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Date: 04/16/13 05:34 PM

122 Responses to The Socialist Brain Of A Liberal Democrat [Pic]

  1. Profile photo of SweepOfDeath
    SweepOfDeath Male 18-29
    938 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 5:35 pm
    Link: The Socialist Brain Of A Liberal Democrat - I think they made the tumor too small.
  2. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 5:46 pm
    I think it`s interesting that the right doesn`t include "caring for others` well-being without the need for reward or profit" a part of having "personal responsibility". It`s all very selfish and self-centered for them. Ironic when they claim to be so much more religious than everyone else.
  3. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 5:48 pm
    Trolling. I`m really not in the mood for partisan discourse right now, with yesterday`s events still fresh.
  4. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 5:57 pm
  5. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3909 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 6:24 pm

  6. Profile photo of sirdave80
    sirdave80 Male 18-29
    181 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 6:26 pm
    poo, i though the LIBERAL HIPPIES mindset died in the 70`s, looks like i was wrong
  7. Profile photo of Geogypsy
    Geogypsy Female 18-29
    2546 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 6:39 pm
    On a completely unrelated note...

  8. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:07 pm
    The "Moral Relativity Gray Area" is far too small! It`s the most powerful "doublethink" part of the liberal brain! Even pushing the "P.C. Lobe" out if necessary!!!

    @Gerry1: Republican Adultery? Like A.Weiner, Jesse Jackson Sr, John Edwards, or PotUS Bill Clinton? -OR- when he was Governor and had a mistress for a decade? -OR- the OTHER women he sexually assaulted?

    Oh yeah, NO Democrat EVER cheated on his/her spouse...
  9. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:11 pm
    I`m only here to watch 5Cats, OldOllie, and CrakrJak simultaneously orgasm.
  10. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:12 pm

    How many people opened this expecting to see it posted by 5cats?
    (davymid?)
  11. Profile photo of freddyferret
    freddyferret Male 40-49
    11741 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:19 pm
    It`s better than the empty space in the head of a conservative Republican.
  12. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:37 pm
    I think this is a good post and well thought out. I am glad to have seen it.

    Original poster`s email if you`d like to tell him how good this post is: [email protected]

    "Favorite Book: dont read much"

    Well, that is just SHOCKING.
  13. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 7:58 pm
    @turdy: That`s an EXCELLENT point! Potential "thread winner" right there!

    So @davymid: This breaks up your "5Cats Streak" or not? ;-)

    (It`s all in good fun!)
  14. Profile photo of Shinymetal
    Shinymetal Male 18-29
    171 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:06 pm
    Now wait just a darn minute here! I for one am outraged! Im just now realizing it says 5cats is from Canada. Is that accurate? If so why are you so hung up on American politics? I don`t mean to sound rude. I would honestly like to know.

    Also, as someone who is tired of both libs and conservatives equally, I`d have to point out it is exactly this kind of stuff that makes conservatives look like bullies.
  15. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    "Republican Adultery? Like A.Weiner, Jesse Jackson Sr, John Edwards, or PotUS Bill Clinton?"
    No, they all did it with the opposite sex.
  16. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:27 pm
    Funny I was expecting this to be one of OldOllie`s posts.

    Oh yeah, NO Democrat EVER cheated on his/her spouse...

    Last I checked they weren`t the party of "family values".
  17. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:27 pm
    Gerry1of1

    Most men would cheat given the opportunity.

    Powerful men, famous men, and rich men have the opportunity frequently.

    Politicians are all 3.

    The difference is that liberal cheaters don`t typical run on "good ol wholesome christian family values", so the hypocrisy isn`t quite as poignant.
  18. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:27 pm
    Cajun247

    Get off my brain wave. ;)
  19. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:30 pm
    @Shinymetal: I live next door to an 800 pound gorilla... it`s a good idea to keep "one eye on him" at all times...
    Besides, Canadian politics is boring!

    @Gerry1: That`s a separate, even longer list of Democrats... but since the MSM never covers those stories? You`ve probably never heard of them...

    Like The Gosnell Trial: it`s been going on for WEEKS! All 4 MSM Networks "embargo`d" it. Only 2 have (half heartedly) covered it, the other two are SILENT.

    Rich White Girl goes missing in Aruba? Front Page News!
    Black Abortion Doctor murders 7? *crickets*
  20. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:35 pm
    Last I checked they weren`t the party of "family values".
    @Cajun: You show me the Democrat campaign posters that say "We Do NOT Support The US Family!" "No Family Values in OUR Platform!" "End The US Family Structure: Vote Democrat!"

    OK? Every politician in EVERY party (all 6 parties in Canada) HAS TO SAY they support "the family" or they`d be GONZO so fast...

    Obama must have said it 1,000 times on his campaign on 2008...

    liberal cheaters don`t typical run on "good ol wholesome christian family values",
    Point the out @HolyGod: I`m fascinated... linkt heir campaing ads where they say "...to HELL with traditional American values!" I`m all ears! Eyes? Nose too.
  21. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:43 pm
    You show me the Democrat campaign posters that say "We Do NOT Support The US Family!" "No Family Values in OUR Platform!" "End The US Family Structure: Vote Democrat!"

    I was referring to the "family values" used to justify government intrusion into the bedroom dude. The family values that includes nonsense like the "destruction to the family structure by gay marriage". Those family values.
  22. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:52 pm
    @Cajun: Both sides are equally guilty, they just call it different things.
    "No Prayer in School... for the children! Unless they`re Muslin, then that`s a "cultural activity" which is OK!"
    "No guns in school... for the children!"
    "We support abortion... for the children!"
    "Parents have NO say about what schools teach... for the children!"
    "We have to BAN large soda containers... for the children!!"

    See?

    Both parties say the exact same words: I Support American Family Values! Period. (ok, this is usually followed but those evil (other party) do NOT!)
  23. Profile photo of Geogypsy
    Geogypsy Female 18-29
    2546 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 8:58 pm
    *gasp* 5Cats, you think that Canadian politics are boring? My goodness, I think that you`re failing to see a lot of humor...;-)
  24. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14653 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 9:01 pm
    The absent brain of a conservative republican

  25. Profile photo of Modwain
    Modwain Male 40-49
    336 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 9:15 pm
    i can only say that i am amamzed that communism and socialism seems to be the same thing for many `mericuhns.

    but then, there is something inherently dangerous in accepting it isnt so i guess.. you may need to revieuw yur stand on helping those less fortunate without expecting a pay day for it i guess.. And i do realize that in a country where money rules
    ( even the mind it seems ) its all about the payday.
  26. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 9:36 pm
    Modwain

    "i can only say that i am amamzed that communism and socialism seems to be the same thing for many `mericuhns."

