure it would put people to work, but not in the private sector. Public sector jobs do not add to the GDP, unsubsidized private sector jobs are what is needed.

    Also, all a higher minimum wage does is increase inflation and the cost of living. It`s the market determines what a dollar is really worth. The more money you dump into the banking system the less the dollar is worth. It`s supply and demand.

    Plus what Andrew just said, guaranteed employment would be a disaster.
  12. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:02 pm
    the incentive for unskilled workers is not to work.

    Unskilled?!?! It give more than most entry level teachers! Welfare is paying more than a lot of friggen jobs and it`s rate is growing where`s the motivation to actually work? This is why you see people buying groceries with a $70 dollar nail job they`ve made it a career! My states the equiv of 50k a year most people out of college don`t even f**king get that!
  13. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:03 pm
    @HolyGod

    Wouldn`t it make more sense to make working MORE appealing instead of trying to make welfare LESS appealing?
    Sure, that sounds wonderful. May I ask how?

    Instead of taking food out of the mouths of folks who can`t help themselves we make it so that a family can live above the poverty level with only one income, again? How`s the for a novel idea?
    Sounds lovely. What specifically do you recommend to create this nirvana on Earth?
  14. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:04 pm
    CrakrJak

    "A government subsidized minimum living wage and government work/educational programs would not be eliminating welfare. Sure it would put people to work, but not in the private sector. Public sector jobs do not add to the GDP, unsubsidized private sector jobs are what is needed."

    Let`s say someone right now can make $30,000 a year on welfare or work at mcdonalds for $20,000 a year.

    Wouldn`t it be better if that person took the job at mcdonalds for $20,000 and the government paid them $10,000 in housing or food stamps or welfare?

    That way the government saves, $20,000, mcdonalds can afford to operate normally, it is a private sector job, and the employee learns self reliance and hopefully works their way up.

    Where is the downside?
  15. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:05 pm
    @McGovern

    It give more than most entry level teachers!
    Exactly - unskilled workers. ;-)
  16. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:05 pm
    HumanAction

    "Sure, that sounds wonderful. May I ask how? "

    | | | |
    v v v v
  17. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:17 pm
    @HolyGod

    Where is the downside?
    The downside is that the would-be employee still has more incentive not to work; incentive is not merely measured in dollars.

    Consider a single-mother with those odds. If she works for the $20k, then while at work, she will need to find a babysitter. This either costs money or convenience. Additionally, the incentive of leisure must surely have some value.

    Don`t get me wrong, I`m not saying that there exists a perfect solution. Additionally, I honestly believe that the overwhelming majority want to work; however, the temptation not to work is simply too great. This doesn`t make them a bad person as they are acting rationally and in their families` best interest.

    That being said, we must acknowledge that it is a trap more so than a stopgap. They gain no skills or experience by being on welfare; they become stuck.
  18. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:25 pm
    HumanAction

    For sure. However in my scenario the sit on your ass option is off the table.
  19. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:28 pm
    @HolyGod

    However in my scenario the sit on your ass option is off the table.
    I see - that was not made abundantly clear. What would you do with people who simply refuse to work?
  20. Profile photo of botfly
    botfly Male 50-59
    616 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:35 pm
    @ HumanAction
    Let them die.
  21. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:38 pm
    Let them die.

    Oh boy, bring on the liberal hyperbole.
  22. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:42 pm
    HumanAction "I see - that was not made abundantly clear. What would you do with people who simply refuse to work?" I`m a compassionate dude. I believe EVERYONE deserves a basic quality of life. However if you are 18, mentally capable, physically capable, and have a job available that will sustain you? And they refuse to work? F.uck em. Sorry. My compassion only goes so far. "
  23. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    @HolyGod

    And they refuse to work? F.uck em. Sorry. My compassion only goes so far.
    This seems like a massive departure from your typical ideology. Even I would not be so cruel.

