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Brutal Home Invasion Caught On Nanny Cam [Graphic]


New Jersey Police are still looking for the suspect. I hope they catch the POS. Story in the credits. Warning Violence

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Date: 06/25/13 03:07 PM

155 Responses to Brutal Home Invasion Caught On Nanny Cam [Graphic]

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:10 pm
    Link: Brutal Home Invasion Caught On Nanny Cam - New Jersey Police are still looking for the suspect. I hope they catch the POS. Story in the credits. Warning Violence
  2. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:21 pm
    Where`s Al and Jessie preaching for riots over this "hate crime" oh ya she`s white.....
  3. Profile photo of caper454
    caper454 Female 70 & Over
    511 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:36 pm
    It takes a special kind of scum to beat a woman and child like this. I suspect even this guy`s own mother would turn him in after watching the film.
  4. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36868 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:42 pm


  5. Profile photo of basketkase
    basketkase Male 18-29
    1183 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:46 pm
    mother draters.
  6. Profile photo of cclownn
    cclownn Male 18-29
    27 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:47 pm
    So did anything happen between these shots? To her, or he steal anything? Sorry got no volume.

    Too bad she didnt have a gun to put that drater down.
  7. Profile photo of Kegomatix
    Kegomatix Male 18-29
    1341 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:48 pm
    Holy f*ck... I really wish she would have been armed so she could have ended this worthless f*cks life.

    Oh wait, I`m sure one the Europeans here on IAB think that would be too extreme for this POS waste of a life.
  8. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:53 pm
    "Where`s Al and Jessie preaching for riots over this "hate crime" oh ya she`s white....."

    You are obsessed.
  9. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1128 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:55 pm
    My mate knows where I keep the bear spray, and the hammer.
  10. Profile photo of talon0325
    talon0325 Male 40-49
    382 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 3:58 pm
    Typical friggin I am a racist!. Those bastards should never have been brought here. They screw society and use the "racist" poo when they end up in court. Leave the blacks alone, for the most part they actually contribute to life. It`s these friggin I am a racist!s that give anyone a bad name
  11. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    FP - McG has a good point. The so called "leaders" of the black community would be quick to create a media storm if the colors were reversed. If the black community would stop playing along with those dips#its like AL and Jessie, they would be given more respect and accomplish more good, as opposed to further dividing the two races.
  12. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:11 pm

    I think almost everyone knows the difference between race and culture.

    But...

    It`s just easier to say "Effin NI@@ERS!
    Black culture in America is an abomination.
  13. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:15 pm

    Also...
    To all the pussies (mostly european) who "would gladly trade some freedoms for more safety" keep this in mind next time you think the police will keep you safe.

    The only one responsible for keeping you safe is you.
  14. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:22 pm
    TurdBurglar

    "To all the pussies (mostly european) who "would gladly trade some freedoms for more safety"

    I have NEVER seen anyone say they would trade freedom for safety. I have heard people say they would trade some PRIVACY for safety. Please realize there IS a difference.

    There is nothing anyone can do to protect you from something like this. You absolutely have to protect yourself. That means security doors, security systems, etc. I don`t see how a gun would have protected her in this situation. If she was a responsible gun owner her gun would be in a gun safe and probably upstairs.

    Don`t get me wrong, I wish she would have had a shotgun under the couch and put the guys face in the next room, but do you think her owning a gun would have made a difference in this specific situation? I don`t carry my gun on me at home and I don`t think many people do.
  15. Profile photo of skypirate
    skypirate Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:51 pm
    @HolyGod

    where have you been the last couple months? its been nothing but the freedom to have high bullet clipz and scary gunz vs the safety of kindergartners.
  16. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    HG - Neither one of us has enough info to say whether having a gun would have made difference in this specific situation. In your scenario a "responsible" gun owner has the weapon so far out of reach that it is useless.
    He was a big boy so he may have gotten thru the door in one swift kick, but for most people it would take a few loud seconds to gain entry. Plenty of time to run to the safe, lock the door of that room and grab the gun. For people without kids there is nothing wrong with leaving a cheap single shot shotgun out of the safe, assuming the shells aren`t in plain sight. Some of us have cpl`s and may have one on hand.

    My point is that there are plenty of scenerios where having a gun can save yourself and family...and I hear PLENTY of people on this site claim that guns should be illegal.
  17. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:58 pm
    @skypirate - They`re called magazines, not "clipz"
  18. Profile photo of BADOLDOG
    BADOLDOG Female 40-49
    108 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:58 pm
    And that is why you should own a large DOG....
    my border collie-lab mix once defended me against an attacker....pretty sure I`d be dead if it wasnt for my dog. The dogs I own now would have stopped that cretin at the door
  19. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 4:59 pm
    skypirate

    "where have you been the last couple months? its been nothing but the freedom to have high bullet clipz and scary gunz vs the safety of kindergartners."

    Excellent point. I suppose that would be trading a freedom for safety. My response was in regards to recent NSA debates.

    I actually happen to be someone who thinks fringe assault weapons and high capacity mags are an unnecessary freedom in relation to the harm they pose. To me this woman would have been better protected with a hand gun or shotgun than she would have been with an AR15 and 100 round barrel mag. To me that is only useful for shooting for fun or mass murder.

    However, I don`t want to turn this thread into a gun debate as hopefully everyone is on board with wishing she would have had a gun.
  20. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:04 pm
    turdburglar

    " For people without kids there is nothing wrong with leaving a cheap single shot shotgun out of the safe"

    Totally disagree. If my house got burglarized and someone stole my gun and then used it to kill someone I would always feel guilty. To me my number one responsibility as a gun owner is making sure nobody has access to it but me. That way I know it will only be used for defense. LOTS of guns used in crimes are stolen guns. Mine never will be.

    "I hear PLENTY of people on this site claim that guns should be illegal."

    Really? I always jump into gun debates on here head first. I can`t think of a single comment about outlawing all guns. People say they want to outlaw certain guns or accessories, but I`ve never heard anyone propose outlawing all guns.
  21. Profile photo of skypirate
    skypirate Male 18-29
    2422 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:04 pm
    They`re called magazines, not "clipz"

    guess you didnt catch the sarcasm there. I know the difference between a clip and a magazine, sorry to burst your bubble.
  22. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:06 pm
    HG: "I don`t see how a gun would have protected her in this situation."

    I do, He left her to go upstairs for awhile. If she had a hidden gun, like under the couch, she could`ve confronted him as he came back down.

    Btw, responsible gun owners teach their kids gun safety at an early age and not just rely on gun locks or safes.
  23. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:12 pm
    Some of you must have finger convulsions when you go to comment. I refuse to believe that those sentences could be consciously and intentionally produced.
  24. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:14 pm
    @skypirate - What bubble?

    @HG - I`m a responsible gun owner with no kids in the house, my guns only get locked up when I leave my place. When I`m home and lounging around in basketball shorts or something the gun`s in the holster that clips inside my waistband sitting in the drawer of my nightstand so it`s easily accessible.
  25. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:18 pm
    CrakrJak

    "I do, He left her to go upstairs for awhile."

    I never saw that. Certainly could have happened between cuts, but the video didn`t show it that I saw.

    "Btw, responsible gun owners teach their kids gun safety at an early age and not just rely on gun locks or safes."

    She has a three year old. You are going to teach a three year old gun safety and trust her not to reach under the couch and play with a shotgun? Jesus Christ I hope you don`t have kids.
  26. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:18 pm
    I have NEVER seen anyone say they would trade freedom for safety.
    Of course they don`t SAY it; they just vote that way. The problem is, when you vote Democrat, you lose freedom AND safety.
  27. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:21 pm
    whodat6484

    "I`m a responsible gun owner with no kids in the house, my guns only get locked up when I leave my place. When I`m home and lounging around in basketball shorts or something the gun`s in the holster that clips inside my waistband sitting in the drawer of my nightstand so it`s easily accessible."