    It is because the rich have used their propaganda machine (FOX News, talk radio, and right wing blogs) to systematically brainwash conservatives into believing socialism = communism. Why do you think billionaires like Adelson and the Koch brothers pour millions into Republican campaigns? They want their taxes to go down.

    Communism is bad and evil so socialism must be bad and evil. Never mind that public schools, public safety, public roads, social security, medicaid, etc are all socialism at work.

    John Steinbeck said it best:

    "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
  27. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 9:59 pm
    @Geogypsy: All Canadian politics is identical! Budget debate? Foreign policy? Taxes? Laws? It ALWAYS goes like this:

    Liberals: Conservatives are EVIL!
    NDP: Conservatives are EVIL!
    Block Quebecois: Les Conservatives a le EVIL!
    Green Party: Conservatives are EVIL!

    Conservatives: Hey, let`s try to stay on topic and solve this problem together, eh?

    Liberals: NO! Do it the Liberal way!
    NDP: NO! Do it the NDP way!
    Block: NON! Seperatez avec Canada, oiu!
    Green Party: NO! It would hurt the flowers!

    CBC Reports: Canada United! Conservatives are wrong and refuse negotiate to boot! Plus: They`re EVIL!!!

    You know it`s true...
  28. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 10:07 pm
    @modwain & others: Because EVERY attempt at Socialism or Communism in the past has brought PARADISE to Earth, right?

    Nazi Socialism: not so much...
    Lenin`s Communism: Er, not at all.
    Stalin`s Communism: Even less so...
    Mao`s Socialism: Paradise! Oh no, that came when they introduced CAPITALISM... much later...
    North Korea`s Communism: LOLZ!
    Cuba`s Communism: Working exactly as Castro planned...
    Venezuela`s Socialism: Not so hot really...
    Pol Pot`s Socialism: Hell on Earth
    Robert Mugabe`s Communism: Made Zimbabwe what it is today :-)!!! That`s exactly how America should turn out too!!!!
  29. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 10:18 pm
    HG: "It is because the rich have used their propaganda machine..."

    It`s because many immigrants that used to live under "socialism" and have taught us how horrible it is. Russia (USSR) called itself socialist, China calls itself socialist, North Korea calls itself socialist. There is no confusion, it`s what they label(ed) themselves.

    "public schools, .. social security, medicaid, etc are all socialism at work."

    That`s what socialists like yourself would have the rest of us believe, but that`s incorrect. We have a representative republic, multi-party, free-speech, democratically elected government OF the people.

    Socialism is a one-party, government owned industry, state controlled speech, with ruling elites that count all the votes in their favor for perpetuity.

    A Democracy with some social programs is not "socialism" anymore that a Socialist state with "free elections" is a democracy.
  30. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 10:40 pm
    Wel crackjunkie oldfollie, 5mads,

    I hope you enjoyed that. Don`t forget to clean up now!
  31. Profile photo of bacon_pie
    bacon_pie Male 30-39
    3061 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 10:49 pm
    Just remember these two things kiddies...Socialism is for everyone but the socialist, and, be wary of a government that stops pointing their guns outside and start pointing their guns inside.
  32. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 10:59 pm
    CrakrJak

    "That`s what socialists like yourself would have the rest of us believe, but that`s incorrect."

    I run my own business, employ people, make six figures, and invest in the stock market. Unlike you, I don`t take a penny from the government and never have.

    I just feel that people like me who are fortunate and talented enough to have the lives we have owe a moral obligation to make sure people like you are still able to survive and have a reasonable life. How does that make me a socialist?

    Capitalism and socialism can coexist. It is not an either / or proposition.

    I`d like to live in a country where people create, invent, invest, live their dreams, and make millions but are taxed at a rate that allows the less fortunate to have access to food, shelter, education, and the ability to also do the same.
  33. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 11:09 pm
    If you think socialism = soviet union, china, north korea, and other third world dystopian dictatorships exclusively, please spend 10 minutes and read about socialism.

    http://tinyurl.com/jnfe5

    There are many different types and they coexist and meld with democracy and capitalism.

    One of my personal favorites is the Nordic method:

    http://tinyurl.com/ybu7kmg

    Ah yes, the oppressive miserable wasteland of poverty and despair that is sweden.

    Karl Marx was brilliant and his system would create a beautiful utopia except for one thing: human nature. People are far too selfish for true marxism to work. That is why socialism sucks as a standalone system. It requires a hybrid with capitalism so that it can take care of the bottom 70% while they try to join the top 30% enjoying the benefits of capitalism.
  34. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 16, 2013 at 11:16 pm
    By the way, check the top 4 out:

    http://tinyurl.com/3yb3b9s

    Kind of a shocking coincidence no?
  35. Profile photo of Nageki
    Nageki Male 30-39
    110 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:18 am
    All bollocks. No matter how you look at it. All the comments will be pure political drivel and most of it will be total BS. From both sides of the argument. I will leave you all to trolling the "Other side" now...
  36. Profile photo of Sleepyhallow
    Sleepyhallow Male 50-59
    1983 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 1:33 am
    At least Liberals HAVE a brain.
  37. Profile photo of CreamK
    CreamK Male 40-49
    1423 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 2:45 am
    Yup, pretty happy here, living in the cluster of "top-three countries" in happiness, education, equality, birth mortality, almost all the categories.. But we are losing our socialist stuff, banks are creeping in. US based banks that is, they are ousting progressives replacing them with their own guys, decreasing taxes from the top and freezing wages.. Sound familiar?
  38. Profile photo of thubanstar
    thubanstar Female 50-59
    823 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 4:08 am
    No! Of course this is not a sterotype! What would make you say that?

    Wow... This is what conservatives think of when they think "liberal".

    I`m going to join the growing number of people who are tired of all this extremist crap and say this is total B.S.
  39. Profile photo of trippyhippy9
    trippyhippy9 Male 18-29
    559 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 4:50 am
    9/10 Conservative Republicans think this is a photograph and didn`t realize that a brain doesn`t look like that.
  40. Profile photo of andybme
    andybme Male 50-59
    296 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 5:48 am
    One could do the same diagram of a conservatives brain and only draw cobwebs.
  41. Profile photo of gladhatter
    gladhatter Male 50-59
    219 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 5:50 am
    Spot on
  42. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    579 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 6:16 am
    I`m an avid conservative so I am fully expecting the "conservative`s brain" graphic in 3... 2... 1...