    Also, your proposition sounds remarkably close to the modified negative income tax I`ve proposed before (that you`ve opposed). The only difference I can see is that I proposed a stipulation forcing the guaranteed income limit to a percent lower than a full-time minimum wage recipient (so as to insure the incentive to work remains intact).

    Have you changed your mind on my proposition?
  24. Profile photo of Agent00Smith
    Agent00Smith Male 18-29
    2581 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 6:57 pm
    How about lowering welfare and raising the minimum wage?
  25. Profile photo of korahn
    korahn Male 30-39
    1324 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 7:04 pm
    Welfare is good for families who are literally struggling or can`t find work. We were in that boat for a while. Luckily they also helped me locate employment by asisting me with resumes, providing employment skills courses, etc. Happy to say the wife and I have been working consistently for over 3 years now with the only assistance being medical coverage for dental/vision (as 35 hrs per week is still ineligible for benefits.)
  26. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36872 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    I don`t mind the current benefits people receive.
    But there should be term limits. It can`t be a lifestyle. X number of years and you are cut off. That gives plenty of time to do career training {which is also free} or get your baby old enough to go to school so you are free`d up to go to work.
  27. Profile photo of handimanner
    handimanner Male 60-69
    2095 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 8:18 pm
    The Cato Inst. What do you expect? Like Fox only more vile.
  28. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 8:20 pm
    ...make it so that a family can live above the poverty level with only one income, again? How`s the for a novel idea?
    It`s certainly not novel, nor is it even a good idea. When the government says employers must pay workers more than they`re worth, all it does is ensure that young unskilled workers can`t find work at all.
  29. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14657 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 8:27 pm
    Simple- tax welfare. lololol
  30. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33147 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 8:40 pm
    However if you are 18, mentally capable, physically capable, and have a job...
    @HolyGod: Really?
    WHO decides who`s "mentally" capable or not?
    WHO decides who`s "physically" capable or not?
    WHO decides what an "appropriate job" is?

    The Government? Like... they ALREADY DO? What you describe is EXACTLY the current system that you RAGE against!
    Laughing My Ass Off! At you, bro, not `with you`.

    YOU slander others for `not working`? But now you "turn around" and make ALL SORTS of allowances?

    And they refuse to work? F.uck em. Sorry. My compassion only goes so far
    Oh, I see now! If they fail to meet YOUR standards they can just DIE! How... liberal of you!
    You ARE aware that "corporate welfare" is currently 3X as much $$ as "social welfare"... right? That for every "welfare dollar" a "lazy bum" gets? Some big company (usually ban
  31. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33147 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 8:50 pm
    (...usually banks) gets $3?

    Furthermore: It costs almost as much $$ to RUN various "welfare programs" as it grants in "benefits"!!!

    #1 WHO do you think got all that YUMMY "Obama Stimulus Money"? Hint: not the poor... not the middle class...

    #2 WHO do you think pays DISPROPORTIONALLY for things like "gasoline tax" and "utilities tax" and "sales tax"?
    Hint: It`s not the "rich"... it`s not the "middle class"...

    You`ve completely done a 180 (as @HumanAction has correctly pointed out!) in your position.

    Please explain.

    Note: I personally have gone on the "Disability" recently. I am both physically AND mentally unable to work. So? @HolyGod: Should I get "benefits" or simply be left to die?

    I was unemployed for 3+ YEARS before (2003-2007 apx) and got... NOTHING! NO disability, NO welfare! NO insurance! Zip, Zilch! Nada!

  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 10:39 pm
    HumanAction

    "This seems like a massive departure from your typical ideology."

    This has been my opinion since as long as I can remember. I was raised by a fiscal conservative who is a disciple of Ayn Rand.

    Perhaps when we had pie in the sky theoretical debates about redistributing wealth over a billion dollars but I never intended that to be a serious realistic suggestion, just an interesting hypothetical.

    I hate something for nothing welfare.