    Do you lock it up EVERY time you leave? Even if you are just running to the store or something? If so, works for me. Kids make a huge difference and in this case she has them, as do I.
  28. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36868 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:24 pm

    OldOllie, "Democrat, you lose freedom AND safety."
    Yeah, GW Bush was such a hero of Freedom with his Patriot Act and wiping his ass with the Constitutuion. That is possibly the lamest thing you`ve ever said.
  29. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:27 pm
    OldOllie

    "when you vote Democrat, you lose freedom AND safety."

    Gross generalizations just ruin intelligent debates. How many Americans died under the last Republican`s watch as the current Democrat`s watch? Spin it however you want, but you can`t argue the numbers.

    Not to mention the GLARING loss of freedom that happened under Bush that Gerry just mentioned.

    Thinking ONE party is ALWAYS right and ONE party is ALWAYS wrong is the reason that the politics in this country are SO f.ucked. I decide on a case by case basis and I often agree with the republican stance, not as much admittedly, but often. If you DON`T decide for yourself then you are a f.ucking tool.
  30. Profile photo of mykunter
    mykunter Male 40-49
    2424 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:32 pm
    I live alone.
    My door is NEVER unlocked.
    I keep a .45 under the couch.
    I should probably get a shotgun for the bedroom.
  31. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:34 pm

    HG - I disagree first. Besides, you nit picked a fragment of a sentence from what I said. I still stand by that comment. It`s called using good judgement. My home defense shotgun is not locked up but is hidden very well and still accessible to me. The shells are near by, also hidden.

    The point I was making is that being responsible doesn`t mean hiding your weapons away so far that they are unusable.

    I am not sure what IAB you have been to in the last year, but there are plenty of people (mostly european) who think that only the police should have guns. You must be so blinded by your own point of view if you can say you have NEVER heard that said here at IAB.
  32. Profile photo of IAFYM
    IAFYM Female 18-29
    136 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:41 pm
    turdburglar - I`m European (actually, I`m not, I`m British - Not all Europeans are the same - nor are our laws or ideologies. Europe the continent is much too diverse to say something as broad reaching as what you have. Europe is also not a country.) and I would never ever ever trade freedom for safety, nor would any of my friends, colleagues or (and I do hope) my fellow countrymen. Remember that the USA is not the only country on earth that treats freedoms with such high regard.

    HG - Nor would I, or those I know trade some privacy for safety - but I get the feeling some would or we are made to believe they would by the media.

    On topic of the video, this guy is scum. It`s a shame she was alone and without means to defend herself. I hope he is quickly caught and sent to prison for some considerable time.
  33. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    IAFYM

    "Nor would I, or those I know trade some privacy for safety"

    Let`s say there was a particular area with a high rate of muggings and gang activity. The government installs video cameras in the area. Muggings and gang activity drop substantially, but average citizens are also recorded.

    Now some people say that is an invasion of privacy, but to me that is a reasonable privacy to lose for the increase of safety. That is what I`m saying.
  34. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 5:49 pm
    "Do you lock it up EVERY time you leave? Even if you are just running to the store or something?"

    Yup, I have a SIG P220 that`s my "everyday carry" so that`s pretty much always on me. Everything else (Colt M1911, Bushmaster, Mossberg 12ga & 30-06) are locked up unless I`m taking the to the range. But, when I`m home the safe is unlocked, kind of pointless to have guns locked in a safe when you`re there. I`m pretty sure if some f*ck-knuckle like this guy broke in he wouldn`t wait while I was opening the safe before he came after me.
  35. Profile photo of IAFYM
    IAFYM Female 18-29
    136 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:09 pm
    HG - Yes, that`s a fair point and we do have a number of CCTV cameras but one could argue that there is no privacy in public.

    I personally think the cameras are mainly used to generate revenue for the local councils; as they catch people in vehicles doing silly things (not referring to speed cameras) rather than crime detection. (Street lighting is a better deterrent than cameras anyway)
  36. Profile photo of handimanner
    handimanner Male 60-69
    2095 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:13 pm
    In this case, I wonder if a gun could have been reached before the initial assault. The goon left the room several times and a gun could have been grabbed and would have been a happier ending to see this turd get about three rounds.
    I`m fervently anti-gun/violence so the above statement is kind of a contradiction. It`s so sad to see this, my heart goes out to that poor woman. As Richard Pryor said, "I`ve performed in prisons and I`ve only got one thing to say....thank god there`s prisons."
  37. Profile photo of jeepjones
    jeepjones Male 30-39
    554 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:14 pm
    Like a bear, pretend your dead.
  38. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:18 pm
    @HolyGod

    If my house got burglarized and someone stole my gun and then used it to kill someone I would always feel guilty.
    Not trying to be smart, but out of curiosity, if someone stole a hammer from your house and used it to kill someone, would you also feel guilty? Or, let`s say it was a samurai sword - another object without a commonplace use.

    I ask because I would not feel guilty if someone stole my gun and used it in a murder and I think there is a fundamental divide in how we view firearms.
  39. Profile photo of BBJellyFish
    BBJellyFish Male 18-29
    550 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:43 pm
    I hope he dies a slow, painful, death. drating n/igger
  40. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:47 pm

    IAFYM - IAB doesn`t give me any specific country, it only says europe. In real life I treat everyone as individuals. Online is different. British, french, whatever...different turds, same s#ithole. Besides, there is no shortage of europeans here that stereotype all Americans.
  41. Profile photo of mentott510
    mentott510 Male 60-69
    210 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 6:53 pm
    I work in a state prison. This guy will get his butt kicked when he is in jail. Beating down a mother in front of her infant child is right up there with sexual offenders on the no respect list.
  42. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:14 pm
    If find it kind of ironic that someone will say something like If my house got burglarized and someone stole my gun and then used it to kill someone I would always feel guilty.* as an argument for gun control, but does not feel guilty for taking the right of others to defend their life and their families.

    *not necessarily directed squarely at HG
  43. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:14 pm
    "when you vote Democrat, you lose freedom AND safety."

    Red states have higher crime rates.
  44. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:16 pm
    "If she had a hidden gun, like under the couch, she could`ve confronted him as he came back down. "

    Holy hell. What responsible parent would put a gun at ground level?
  45. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:19 pm
    HumanAction

    "out of curiosity, if someone stole a hammer from your house and used it to kill someone, would you also feel guilty?"

    Totally valid point. Definitely. Feels different even though I can`t quite put a finger on it.

    1. I would probably never KNOW about the hammer murder where as with a gun it could be traced back to me and I would find out.

    2. I take protecting my gun from others as an almost sacred responsibility where I don`t feel that way about a hammer.

    3. I don`t view hammers as "innocent bystander" weapons. A hammer can kill someone, but usually only someone specific for a specific reason. You don`t typically see drive bys, robberies, muggings, home invasions, etc committed with a hammer.