    So, once we get this out our systems can get back to trying to figure out to get two polar opposite viewpoints to live peacefully in one country?
  43. Profile photo of handmadebeat
    handmadebeat Male 60-69
    20 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 6:19 am
    The Conservative brain of a republican, it would be something like: Pro life but, let`s NOT help when the child is alive in the world/ Pro War/ We are better than everyone else in the world/ Let`s go buy the biggest SUV we can find/ let the corporations run the world and tell us what to do, they know best/ Let`s go have a Big Mac from McDonald`s. Did I forget anything?? Oh, I think I did --let`s see who can gain the most weight the fastest, so we can ride a hover round scooter with a american flag sticking out of the back. Then we can shop at Walmart and buy crap made in China.
  44. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36842 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 6:26 am

    HolyGod...yeah, that was kinda my point.
  45. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 6:29 am
    @HolydGod

    I run my own business, employ people, make six figures, and invest in the stock market. Unlike you, I don`t take a penny from the government and never have.
    Ditto.

    I just feel that people like me who are fortunate and talented enough to have the lives we have owe a moral obligation to make sure people like you are still able to survive and have a reasonable life.
    Ditto.

    Capitalism and socialism can coexist. It is not an either / or proposition.
    Ditto.

    ...but are taxed at a rate
    Why does it need to be done through taxes? Why is charity not a viable option? The US has historically been one of the most generous nations on the planet - why would that be less likely if taxes were lowered. The last time I saw estimates, 5 of every 6 collected tax dollars got spent in the system - not on the people who need them.
  46. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:15 am
    HumanAction

    "Why does it need to be done through taxes? Why is charity not a viable option?"

    Because obviously charity doesn`t do the job. If it did over a million kids wouldn`t starve to death every month.

    "5 of every 6 collected tax dollars got spent in the system"

    That sounds rather shocking. I`m going to need a link to a credible source to believe that. I am ALL for tax reform and less bureaucracy. I know you guys think I`m a super lefty but I think you could EASILY cut government spending and size in half across the board.

    In my mind people buying $400,000 umbrella stands or bathing their dogs in imported spring water when there are people dying painfully from completely preventable causes is morally unconscionable. I don`t know how you fix the problem but the means are there to fix it. If charity solved the problem the problem would be solved by now.
  47. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4080 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:16 am
    I think 5cats is one of the loonies that lives out in Newfoundland :)
  48. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    4080 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:19 am
    Charity is an option but it`s not THE option. If Charity was it would have fixed the problem, it hasn`t and isn`t. Just like HG said if it would have solved the problem it would be the solution. Unfortunately human nature creeps in and you need to force some people to return money back to society.
  49. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:31 am
    @HolyGod

    "Because obviously charity doesn`t do the job. If it did over a million kids wouldn`t starve to death every month."

    Via the same reasoning, neither does redistribution. After all, we`ve tried several different rates and varieties and have yet to solve the problem. All of my research indicates that redistribution has done more harm than good; the problem being that, the harms of redistribution are measured in economic losses (which cause the same problems such as unemployment, etc.).

    "I`m going to need a link to a credible source to believe that."

    Mises.org

    Page 9 - "...then the cost of delivering each dollar of subsidy to a recipient is not three dollars worth of things they want being lost by the taxpayers, but three times 1.65, or nearly
    five dollars worth."
  50. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:36 am
    @HolyGod

    As per the research cited above:

    "Robert L. Woodson (1989, p. 63) calculated that, on average, 70 cents of each dollar budgeted for government assistance goes not to the poor, but to the members of the welfare bureaucracy and others serving the poor. Michael Tanner (1996, p. 136 n. 18) cites regional studies supporting this 70/30 split."

    This is a conservative estimate (7:3) since it does not account for the economic costs and personal costs associated with tax collection. Even so, that`s $2.33 to the bureaucracy for every $1 redistributed. Meanwhile the estimate from this article, which accounts for the losses mentioned above, estimate that roughly $5 go to the bureaucracy for every $1 redistributed.
  51. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:38 am
    @normalfreak2: You`ve got an American`s knowledge of Canada bro! Missed by 3,000 miles! "Loonies" live in British Columbia. Know where Washington State is? Go North... we call it "Lotus Land" because it`s been overrun by hippies & pot smokers since the 60`s.
    Newfoundlanders are their own stereotype! Right @davymid!
    I`m a "Prairie Folk" who lives in Manitoba.

    ""5 of every 6 collected tax dollars got spent in the system"" Sounds about right to me. I know for sure that our Provincial Welfare system spends $3 on itself for every $1 it "gives away". It would almost be cheaper to just GIVE ANYONE who asked the money...

    Capitalism and Socialism can "get along"? Well it does in Canada. It`s when Communism rears it`s ugly head that the troubles begin. Call it "Fascism" if you like, to me they`re interchangeable... I oppose BOTH.
  52. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:40 am
    @HolyGod

    In my mind people buying $400,000 umbrella stands or bathing their dogs in imported spring water when there are people dying painfully from completely preventable causes is morally unconscionable.
    It is to me as well. However, I also see the forceful taking of ones property and giving to another as morally unconscionable. The problem is that the price point is completely arbitrary.

    Sure, let`s take everything over $1b. But why not $1m? Why not $50k? The price point is a subjective, arbitrary number. Therefore, picking a very high price point only serves the purpose of allowing the bigger group to "pick on" the smaller group.

    If we limited it to $30k, we could all live on that no problem. It wouldn`t be a plush life, but, imagine all of the problems we could "solve". Isn`t this the reasoning you are employing?
  53. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:44 am
    HG: From your link, first sentence, "Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production.."

    Just what I said it was.

    Your second link is a "Social Democracy", not pure socialism. They all have extraordinarily high taxes and are propped up by capitalist enterprises such as oil exploration and cruise lines. These countries are more Keynesian than Marxist.

    "Karl Marx was brilliant.."

    Just what a real socialist would think.

    Groucho Marx was vastly more brilliant and funnier too. "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."

    Just what democrats do, they see problems everywhere and taxes and more regulation are their only answers.
  54. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:53 am
    HumanAction

    "If we limited it to $30k, we could all live on that no problem. It wouldn`t be a plush life, but, imagine all of the problems we could "solve". Isn`t this the reasoning you are employing?"