    I am pretty right on some fiscal issues.

    "Even I would not be so cruel."

    I don`t see how it is cruel. You give everyone an opportunity. If they don`t want to take it then you can`t force them.

  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 10:43 pm
    HumanAction

    "
    Also, your proposition sounds remarkably close to the modified negative income tax I`ve proposed before (that you`ve opposed). The only difference I can see is that I proposed a stipulation forcing the guaranteed income limit to a percent lower than a full-time minimum wage recipient (so as to insure the incentive to work remains intact).

    Have you changed your mind on my proposition?"

    I don`t remember specifics. Send me a link. Usually when you and I disagree on financial issues it is over universal healthcare which I still maintain is a basic human right.

    So that probably came up in one of those debates.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 10:50 pm
    HumanAction

    My positions are pretty simple:

    Anyone with a full time job should be able to survive off of their job. If companies can`t pay their workers that much then they can apply to have employee wages subsidized.

    Heathcare should be covered for everyone as a basic human right.

    Children, the elderly, and the disabled should be taken care of.

    Childcare / preschool should be subsidized for low income families.

    Education should be taken care of and college should be cheap and accessible to everyone.

    Everyone who wants a job should have a job whether it is painting a bridge or filling potholes.

    Make sure low income areas have affordable housing and food by having those businesses be non profit and staffed by subsidized former welfare recipients.

    Eliminate all other welfare.
  • Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 10:55 pm
    When welfare is more lucrative than getting paid minimum wage it says more about corporate greed and how criminally low the minimum wage in this country is.

    Because if you believe living off of welfare is the high-life then you are just plain high, period.
  • Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33147 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 11:06 pm
    Children, the elderly, and the disabled should be taken care of.

    Liar.
  • Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33147 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 11:09 pm
    @Sleepyhallow: Huh? What?

    Making more money off welfare than minimum wage... so the solution is to INCREASE minimum wage?

    You make NO sense at all! DANG! You be high boy!
  • Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13631 posts
    August 21, 2013 at 11:41 pm
    Uk many folk on benefits are better off than the workers
    Its ludicrous, free house, free council tax, rent paid, and a shedload of cash for food and essentials, to such a extent my neighbours, who dont work feck off to spain twice a year on holidays - tell me thats right?
  • Profile photo of McDuff73
    McDuff73 Male 30-39
    870 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 4:02 am
    @ferdyfred the average benefits payout in the uk amounts to between £6.500 and £7.500, average wages in the uk is £26.500, the majority of benefits are paid to people in employment to subsidise pooe wages and the biggest proportion of benefits is pensions for the elderly.
  • Profile photo of McDuff73
    McDuff73 Male 30-39
    870 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 4:23 am
    ** majority of working age benefits are paid to people in employment**
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 5:52 am
    When welfare is more lucrative than getting paid minimum wage it says more about corporate greed and how criminally low the minimum wage in this country is.

    Ya so you raise the min wage significantly then where`s the motivation to get educated and a skill? What it says is our system is setup by politicains for dependence to buy votes. Go on unemployment and such and they`ll have you go to a meeting at said meeting they don`t give you advice on how to get a job they give you advice on how to apply for more benafits.....

    Because if you believe living off of welfare is the high-life then you are just plain high, period.

    Ummm did you look at the numbers for the top states? How much do you make a year?

  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4095 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 6:30 am
    McGovern. Not everyone is going to have a skilled job. There aren`t enough Jobs in the world to give every skilled person a guarenteed good paying job. What about the people that ARE going to be stuck flipping burgers? There`s no reason to hold them back with a low wage at all. The general wealth spread needs to change. The ultra rich can be a little less rich to make the poor a little more wealthy.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 6:37 am
    @HolyGod

    There are some cases where the incentives are to not work, even if the person is capable. Your response, without saying so blatantly, reeks of the "let them die" stance you`ve so often chastised.