    4. Anybody can easily go buy a hammer, so it isn`t as if not getting mine would have in ANY way stopped them.

    Excellent question though. I guess I just view guns and bombs as mass murder waiting to happ
  46. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:21 pm
    MrPeabody

    "If find it kind of ironic that someone will say something like "If my house got burglarized and someone stole my gun and then used it to kill someone I would always feel guilty" as an argument for gun control,"

    Just to clarify I DEFINITELY do not think that is an argument for gun control, just an argument for keeping your guns locked up when you aren`t home.
  47. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:42 pm
    Yeah, GW Bush was such a hero of Freedom with his Patriot Act
    Yeah, ya got me there, Gerry. I totally forgot how Bush passed the Patriot Act all by himself by executive order, and Congress didn`t have a thing to do with it. Wait...what?
  48. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 7:50 pm

    OldOllie - I think the point trying to be made was that anybody who completely agrees 100% with any side is a tool. Doesn`t matter if it`s republican or democrat, which are both opposite extremes. You come across as a republican tool. Chalket is the democratic tool. Truth and sanity are always someplace in between.
  49. Profile photo of PTPete
    PTPete Female 30-39
    1236 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 8:14 pm
    I feel sick.I grew up in So.Central L.A., we always locked our homes up tight & remained cautious of anyone coming to our doors--of course, right? Bad neighborhood, makes sense.
    I now live in a very nice suburb & am AMAZED at how little my neighbors practice security/good sense when it comes to their safety. Unlocked cars, homes; windows wide open. Where do you think criminals go to steal? There`s nothing to steal in the pooty areas, let me tell you!

    These days, I have mace, blades & a gun hidden throughout my home (no kids). Living in a nice area doesn`t guarantee your safety--only you can do that, & only to a certain extent.

    I am NOT blaming her for this atrocity; sometimes we`re just lulled into a false sense of security. I`m so very glad she`s alive & the kids weren`t physically harmed. I`m kinda rambling now, but I do want to share one thing about having guns in the home: my husband & I are the ONLY people who know that we have them.
  50. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 8:59 pm
    @HG
    I figured that, but your quote was convenient at the time, and thus my footnote:
    *not necessarily directed squarely at HG
  51. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:00 pm
    @crapbandit
    Nice try, but you are waaaay off base there, buddy. I am about as much a "democratic tool" as you are a reasonable and intelligent person (as in "not at all" in case you missed the point yet AGAIN). I am certainly a liberal, no doubt about it. I tend to lean Democrat, but there is much I dislike about the Democratic party in general and some Democrats in particular, including Obama. In fact, I`ve emailed complaints to him at the White House (in one I called him "a spineless closet Republican" lol I wonder how many lists that got me on?).

    "Truth and sanity" just sounds plain funny when it comes from you.
  52. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:06 pm
    @PTPete
    I do want to share one thing about having guns in the home: my husband & I are the ONLY people who know that we have them.

    (Assuming they are legal)
    You can`t forget the government, any `news` paper that decides to publish your name and address as a gun owner, and well now the internet.
  53. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:23 pm
    Ollie

    "Bush passed the Patriot Act all by himself by executive order, and Congress didn`t have a thing to do with it. Wait...what?"

    Debating you is like wrestling water. I mentioned bad things that happened under Reagan and you credited it to democrats in congress. Good things that happened you credited to Reagan. Good things under Clinton you credited to republicans in congress. Now bad things under bush are due to democrats in congress. Meanwhile EVERYTHING that happens under Obama is Obama`s fault.

    You really are so divisively polarized it is shocking. Do you ever sit back and think how full of s.hit you are? You are like the poster boy for political lemmings that keep pundits in business, news channels fighting to be inflammatory instead of informative, create an atmosphere of zero compromise, and send candidates running for the extremes during primaries. In short you represent almost everything that is wrong with American politics today.
  54. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:24 pm
    turdburglar

    "OldOllie - I think the point trying to be made was that anybody who completely agrees 100% with any side is a tool. Doesn`t matter if it`s republican or democrat, which are both opposite extremes. You come across as a republican tool."

    Brilliant.
  55. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:34 pm
    @turdburglar You haven`t really taken to that reading thing to well, have you? I`m a libertarian. I very rarely support Republicans except when they are dishonestly attacked by liberals, which is pretty much a daily occurrence here. Like when Gerry blamed Bush for the Patriot act when in fact it passed the House by a vote of 357 to 66 and the Senate by a vote of 98 to 1.

    Don`t get me wrong; I like Gerry, even those times when I disagree with him, but I`ll call him out whenever he says something that blatantly intellectually dishonest.
  56. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:41 pm
    OldOllie

    "I`m a libertarian. I very rarely support Republicans"

    So you voted for Gary Johnson, not Romney?

    I just can`t think of a single comment I`ve seen you make that wasn`t ABSOLUTE lockstep with the republican platform. I know there is some overlap, but man you come off as a hardline republican.

    What are issues you side with democrats about? Just curious. Because whenever someone accuses me of being captain liberal I can list off a whole list of issues where I side with republicans.
  57. Profile photo of sonofd
    sonofd Male 40-49
    66 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:48 pm
    This is why I have a gun in my home. I just can`t understand anyone who doesn`t.
  58. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2255 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:55 pm
    she should have peed or vomited on him! that SURLY would have stopped him, right mr vice pres?
  59. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 9:57 pm
    HG, first let me make one thing clear, I`m a libertarian, not a Libertarian. I side with Republicans on some issues, but I would be hard pressed to find a single issue where I side with Democrats. If you can think of an issue where you think libertarians agree with Democrats, I`ll be happy to point out where you`re wrong about that.

    Gary Johnson had already dropped out of the race when my state held its primary, so I never got the chance to vote for him. In the general election it was more important for me to cast a meaningful vote against Obama by voting for Romney than it was to waste my vote making a completely futile gesture by voting for Johnson.
  60. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:09 pm
    MelCervini

    "she should have peed or vomited on him! that SURLY would have stopped him, right mr vice pres?"

    Ahhhh. Another misinformed lemming from the right wing pundit sphere. Welcome.

    That suggestion is from the Rape Aggression Defense (RAD) systems class curriculum created by an international organization of certified law enforcement instructors. As ridiculous as it sounds it actually has a lot of data to back it up.

    Biden said to get a SHOTGUN for home protection.

    “if you want to protect yourself, get a double barrel shotgun.”

    But that`s cool, just go with the narrative you were spoon fed. Jehovah forbid you have the vaguest inkling about what you speak.
  61. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:19 pm
    Biden said to get a SHOTGUN for home protection.
    He also said to go out and fire two rounds in the air from your balcony or just shoot through the door, both of which would be stupid, dangerous, ineffective, and illegal.
  62. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:19 pm
    OldOllie

    "libertarians agree with Democrats, I`ll be happy to point out where you`re wrong about that."

    I shouldn`t have said "dempcrats" I guess as democrats are virtually indistinguishible from republicans in a lot of ways. However here are some ways I think "liberals" are like libertarians:

    Gay marriage
    Keeping religion out of government
    Keeping religion out of school
    Against american imperialism
    Against most american involvement in other countries
    Legalized drugs
    Legalized prostitution
    Legalized gambling
    Proper sex education
    Abortion
    Anywhere else where religion or forced "morality" encroach on an individual`s life.
  63. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:21 pm

    OldOllie - Not a republican? I`ll be damned. I won`t deny that you may be libertarian because I don`t care what that means. Personally, I take form my own opinions without guidance form any party. Which is why I keep my nose out of the vast majority of political discussions. Most people form opinions based on party lines (you), what their emotions lead them to believe, or on the biased knowledge fed to them by others (based on party lines). I realize I spew a lot of s#it here at IAB, but 95% is nonpolitical. Firearms and gun control is the one political subject I do consistently weigh in on.
    On the other hand you appear to take a definite, right wing, unchanging, unwilling to reconsider, [email protected] you if you disagree with me stance on damn near everything.
    Excuse me if I made the mistake of confusing you for a republican.
  64. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:29 pm

    Chalket - I am simply glad that I was able to make you mad. Now take your anger with me and turn it into sympathy for criminal. One who was unfairly shot by some a$$hole protecting his family...like a good tool.
  65. Profile photo of MelCervini
    MelCervini Female 50-59
    2255 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 10:56 pm
    I stand corrected on the pee/vomit source, which is still ludicrous to suggest no matter the source... I got my idiot quotes mixed up... right.. fire a double-barrel shotgun in the air as a warning shot... illegal, stupid and highly HIGHLY irresponsible to shoot a deadly weapon without knowing there the projectiles go. You pick up a gun, you use it as its intended.. its not a "warning device".
  66. Profile photo of Dead-Kittens
    Dead-Kittens Male 30-39
    1128 posts
    June 25, 2013 at 11:02 pm
    With all the debate about having a gun handy and running and locking herself in her room to get it out f the safe...did everyone miss the part where her 3 year old daughter was there too? obviously no guns in the living room...obviously shes goingfor her daughter before a gun upstairs... and (I know sexist lol) obviously maternal instincts kicked in she tried to plead... after the first volley of punches she was in no condition to do anything including run.