    $30k would impede people from living their lives as they see fit. I think every person has the right to live their life however they want if it doesn`t impede on that right for others.

    A billion IS arbitrary but it is so high that it would in no way affect the people it targets. You couldn`t really spend a billion dollars if you wanted to, so it doesn`t impede on them living their lives. They could continue to live just as they do today, its just that instead of arbitrary numbers on a bank statement hungry people would be getting food and sick people would be getting medicine.
  55. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:02 am
    Craker

    From your link, first sentence, "Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production.."

    What is your point? That is pure socialism. I would never want that. Pure socialism says you sit at home all day, a kid works at mcdonalds, I work 80 hours a week running a business, and then we all throw the money in the pot and split it 3 ways. F.UCK that.

    I don`t know what point you think you are making. I want to adopt parts of socialism, NOT socialism. Whether you like it or not, the social security you live on is a socialist institution. Some socialism, like public schools, is good.

    "Just what a real socialist would think."

    See you are of the narrow minded idea that if you don`t agree with someone they can`t be smart. You probably think I`m stupid because of that. I think Karl Rove is concentrated evil, but I also think he is a genius.
  56. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:15 am
    @HolyGod

    A billion IS arbitrary but it is so high that it would in no way affect the people it targets.
    Except they would be affected: they would lose some of their net wealth. No matter how good it sounds, I consider the forceful taking of another`s property, without the property owners consent, to be immoral.

    I don`t see the difference between this idea, and a disadvantaged youth stealing a diamond ring from upper middle class Mrs. Smith so he can make ends meet for the week.

    While we feel sorry for the hungry man who steals bread in order to feed his family, deep down, we still know that it is wrong.

    There are many other facets of this idea that should be explored in addition to the morality side. For example, how would we disperse this money to 3rd world nations while preventing their governments from pocketing it? Would we attack them to ensure compliance?
  57. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:16 am
    Universal healthcare, including mental. Completely change public schooling to focus more on real world skills and knowledge. Implement a minimum livable wage and leave minimum wage for students and people under 21. Subsidize the livable wage for small businesses that truly can`t afford it. Stop using any oil that doesn`t come from north america. Secure the borders absolutely and make illegal immigration a steeply punishable offense. However make legal immigration a process that is easy and quick enough that people don`t NEED to come illegally. Change congressional terms so that people can worry about governing instead of always running for election. Straight popular vote for president. Free candy.
  58. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:16 am
    Crakr

    "Just what democrats do, they see problems everywhere and taxes and more regulation are their only answers."

    I`m not a democrat. You seem to think I am lockstep, so let me be clear:

    I would cut the government in half. Cut federal spending in half. Raise taxes to 40% on people making over $10 million and have no taxes on people making $50,000 or less. Close tax loopholes. Raise sales tax. Eliminate sales tax on food. Almost completely eliminate welfare, including disability (sorry) and replace it with an expansive public works system. You want a job? Done. 0% unemployment, but no more hand outs. You injured? Outside of being in a coma we can find a job you can do. Aim the public works system at fixing our infrastructure and moving to greener technology. Turn drug fighting money into drug fixing money.
  59. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:23 am
    its just that instead of arbitrary numbers on a bank statement hungry people would be getting food and sick people would be getting medicine.

    The money in your bank doesn`t sit around and collect dust dude. It gets borrowed, invested which creates more machines, capital, and opportunities for everyone. The same is true for Warren Buffet. If governments just let people trade as they see fit a lot more people could get the food and medicine they needed.

    I know you guys think I`m a super lefty but I think you could EASILY cut government spending and size in half across the board.

    Do you support ending MediCare and OASDI? Let`s take a chunk out of the military while we`re at it.
  60. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:23 am
    HumanAction

    "I consider the forceful taking of another`s property, without the property owners consent, to be immoral."

    So you view income taxes, any income taxes as immoral?

    Let`s say my plan is immoral in your view. Is it MORE immoral than a child starving to death?

    "There are many other facets of this idea that should be explored in addition to the morality side. For example, how would we disperse this money to 3rd world nations while preventing their governments from pocketing it?"

    For sure. I just think it makes an interesting discussion. You don`t distribute money. You use the money to fund groups to build schools, install water and sanitation, distribute food and medicine. You don`t give impoverished people money, you give them what they need to survive.
  61. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:28 am
    @HolyGod

    So you view income taxes, any income taxes as immoral?
    Absolutely; an income tax is quite literally a government`s claim to part of your life. According to the government, independent of the quantity of public goods you use, part of your life belongs to them.

    In my opinion, the federal government should only collect taxes directly from the states (F U 16th Amendment!). The states should be responsible for collecting taxes from the citizens.

    Ideally then, the states would levy a sales tax or consumption tax (excise taxes included) in order to gather revenue from the citizens.

    You don`t give impoverished people money, you give them what they need to survive.
    The logistics involved would be astounding. People would be required to evaluate, collect, oversee, and provide the final product. This sounds like a very expensive plan.
  62. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:33 am
    Cajun247

    "Do you support ending MediCare and OASDI? Let`s take a chunk out of the military while we`re at it."

    End medicare? If you have universal healthcare you no longer need medicare.

    End OASDI? Yes. Social security is forced retirement planning. People can plan their own retirement if they are taught how and they want to.

    You don`t need thousands of different government programs and safety nets if you have a few that work.

    "Let`s take a chunk out of the military while we`re at it."

    ABSOLUTELY. IF you need to spend more on your defense than the next 15 highest spending countries than you have other issues. Cut defense in half. You telling me we can`t adequately defend ourselves for triple what second place spends? The problem is that it isn`t "defense" it is "offense".
  63. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:33 am
    HG: "the social security you live on is a socialist institution."

    No it`s not, people have from the very beginning paid into the SS system through their payroll, whether or not they earned enough to be taxed in the first place.

    It is setup like a Ponzi scheme of sorts, but ran by the government (as if that made it kosher). It should`ve been setup like 401k plans and other private retirement plans. If it had that would`ve made them inheritable and actually helped families build wealth through generations.

    However, that`s not how things are and we have to deal with the system as it is, because no one and I mean no one is going to touch that third rail of politics now.

    "I want to adopt parts of socialism.."

    Your grand plan isn`t feasible, nor would it ever gain acceptance.
  64. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:39 am
    CrakrJak

    "No it`s not, people have from the very beginning paid into the SS system through their payroll, whether or not they earned enough to be taxed in the first place."

    Everyone throws into a pot, depending on how much they make and then it is distributed evenly later? That sounds like pure socialism to me. Maybe I am missing something.

