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Date: 05/06/13 09:21 AM

35 Responses to Do Men Really Earn More Than Women? [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 9:22 am
    Link: Do Men Really Earn More Than Women? - Have you ever actually considered other possibilities?
  2. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    339 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 9:37 am
    The remaining 2% to 4% difference drops to insignificance when you account for career hiatuses due to child bearing/rearing.

    It amuses me in a bittersweet way when the public finally "gets" something economists have been saying for decades.
  3. Profile photo of JacobTrue13
    JacobTrue13 Male 18-29
    260 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 9:52 am
    Sickening. This doesn`t even come close to accounting for all the studies that have come back with the gender gap result.

    And for one thing, we have to ask - why is it that `female jobs` are less well-paid?
  4. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:14 am
    Oh ya well when I strip at the titty bar I get waaaay less!!!
  5. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:22 am
    So, why are men not asked about childcare arrangements ( yes- I know it is technically illegal but..) - children are not just cared for by women, and why the hell was I asked about having any more children last time I went for a interview for a job. Who the hell thinks I am likely to going to have more kids, yet the man in front of me who was about 30- no-one asked HIM. He had yoghurt splurges on the back of his knees, and as we left together he explained his rush to go as he had to pick up his children? Huge kerfuffle in the commons a while back because one MP had to get HIS children... this cuts both ways.
  6. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36187 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:27 am

    Hooters won`t even consider hiring me to wait tables.
    How sexist is that!
  7. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36187 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:29 am

    @ madduck - when a man has a child he doesn`t typically take 2 or 3 years off work so... kinda irrelevant if he wants to have more kids. But a company does not want to invest the time/money training a new employee just to have them leave a year later when their biological alarm clock goes off.
  8. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:42 am
    Madduck - it`s because mothers and fathers are treated very differently, mostly due to socialisation.

    A father is expected to put work first and can be held back or even sacked if he doesn`t without any great risk to the business. There`s no chance of a costly (in terms of money and bad publicity) sexism lawsuit if a business passes a man over for promotion because he puts more emphasis on his family, or even if the business sacks him for it.

    A father has far less right to time off and is far less likely to take it anyway. For example, the usual maternity leave where I work is a year. The usual paternity leave is a week, which is usually taken as part of the annual holiday entitlement anyway.

    While some of that difference is for physical reasons, that doesn`t really matter to the employer anyway. Off work is off work, whatever the reason. It still costs the employer the same.

    Sexual equality would of course fix this too.
  9. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:44 am
    Why not though Gerry? Many men want to do the baby bit- what about gay couples adopting? There is a huge assumption that women will take time off- and men won`t. Why - most women I know work up to around 38 weeks then take about 6 months off. after that it is 50/50 male to female who does the school run etc... I think that is unfair all round. Men should not be forced to take one role any more than women the other- and to question an obviously older woman about children when you do not ask a obvious young father the same question highlights an issue. The pay gap is because women tend to have lower paid jobs- and this is very often NOT of their choosing.
  10. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:46 am
    and I agree Angillion- sexism affects everyone and is ridiculous.
  11. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:48 am
    And for one thing, we have to ask - why is it that `female jobs` are less well-paid?

    Usually because they don`t require as much time, either in working towards them (qualifications, silly hours to work up the ladder, etc) or simply because they involve less hours of work per week. A large part of the "gender" gap is simply down to hours worked per week. Working more hours a week will usually attract more pay, either as a straightforward hourly wage or as a greater chance of a larger pay rise on a salary or as a greater chance of a promotion to a job with a higher salary. Little or nothing of the "gender" gap is actually caused by sex - it`s correlation, not causation.
  12. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    339 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:55 am
    JacobTrue13: You have the causality backward. Plenty of studies have shown a propensity for females to select jobs that provide for a better home-life work-life balance. Those jobs, on average, pay less. In short, it`s not that "female jobs" are less well-paid than it is that females (on average) are willing to tradeoff lower pay for more work-life flexibility.

    (Of course, this isn`t true in every case - so forget about specific examples - it`s true on average, and that`s all that`s necessary to skew the numbers.)
  13. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 10:58 am
    Which leads on to the question of why there are more women than men in those jobs...and parenting forms a large part of that answer because they are jobs that allow for more time with children. If you`re away from home from 0700 to 1900 6 days a week because your commuting and your job requires it, you`re hardly going to even see your young children when they`re awake, let alone feed them, bathe them, play with them and all the myriad of other things that young children need.

    So women tend to get pushed one way and men tend to get pushed the other because both childcare and money are required, e.g. food needs to be bought as well as prepared and given to the kid.