    Guns or otherwise there is no way to predict this. Home surveillance was a start..
  67. Profile photo of soundman655
    soundman655 Male 50-59
    1558 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:35 am
    Now That`s a I am a racist! !!!!
  68. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:42 am
    To bad it was New Jersey, not one cop with an I.Q. higher than a Hamster.
  69. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14656 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 1:41 am
    Someone`s about to get lynched by the popo, I think.
  70. Profile photo of Wendypants
    Wendypants Female 30-39
    2420 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 4:52 am
    MelCervini, I`d just guessed your first comment was sarcastic... wasn`t it?
    Deadkittens has it right too: 3 year olds and toddlers at home make putting a gun under your couch one of the STUPIDEST things a parent can do at home.
    I think it`s hard for most people to hear of this because (at least for myself) the instinctive response is to make sure that that guy no longer exists to harm anyone ever again... the best that anyone who is not a cop can do is to try and help catch the guy. Or help the family get past this?
    (Gotta try and resist the mob/lynching mentality).
  71. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 5:51 am
    shes lucky she didn`t get raped or worse. This is why my wife keeps a gun on her. All the time. Only in the states with gun control.
  72. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 6:17 am
    This is why my wife keeps a gun on her. All the time.
    How sad it must be to constantly live in fear to the point where you feel you must be armed at all times.
  73. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 6:29 am
    @FoolsPrussia

    HOLY BLIND PARTY SUPPORT!! If blue states have less crime how would you explain that they have the most violent cities like Detroit, Oakland-CA, and Chicago for example.... All King Obamas guides for gun control BTW.
  74. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 6:31 am
    All also great examples of "black culture" take a trip there and see for yourself.....
  75. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 7:47 am
    sheesh. I`ve lived alone since I was 24. Suburbs of Baton Rouge, Cincinnati, Baltimore and St. Paul. Always travel alone, too, to Mexico, Europe and all over the USA. I have NEVER felt the need to weaponize myself or my home. Sure, I lock my doors and all the simple safety things people do but nothing extreme. You gun people make it sound like you live in Syria for cripes sake. No thank you. I don`t want to live in fear like that.
  76. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 8:07 am
    To me this woman would have been better protected with a hand gun or shotgun than she would have been with an AR15 and 100 round barrel mag. To me that is only useful for shooting for fun or mass murder.
  77. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 8:16 am
    I`m a libertarian

    No, you are an objectivist. The difference is in what we view as an appropriate foreign and military policy.

    Keeping religion out of government

    Religion is going to influence government some way shape or form. What we don`t want is something like the Anglican Church or the Vatican.

    Keeping religion out of school

    Out of public school sensible, but if Catholics want their own privately operated schools then that`s their prerogative.

    Abortion

    I should point out that libertarian opinion is rather split on this issue. I lean pro-choice.
  78. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 8:19 am
    How sad it must be to constantly live in fear to the point where you feel you must be armed at all times.

    How sad it must be to constantly live in fear that your average, yet heavily armed, next door neighbor is going to come gunning you and/or your children down the next day.

    You gun people make it sound like you live in Syria for cripes sake. No thank you. I don`t want to live in fear like that.

    When in fact they tend to be mild mannered collectors.
  79. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 8:38 am
    Good one McGovern. :-)
  80. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:12 am
    @Cajun

    Good points; for instance, I lean pro-life.

    I think the real issue with trying to compare liberalism or conservatism to libertarianism is that most people (liberals, conservatives, and moderates) want the government to act in their own best interests.

    One of the best examples of this is gay marriage.

    The stereotypical liberal supports gay marriage and therefore wants the government to legalize it.
    The stereotypical conservative does not support gay marriage and therefore wants the government to criminalize it.

    Libertarians, on the other hand, tend to simply think that it shouldn`t be a concern of government - which is neither an approval or disapproval of gay marriage. While it may appear that libertarians align with liberals in this regard, it stems from a condemnation of government intervention rather than support for a specific ideology.
  81. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:13 am
    Not that you need a lesson in any of this...
  82. Profile photo of furryblob
    furryblob Male 18-29
    574 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:38 am
    I really hope they find this a-hole and put him away for an extended period of time. But shame to see the lowlife rightwing dirtbags here using this to peddle their crap.
  83. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 10:50 am
    But shame to see the lowlife rightwing dirtbags here using this to peddle their crap.

    Ya Democrats never exploit a tragedy to push an agenda....ROLF!
  84. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 11:54 am
    "The stereotypical liberal supports gay marriage and therefore wants the government to legalize it. "

    Wrong. A liberal would LOVE it if the government had nothing to do with marriage but are REALISTIC about how to make things happen in the here and now. No fantasies about a sudden utopia where everyone is law-abiding, considerate to their fellow citizen, free to do as they please and no local government corruption making rules that hurt whomever they decide they don`t like so that if you move from one state to another you might lose basic rights because the next state decided something different for you. Remember the days when the southern states thought slavery was great?
  85. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:06 pm
    @lauriloo

    I knew somebody would miss the "stereotypical" part. I thought I had emphasized it enough, but apparently not.

    Here, I`ll rewrite it for you:

    The STEREOTYPICAL LIBERAL supports gay marriage and therefore wants the government to legalize it.

    That ought to do it! So glad we did this.

    Also, if anyone has a fantasy about nirvana, I imagine it is egalitarians - such as yourself - who seem to be under the impression that the federal government will magically solve societies problems; this all despite overwhelming evidence in the contrary.

    My dear, nirvana is not for this world. For those capable, it is time to be responsible adults instead of looking to government to solve your every problem.
  86. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:18 pm
    @lauriloo

    I`ve been working on a piece about the three kinds of redistributionists: The Entitled, The False Prophets, and the "If Only". I believe you are a False Prophet.

    The False Prophets fervently believes the average person is less moral than themselves. A defining argument of a False Prophet is that "the others" will not "do the right thing" of their own choosing and thus, must be coerced into doing so.

    False Prophets arbitrarily decide, based on their own ideals, what "the right thing" is. Oftentimes, their ideals are not supported by meaningful statistics.

    A common defense of False Prophets is to claim the opponent is selfish, or somehow unsympathetic to the plight of the poor or disadvantaged.

    A possible explanation for the paradoxical views of False Prophets is that they subconsciously realize that, without coercion, they themselves would not meet their own standards.
  87. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:24 pm
    HumanAction

    "I imagine it is egalitarians - such as yourself - who seem to be under the impression that the federal government will magically solve societies problems; this all despite overwhelming evidence in the contrary."

    I think I have figured out the defining characteristic between our ideologies. You think government is broken and ineffective so it should be minimized or discarded where possible. I think government is broken and should be fixed.

    I believe people, special interests, and corporations are FAR too selfish to be left to their own devices. I think a properly run government could keep us relatively safe, foster enterprise, protect the environment, educate, and provide for the needy.
  88. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    @HolyGod

    You think government is broken and ineffective so it should be minimized or discarded where possible. I think government is broken and should be fixed.
    I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement. Other than war, which by nature destroys wealth, I can`t think of anything the federal government has done that has been an overwhelming success. Can it be "fixed"? Maybe - I can`t answer that. Does history suggest that it would just become broken again down the road? I think so.

