Which Religion Cares Most About the Homeless [Pic]

Submitted by: Draculya 4 years ago in

Let"s just say that religion isn"t winning
There are 128 comments:
Male 117
patchgrabber,

monsterzero already tried that he got counter trolled.
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Male 40,290
Sorry to have troubled you @Angilion (and @patchy too!)

Cheers!
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Female 2,691
Wait, like, what? You have to declare before you can give this schlub money? I`d just say I`m a Reform Drooeed, No, not Druid. We`re an offshoot. We believe that goats are sacred, but we also eat them. Because they are tasty, but also because we believe we come closer to the holy spirit every time we choke on a horn fragment,. Fekker. For a college paper, you`ve already failed. Also, your hat is shiny.

Oh. that is your head? Sorry. Here is a dollar.
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Male 354
Omg! A long winded diatribe about religion! I`m shocked. Here`s my 2 cents then.
Religion is the crutch of the weak minded who are scared to death about the doubt in the back of their minds that there is NOTHING AFTER DEATH.
Suckers...
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Male 12,365
I`m going to repeat myself as a final summary:

I do not have to take a faith-based position and declare that I know the truth regardless of the lack of proof - I do not have to believe.

You cannot force me to do so, no matter how many times you repeat yourself or shout.

I will not embrace faith just because you tell me that it`s impossible not to. You are wrong and silly.
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Male 12,365
OK, I`m done.

You are a perfect example of the most annoying thing about people who have a ludicrously dogmatic belief system that they are utterly determined to force on everyone - you tell everyone that they follow your belief system, with utter disregard for what their position actually is, no matter how many times they tell you.

You can tell me what I am allowed to think as much as you like, but you can`t actually control my mind so you`re just pissing in the wind.

Lack of belief exists. You can deny it all you like, but you can`t stop it existing.
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Male 40,290
[quote]5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: It`s a word you just made up.
5C: It`s a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I believe you just made it up.[/quote]


[quote]5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: It`s a type of flower.
5C: It`s a word I made up.
A: I believe it is a real word.[/quote]

By line 4 the `A` person cannot LITERALLY have NO belief about "gangleplax"...

[quote]5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It`s a word I made up.
A: I have no way of knowing if that is true or not.[/quote]

At that point in time? This can be true. Another correct answer is: I`ll await further research before forming a belief.
BUT! That still falls into the "I don`t know" category. (it`s implicit)

See?
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Male 40,290
Line 2 and line 4 are both references to A`s beliefs about "gangleplax".

Line 2: Here the answer "I have no beliefs about it" is correct!! Because he literally has NO beliefs about it!

Line 4: Here the correct answer is one of the 4 given. The answer of "I have no belief" is no longer valid! It is INACCURATE! Because at this point, having some information to process, `A` does have some sort of belief (idea, theory, knowledge, understanding, opinion & etc) about "gangleplax".

"I don`t know" = correct!
"I have no belief" = I don`t know, which is one of the 4 "belief sets". It is inaccurate to claim a complete LACK of any FORM of belief...

(For line 4, NOT line 2!)

Am I being "overly picky"? Probably. But that`s how I see it.
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Male 12,365
[quote]Sorry to argue so much, really! It just seems so obvious to me.[/quote]

Obvious, but wrong. You are, for some reason, absolutely certain that belief is essential in all things, that it`s impossible for anyone to not believe. That makes it obvious to you that everyone must always believe - you`re reinforcing your own doctrine.

[quote]5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It`s a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I have no beliefs about it.

But you DO! (In the second reply, NOT the first) Either you believe: I made it up, you believe it`s real, you don`t know, or you think it`s impossible to tell. [/quote]

The last two aren`t beliefs. The first two might be beliefs or they might be casually phrased assessments of probability or they might be a result of knowledge from other sources.
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Male 12,365
[quote]Everyone HAS information on the subject of God(s), ok? There is not one functional adult alive who hasn`t heard of, studied or thought about the existence OR NOT of God(s) OK?

To claim "lack of information" is ONE WAY TO EXPRESS YOUR SET OF BELIEFS in that subject.[/quote]

You can shout as much as you like, but you can`t force everyone else to acquire your inability to understand a lack of belief.

I have varying degrees of information about the hundreds of gods that we know people have believed in in various times and places.

I have no *proof* regarding whether any of them are real or fictional characters.

I do not have to take a faith-based position and declare that I know the truth regardless of the lack of proof - I do not have to believe.

You cannot force me to do so, no matter how many times you repeat yourself or shout.
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Male 12,365
[quote]@Angilion: "I believe I lack the information to form a belief".[/quote]

I`ll repeat what I said before, because it`s still true and your radical change to what I actually wrote is a perfect example:

you are for some reason unable to understand the concept of a lack of belief.

You are redefining words, concepts and every possible position to force them to conform to your lack of understanding.