    "Your grand plan isn`t feasible, nor would it ever gain acceptance."

    What grand plan you referring to? The nobody keeps over a billion thing that was completely hypothetical, or that whole list of things I just posted?
  65. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:39 am
    @HolyGod

    Let`s say my plan is immoral in your view.
    Not sure how I missed that part... But, to clarify, your plan is immoral in my view.

    Is it MORE immoral than a child starving to death?
    There are some issues I take with the question at hand: first, it implies that your plan would prevent more children from starving than it would cause; second, it implies that it would prevent more deaths than the alternative I`ve mentioned.

    These are huge assumptions and should be argued as assumptions rather than facts.

    To address point one, I have yet to see any government redistribution have a net benefit for the poor. The result is always a greater wealth disparity. (Will discuss further... - char limit)

    For the second point, I simply ask, which groups are more likely to cause starving children: government, charity, or parents? I do not think it is charity.
  66. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:42 am
    CrakrJak

    "No it`s not, people have from the very beginning paid into the SS system through their payroll, whether or not they earned enough to be taxed in the first place."

    Everyone throws into a pot, depending on how much they make and then it is distributed evenly later? That sounds like pure socialism to me. Maybe I am missing something.

    "It should`ve been setup like 401k plans"

    Totally agree. Put the money into investments and let it work in the private sector with a government stop loss in case the market crashes. One of the reasons I voted for Bush the first time.

    "Your grand plan isn`t feasible, nor would it ever gain acceptance."

    What grand plan you referring to? The nobody keeps over a billion thing that was completely hypothetical, or that whole list of things I just posted?
  67. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:47 am
    HumanAction

    "These are huge assumptions and should be argued as assumptions rather than facts."

    Yes. They are assumptions. I am ASSUMING that if you directed $4 Trillion at helping the poor that it would help the poor. How silly of me.

    "To address point one, I have yet to see any government redistribution have a net benefit for the poor."

    Check sweden.

    "I do not think it is charity."

    So make charities handle the operations. Just make the government distribute the funds to the charities and lightly oversee that they are being handled properly.
  68. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:54 am
    Want to know what my plan would be?

    #1 A 3 step graduated tax. No tax on anyone below $100,000 combined income, except for FICA. 10% on income between $100,000 and $250,000, 15% on $250,000 to a million, 30% on income over a million. No more tax breaks except for charity.

    Simplify the tax code and you`ll shrink the huge bureaucracy of the IRS, the new 1040 will be one form that anyone, with a brain, can figure out within minutes.

    #2 A national ID card, it will be needed for everything from voting to driving to opening a bank account to cashing your paycheck and getting government benefits. If you`re here illegally then you don`t get one, period.

    #3 Reduce stupid regulations that hinder farmers, ranchers and businessmen. No shrew or woodpecker should get in the way of people making a livelihood.
  69. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:57 am
    "I do not think it is charity."

    I`m sure you are referring to honest charities, not the plethora of scams posing as charities where very little of the money actually goes to the cause they represent.

    Considering all the talk the right does about people they consider lazy trash, do you really think half the population would voluntarily give to charity to help people in need who are committing the "crime" of being poor?
  70. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 8:59 am
    @HolyGod

    [quote">How silly of me.[/quote">
    That`s exactly what I was thinking! Same wavelength or something.

    [quote">I am ASSUMING that if you directed $4 Trillion at helping the poor that it would help the poor.[/quote">
    No... You`re assuming that removing $4 trillion dollars from the economically savvy (See: Producers) and handing it to the economically ignorant (See: Consumers) would result in a long-term net positive. The long-term damage that would be done is not directly comparable to the short-term gains realized. Such transfers are not zero-sum transfers; they are negative-sum.

    [quote">Check sweden.[/quote">
    Sweden is more Capitalistic than the US is.

    Read This
  71. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:00 am
    @holy god

    "I`d like to live in a country where people create, invent, invest, live their dreams, and make millions but are taxed at a rate that allows the less fortunate to have access to food, shelter, education, and the ability to also do the same."

    I you find such a place? let me know. Also i admire the fact that you still have the energy and take the effort to talk to some off the people on this forum as they appear to be pretty much set in stone. But i`d like to offer a suggestion, don`t waste your time with these folk. go out in the real world, get some smiles in return instead of b.s. arguments..
  72. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:05 am
    @lauriloo

    I`m sure you are referring to honest charities, not the plethora of scams posing as charities where very little of the money actually goes to the cause they represent.
    Yes. I would venture a guess that "honest" charities far outnumber the scams, but I could be wrong. Either way, the average cost per benefit of all charities is a fraction of forced redistribution (see link earlier).

    do you really think half the population would voluntarily give to charity
    Give or take. Estimates for total taxation on the average American (Income, FICA, sales, state and federal, excise, property, etc.) go as high as 50%.

    If we lowered it to 25%, would you donate more? I would absolutely donate more. In addition, I would have more capital to invest, which I`ve done wisely so far. Thus, my wealth would compound and I could donate more still.
  73. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:07 am
    #4 Go nuclear. By that I mean thorium reactors, they will be the future. Windmills, solar panels are a waste of money. Electric cars based on Li-ion batteries are a waste too. We have buses running on natural gas and they are clean. converting car engines to burn natural gas would not only lower our oil consumption but lower emissions as well.

    #5 Term limits. Two terms as senator is more than enough, 6 terms as a congressman is more than enough. No more lobbying or campaign donations by groups that get government money, that`s patronage and cronyism and shouldn`t be tolerated.
  74. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:09 am
    @MrOrange

    Also i admire the fact that you still have the energy and take the effort to talk to some off the people on this forum as they appear to be pretty much set in stone.
    What a silly think to say. Just as my opinions are "set in stone", so are yours (and HolyGod`s for that matter).

    don`t waste your time with these folk
    Because openly discussing differing opinions is a waste of time. F.uck anyone who doesn`t see things my way; amirite?

    go out in the real world, get some smiles in return instead of b.s. arguments
    Well you`re jus ta big bundle of joy aren`t you? What a senseless and illogical point you are making: if someone disagrees with you, just ignore it because obviously they`re wrong and you`re right.
  75. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:17 am
    HumanAction

    "and HolyGod`s for that matter"

    I take great offense to that. My opinions change constantly based on available information.
  76. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:18 am
    Crakr

    I wholly agree with almost everything you just said, I fail to see how much different it is then some of the things I just listed.

    "No shrew or woodpecker should get in the way of people making a livelihood."