    Where you say that people and corporations are selfish, I see no difference. Corporations can`t be selfish, only the people that run them can be. Every such group - government included - is comprised of fallible people. Thus, we should minimize the damage possible by any one organization.
  89. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 1:15 pm
    HumanAction

    "I can`t think of anything the federal government has done that has been an overwhelming success."

    I think the bailouts saved the economy, even if they weren`t handled properly. I think the government saved the auto industry, whether or not they should have is up for debate.
    There are plenty of old people who are only surviving due to social security and medicare.
    There are plenty of poor people who are only surviving due to medicaid and welfare.
    People that wouldn`t have otherwise been able to are going to college because of federal grants.
    Etc. Etc. Etc.

    The federal government helps lots of people in lots of ways.

  90. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 1:16 pm
    HumanACtion

    "Where you say that people and corporations are selfish, I see no difference. Corporations can`t be selfish, only the people that run them can be."

    An individual human has its own morality directing its actions. A corporation is a collection of people and therefore takes on group mentality where each individual`s personal morality is minimized. There are lots of psychological terms and factors that describe how a group is able to do something worse than any single individual`s morality would allow.
  91. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 1:33 pm
    I think the bailouts saved the economy, even if they weren`t handled properly.

    Except it endorsed the banks` irresponsible behavior, and has increased systemic risk within our banking system.

    I think the government saved the auto industry, whether or not they should have is up for debate.

    As if GM was uncompetitive before the bailouts made them, and their unionized workers, even more so. As a matter of fact while GM has still managed to lose jobs since Toyota has created them.

    There are plenty of old people who are only surviving due to social security and medicare.

    There are far more who genuinely don`t need it and the latter especially is making healthcare far too expensive for those who actually need it.
  92. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 1:42 pm
    Continued from the previous point, Obamacare does nothing to fix it. Congress couldn`t control costs, there is no reason to believe an executive bureaucracy will do the same. MediCare must be ended.

    There are plenty of poor people who are only surviving due to medicaid and welfare.


    Again too many people don`t need it and actually disincentivises quality healthcare. A voucher program can minimize this problem.

    People that wouldn`t have otherwise been able to are going to college because of federal grants.


    Because of which we`re seeing a bubble forming in education. Which suggests that some don`t really need it that much (see liberal arts majors).

    In short govt trying fix problems or "problems" (latter with emphasis on quotes) almost invariably creates more unintended problems.
  93. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:03 pm
    Cajun247

    I agree with everything you said.

    I think we both agree that medicaid, welfare, public housing, and food stamps are a broken system.

    Your opinion seems to be get rid of it. Mine is try to fix it.

    Let`s do everything we can to keep people from abusing it and let`s mandate some way for people to earn it.

    Mandatory monthly drug and alcohol screenings.
    Mandatory community service.
    Mandatory job training.
    Random investigations with HEAVY penalties for abuse.
    Etc.
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:06 pm
    @HolyGod

    That`s a lot of points to cover, but I`ll do what I can... -_-

    In my opinion, much like the New Deal, the bailouts serve to stagnate the economy and further misallocate market resources.

    Did they save the economy? Absolutely not in my opinion. The economy always recovers so the notion that it can be "saved" is wrong in the first place. Rather, we should focus on how long it takes to recover.

    We still haven`t recovered. Not to mention, the bailouts were only "needed" because the government (and Fed and GSE`s) so drastically distorted the housing market in the first place.

    Did the bailouts save the US auto industry? I think so. However, in doing so, they perpetuated the misallocation of labor to a market that is obviously well beyond saturation. Eventually, the industry will either need to lay people off or will require more bailouts to sustain their over-employment.
  95. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:12 pm
    @HolyGod

    Social security is MUCH different from the others listed. It was paid into with guarantees. It needs to be paid back to those who paid into it.

    Welfare, on the other hand, causes poverty.

    As for Medicare/Medicaid and student loans, there is a pattern to be recognized: every time the government incentivizes a market, costs rise sharply for everyone. Incentivize housing and you get a bubble. Incentivize healthcare and you get a bubble. Incentivize college education and you get a bubble.

    The fact of the matter is that nobody spends someone elses money as carefully as they spend their own.

    So, I would argue that the government hurts far more people than it helps, in far more ways.
  96. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:15 pm
    @HolyGod

    Sounds nice dude but your fixes don`t really solve anything.

    Most welfare recipients (even those who genuinely need it) aren`t any more alcoholic or drug addicts compared to the general population.

    Mandatory community service for welfare? That`s more labor misallocated.

    People who get govt sponsored job training are actually worse off than otherwise.

    Interestingly enough fighting welfare fraud and abuse actually costs more than the value of the fraud itself.
  97. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:16 pm
    @HolyGod

    A corporation is a collection of people and therefore takes on group mentality where each individual`s personal morality is minimized. There are lots of psychological terms and factors that describe how a group is able to do something worse than any single individual`s morality would allow.
    Isn`t a corporation, which is a collection of individuals, just like a government (a collection of individuals) in this case?

    Sure, a corporation by itself has power because they have money. What injustices can they do to you though? Can they come into your house and arrest you for smoking marijuana? No, their power is limited to volunteer exchanges.

    No such limit exists for government. So, while government and corporations are subject to the same evils, corporations are limited to being evil only when the consumer volunteers.
  98. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:23 pm
    @HolyGod

    So, you`re probably wondering what my solution is because up to this point, I`ve simply criticized everything you`ve mentioned.

    Here goes:

    We need a negative income tax pegged to a percentage (my guess is ~15%) below the market floor.

    This means that everyone is guaranteed an income in the US, provided it is a bit lower than what they could make in the market. In pegging the negative income tax, we realign the incentives to work. Additionally, we transfer decision making to the consumer, who, on the average, will make better situation specific decisions with that money.

    Every dollar earned by an individual over the set wage is subject to a flat tax of whatever it needs to be. There are no credits, deductions, or corporate taxes. Any income that increases an individuals net worth, even capital gains, is subject to the same rules.
  99. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 2:57 pm
    "This means that everyone is guaranteed an income in the US"

    Where does this base income come from? The Welfare department? I don`t see how this is different from welfare and social security, other than changing taxes for people with more money to be able to keep more money. Which puts all basic infrastructure currently funded by government at risk. What`s going to fund this "guaranteed base income"?
  100. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 3:01 pm
    @lauriloo

    Where does this base income come from?
    The IRS... It`s a negative income tax. Not sure where I lost you... might be trolling -_-.

    I don`t see how this is different from welfare and social security
    It is different from welfare because it removes the incentive to stay out of the workforce. It is nothing like social security. I mean, it is literally nothing like social security.

    Which puts all basic infrastructure currently funded by government at risk.
    No it doesn`t. The net revenue for the government remains the same.

    What`s going to fund this "guaranteed base income"?
    The net revenue from taxation.

    I think you need to reread my post; you did not understand it.
  101. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 3:09 pm
    "It is different from welfare because it removes the incentive to stay out of the workforce."

    So they are guaranteed a minimum income only if they work? People in between jobs or disabled get nothing and will just starve on the street? Oh yeah, c h a r i t i e s will take care of them.

    Sorry you`re not explaining it so someone twice your age, with an engineering degree and a Mensa membership card can get your logic.
  102. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 3:18 pm
    @lauriloo

    So they are guaranteed a minimum income only if they work?
    No, FFS. I guess I`ll have to spell it out; guess that engineering degree and Mensa membership didn`t go very far after all.

    Every single person, regardless of their work status, receives a guaranteed income; this is called a negative income tax (children would be a lesser rate than adults or emancipated adults).