You`ve proven my point again, in an even more strained and contorted way this time. In order to change what I said in order to try to force it to conform to your inability to comprehend the concept of a lack of belief, not only have you had to make up a completely different position and claim it`s the same one, but the fake you`ve made contradicts itself.
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Male 40,290
Woo hoo! Not cut off!
The char counter forces brevity, which often (but not always) aids clarity.

Do you believe me? ;-)
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Male 40,290
The ONLY way a "lack of information" can be used to form a NON belief is if you`ve never heard of the thing before.

In THAT case you literally have NO belief, idea, knowledge, understanding & etc.

For every other thing? You have "a belief" even if that belief is: I don`t know (or some variation of that).

Belief is not omnipresent? Very good! Neither is it omniscient. BUT it is sentient: if you have a thought? You have a belief. If you`ve LITERALLY never thought about it? THEN it is possible to be non-sentient (not know).

Sorry to argue so much, really! It just seems so obvious to me.

5C: What do you think of gangleplax?
A: I have no idea, what is it?
5C: It`s a word I made up.
A: Oh, then I have no beliefs about it.

But you DO! (In the second reply, NOT the first) Either you believe: I made it up, you believe it`s real, you don`t know, or you think it`s impossible to tell.
912
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Male 40,290
[quote]So now you`re taking single words out of a thesaurus and claiming it`s better than the context of a dictionary?[/quote]
Noooo. @patchy I`m saying that one of the Dictionary Words SUPPORTS my side! You said it has "nothing" to do with "belief" but in fact the two words are... synonyms!

[quote]doubting a claim IS NOT the same as accepting the opposite of the claim.[/quote]
When have I ever said that? I keep repeating that the two are different! 4 answers: Yes, No, I don`t know & it`s impossible to know.

@Angilion: "I believe I lack the information to form a belief".

Everyone HAS information on the subject of God(s), ok? There is not one functional adult alive who hasn`t heard of, studied or thought about the existence OR NOT of God(s) OK?

To claim "lack of information" is ONE WAY TO EXPRESS YOUR SET OF BELIEFS in that subject.
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Male 12,365
You`ve read the definitions I gave. You even agreed with them. So use them:

Gnostic atheism is a belief position - a gnostic atheist believes that there are no gods. Belief is required because they claim knowledge and do not have proof, although they might not see it as belief (because they think it is knowledge).

Gnostic theism is a belief position, for the same reason. A gnostic theist believes that there are gods, or a god.

Agnostic theism is a belief position, and a very honest one. An agnostic theist is completely upfront about it being a belief position - they don`t claim knowledge, so they see their belief in god(s) as a belief.

Agnostic atheism is not a form of belief - an agnostic atheist does not claim knowledge despite lack of proof, nor do they acknowledge their lack of knowledge but believe anyway. There is no belief in this position.
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Male 12,365
[quote]But it doesn`t change the reality: Atheism is A FORM of belief. [/quote]

You are wrong. It`s as simple as that.

It may seem like reality to you, but that`s because you are for some reason unable to understand the concept of a lack of belief. I`ve no idea why, because it`s not a complex concept, but the idea is somehow incomprehensible to you.

You are redefining words, concepts and every possible position to force them to conform to your lack of understanding. That`s not reality. It only seems like reality to you because you can`t fit a lack of belief into your perception of reality.

I assure you that there is such a thing as a lack of belief. It does exist. It`s actually quite common. I have no idea why you`re unable to understand even the possibility of its existence.
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Male 12,365
[quote]I know that I don`t know.

To me? That`s different than the other three, BUT it still counts as "a belief about life on Tau Ceti".[/quote]

Why? There`s no belief in it at all. As I said before:

[quote]I don`t know. That is not a belief. I don`t believe I don`t know. I know that I don`t know. No faith required.[/quote]

"I know that I don`t know" isn`t a statement about belief. It`s a statement about knowledge.

"There are people there" and "there aren`t people there" are statements of belief because there isn`t compelling evidence either way.

"What little evidence we have implies that intelligent life is probably very rare, so it`s unlikely that two species of intelligent life would evolve so close to each other at the same time" is a third option - neither belief nor knowledge, but rational speculation and an assessment of probability.

Belief is not omnipresent.
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Male 5,811
So now you`re taking single words out of a thesaurus and claiming it`s better than the context of a dictionary? ha, ok.

[quote]Atheism is A FORM of belief.[/quote]

No. How is doubt a form of belief? I haven`t made a judgement or "accepted" anything either way. If a doubt is a belief then a thought is an action.

"I believe I don`t know" is a non sequitor. It`s like you skipped my whole comment about how doubting a claim IS NOT the same as accepting the opposite of the claim.
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Male 40,290
*Hits @patchy with a Thesaurus*

Accept means to agree. Agreement implies belief.

Belief What`s the first word? Acceptance...