    Here is a Negative Income Tax. Ideally, it would replace all other forms of redistribution. My only additions to it are that the marginal tax be a flat rate and that the threshold be below the market floor.

  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 6:46 am
    @HolyGod

    As for the other points, we have a:

    Department of Defense that offends instead of defending;
    Department of Education that does not educate;
    Department of Transportation that does not transport anything;
    Department of Labor that has no laborers;
    Department of the Treasury that guards debt, not treasure;
    Internal Revenue Service that taxes instead of creating revenue.

    Yet, somehow, you anticipate that the Department of Health and Human Services (the welfare department) will provide health and services? C`mon.
  • Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4095 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:30 am
    @Human

    SO what`s the solution? The Private sector has had 50+ years to enact something and they haven`t. I refuse to believe let`s just do nothing because Government won`t get it right either.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:43 am
    @normalfreak

    SO what`s the solution?
    My compromise would be the negative income tax linked below with the stipulations I`ve added.

    The Private sector has had 50+ years to enact something and they haven`t.
    Good one. The private sector has steadily been encroached upon for the last 70 years. The public sector has grown considerably in that time. Do you suppose things have gotten better or worse in that timeframe? The further we move towards public sector, the worse off we become; that is, if history is any indication.

    I refuse to believe let`s just do nothing because Government won`t get it right either.
    Doing something for the sake of doing something is a fools errand. Something should only be done when it will yield the preferred results; less that, doing nothing is the preferred option.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:44 am
    @normalfreak

    Your latest comment makes no sense. The private sector never has been a static entity, never will be. To your earlier comment, from 1960-2000 95% of people who started out in the bottom 20 percentile of income will have moved up to a higher quintile. Even for the 5% who don`t move up their quality of life still improves. In essence the poor were indeed getting richer.
  • Profile photo of Wendypants
    Wendypants Female 30-39
    2420 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:44 am
    Taxing, work incentives... welfare is out of control with way too many people abusing it and so too many truly needful families/people going without or insufficient help.
    All WELFARE recipients (and some disability recipients) should absolutely HAVE to work X number of hours a week to get money. Period. Forget digging holes and filling them (or as Hitler did, dig ditches) for make work! Who can deny that there are sooooo many things that people could do? Pick up trash, clean up graffiti, work as school cross-walk guards, the list could be nearly endless!! Necessary jobs (not necessarily pretty, but so what?) that would improve the world for everyone worked by people that would be doing nothing else other wise.
  • Profile photo of Wundt
    Wundt Male 40-49
    410 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:52 am
    The moment I saw it was written by the CATO Institute I didn`t bother reading it. The CATO Institute has a long history of publishing biased and politically motivated `reports`. Nothing in this paper should be consider `fact`. If you are going to cite something, try using a source with a less biased point of view.

    And, before you get all `hot and bothered` by my comment... honestly, if I told you the paper was written by Think Progress or Huffington Post, would you give it any credibility?
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 7:57 am
    @Wundt

    If you are going to cite something, try using a source with a less biased point of view.
    One can have a biased point of view yet still be right. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Is there something specifically within the article that you dispute?

    I, for one, don`t like Huffington Post. I often find errors in their arguments and logic. That being said, if they put forth a study that I take no issue with, regardless of how much I disagree, I wouldn`t blindly dismiss it.

    You say Cato is biased? You should take a good look at the underlying reasons you have for dismissing them blindly. You may find that you are biased.
  • Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    579 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 8:23 am
    As a Catholic and a conservative, "let them die" is not an option for me. And I believe we do have great moral obligation to help and defend those who cannot do for themselves. That said, the system we have now is clearly grossly off. You cannot lift others up into prosperity by continually giving with no accountability. It`s exactly like feeding pigeons. You lefties want to regulate everything, how about a much tighter control on Welfare? I know that will never happen because that`s a big lefty voting base.
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 8:27 am
    ETB cards with 10k balances on record in MA.....but this is biased ya....