    I do think we have a duty to preserve natural habitat and species to a reasonable degree.

    "solar panels are a waste of money"

    NOW. It is a developing technology. When computers were the size of a room people said they were a waste of money to develop and nobody would ever be able to use one. One day soon we will have cheap solar panels that are 10x as small and 10x as effective.
  77. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:21 am
    HumanAction

    "Sweden is more Capitalistic than the US is."

    Sweden has an income tax over 48%. That is redistribution by the government. You said you had never heard of that helping people.

    "You`re assuming that removing $4 trillion dollars from the economically savvy (See: Producers) and handing it to the economically ignorant (See: Consumers) would result in a long-term net positive. The long-term damage that would be done is not directly comparable to the short-term gains realized."

    1. You don`t give poor people money you fund the organizations that help them.

    2. What damage?
  78. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:24 am
    @HolyGod

    I take great offense to that. My opinions change constantly based on available information.
    Not my intention. My intention was to mock @MrOrange for making such a closed-minded statement.

    In the context of this thread, neither of our opinions have changed significantly despite reasonable arguments from both sides. Therefore, the extent to which we are both "set in stone" in this particular case is more-or-less identical. As such, I found it absurd to point out how my opinion was "set in stone" with negativity while implying that you and he were somehow superior in that regard.

    Perhaps I should have been more particular with my wording.
  79. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:26 am
    HG: "It is a developing technology. When computers were the size of a room people said they were a waste of money to develop and nobody would ever be able to use one. One day soon we will have cheap solar panels that are 10x as small and 10x as effective."

    That`s not likely within our lifetimes. That technology hasn`t substantially developed in efficiency or size within my lifetime and certainly hasn`t kept up with Moore`s Law like computers have.

    Thorium reactors and natural gas are both abundant, safe and clean using technology we already have. Until the reactors can be built, we should look into coal gassification, it`s proven technology and will bridge the gap while lowering emissions.
  80. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:29 am
    HumanAction

    I listed a whole litany of "fixes" for the country, in my opinion. Out of curiosity, with the exception of raising taxes and universal healthcare, what do you disagree with?
  81. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:39 am
    @HolyGod

    Sweden has an income tax over 48%. That is redistribution by the government. You said you had never heard of that helping people.
    That`s down and falling since the `80s though. They`re headed the complete opposite direction you want to go. In the `70s and `80s, high earners paid a marginal tax rate of 70-85% and the economy suffered horribly. After learning that lesson, they`ve begun reducing tax rates and are seemingly continuously reducing them further. Your proposition is a "double-down" with a marginal rate of 100%.

    What damage?
    Opportunity cost and economic stagnation. Redistribution has a tendency to exacerbate the wealth disparity, which leads to wages falling below "living wages". Also, the opportunity cost is substantial when you take $4t from people who generate wealth and give it to people who do not.
  82. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:40 am
    Crakr

    "That`s not likely within our lifetimes."

    Totally disagree unless you plan on dying in the next 10 years. Maybe it is because I live in Phoenix and hear a lot about solar, but google "newest solar technology" and read up on some of the latest recent breakthroughs.

    "That technology hasn`t substantially developed in efficiency or size within my lifetime and certainly hasn`t kept up with Moore`s Law like computers have."

    Because there hasn`t been government or consumer driven demand like with computers. Do you think we would have laptops today if the government wouldn`t have driven computer development in the 60s and 70s?

    Solar just needs that same push. As soon as people start buying panels then more companies enter the fray and more money goes into R&D.

    Plus solar allows you to be energy independent. With today`s technology I can buy a setup for my roof and never pay for electricity again.
  83. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:42 am
    HG: "Solar just needs that same push."

    They`ve been saying that since Carter was president, It didn`t work then and it`s not working now.
  84. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:46 am
    @HolyGod

    I listed a whole litany of "fixes" for the country, in my opinion
    Oh, sorry, I thought that was for Crakr.

    First, regarding taxes, states should collect from individuals and the federal government should collect from the states. Taxes should only be consumption based but states should have the freedom to choose other methods if they desire. If we were to insist on an income tax, I would want every exemption and credit eliminated and just have a flat-rate. You made x amount this year, then you pay kx amount in taxes.

    Welfare and public works should fall to the states or state conglomerates. Efforts should be made to transition as much as the public workforce to the private sector. For example, a state could offer a business tax exemption for welfare workers, but you would need safeguards (term-limits and welfare/standard employment limits)...
  85. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:52 am
    Crakr

    "They`ve been saying that since Carter was president, It didn`t work then and it`s not working now."

    1. It never got it. Not like computers. If the government was ordering solar panels for the roofs of government building like they ordered computers in the 70s and 80s you would see huge advancements.

    2. Come visit phoenix. Every third or fourth house has solar panels in a lot of areas.
  86. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:53 am
    @HolyGod

    The drug war needs to be stopped. States can wage their own drug-wars if they are that stupid (yes New York, you). It should be treated like alcohol.

    As for universal healthcare, I`m fine with it if the state does it. It would be better than the 3rd party system we have, which is better than the Obamacare nonsense. I`d still prefer a free-market though.

    I`m completely against minimum wages. I believe that result in lower average standards of living.

    No businesses should be subsidized. Also, they shouldn`t be taxed. As you`re aware, it just ends up being a double-tax when employees and owners withdraw (aka get paid).

    Verbatim with you on immigration.

    Congressional terms - I don`t really know how to fix that one.

    I`d prefer the opposite for presidential elections. My experience tells me that the average person is stupid. A popular vote is an "average" vote...

  87. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:03 am
    HumanAction

    "thought that was for Crakr."

    It was.

    "Taxes should only be consumption based"

    1. I don`t see how that is feasible unless you raise it tons.

    2. If it is only based on purchases then it penalizes the poor way more than the rich.

    If I make $12k a year and I buy a pair of $50 work shoes and pay 30% sales tax that really affects me. That is money I desperately need for rent and food.

    If I make $400k a year and buy the same shoes that 30% doesn`t affect me a bit.

    Does that seem fair to you? I guess it the difference between comparing money to money or buying power to buying power.

    "I would want every exemption and credit eliminated"

    Seriously? I`m all for getting rid of lots, but home buyer credits boost the housing market, charity deductions encourages charity, and small business deductions fosters and support entrepreneurship.


  88. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:04 am
    HumanAction

    You really own your own business and would eliminate small business deductions?