Unbelief What`s the first word? Atheism...

I know WHAT you are saying, I just disagree...

Yes it`s the fault of the English Language and people`s use of terms in a "slang" fashion. But it doesn`t change the reality: Atheism is A FORM of belief.

Loosey-Goosey
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Male 5,811
[quote]But you DO believe something else! You even said so! [/quote]
Yes, *I* believe something else, that doesn`t mean that ALL atheists believe something else. You`re just painting them all with the same brush and claiming it`s true. While atheists *can* believe things, IT IS NOT REQUIRED.
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Male 5,811
Doubt, on the other hand:

1) A status between belief and disbelief, involves uncertainty or distrust or lack of sureness of an alleged fact, an action, a motive, or a decision.

This again says nothing of believing any viewpoint, rather, all I`m doing is not accepting yours. Strawman all you want but belief is NOT a requirement for atheism.
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Male 5,811
@5cats: You`re loading the question. I wasn`t being asked what I believe, rather, someone is asserting that, say, God exists. I don`t have to believe *anything* as I already pointed out.

[quote]Disbelief, unbelief, nonbelief, belief. All are FORMS OF "I Think"... "I Understand"... "I`ve Concluded That"...[/quote]
No. You`re correct that they are the same thing basically, but you`re wrong in that they don`t make any assumptions or beliefs. Let`s look at some definitions:
Disbelief: 1. Inability or refusal to accept that something is true or real.
2. Lack of faith in something.

That doesn`t say anything about believing or having an affirmative about anything.

Unbelief: Lack of religious belief; an absence of faith.

Nothing there about believing anything either.

Nonbelief: refusal to accept something as true <my nonbelief in UFO`s should not be construed as an unshakable belief in their nonexistence
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Male 40,290
"If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice!"
- Rush "Freewill"

Did you make a choice by not deciding? Yes.
Did you decide on it? No.

Same action, different answers because the question is different.

Do you have a belief: yes
What IS that belief: I believe I don`t know

It`s still "a belief" even if you don`t know what it is...

Thus: All 4 forms of the Theist/Atheist and Gnostic/Agnostic combination are: Forms Of Belief
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Male 40,290
[quote]But that doesn`t mean I believe something else...[/quote]

@patchy: But you DO believe something else! You even said so!

You THINK the answer is yes, or no, or I don`t know, or we can never know. These, to me, are 4 separate answers although 3 of them are very similar. Those three get "lumped together" by the English Language eh? Depending on the question asked.

Disbelief, unbelief, nonbelief, belief. All are FORMS OF "I Think"... "I Understand"... "I`ve Concluded That"...

Babies don`t "think" yet, they just react and learn...

Back to @Angilion`s example:
Are you SURE there`s life at Tau Ceti?
GT: Yes
GA: No
AT: No
AA: No

See? Same answers, different reasons.

Do you think there MIGHT BE life at Tau Ceti?
GT: Yes
GA: No
AT: Yes
AA: Yes

Same reasons, different answers...
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Male 5,811
Logically speaking, mere disbelief in the truth of a proposition cannot be treated as equivalent to the belief that the proposition is false and that the opposite is true. If you make a claim and I disbelieve it, I am not necessarily saying that your claim is false. I may not understand it well enough to say one way or the other. Or I may lack enough information to test your claim. Or I may simply not care enough to think about it. But that doesn`t mean I believe something else or that I "believe" that you are wrong.
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Male 5,811
@5cats: You`ve missed my point. Calling a baby solipsistic is not an answer either. By your definition, since a baby doesn`t believe in God it therefore MUST actively NOT believe. But failing that, it all comes back to burden of proof. A person`s default position is always disbelief, until someone comes along and makes a claim, like God exists. Then it`s up to that person to convince me, and if they can`t it doesn`t mean I have a belief, the person merely could have done a crappy job of arguing their belief. As @Angilion has said, you don`t seem to have the word "disbelief" in your vocabulary and try to shoehorn "belief" into everything.
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Male 406
that guy is a drating genius... exploiting the "I am better then you"`ism.
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Male 117
patchgrabber,

monsterzero already tried that he got counter trolled.
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Male 40,290
[quote]@Canoas... Believing that a proposition is untrue is not a lack of belief and it isn`t the opposite of belief. That should be very obvious.[/quote]
Phew! Thanks @Angilion! It seems so obvious to ME!
Your "4 definitions" at 4:58:16 PM work for me. I know we`ve disagreed over this very subject before. Am I smarter now or have your definitions improved? :-?

[quote]I know that I don`t know.[/quote]
To me? That`s different than the other three, BUT it still counts as "a belief about life on Tau Ceti". That it`s A belief, not THE belief...

"My belief is: I`m certain I do not know."
"I`m certain there is NO WAY of ever knowing, therefor I do not know."