    People who make more than that rate pay a flat tax on the excess income they make.

    The negative income tax would replace all other redistributionist entities (welfare, Medicare/Medicaid, HUD, etc.). The flat tax rate would be set to the necessary level (even if 50% - remember it`s "marginal" income) to create whatever level of revenue needed to maintain society.

    So, recap, people still are supported. Government is reduced, and the tax code is simplified. Win, win, win.
  103. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 3:20 pm
    @lauriloo

    And before you go on about how a flat tax would make the rich pay less and that nonsense, remember we close all deductions and credits too.

    What was Romney`s rate with the current system? 14% was it? Was your rate higher or lower?

    Assuming it was higher, then the only way to get the same revenue with a flat tax rate would be raising Romney`s rate and lowering yours.

    This sounds exactly like what you want.
  104. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 3:58 pm
    with an engineering degree and a Mensa membership card can get your logic.

    OldOllie is a former Mensa member, that`s not saying much.
  105. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 4:05 pm
    Cajun247

    "OldOllie is a former Mensa member, that`s not saying much."

    Mensa membership requires a standardized IQ score of 132 or higher. That puts you pretty much in the 98 percentile, which makes you statistically smarter than 98 out of 100 people. When you think of how dumb most people are it isn`t really THAT big of a deal. The fact that people lie about it makes it even less big of a deal.
  106. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 4:22 pm
    My IQ is 140. But really, it`s more the fact that I`ve lived twice as long as HumanAction that informs my opinion of his theories.
  107. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 4:25 pm
    @HG

    So you agree with me that having (or claiming) MENSA membership doesn`t necessarily make anyone`s point more valid right?
  108. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 4:31 pm
    @lauriloo

    You`ve gone from trying to argue to just making irrelevant appeals to your own seniority (or sense thereof). All you`re doing is admitting your own bias against us. If you want an intelligent debate you can have it otherwise...

  109. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 5:21 pm
    lauriloo

    "it`s more the fact that I`ve lived twice as long as HumanAction that informs my opinion of his theories"

    So then by your rationale an illiterate 70 year old coal miner is able to speak more intelligently on economic policy than a 35 year old economics PHD?

    Sorry. Age doesn`t automatically make you better able to speak on any subjects other than what aging is like.
  110. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2591 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 6:10 pm
    This is what happens when you aren`t armed 24/7.
  111. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    So, is it a cop out if I just say "what they said"?
  112. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 7:15 pm
    Life experience counts for a lot when you are espousing a theory that depends on knowledge about how humans tend to behave when given choices. The success of HumanAction`s theories depend heavily on whether people will "do the right thing" and support each other when given free will about what they will do with their money. Years of seeing the results of partisan politics, failed voting results when money is needed for new schools or some other improvement and, frankly, people on sites like this saying what they would do if they could choose, leads me to believe his theory of people doing the right thing for society-sake just won`t work. I remember what it was like to be in my 20s and how idealistic I was. When you are on my side of 25 and travelled as much as I have, you`ll finally see what I mean. But you won`t see it before then. That`s life. Now, if HumanAction actually WORKED FOR THE GOV and had extensive knowledge about how it works, then I would take him more seriously
  113. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 7:18 pm
    HG: It doesn`t take a genius to realize that you can`t spend more than your revenue. It doesn`t take a PHD to realize it either.

    As I`ve said before, there are many different kinds of intelligence, it`s not all about book learning. There are musical geniuses, artistic geniuses, mechanical geniuses, aesthetic geniuses, science geniuses, philosophic geniuses, etc..

    There are also educated idiots and elitist snobs, both of which society could do without.
  114. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 7:19 pm
    "So then by your rationale an illiterate 70 year old coal miner is able to speak more intelligently on economic policy than a 35 year old economics PHD? "

    I`m sorry, is HumanAction a 35 year old economics PhD? His profile says he`s a 24 year old business owner. I have no idea what makes him qualified to speak about economics.
  115. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 7:44 pm
    And, btw. I don`t think people won`t "do the right thing" because people are necessarily evil (like you implied with the False Prophet" jab). I think most people wouldn`t do it because, unless they have a huge overabundance of wealth, people will always find a reason to spend more money on themselves and especially their family to rise up the prosperity ladder. They will send their kids to better schools, have a nicer home, etc. Sure, that`s great for them but doesn`t help keep the greater social contract intact. The consequence of that is more poverty and then more crime which comes full circle on those who ignored their social responsibilities.
  116. Profile photo of collegebound
    collegebound Male 18-29
    3745 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 8:06 pm
    so uh...how about those nicks?
  117. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:14 pm
    lauriloo

    I completely agree with what you just said.

    I just took umbrage with your more simplified "I am older so I know more" argument.

    HumanAction knows I don`t see eye to eye with him on his ideas. Which is fine. It is always a good debate. I see things much more like you do.

    My biggest problem with his policies is you can`t just give poor people money and eliminate housing and food stamps because often times the money won`t go to the necessities like housing and food. Being financially responsible takes learning and practice. Plus you have to protect children from their parents. Food stamps go to food. Money could go to $300 Air Jordans leaving the fridge empty.
  118. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:16 pm
    CrakrJak

    "HG: It doesn`t take a genius to realize that you can`t spend more than your revenue. It doesn`t take a PHD to realize it either."

    I get what you mean on principle, but obviously you CAN spend more than you make. We`ve been doing it for several decades and the world keeps spinning. Every administration spent more than they took in including Reagan and Bush 1.
  119. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 26, 2013 at 9:21 pm
    CrakrJak

    "As I`ve said before, there are many different kinds of intelligence, it`s not all about book learning. There are musical geniuses, artistic geniuses, mechanical geniuses, aesthetic geniuses, science geniuses, philosophic geniuses, etc.."

    Not only is intelligence not all about book learning, it has NOTHING to do with book learning. "Learning" from a book is retention of information, knowledge. Intelligence has nothing to do with retention of information, intelligence is the ability to process information.

    You can memorize encyclopedias and be extremely knowledgeable but be too dumb to figure out the tip in your head. You can also grow up in a village in india without access to information but be able to solve quantum physics problems.

    Knowledge and intelligence, while often associated, are totally different.
  120. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 5:58 am
    @lauriloo

    The success of HumanAction`s theories depend heavily on whether people will "do the right thing" and support each other when given free will about what they will do with their money.
    Not this one. You`re arguing based on your assumption that I am arguing (in this particular argument) for something I am not. The negative income tax idea does not at all require people to "do the right thing."

    As for economics, I`d venture a guess I know more about economics that you. The problem I see is that you equate economic knowledge with whether or not your opponent agrees with you. In that case, Krugman must be a genius!

    Also, I can`t possibly be a 35 year old economics PHD as I`m 24.
  121. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 6:06 am
    @lauriloo

    Whoa killer! It`s not so much that you think "people are evil," it`s that you think the average person is below your own nobility. You`ve set an arbitrary level of nobility, which you believe - at least consciously - that you meet, yet openly say that the average citizen will not meet. If anything, that`s nothing more than arrogance.

    Also, the consequence of welfare is more poverty - not the other way around. You people are so focused on "helping the poor" in the here and now. At what cost though? Welfare (and other such policies) have demonstrably created poverty, widened the income gap, and driven inflation.

    Where you are focused on helping some random poor people today, I`m trying to move the entire line. Give money to a poor person and they will have a blanket tonight. Push the economy, and their children will buy their own blankets. Forgive me, but mine seems moral.
  122. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 6:12 am
    @HolyGod

    Being financially responsible takes learning and practice.
    Absolutely! Unfortunately, you cannot gain any such experience when your financial decisions are being made by a third party - such as the government.