    I paid $27k in taxes this year, I would have been totally F.UCKED without business deductions.
  89. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:06 am
    HumanAction

    "My experience tells me that the average person is stupid."

    Without a doubt. However the current system doesn`t really address that. It just leaves the election up to the average stupid people in 3 or 4 states and causes the candidates to ignore the rest.
  90. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:11 am
    It seems a republican got a set of crayons.
  91. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:03 am
    @humanaction.

    Did i mention your name? was there any reason for you to feel you were bieng adressed, if so, why is that my responsibility?

    Your assumption that my opinions are set in stone is that,- your assumption. Just as you assume that I am reffering to you. Myself I swing between the far left and the far right.

    "Because openly discussing differing opinions is a waste of time. F.uck anyone who doesn`t see things my way; amirite?" actually.. i`ve often mentioned that I prefer opposing views on a subject to get the best compromise as personaly i think no man is an island onto himself.

    "Well you`re jus ta big bundle of joy aren`t you"
    Depends on my mood, but i find discussions in the real world tend to be more civil, that people are more willing to concent a point. And a lot more productive. This could of course be my interpretation, however compare a converstation face to face to one on the internet and what do *you* find?
  92. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:16 am
    @HolyGod

    Sorry - had to run out for a bit. Allow me to continue.

    I don`t see how that is feasible unless you raise it tons.
    By significantly reducing spending.

    If it is only based on purchases then it penalizes the poor way more than the rich.
    It doesn`t penalize anyone. The poor spend less than the rich. Therefore, the poor will pay less in taxes; it is implicitly fair in that regard.

    but home buyer credits boost the housing market
    One of the many government interventions that created artificial demand in the housing market. Thus, we got the collapse.

    You really own your own business and would eliminate small business deductions?
    Yes; I paid more than 25% of my income (aka business income) to taxes. Worst of all, I had to pay taxes on stock inventory I purchased this year that may become devalued over time.

  93. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:21 am
    @HolyGod

    charity deductions encourages charity
    ... and creates the so-called "charity-loophole" that oh-so-many liberals (not saying you - just many liberals) complain about.

    small business deductions fosters and support entrepreneurship
    True - I just think everyone should be treated equally.

    However the current system doesn`t really address that.
    For sure; I didn`t offer a "better" idea. I just suggested that a pure democracy scares the hell out of me.

    Haven`t thought this one out yet, but having an alternate vote system among delegates only seems OK...
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:30 am
    @MrOrange

    Did i mention your name?
    Not specifically; however, at the time of your post, the only recent discussions were among HolyGod, Crakr, and myself. Since you specifically mentioned "people of this forum" and "these folk" it means you are referring to at least two.

    Also, you clearly state that you are talking about people other than HolyGod. Therefore, it must be implied that you were referencing both Crakr and myself. Simple deduction.

    compare a converstation face to face to one on the internet and what do *you* find?

    I typically find that, in both cases, there are relatively few people willing to openly and civilly discuss opposing views. However, in both cases, there are significantly more people who try to simply dismiss others without reason - such as your original post did.
  95. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:31 am
    A billion IS arbitrary but it is so high that it would in no way affect the people it targets.
    @HolyGod: So why target "just the Jews" and be done with it? You know you want to...
    Whichever "they" you pick? It`s still theft.
    If I have 100 apples I picked off MY tree? And I sell 50 of them, and eat 20, does the Gov`t have the RIGHT to come and take 30 apples away from me? NO! They`re MY apples! I`ll give them to friends, neighbors or charity if I want to, I do NOT need the Gov`t -arbitrarily- taking my property away.
    NOW before you -whine- about "paying your fair share:
    If the Gov`t taxed ALL apple producers 30% EQUALLY? Then that`s one thing. But to just come and GRAB my apples "because I have so many left over" is quite another.
  96. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:37 am
    I want to adopt parts of socialism, NOT socialism.
    So? @CJ and @HA want to adopt PARTS of capitalism, and you throw a "hissy fit" over it! Oh, YOU can do it but THEY cannot! ic...

    However make legal immigration a process that is easy and quick enough that people don`t NEED to come illegally.
    SO: Just allow 10s of MILLIONS to pour into the USA every year? THAT will "solve the problem"? EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH controls AND RESTRICTS it`s immigration, why should the USA NOT do it?

    You want a job? Done. 0% unemployment
    And just HOW, genius boy, is THAT going to happen? Like the USSR? Mao`s China? Who will pay for all these "free jobs"? The TAXPAYER that`s who! It`s MUCH cheaper to have welfare than 20 million "new government jobs"...
  97. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:44 am
    HumanAction

    "I had to pay taxes on stock inventory I purchased this year that may become devalued over time."

    Did you have a CPA do your taxes or did you do them yourself? I don`t deal in inventory, but I though you didn`t pay the full value of inventory and could depreciate the tax burden and spread it out over time.
  98. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:46 am
    "Is it MORE immoral than a child starving to death?"
    Appeal to emotionalism = FAIL!

    "You use the money to fund groups to build schools, install water and sanitation, distribute food and medicine."
    They already DO THAT! The corrupt governments, Warlords and other thugs STILL take it away and make money. Have a taste of reality bro! If you GIVE poor people food? They STOP buying it from local producers, who go broke and move away! It`s happened 100 times thanks to "UN Help"! And the Warlords steal half of the "free food" so the poor starve anyhow!
    Reality is not pretty.
    Nor is it "fixed" with "good intentions".
    You "solutions" are LAUGHABLY doomed to fail.

    ...you give them what they need to survive.
    Wait, didn`t you say "no handouts"? Forgot about that part already?
  99. Profile photo of puppies04
    puppies04 Male 18-29
    686 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:47 am
    5cats can i please have an apple?
  100. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:47 am
    @Humanaction,
    you like to fill in a lot of the blanks don`t you? and you like to think you matter? that`s quite human of you.

    But as tends to happen when you fill in the blanks, there is a possibility of bieng wrong. Which and i hope your ego can handle it. you are.
    Your deduction errord on the "this forum" which you took to mean this thread. Does that clarify it for you?

    "I typically find that, in both cases, there are relatively few people willing to openly and civilly discuss opposing views. However, in both cases, there are significantly more people who try to simply dismiss others without reason - such as your original post did."