Different! One retains the possibility of knowledge (Gnostic) while the other does not...

idk if I`m arguing or agreeing at this point...
(prepares to abandon thread!)
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Male 358
@AK47:
Ummm...
Yeah.
You do realize I meant the person who took the picture was a troll right?
Or are you so used to people calling you a troll you just automatically thought I meant you?
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Male 2,384
haha i was gunna say the atheism bowl looks pretty full
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Female 2,549
Have you heard of the agnostic, dyslexic, insomniac who lay awake at night wondering if there was a Dog?
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Male 12,365
Hey Canoas, did you intend to make a fool of yourself? That`s what you`ve done by being completely wrong while ranting at someone.

Believing that a proposition is untrue is not a lack of belief and it isn`t the opposite of belief. That should be very obvious, so it`s rather strange that you don`t understand the difference.

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Male 12,365
[quote]You cannot "not believe" something! You can believe it exists, does NOT exist or that you don`t know. ALL THREEE are "beliefs" ok?[/quote]

Those three things are beliefs, but they are not the only possible options. Why do you assume that it is absolutely necessary to adopt a faith-based position about everything? That`s obviously wrong.

I`ll pick something other than religion, since religion tends to make people stop thinking:

Are there people living on a planet orbiting Tau Ceti?

I don`t know. That is not a belief. I don`t believe I don`t know. I know that I don`t know. No faith required.

Do I believe that there are people living on a planet orbiting Tau Ceti? No.

Do I believe that there are not people living on a planet orbiting Tau Ceti? No.

I do not have a belief regarding people living on a planet orbiting Tau Ceti.

Belief and knowledge are *different things*.
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Male 12,365
Strictly speaking, gnosticism has a different meaning in the context of Christianity, but that`s archaic because it was violently suppressed as heresy long ago. I think it`s valid to use it as a general opposite to agnosticism.

Here`s the definition of agnosticism by the person who created the term:

[quote]That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.

Thomas Huxley, 1889
[/quote]

It`s obviously an answer to a different question to (a)theism. It`s not a third answer to the same question.

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Male 12,365
(a)theism and (a)gnosticism are answers to different questions, not different answers to the same question. That`s even explicitly stated in the words themselves! One is about belief, the other is about knowledge - two different things.

Agnosticism is the general principle that you shouldn`t claim certain knowledge without objective proof. It applies to everything, not just religion.

So in matters of religion there are at least 4 basic positions:

Agnostic theist: Does not claim certain knowledge about the existence of god(s). Believes in god(s) as an act of faith.

Agnostic atheist: Does not claim certain knowledge about the existence of god(s). Does not believe in god(s).

Gnostic theist: Claims certain knowledge of the existence of god(s).

Gnostic atheist: Claims certain knowledge of the non-existence of god(s).
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Male 427
@5cats
you just went full retard. You either believe or you don`t. Not believing = Lack of belief = No belief. Believing something isn`t true means you don`t believe in it. BY DEFINITION. There`s no argument about this, it doesn`t matter what your tiny brain thinks, DEFINITION ARE DEFINITIONS. "Hurr durr I don`t think it`s like that". Doesn`t matter, it`s the definition.

"Disbelief is a FORM OF belief: You believe it`s not true!"
No, it`s the opposite. disbelief is not a form of belief, it`s the EXACT FCKING OPPOSITE of it. How hard is that to understand? Even a 6 year old knows this.
That`s like saying dislike is a form of liking, being blind is a form of seeing and not getting kicked in the balls is a form of getting kicked in the balls.

Seriously, you`re pathetic.


@Shinymetal
"5cats did you even read my comment or did you just skim through it"
Why are you even asking that? It`s 5cats.
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Male 40,290
@ShinyMetal:
Question: Does God(s) exist?
Answers: Yes, No, Maybe, Impossible to say one way or another (different than "maybe").

ALL THREE are answers to the SAME question! Yes they are 4 separate answers, duh! But they all have this in common: they are answers to the same question!

Thus: Theism, Atheism & etc are ALL answers to the same question too.
To pretend otherwise is... idk what.
To lump "maybe" in with "no" is just wrong! They are two separate answers!
Disbelief is a FORM OF belief: You believe it`s not true!
Thinking 101...

Elementary my dear Watson!

I put quotes around "belief" to closely identify it with the earlier "not believe". Clarity, not a "mistake".
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Male 425
Now THERE`S a homeless guy i`d give money to. In agnostic of course.
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Male 171
5cats did you even read my comment or did you just skim through it. It explains very clearly the difference between disbelief and belief.