    Go to a welface line and observe what most of the pro leeches have for clothing, phones and Ect then tell me what you think.
  • Profile photo of lobibaby
    lobibaby Female 18-29
    8 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 8:35 am
    I don`t know about America`s welfare system since I can`t seem to find actual monthly benefit amounts anywhere, but a couple of articles I found put a monthly allowance for a family of four to be in a $900-1000 a month range. Hardly 15 dollars an hour.
    Here in Canada, I grew up in a family that depended on social assistance, and I know my mother would have to starve most days to feed my brother and I. And often this was with receiving benefits while my mother and father were both working. I also know the Disability system here in Canada as my husband has muscular dystrophy and uses a power wheelchair full time. A single person would receive approximately $760 monthly, assuming someone would be working a full 40 hour a week job, that would be $4.62 an hour. WAY below Ontario`s $10.25 an hour minimum wage.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 9:37 am
    papajon0s1

    "As a Catholic and a conservative, "let them die" is not an option for me."

    Nor me, which is where churches and charity come in. I just think the government and taxpayer`s obligation ends at a point.

    "And I believe we do have great moral obligation to help and defend those who cannot do for themselves."

    Absolutely. I covered those who cannot. I`m talking about those who can and choose not to.
  • Profile photo of mjy34222
    mjy34222 Male 50-59
    26 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 9:56 am
    The solution is simple. Raise wages to a livable level. The report does seem like an opinon in search of justification rather than a real study.
  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:11 am
    I have so many mixed feelings about Welfare, I just don`t know where to begin...

    I guess I`ll start by saying @McGovern1981:
    Using what someone is wearing is a poor judgement of what they can afford. Clothes can come as gifts from parents, etc. Individuals may have owned clothes before they came on hard times, etc. It`s really hard to judge except on an individual basis, which is where the honor system comes in. If you KNOW someone is committing welfare fraud, REPORT THEM. You can`t just throw blame and judgment around like you know every little detail of their lives because "this one time" anecdotes.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:16 am
    nubblins

    "You can`t just throw blame and judgment around like you know every little detail of their lives because "this one time" anecdotes."

    My girlfriend is a pharmacist. She sees people come in with medicaid all the time. They have their nails done. They have their hair done. They are wearing the newest clothes. They have nice jewelry. They have coach purses. They have the newest iPhone. People abuse THE F.UCK out of it, it isn`t just anecdotal.
  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:22 am
    Secondly, what I hate about the Welfare system is that it does reward people for having lots of children. But why shouldn`t it? Children are victims of their circumstance, not the criminals.
    For instance, I`ve been trying to get health coverage for my daughter, but it`s been a FIGHT. My boyfriend and my part-time job is JUST over the limit (I`m talking 20 dollars over) to qualify for state health insurance (changing Jan 2014 thanks to Affordable Care Act, hooray!). I can`t work more than part time because we don`t qualify for day care (insanely expensive without assistance). My part time job is minimum wage and his is almost triple what I make per hour, so working opposite hours is our only option (unless I quit my job which will put us under the limit). My checks scarcely are over 200$ and that`s how much our health insurance would cost PER PERSON through his work. Yikes. Yet all I`d have to do is pop out another kid and we`d be set. Freaking ridiculous, imho.
  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:24 am
    Getting your nails done is 26$ at the little Asian nail salons, and Coach bags are 100$


    These are not things that make you rich, you know.
    I have a lap top, several TVs, and I`m not rich.
    Rich compared to say most third and second world countries, but not as an American.
    I guess your girlfriend`s pharmacy job doesn`t convince me. People can have THINGS and still be struggling.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:37 am
    nubblins

    "Getting your nails done is 26$ at the little Asian nail salons, and Coach bags are 100$"

    Getting your nails done once a week at $26 is a luxury. Coach bags are not $100. Go to their website and find me a single bag under $300.