    Sexual equality, and I mean actual sexual equality and not feminism or masculism, would fix pretty much all of this but it`s such a radical idea and faces such organised and politicised opposition that it doesn`t seem to be on the cards any time soon.
  14. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:10 am
    and I agree Angillion- sexism affects everyone and is ridiculous.

    It`s nice to know I`m not the only weirdo :)

    Some aspects of sexed roles did make sense in the past, but those days are long gone. Very few people are semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers living in small tribes nowadays and sexed roles based on that life aren`t the best match for this one. They fit to some extent even as recently as a few hundred years ago, since they fit to some extent in a rural agrarian society with a low population density and no modern technology, but they don`t fit now. They`re like building a car with a mechanical horse or cow at the front that pulls the car - yes, horses and cows were needed to pull carriages in the past, but it`s a ridiculous way to power a modern car.
  15. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:16 am
    I was raised by a grandmother who should never have married, or had children, she should have been a business woman. People differ, some men would make fantastic full time parents, some women excellent plumbers. We should treat people as people- not just lump them into two groups..
  16. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:26 am
    People differ, some men would make fantastic full time parents, some women excellent plumbers. We should treat people as people- not just lump them into two groups..

    Sometimes, I seriously wonder why something so obviously true isn`t so normal that it`s not an issue. Individuals are...individuals. Why isn`t that such as obvious thing that it would underpin everything and pass unnoticed? Instead, it`s actually an unusual position and people like you and me are a bit odd for thinking that way.

    homo sapiens sapiens my arse. Intelligence, sure, but wisdom seems a bit lacking in humanity. Treating all of humanity living and dead as two entities named "men" and "women" isn`t just unwise, it`s downright insane. Yet it`s quite normal and deeply engrained in politics.
  17. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36187 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:43 am

    madduck - I`m all for men staying at home with the kids. Some one should and father/mother it`s the families choice. Be we were discussing what is, not what we want it to be.

    50/50 split taking care of the kids? That has not been my observation. Women are more likely to call in sick if their kid is ill and generally take more time off because of their kids. Personally I don`t like to hire women of child-bearing years.
  18. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36187 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:45 am

    "Why is it that `female jobs` are less well-paid?"
    They aren`t "female" jobs. They are low paying jobs but women are more likely to go into those fields. Usually this is caregiver positions or working with non-profit organizations.
  19. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm
    We are picking up the pieces from a society with rules written to favour a particular group of people. Wealthy white men, no one else really benefits but them- so slowly we try to unpick what they did. But those rules have been written and our whole society based on them- so we are taught from childhood that girls should be soft, submissive, hardworking - to cook, clean rear children. Men should be big, strong and brave.....to provide, defend, build - mostly rubbish. Ultimately we will get rid of these attitudes I think- but it will take time and jostling.
  20. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    339 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 1:05 pm
    "Wealthy white men, no one else really benefits but them..."

    Really, the Egyptian pharaohs were white men? The Chinese emperors? The Incans? The Aztecs?

    Regardless, even if all those who are rich belong to demographic X, this does not mean that all those who belong to demographic X are rich.

    Unfortunately, we craft our discrimination laws as if "all those who belong to demographic X are rich," ironically creating the reverse set of rules that you claim exist.
  21. Profile photo of Canoas
    Canoas Male 18-29
    427 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 1:08 pm
    "Sickening. This doesn`t even come close to accounting for all the studies that have come back with the gender gap result.

    And for one thing, we have to ask - why is it that `female jobs` are less well-paid?"

    Most studies just check the average income for males and females, not by their actual profession.
    Also, it`s not a "female job", such a thing does not exist, it`s simply a job that attracts more females than males. How many teachers are female? Probably over 90%. How many electronic engineers are male? Probably over 90%. Want to guess which of them pays more?
  22. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    anteconomist- most of us live in Europe or the states- The Incas and Aztecs etc did not write our laws- neither did the Pharoahs. . English law and European law does indeed favour feudal lords... it was mostly written by them. Systems such as Welsh law got pushed out- because it did not have primogeniture.
  23. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5875 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 1:58 pm
    Angilion-"why there are more women than men in those jobs"

    Because more women are more willing to take such a job than men.