    Here`s an example:

    Let`s say Junior breaks his finger. You can go to the emergency room and be treated immediately, or, you can wait for a spot at a clinic which will cost much less.

    If the healthcare is paid for by a third party, the incentive is to go to the emergency room - even if you don`t really need to. You will personally pay the same amount of money in either case, so you might as well get the quicker service. This is a rational decision by the consumer.

    Now, if I hand you enough money to go to the emergency room and say that you can keep whatever you don`t spend, I think you might consider the clinic road.
  123. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 10:25 am
    HumanAction

    "Let`s say Junior breaks his finger... Now, if I hand you enough money to go to the emergency room and say that you can keep whatever you don`t spend, I think you might consider the clinic road."

    Holy s.hit. Did you really just say that? You think that is a good thing?

    So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money? Awesome scenario.
  124. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 10:48 am
    So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money?

    Just what makes the clinic take longer? Conversely no city has unlimited ER`s to deal with every ailment that occurs. A broken finger won`t kill anyone like say a foreign object rammed through your abdomen will.
  125. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 10:54 am
    @HolyGod

    So a kid in pain has to suffer for longer so his parents can keep a little extra money? Awesome scenario.
    You are so dramatic sometimes. A broken finger, and the relatively MINOR pain involved is not the end of the world. If I break my finger, I`ll see a specialist later that day or the day after. It will cost me a ton less than it would have cost if I went to the emergency room.

    Let`s not do the emotion plea thing right now and just consider the real argument at hand.

    Do you agree that a 3rd party payer system encourages overuse of any system? This is the argument at hand.

    If I say, "Hey you, whatever you want, dinner is on me tonight" and hand you a blank check, are you going to be more likely to eat expensively?

    Don`t be so dramatic and emotional.
  126. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:12 am
    HumanAction

    "You are so dramatic sometimes. A broken finger, and the relatively MINOR pain involved is not the end of the world."

    You don`t have kids right? I would never let one of my kids suffer for any longer than was absolutely necessary, more money or not.

    "If I break my finger..."

    TOTALLY different scenario. As an adult I may make that decision for myself, weighing the discomfort to the extra money.

    "Do you agree that a 3rd party payer system encourages overuse of any system?"

    I guess maybe your scenario was bad then, as taking a child with a broken finger is not an "overuse" of an er in my opinion. But yes I would agree. Someone with health insurance will go to a doctor more than someone who has to pay out of pocket. of course.





  127. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:13 am
    HumanAction

    """Hey you, whatever you want, dinner is on me tonight" and hand you a blank check, are you going to be more likely to eat expensively?"

    No. Absolutely not. If someone takes me out to eat I always pick something more moderately priced than if I would have paid myself. Now if it is on the restaurant like an ANY meal free coupon or something, then I agree with your scenario.
  128. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:15 am
    Cajun247

    "Just what makes the clinic take longer?"

    The fact that HumanAction postulated: "You can go to the emergency room and be treated immediately, or, you can wait for a spot at a clinic "
  129. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:32 am
    @HolyGod

    You don`t have kids right?
    Correct. I think we envisioned something entirely different when I said "kids". I get the sense you`re considering some tiny 5-year old where I would call them a child. Kids, to me, are preteens.

    Either way, that wasn`t really the focus of the argument. When I posted the analogy, do you think I was trying to convey that Junior should be made to suffer to save some money, or that consumers, when given options, will try to maximize their utility?

    As an adult I may make that decision for myself, weighing the discomfort to the extra money.
    This is what I was getting at.

    The fact of the matter is that it`s paradoxical to complain about rising healthcare costs and, at the same time, support a 3rd party payer system. Demand will increase, and price will follow. The supply of medicine cannot expand enough to keep prices down.

  130. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:38 am
    @HolyGod

    If someone takes me out to eat I always pick something more moderately priced than if I would have paid myself.
    OK - that was a really bad analogy. It would be more like someone saying, from now on, all your meals will cost you $X regardless of what you get. If your meal actually costs more than $X, the extra will be taken out of the "pot".

    Sure, some of the more noble people in society will be good about it. However, people who can`t afford a thick ribeye, even the noblest of them, will end up having ribeye at some point.

    Obviously the quantity of ribeye demanded will increase. At this point, either price will increase, or supply will expand to keep prices relatively stable.
  131. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:48 am
    @HolyGod

    The fact of the matter is that the needs of a child with a broken finger, and a possibly overprotective parent, in no way shape or form outweighs the needs of people in which every day come to the hospital with conditions that could kill them within hour. The latter are always priority to the ER as that IS the most economical and humane thing to do. I honestly understand how seeing your child hurt can be upsetting, but it`s a risk you and your spouse undeniably accept by having and raising them.
  132. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 11:57 am
    Cajun247

    Not sure where you are going with that. Of course life threatening issues take precedent. I think you are arguing against an argument I`m not making. There is a miscommunication somewhere.
  133. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    HumanAction

    "It`s paradoxical to complain about rising healthcare costs and, at the same time, support a 3rd party payer system. Demand will increase, and price will follow. The supply of medicine cannot expand enough to keep prices down."

    I agree with you on principle. What you are saying makes total sense. However the fact that most third payer countries have LOWER healthcare costs than the USA kind of irrefutably refutes that position doesn`t it?

    The problem I see is that in this country healthcare is big business. In my opinion healthcare should not be a for profit business. When deciding what treatment a person should get, stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is.

    I`d like to see bare bones but effective hospitals which take government health insurance. Then have private insurance and private hospitals with specialists and nicer facilities and let the consumer make the choice.
  134. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:14 pm
    @HolyGod

    However the fact that most third payer countries have LOWER healthcare costs than the USA kind of irrefutably refutes that position doesn`t it?
    No, no it doesn`t. It actually proves my point very well. The US is a third party payer system the same as those other countries just through somewhat different means. Whereas we have HMO and Medicare/Medicaid, they had government. In both cases, they are third party payers. The difference is that those countries have a single payer system which holds the cost down somewhat. Just as our expenditures are exploding, so are theirs.

    A single payer system would be cheaper than ours, but will still suffer a bubble. That they are all experiencing a bubble over the last few decades supports my position.
  135. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:18 pm
    @HolyGod

    The problem I see is that in this country healthcare is big business.
    That doesn`t make any sense. Being a big business is not a sufficient explanation for disproportionate costs. Cable internet is a big business, but it is cheap. McDonalds, Walmart, and Google are all big businesses yet somehow keep their costs low and stable (to inflation).

    stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is
    I agree entirely, which I why I want individuals to take control of their own healthcare. HSA + HDHP is the way to go. I cannot stand the HMO market.

    As for the government insurance, well of course you know I`ll end up disagreeing with it.

  136. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:25 pm
    HumanAction

    "stockholders should NEVER be a concern and unfortunately in our system it is

    I agree entirely, which I why I want individuals to take control of their own healthcare. HSA + HDHP is the way to go. I cannot stand the HMO market.

    As for the government insurance, well of course you know I`ll end up disagreeing with it."

    How can you make those two statements? The ONLY way to keep the concern of stockholders out of medical decisions is to have government provided not for profit health insurance. Health should not be a for profit venture.
  137. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:30 pm
    HumanAction

    "That doesn`t make any sense. Being a big business is not a sufficient explanation for disproportionate costs. Cable internet is a big business, but it is cheap. McDonalds, Walmart, and Google are all big businesses yet somehow keep their costs low and stable (to inflation)."

    I don`t know what to tell you. Those businesses do not operate like healthcare. If Walmart is too expensive I`ll go to Target. If McDonalds is too expensive I`ll go to Burger King. Competition forces low prices. That doesn`t happen in healthcare and I can`t quite tell you why.