    "These are not things that make you rich, you know. I have a lap top, several TVs, and I`m not rich."

    Who said anything about RICH? DO you think welfare should be handed out to anyone who isn`t rich?

    I guess I thought welfare was for people who would be unable to feed, clothe, or house themselves without it. Not something that fed, clothed, and housed people so they could afford $26 manicures every week and $300 purses.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:40 am
    @nubblins

    You can be struggling if you`re buying a lot of cheap things you don`t need. Learn to make due without the painted nails or with a cheap phone like Nokia or Android Phone instead.
  • Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:43 am
    But why shouldn`t it?

    Because it creates a perverse incentive to put too little emphasis on actually RAISING the child. Making sure he/she becomes a functional adult who can market themselves to the general public, as opposed to one who gets by just asking for stuff for free.
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:46 am
    Getting your nails done is 26$ at the little Asian nail salons, and Coach bags are 100$
    FFS, where is the personal responsibility? Nails done? Coach bags? Multiple TVs?

    Sorry, if you are struggling, then these are not options.

    I am not struggling and these are not options. I don`t buy cable TV because it is expensive and poor value. I have one 32" Westinghouse TV. I get my hair cut about 6 times a year. I eat out maybe once a month.

    I forego these things not because I`m struggling, but because they are frivolous purchases. I might not have several TV`s, but if my truck dies tomorrow I can buy another slightly used truck with cash without dipping into my retirement accounts.

    Coach bags? Those should be somewhere after the "maxed my HSA, maxed my (Roth) IRA, maxed my 401k, have enough savings to pay next 3-6 months of bills" section of the priority list.
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 11:47 am
    When you`re living off of others tax money things like Getting your nails done is 26$ at the little Asian nail salons, and Coach bags are 100$ shouldn`t even be an option for something like an EBT card. It`s currently good as cash and many just continue to neglect their kids and spend it on nails, bags and ect.
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 12:02 pm
    EBT/SNAP was made by politicians becasue they said the term welfare and foodstamps were demeaning to buy votes. If you don`t want it to be demeaning get of friggen welfare and FFS let put limitations on what can be bought with it WTF we don`t need people using their EBT cards at a casino <--- (it`s been documented) they don`t obey common sense with these because it`s for votes open your friggen eyes!
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 12:31 pm


    Just take a look around and see the places that accept them.....
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 12:53 pm
    McGovern1981

    "Just take a look around and see the places that accept them....."

    Well, I don`t have a problem with that. You do? You can feed a family of 5 with a large pizza for $7. You`d be hard pressed to feed a family with $7 at a grocery store.
  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    You all are assuming life in the United States should be black and white, and it`s not. AS I said, 26 dollars to get your nails done is not going to make or break your family, but a 400$ a month medical plan IS. You guys are totally missing my point.

    My point was that judging other people by what you see them wear or own is ridiculous, seeing as anything can be a gift or even stolen god forbid. If you see welfare fraud, REPORT IT. Don`t bitch about it on the internet.

    I haven`t paid for a single TV that I own, in all honesty. They were given to us by family members who were upgrading. Same with my featureless LG flip phone. Not everyone buys poo frivolously. I mean, what are you going to do? Search through people`s receipts and scold them to spend their money more wisely? The government knows what you can and can`t buy via your income and how much should go to entertainment.

    And yes, some should go to entertainment. This is not feudal India. Though s
  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    Though some would like it so. *
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 2:10 pm
    @nubblins

    To avoid the feeling of personal attacks, let`s say that Jill is a taxpayer and Jack receives welfare.

    Jack is not entitled to any of Jill`s money; it is not Jack`s. The extent to which Jill has a moral obligation to support Jack is for those things necessary to sustain life.

    No matter how much Jack may want to see the Packers game, he has no right to demand that Jill pay for it. Jill may voluntarily decide to buy a ticket for Jack as charity, but that is well beyond her moral obligation.