    Angilion-"Sexual equality"

    Is not going to change the mind of a woman who wants a part-time job so she can spend more time with the kids.

    madduck-"The Incas and Aztecs etc did not write our laws"

    If you don`t realize Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs and all of human history has influenced our laws and our way of lifes, then you demonstrate tremendous ignorance.
  24. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 2:03 pm
    Influence to an extent possibly - not wrote. Big difference duckie.... try not to live up to your name dear, I am off to bed.
  25. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5875 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 2:12 pm
    madduck-"Influence to an extent possibly - not wrote."

    Ignorance confirmed.
  26. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 3:34 pm
    Angilion-"why there are more women than men in those jobs"

    Because more women are more willing to take such a job than men.

    If you had read more than the first line of my post, you would have seen a more meaningful answer to the question.

    Angilion-"Sexual equality"

    Is not going to change the mind of a woman who wants a part-time job so she can spend more time with the kids.

    Who said it would? I didn`t, so who do you think you`re making a counter-argument to? What it would do is to make the *average* choices closer. Why are you talking about part time jobs, anyway?

  27. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 3:40 pm
    If you don`t realize Egyptians, Incas, Aztecs and all of human history has influenced our laws and our way of lifes, then you demonstrate tremendous ignorance.

    1) None of those people wrote medieval English law, which is what madduck referred to.

    2) The people who did write medieval English law didn`t even know of the existence of the Incans and Aztecs, which rules out even influence.

    3) The Egyptian influence on medieval English law was indirect and tenuous. It certainly wasn`t as much of an influence as the medieval English influence on medieval English law.

    Even afterwards, it`s clear that the main influence on English common law (and thus on other legal systems based on it) was medieval English law, which was most strongly influenced by medieval Norman law...which was written by wealthy Norman men predominantly for the benefit of wealthy Normans and the sexed roles their culture had.
  28. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 3:52 pm
    Although there was a quite surprising amount of medieval English law running counter to that (e.g. inalienable rights for all free English people regardless of wealth or power came in formally in 1215), madduck was right to say that it favoured feudal lords. It wasn`t utterly one-sided and peasant women could and did bring (and win) court cases against feudal lords, but it did favour the nobility and it did favour the sexed roles that were traditional in Norman nobility.
  29. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12390 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 3:54 pm
    Hmm...actually, I was wrong. Madduck used the present tense, which is obviously wrong. There aren`t any feudal lords in England today and haven`t been for a while.
  30. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 3:59 pm
    The sexists have been thoroughly routed here.
  31. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 6, 2013 at 11:25 pm
    I was off to bed angillion- but law is a fluid thing. Women where in effect chattels by about 1750- their property transferred to their husband on married and they did not have a right to their children in they separated ( check dates- just up) they had to give up work upon marriage well into the 20th century, Equal pay had to wait until 1970, marital rape was legal until 1980...
  32. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5875 posts
    May 7, 2013 at 6:16 am
    Angilion-"The Egyptian influence on medieval English law was indirect and tenuous"

    The point was, of course, that all civilizations have been influenced by those that came before it.

    Angilion-"The sexists have been thoroughly routed here."

    What sexists? Are you calling anyone with enough common sense that realizes the `gender wage gap` is a fabricated fallacy?

    Back when I worked a job where several people worked the same job classification, if a woman worked the same classification as a man, she got paid the same. The ONLY variances I`ve seen in wage was due to seniority, and worked in both directions (women with more seniority than me made more, less than me made less).

    The only earnings variances I saw was due to the overtime worked by the individual (and yes, we had a girl who refused any overtime, then thought it was unfair that her annual earnings was less...but then, she was an idiot).
  33. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    May 7, 2013 at 9:14 am
    Megrendel- when I started work there had been an equal pay act for about eight years, but men had different job titles and were paid about 20% more than women for the same job. They have amended that now - but I gave it as an example of how recently women were legally second class citizens. Around 150 years ago (no time at all really) middle class women had to be innocent children on the surface, but tough leaders in private- with no legal recourse- their husbands word was law. It takes time for attitudes to change, it takes time for the law to change, and it takes time to even things out. The best analogy I know is this- if you have a 1000meter running race with two contestants - one runs normally and the other has one leg tied up behind them. If you let them run for a minute then unbind that runner they will not be close to catching up by the end. You either let the race go on for long enough to even out- or give the other a handicap.
  34. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    May 7, 2013 at 11:01 am
    McGrendel, I was the one who said the sexists were thoroughly routed, not Angillon. And seeing as I posted this link, it`s obvious that I`m referring to people like Madduck as the ultimate sexist bigots.
  35. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5875 posts
    May 7, 2013 at 1:01 pm
    Andrew155-"I was the one who said the sexists were thoroughly routed"

    And so you were.

    Sorry Angillon..Got Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V happy.

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