"You cannot "not believe" something! You can believe it exists, does NOT exist or that you don`t know. ALL THREEE are "beliefs" ok?"

no they are not all three beliefs. Thats why you had to put quotation marks around beliefs. thats your own misguided interperetation of what a belief is when i already listed the definitions last post. It`s not that I believe that I dont believe. That doesnt make any sense. I know I dont believe. Thats called disbelief. and if we really need to define knowledge from belief than you are more delusional than I thought. with your logic belief in disbelief is belief in disbelief is belief in disbelief... and so on forever. You so very often flat out refuse to acknowledge your own logical inconsistencies to fit your own warped agenda. Good day sir.
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Male 40,290
@gargaflute: One penny from the Hindu too... ;-)

That`s not a "hairclip" in the Buddist bowl! It`s a Carabiner!
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Male 125
One penny from the jew of course.
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Male 40,290
@ShinyMetal: 5C: "What is your belief about God?"
SM: "I have no beliefs about God"
5C: "So you believe you have no beliefs?"
SM: "Yes. I mean NO! I mean, wait... what?"

:-)

Do NOT think of a dog! (Ancient Zen paradox)

You cannot "not believe" something! You can believe it exists, does NOT exist or that you don`t know. ALL THREEE are "beliefs" ok?

I believe I do not believe in anything at all!

@ak47reaper: Solipsism Nicely done! Very nice indeed.
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Female 685
LOL Buddhist. Hair elastic.
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Male 117
5Cats,

you belief the proper punishment for deceit immolation. god forbid your wife ever lie to you.
"sorry honey not tonight I`ve got a headache."
"burn!!!"
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Male 117
patchgrabber,

baby are solipsist
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Male 171
5cats: "The act of "religion" is entirely human. A belief in "a God" requires faith, which is also human.
Belief in "NO God" is exactly the same: it is "a belief" which requires "faith" since it`s impossible to prove one way or the other..."

This is the typical way religious people like to equate Atheism with there own religion even though they by definition are absolutely different. Atheism is not a belief it is a disbelief. You say there is an all powerful entity that YOU BELIEVE exists. I DISBELIEVE that claim as you have no evidence to prove otherwise.

Now just to clarify:

BELIEF is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

DISBELIEF is unwillingness or inability to believe; doubt about the truth or verisimilitude of something.

Atheism is religious disbelief and requires a complete LACK of faith. Please stop spouting this tired
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Male 840
Beggars would probably do better if they left off the "God Bless" on the bottom of their signs.
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Male 40,290
@patchy: Babies have baby brains, they don`t believe OR disbelieve in very much at all in the beginning... mostly they eat and sleep.

They LEARN as they grow, eh?
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Male 7,123
5Cats

Begging scams are as old as the hills, someone was probably doing something similar in Babylon - which tribe gives most? There is a whole lexicon of 15th - 19th century slang for begging scams, as I`m sure you know. It`s entertaining.

No-one is making you give and you can disapprove of feckless rogues without wanting to immolate them. That`s a bit harsh.

Anytime you feel the urge to burn strangers you should take a step back and ask where that`s coming from.
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Male 399
[quote]@Langer: Yes! The act of "religion" is entirely human[/quote]

heh, I was pretty much taking the piss with that...as funny as it would be, I doubt I could say that my religion consists of Yahweh, Buddha, Crash Bandicoot, Remilia Scarlet and Super Ted, while keeping a straight face

I would characterise religion more based on the practices and traditions (such as the phrase, "he washes his hand religiously"), however that would also include posting in say /r/atheism, which is really just one huge circlejerk of attempted superiority (as a side note, /r/nongolfers/ is pretty good for being facetious about actively not golfing :-P)
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Male 117
patchgrabber,

monsterzero already tried that he got counter trolled.
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Male 5,811
[quote]it is "a belief" which requires "faith" since it`s impossible to prove one way or the other... [/quote]
FFS you don`t need faith. As I explained before, everyone`s default position is atheistic, as you must be taught religion, and any change from that position requires sufficient "proof" or faith, or whatever. A baby is atheistic, would you say it actively believes there is no God?
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Male 40,290
This "beggar" is just a slick con-man.

I suggest lighter fluid followed by lit wooden matches...

@Langer: Yes! The act of "religion" is entirely human. A belief in "a God" requires faith, which is also human.
Belief in "NO God" is exactly the same: it is "a belief" which requires "faith" since it`s impossible to prove one way or the other...

But I`ll not get into THAT again! Let some others have fun with it! Cheers!
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Male 399
If atheism is a religion, wouldn`t that make religion effectively mental cooties?