    When my son broke his arm I shopped around for Xrays. Some places charged $50 some places charged $250+. I can`t think of a SINGLE other industry where that kind of enormous cost difference for the exact same service exists.

    It is like the free market system doesn`t drive down prices and demand competition like it does in every other sector. Why do you think that is?
  138. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:35 pm
    HumanAction

    "It is like the free market system doesn`t drive down prices and demand competition like it does in every other sector. Why do you think that is?"

    Do you think it is because since healthacre is provided through insurance companies for most Americans we don`t know, or care, what the cost of our care is over and above our deductible which kinda goes back to your 3rd payer point?

    If so how do you solve that problem? AN HSA + HDHP model doesn`t really change anything for anything over $2,000.
  139. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:36 pm
    So you go to the clinic that charges $50 X-rays, and the other eventually lowers prices. Your point?
  140. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:46 pm
    Do you think it is because since healthacre is provided through insurance companies for most Americans we don`t know, or care, what the cost of our care is over and above our deductible which kinda goes back to your 3rd payer point?

    By definition we get the same problem through single payer.

    AN HSA + HDHP model doesn`t really change anything for anything over $2,000.

    Actually HDHP has deductibles that could go as high as $6000.
  141. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:49 pm
    Fix healthcare? End Medicare.
    Fix health insurance? End credits for employer provided health insurance.
  142. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:51 pm
    @HolyGod

    The ONLY way to keep the concern of stockholders out of medical decisions is to have government provided not for profit health insurance.
    Nuh-uh. If I go to my primary, get a flu shot, and pay for it with my HSA, then there are no stockholders involved. Technically, though, my HDHP covers flu shots.

    Why do you think that is?
    There are multiple reasons, in my opinion. First and foremost, it is because supply can`t expand fast enough to match demand increases. In other markets, like retails, new investors can jump into the market if suppliers start to be dicks. Regardless of whether or not it is a good thing (totally different discussion), regulations and license requirements prevent supply from adjusting rapidly.
  143. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:53 pm
    Cajun247

    "So you go to the clinic that charges $50 X-rays, and the other eventually lowers prices. Your point?"

    My point is they don`t. In any other industry they would have to but in healthcare they don`t.
  144. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:55 pm
    @HolyGod

    So, with that in mind, we need to end up at the conclusion that the only way to keep prices low is to decrease quantity demanded, or to "peg" it by monopolizing the 3rd party (like single payer does). The problem with single payer is that it doesn`t actually fix the problem: that demand is too high for supply.

    The only reasonable approach then is to control demand. To do so, we could certainly ration through various means (ahem, Canada). Otherwise, the only real solution is to remove the incentives to over-consume. We need to begin to consider the possibility that a perfect solution simply doesn`t exist. We might only really be able to choose between trade-offs.
  145. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 12:58 pm
    HumanAction

    "Nuh-uh. If I go to my primary, get a flu shot, and pay for it with my HSA, then there are no stockholders involved."

    Absolutely, my point, which I made in the next post, should have been MAJOR medical decisions, anything over say $2,000. Once the insurance company gets involved, even for an HDHP you still have profit being a concern over patient well being.

    The only time that won`t happen is with insurance that is not for profit and the only kind of insurance that is not for profit is government run insurance.
  146. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:01 pm
    @HolyGod

    If so how do you solve that problem? AN HSA + HDHP model doesn`t really change anything for anything over $2,000.
    Well, honestly, I don`t think we can "solve" the problem. What we can do is remove the incentives that encourage the overwhelming majority of consumption. Do some people get really hurt or really sick and need more healthcare than $2k? Absolutely; but most of us don`t have a major problem other than once or twice in our lives.

    Another big problem I`ve seen are the stupid tort laws we have. I have no idea what happened to the "reasonable man" defense but it`s out of control. I`ve talked with a couple doctors now who simply recommend MRI`s for everything because they don`t want to get sued. That is a problem.
  147. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    HumanAction

    "Otherwise, the only real solution is to remove the incentives to over-consume. We need to begin to consider the possibility that a perfect solution simply doesn`t exist. We might only really be able to choose between trade-offs."

    One issue is that someone needs to step in and regulate prices. Medical professionals need to be VERY well compensated for their work and the time and investment it took to achieve their position. However some are out of control.

    When my GF had a C-section the anesthesiologist charged $3,500. Now in my opinion that is absurd for a half hour of work no matter how specialized it is. Without government regulation of how much you are allowed to charge, people will charge as much as they can.
  148. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:06 pm
    HumanAction

    "Another big problem I`ve seen are the stupid tort laws we have."

    Absolutely. I think government involvement helps that problem as well. The government needs to pass some legislation that keeps doctors from fearing those kinds or repercussions and keeps malpractice insurance down.
  149. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:07 pm
    @HolyGod

    The only time that won`t happen is with insurance that is not for profit and the only kind of insurance that is not for profit is government run insurance.
    Oh, I see where you were going with it. The problem I see is that you assume the government is going to be fair and stay "not for profit".

    We can simply look at social security to see that this assumption is false. Social security was originally set up as a pay-in pay-out system; it sounded great and people were happy. The government, because of political temptation, went on to raid it. That`s "for profit". We (society) paid into a system expecting to get equal or greater value back, but the government skimmed from the top to fund other programs. I see no difference between that and a "for profit" organization.
  150. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:12 pm
    @HolyGod

    Without government regulation of how much you are allowed to charge, people will charge as much as they can.
    Ah, but you`re not considering the other half of the puzzle. Let`s say they charge a billion dollars. I don`t think many people would buy from them. The price must stay at a level where the average target consumer can afford it. If we provide enough cash for everything, then and only then, can they charge "as much as they can".

    Does that mean some people are going to get screwed? Yep, it sucks. The other option, where everyone but the doctors get screwed, is far worse.

    The government needs to pass some legislation that keeps doctors from fearing those kinds or repercussions and keeps malpractice insurance down.
    But they made the tort laws! They`re the ones who came up with the stupidity in the first place.
  151. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:15 pm
    HumanAction

    "but the government skimmed from the top to fund other programs."

    We should have put it in Al Gore`s "lockbox". ;)

    Social security is a long term investment. I think there should definitely be steps taken to get back a larger value for the investor. Some sort of ULTRA safe investment in a combination of bonds, precious metals, and very conservative mutual funds. It should well out pace inflation. Also I think you should get back your investment at 65 in a mutual fund account that pays off monthly. That way if you die at 66 your family inherits YOUR money.

    You should also be able to borrow against the value of your social security account after let`s say 45 for certain things like medical expenses or perhaps a mortgage.

    I think there are lots of things you could do differently with social security.

    I also don`t think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents. ;)
  152. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm
    @HolyGod

    I also don`t think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents. ;)
    No kidding. It`s actually been quite nice not dealing with stupid interruptions though it has been a less-than-productive afternoon.
  153. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 1:27 pm
    I also don`t think there has ever been an IAB thread that touched on THIS many tangents.

    I was about to say we went from talking about a brutal home invasion to the economics of healthcare.
  154. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    June 27, 2013 at 2:40 pm
    Cajun247 & HumanAction

    "I was about to say we went from talking about a brutal home invasion to the economics of healthcare."

    Here are SOME of the topics touched on in this thread:

    Gun control, gun safety, the death penalty, differences between democrats and republicans, privacy issues, gun murder vs other weapons, partisan politics, libertarianism, rape prevention, religion in politics, gay marriage, abortion, the bailouts, the economy, welfare, medicare, healthcare industry, taxes, MENSA, insurance....

    Always enjoy chatting with you guys. So nice when the ideologue spazs keep from interrupting.
  155. Profile photo of SoCal
    SoCal Male 18-29
    650 posts
    June 28, 2013 at 2:10 am
    He`s black, of course

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