    I`m sorry, but a manicure is not something people are entitled to; it is not critical to life. You have no right to a manicure. If you can afford one with your own money, then enjoy. Otherwise, don`t get a manicure.

    There are ways to entertain oneself without spending money. A person who is struggling to make ends meet should be expected to do those things.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 2:13 pm
    Perfect

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  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 2:14 pm
    @nubblins

    I understand that this sounds cruel, harsh, and extreme, but this entitlement attitude within our generation is suffocating.

    You would never reach into my pocket and take $26 to go buy a manicure. You wouldn`t reach into 26 pockets and take $1 each to go buy a manicure. Somehow, though, when it comes from tax dollars we act as though something else is happening; it`s not.

    When you spend tax dollars, you are reaching into everyone`s pocket. Please do so with humility and for only those things which you absolutely need.
  • Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6923 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 2:24 pm
    Perfect Again

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  • Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 4:52 pm
    I`m not on welfare. So your criticism is misplaced. I just think you are over generalizing and it`s tiring.

    It`s not about the manicure or Packers games or any of that. It`s about not judging people because YOU think they should be spending their money otherwise. That`s why I said (and I`ll grudgingly say it again, even though I hate repeating myself), the government EXPECTS you to use the help you get within the laws of Welfare, yet the only way to police it is if people aren`t pussies and don`t report those abusing the system. It`s not a perfect system, but generalizing because YOU don`t like YOUR (see: *everyone`s) tax dollars going to anecdotal "system abusers" isn`t fair to those who use it legitimately.
  • Profile photo of sabat22
    sabat22 Male 40-49
    4 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 5:10 pm
    How much does a single individual get on welfare in New York State (in most rural counties)?

    $337 per month. That is your total cash grant out of which you have to pay your rent and utilities. Note: $200 of that is the housing portion of your grant. If you do not have a housing expense (rent) you do not get it.

    $200 in food stamps per month.

    Medicaid. Yep, you do get health insurance (and this is a substantial benefit if you are sick.)

    Now we are a lefty, liberal state in New York. If you are a single individual and living in the majority of other states, you get no cash grant (yes, you get to be homeless), but you do get $200 in food stamps and medicaid.

    For all you folks who claim the poor have children to get more benefits, you are right in one regard. For that extra kid you get an additional $103 per month in your cash grant (plus a food stamp grant).
  • Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    @nubblins

    I`m not on welfare. So your criticism is misplaced.
    I was not criticizing you so much as I was the mentality that people on welfare are entitled to spend that money on entertainment and luxuries.

    I just think you are over generalizing and it`s tiring.
    I think you feel that people are entitled to other peoples money for non-necessities and it`s tiring.

    Again, I enjoy the ability to refer to anecdotal evidence because we are discussing philosophy and not case examples. My entire point, which I believe has been made quite obvious, is that no person should feel entitled to anything other than the basic necessities.

    This is in direct contrast to what you`ve said:

    When you are so poor that you need someone else`s money to survive, you should not be spending money on entertainment; accept it with grace and humility.
  • Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14657 posts
    August 22, 2013 at 10:25 pm
    In HK, we give them a home to keep them off the streets and enough money to physically survive, but if they want to live better than livestock, they need to work.
  • Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 23, 2013 at 5:44 am
    It`s about not judging people because YOU think they should be spending their money otherwise.

    It`s not their money! They did nothing for it so they shouldn`t get a say in what it`s for.

    Well, I don`t have a problem with that. You do? You can feed a family of 5 with a large pizza for $7. You`d be hard pressed to feed a family with $7 at a grocery store.

    LOL well there`s more than just that place I`d say you`re probably being sarcastic but there`s for example NAIL SALONS that take EBT!
  • Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    August 23, 2013 at 10:12 am
    Haven`t read any comments but i`m guessing that some think that decreasing welfare or removing it is the answer and there is nothing wrong with jobs that don`t pay enough for one to survive.
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