Imagine something/anything supernatural, tell someone, then believe or disbelieve it and it is instantly a part of your religion by `touching` you

Well...that`s one way to skew a definition into complete ambiguity
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Male 7,123
ak

That`s a pretty touchy definition of `bash`.
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Male 5,811
@ak4: Oh, I didn`t see it. Doesn`t make it any less possible though. Besides this whole religion thing is moot anyway as it has been shown that you can duplicate religious experience with magnetic fields aimed at the temporal lobes. Combine this with fMRI results showing increased temporal lobe activity (especially left) in those having spiritual experiences, or every medical student being taught that epileptic seizures in the left temporal lobe causes patients to have intense spiritual experiences during those seizures. The most valid theory is that religion and deities are simply a product of our own brains.
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Male 117
patchgrabber,

monsterzero already tried that he got counter trolled.
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Male 5,811
[quote]And yet they seem to have netted the most cash.[/quote]
Or he just moved it to make the religious types want give more.
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Male 117
"Methodists do not recognise each other in the liquor store." lordjim

Second bash.
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Male 117
lordjim,

Christians are not new but a variant on the Jewish faith. i didn`t say they have to disbelieve all of the former religion.
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Male 117
itunes on shuffle playing tim minchin
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Male 7,123
But first;

Jews do not recognise Jesus as the messiah.

Protestants do not recognise the Pope as Christ`s representative on earth.

Methodists do not recognise each other in the liquor store.
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Male 117
lordjim,

i don`t except that religion needs a belief supernatural being. that`s where we differ.

Draculya,

then, well play.
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Female 7,994
Ah Lordjim- do tell- I largely like her work because she demonstrates good sense- I took her argument to be the presentation of some of his work rather than the content. Midgely takes the tone of a good headmistress. however- I still think my point holds good- whilst generally atheism denotes lack of belief, some atheist treat tenets of their disbelief as they would a belief. I think that makes sense... ( give me 1800 words and I`m good LOL...
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Male 7,123
ak,

`the start of ever religion began with the disbelief in the former religion.`

Not really. Christians don`t disbelieve in Abraham or Moses, they believe they have fulfilled and perfected an existing but incomplete truth.

Muslims do not disbelieve in Abraham, Moses or Jesus, but that ... as above.

This has been fun but I have to cook dinner now.
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Male 117
lordjim,

the start of ever religion began with the disbelief in the former religion.
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Male 7,123
ak,

It`s moving so fast that you answered my point just before I made it.

Is Raelism a religion? Or just irrational nonsense? Buddhism has many variants but a huge number of buddhists do regard buddha as a being to whom prayers can be made. That is at variance with learned buddhist philosophy but the the unlettered and unlearned do it anyway. I would regard buddhism as a philosophy rather than a religion but a philosophy which believes that certain practices can reveal a spiritual dimension.
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Male 117
LordJim,

it is, fast and fun.
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Male 117
"Mary Midgely was a sound good philosopher in her time" lordjim

religious texts are older.
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Male 15,178
"Draculya congrats you the posts first religion bash-er."

That`s what I do best.

I was actually bashing agnosticism; religion was just a side swipe.
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Male 117
at monsterzero
you trolled it first, I counter trolled you.
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Male 1,239
[quote]Silly bum, atheism and agnosticism aren`t religions.[/quote]

And yet they seem to have netted the most cash.
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Male 7,123
Ak,

(May I call you AK?)

No worries, it`s a fast moving topic. Fun, eh?

`but a belief in the lack of gods does imply the start of a religion.`

You are going to have to join the dots for me on that one, since I define religion as a shared system of belief based on a supernatural being, which may or may not be petitioned.

At it`s simplest atheism to be is just finding no good reason to believe in any god and finding vey good reasons to disbelieve in any specified god.
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Male 117
at lordjim
"religion is a shared belief system based around a supernatural being."

Buddhism, Raelism are religions that don`t believe in supernatural being.

Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.[
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Male 7,123
madduck,

Mary Midgely was a sound good philosopher in her time and produced a valuable body of work. She`s also a lovely person - I knew her son at uni and we would go round the house and be awed by her kindness and willingness to take callow under-grads seriously. But she is no biologist and simply misunderstood Dawkins` `selfish gene` arguement.
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Male 117
At lordjim
"Also, lack of religion does not imply lack of belief."

no, but a belief in the lack of gods does imply the start of a religion.
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Male 358
@Ak47:
"how do we know you didn`t stage it. So you could casually call atheist dishonest."

You don`t.
That`s why crap like this un-debatable.
You may think it`s reason to debate whether or not God exists or why religion sucks, or whatever you want to argue about between Atheism an religion.
The fact is that it would seem propaganda troll has done his job well.
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Male 117
at LordJim

I corrected, my apology.
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Male 117
At least we got to page 2 first.
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Male 7,123
ak47reaper

That wasn`t me. I was the (agnostic) atheist previous post.
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Male 117
Draculya congrats you the posts first religion bash-er.
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Male 117
I spoke to soon.
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Female 7,994
In most cases an atheist simply does not believe in a god (any god) - some atheists have other beliefs and intentions which they express in a way which could be comparable to a religion (see Mary Midgely on Dawkins). However- we can and should define first what is meant by the term `God` - that is where a lot of confusion seems to crop up. Then we need to look at where this `God` - if you admit one or something- operates. it will be damn hard to prove or disprove some agency outside of space and time- outside this universe. What we can do is pretty comprehensively disprove the God of Abraham- or most other named Gods who have properties which we can measure. Then- if you claim a particular atheist is treating it as a belief system, you need to look at the claims made by them. Some notable atheist do have a faintly messianic streak- others are just non believers.
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Male 7,123
Also, lack of religion does not imply lack of belief. It`s perfectly possible to believe in a god (even one with specific attributes) and yet adhere to no religion.

Lack of belief does, however imply lack of religion since religion is a shared belief system based around a supernatural being. Although some people may associate with or even become active in a religion while privately not believing in the central supernatural being. They may do this because of fear of the consequences of open unbelief or because of percieved advantages of feigned belief. There are quite a lot of priests and pastors who have lost their belief but still need a job that involves no heavy lifting. And even more who `belong` to a religion to avoid upsetting the family.

(note: `upsetting the family` may involve anything from tensions at christmas dinner to being murdered by your parents.)
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Male 117
sorry meant Denogginizer
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Male 117
at LordJim
time for another religion bashing post.

nobody`s bash anything but atheism and there their saying it is not a religion. so there is no religion bashing going on here.
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Male 15,178
You flip a coin a thousand times. It comes up tails a thousand times. On detailed examination, the coin shows it has obviously been doctored to come up tails. Scientists everywhere agree it`s a crooked coin.

The atheist bets on tails.

The religious person bets on heads, because his imaginary friend will fix the outcome for him.

The agnostic puts down a hundred bucks either way, just in case.
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Male 820
It`s a day that ends in a "Y", time for another religion bashing post. Copy/paste the comments section from the previous post aaaand done.
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Male 7,123
Oh dear, are we doing this again?

Gnostic = belief that one can have knowledge about god or gods.

Agnostic = belief that one cannot have knowledge about god or gods.

Atheist gnostic = one who believes that they can know for certain that there is no god. Very few of those because of the logical impossibility of proving a negative. Never met one.

Atheist agnostic = one who does not believe there can be certain knowledge but who has chosen not to believe because they have found no compelling reason to believe. Lots of those.

Gnostic theist = one who believes that certain knowledge of god is possible and that they have it. Lots & lots of those.

Agnostic theist = one who believes there can be no certain knowledge of god but who choose to believe because they have found arguments or experiences they conside compelling. Not too many, but some of these.

(`gnostic` used here does not refer to gnosticism, which may be confusing.)
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Male 5,811
[quote]gods not god your personalizing atheist as not believing in your god.[/quote]
It was an example; I don`t have a God.
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Male 5,811
But if you *really* wanted to get nitpicky you could say that atheism believes that God doesn`t exist, but that hardly makes it a religion.
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Male 15,178
I love that we can`t agree on atheism or that agnosticism represents a lack of religion.
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Male 117
at patchgrabber
gods not god your personalizing atheist as not believing in your god. they believe no gods are need for the creation of omni.
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Male 5,811
[quote]Either you have an argument not to believe in x or you have a belief that say`s x doesn`t exist.[/quote]

Sort of, yes. If I hear an argument for God that I don`t find convincing, either due to inaccurate translation of texts, or due to the fact that they say the Earth was created 1000 years after the Sumerians invented beer, that may be all that is required to deny belief. Keep in mind that what you`re saying is akin to "You don`t believe what I do so what do you believe?" when a more accurate representation of this problem is:

"Do you believe this?"
"No."

I don`t require an alternative explanation as to why I don`t believe in unicorns other than I haven`t seen compelling evidence that they DO exist, which is not a belief, rather, it is subject to logic. Like I said, atheism DOES NOT make assertions about how things came to be other than refuting that it is God.
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Male 74
No, you see it isnt. I genuinely have no belief. The definition of atheist personally BUT have just spoken to someone of this I can see how there could be belief systems as such, in more militant atheists such as Dawkins etc, indoctrination in science and such.
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Male 117
religion does not require a belief in a supreme being.
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Male 2,419
@patchgrabber, nice try, but how is that going to stick?

Either you have an argument not to believe in x or you have a belief that say`s x doesn`t exist.

(the concept has been brought to you attention, and you only have a binary response to it. as much as i dislike it)

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Male 117
the statement "i believe x doesn`t exist" is except able.
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Male 117
i meant that they believe no gods exist. sorry that statement could have been read either way.
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Male 74
Noun. A person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being.

< Greek áthe(os) godless. adj. derivative of theós god) + -ist]

atheist, agnostic, infidel refer to persons lacking religious belief or a particular religious faith. An atheist denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic believes it is impossible to know whether there is a God without sufficient evidence. An infidel is an unbeliever, esp. one who does not accept Christianity or Islam; the word is usu. pejorative.

So lacking belief... simples! :-P
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Male 117
at patchgrabber
i just arguing for the sake of arguing. I`m an omni-theist, i believe all gods exist to some extent. But i worship none.
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Male 5,811
[quote]my point still stands atheism a religion as a religion does not have to believe in a god. just collection of belief systems. such as believing all gods don`t exist[/quote]
So since Christians don`t believe in most gods, just one, are they also atheists?
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Male 117
my point still stands atheism a religion as a religion does not have to believe in a god. just collection of belief systems. such as believing all gods don`t exist
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Male 5,811
@MrOrange: Absence of belief is not belief.
*Fixed*
[quote]So the argument is:
religiuos person: i believe in X,
atheist: I don`t believe in X.[/quote]
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Male 5,811
@ak4: My point was mostly nitpicking. While the vast majority of atheists use science as an explanation, it is technically not required. The thing that gets me going is that no one needs to "believe" in science, the difference is, if you don’t believe it (and you’re properly motivated), then you can go out and test it. Science isn`t about belief, it`s about observation.

[quote]Since conceptions of atheism vary i will concede your point if you accept a learned atheist as a substitute.[/quote]

Sure, why not?
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Male 117
at monsterzero
how do we know you didn`t stage it. So you could casually call atheist dishonest.
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Male 2,419
"The only requirement is not believing"

So the argument is:
religiuos person: i believe in X,
atheist: actually i believe x is untrue.

Wether or not you subscribe to any theory is irrelevant, you do not believe x is true hence you believe in something, the untrueness of x.
and unless you can prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt. it is plain and simple a belief.

i know a lot of you atheist are gonna hate me for this and tell me i`m wrong. Please do! i`ve been breaking my teeth on this one for years (and make it good please, it has to stand up to a fair amount of scrutiny)
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Male 117
at JacobTrue13
so you caught that, I thought it would stir peoples passions as most assume atheist think of themselves as logical.
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Male 358
How do we know he didn`t take the money from other bowls to fill the Atheist bowl for the picture?
Also, how do we know this picture wasn`t staged by atheists?
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Male 399
hairband from the Buddists...funny guys
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Male 312
Test is skewed. depending on the area he is in there will be a greater number of 1 religion over another. In order to do a proper test he would have to go to each area where the religion strongest and then beg for money in each area.
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Male 260
"atheism is the belief in science, mathematics and their ability to explain the world around them."

Errr, no. Atheism is lack of belief in god(s). That`s it. There is no inherent connection to science, mathematics, or anything like that. Some atheists may even have supernatural beliefs - as long as they don`t believe in gods, they`re still atheists. That kind of atheist may be rare, but there`s no reason why it can`t happen.

Adding `belief in science` to the concept of atheism is an attempt to make atheists seem smarter and more rational, and though I personally believe that atheism is the most rational stance on question of whether god exists, there are stupid atheists and smart theists.
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Male 117
at Swaywithme
their like amateur con men.
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Male 684
a tenner for the atheists
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Female 3,696
ugghh there was a really good post about this on Tumblr. Not everyone that`s homeless look like a beggar and not all beggars are homeless, but beggars usually try to be as unkempt and looking as "in need" as possible, because the money is better.

This guy throws me off because he obviously has the means to regularly shave his head, he`s got nice, modern clothing in good, clean condition, a nice little cooler bag there, probably with his lunch in it...See right above it? He has a charger plugged in...phone? I`m willing to bet this guy goes home to a nice little apartment at the end of the day...A clever, but amateur beggar taking advantage of people`s pride. Funny
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Male 117
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. Since conceptions of atheism vary i will concede your point if you accept a learned atheist as a substitute.

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Male 5,811
[quote]Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.[/quote]
But "belief" in science or mathematics is not a requirement for atheism. The only requirement is not believing. Atheism itself makes no assertions about how things came to be or how things work.
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Male 117
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.
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Male 5,811
[quote]atheism is the belief[/quote]
No.
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Female 2,549
Well? Which one?
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Male 117
incorrect. Religion is an organized collection of belief systems, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values.

atheism is the belief in science, mathematics and their ability to explain the world around them.


but ya he`s not homeless with those shoes their in to good of condition.
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Male 2,578
It`s a pretty ubiquitous statistic that religious people give more in charity than people who aren`t.

This guy is just a good marketer, he`s making people give money who otherwise wouldn`t so they can basically jerk off to how tolerant and caring their religion, or lack thereof, is. "Well, my good deed is done now".
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Female 1,539
Um....aren`t Atheists absent of religion?
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Male 642
[quote]
I don`t believe this guy is homeless.
[/quote]

He never said that he was.
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Male 5,811
Silly bum, atheism and agnosticism aren`t religions.
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Male 4,891

I don`t believe this guy is homeless.
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Male 15,178
Link: Which Religion Cares Most About the Homeless [Pic] [Rate Link] - Let`s just say that religion isn`t winning
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