    Really? well either i live in the nicest part of the world or i`m a master persuader in the real world, and well the latter doesn`t fly for me. and i don`t think the first one does either.
    as for the intent of my original post. did you even bother to clarify? or are you the one being dismissive?
  101. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:51 am
    @5cats, the goverment does not have the right to come and take your apple, but you don`t have the right to bitch when someone clubs you over the head to get an apple becuase s/he is hungry, you also don`t get to bitch about the fact that the car ride ro the police station was a pain on the sore head becuase well.. paved roads cost money.. and don`t bitch about no cival cervant bieng there iether, he went home to look after his apple tree. Do you understand what a society means now? i`m not saying it`s perfect. It needs a lot of work, but it beats getting your head beat in...
  102. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:53 am
    @puppies04: I`d gladly give you one! :-)
    But the government took my "extra" apples away! At gunpoint! Now if I don`t keep all I have? My children will starve this winter! Sorry bro, try again next year.
  103. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 11:59 am
    but you don`t have the right to bitch when someone clubs you over the head to get an apple becuase s/he is hungry
    @MrOrange: You DO understand that "an apple" is an analogy for "income", correct?
    And WHY does it matter if they STEAL my apples because they`re hungry, OR because they want to sell them and buy booze? I`M STILL the one with a busted-open skull and no apples to feed MY children...
    Why don`t the "hungry people" ask the government for apples? THEY are the ones with "extra apples" not ME!

    you also don`t get to bitch about... because paved roads cost money...
    WOAH! Talk about "filling in the blanks" bro!
    WHEN did I say I`d NEVER give up my apples? In FACT I said the OPPOSITE of that!
    And if I had "extra apples" I could donate them to get local roads improved. Ever think of that? Smart Donkey?
  104. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    and yet again i wonder why the hell i went and tried to talk to my cat loving fiend...

    really ? i thought you were talking `bout apples? now what did you think i was talking about?

    anyhow i`m off to bed to listen to the neighbours stealing my apples!
  105. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:07 pm
    @HolyGod

    Did you have a CPA do your taxes or did you do them yourself?
    We - meaning my partner - do our own taxes. Every year we debate having a CPA do them but always end up doing them. My involvement is usually just a review when he`s done and filing my K-1.

    That being said, I think it all depends on the way you value and claim your inventory. I believe there is a means to deduct the value of unused sales inventory or unsellable inventory; I would have to ask. My complaint is that this method still requires us to make an interest-free loan to the government in the form of taxation.

    Sure, we get the money back, but we`ve also lost 2% of it`s value due to inflation as well as untold opportunity cost.
  106. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:09 pm
    What a silly think to say. Just as my opinions are "set in stone", so are yours (and HolyGod`s for that matter).
    No no NO! @HumanAction!
    "conservative ideas" are "set in stone" and are too stupid to change.
    "liberal ideas" are 100% correct and NEVER need to change!
    Get I right! I mean: left! ;-)

    Because openly discussing differing opinions is a waste of time.
    Absolutely! Because ANY opinion other than the liberal one is wrong anyhow! Every intelligent person knows that!

    Open discussion = The liberal says his viewpoint, and the conservative silently agrees 100%! Fair! Equal!

    Perhaps I should have been more particular with my wording.
    You named @MO by name, I don`t se what more you could reasonably have done...
  107. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:16 pm
    @HumanAction

    Taxation is no doubt a wholle differnt ballgame over here. but i would look into it as devalution of stock and unsold stock is tax deductable.

    it`s also the reason why come tax inventory time i used to make sure stock was down low. But i`m sure there are better resources in your neck of the wood to get the best tax results..
  108. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:17 pm
    @MrOrange

    you like to fill in a lot of the blanks don`t you? and you like to think you matter? that`s quite human of you.
    First part - yes, especially when there are so many holes to fill; second part - not really, no; third part - thanks?

    Your deduction errord on the "this forum" which you took to mean this thread.
    OK - fair enough. I really doubt this is what you meant but, in the strictest sense, you are correct. So, I`ll begrudgingly admit that I inferred too much from your statement; my apologies.

    well either i live in the nicest part of the world
    Try arguing economics with a liberal on a college campus. Thou shalt know the annoyance of face-to-face dismissal.

    as for the intent of my original post. did you even bother to clarify?
    I have no idea what you are asking for here.
  109. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:36 pm
    Maybe it is because I live in Phoenix and hear a lot about solar,
    Yes, it is because you live in Phoenix, one of the few cities on Earth where solar might someday be feasible.

    If the government was ordering solar panels for the roofs of government building like they ordered computers...
    They ARE doing that! massive tax subsidies and outright HANDOUTS to companies have resulted in... nothing.
    Governments and businesses bought computers because it MADE ECONOMIC SENSE at the time! Not because it would "pay off" 20 years later... maybe!
    The MARKET drove computer demand, not the Government.

    Here in Winnipeg we have Natural Gas for heat and Hydro electricity, would those work in Phoenix? I think not... or (to pick a random place that`s cold) Denmark? Nope.
  110. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:43 pm
    ... and creates the so-called "charity-loophole" that oh-so-many liberals (not saying you - just many liberals) complain about.
    @HumanAction: Exactly! Wasn`t Romney a "tax cheater" for donating so much? Yes he WAS!

    really ? i thought you were talking `bout apples? now what did you think i was talking about?
    It works either way, just choose ONE WAY and stick with it!
    A person doesn`t steal a TV because he`s hungry? What if he sells the TV to buy food? EXACTLY the same as stealing my apples to buy booze.
    Get it? THEFT = theft, the "why" of it does not matter.

    come tax inventory time i used to make sure stock was down low.
    WHAT! You`d hide your apples from the taxman? That`s cheating! Go directly to jail! Do NOT pass "Go"...
  111. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6908 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:49 pm
    HumanAction

    I enjoyed our discussion, thanks. I just got drowned in an avalanche of stupid though, so I`m going to take a break.
  112. Profile photo of MrOrange
    MrOrange Male 30-39
    2402 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 12:52 pm
    Damn, i did type in a rather lenghty reply to Humanaction, but i exceeded the 1000 words and now everything is gone?? and i should be in bed...

    oh well..
    Night night
  113. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 1:25 pm
    @HolyGod: Don`t say mean things about @MrOrange! He tries to make sense... ;-)

    MrOrange: Sweet dreams! Hopefully of ripe, juicy apples!



    Spice & Wolf! (That`s the wolf, on the left...)
  114. Profile photo of jonswan12
    jonswan12 Male 18-29
    72 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    so...democrats are vegan and republicans are meat eaters? This is stupid
  115. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 2:54 pm
    @HolyGod

    I enjoyed our discussion, thanks.
    No worries - always interesting to discuss a different perspective considering my obvious libertarian bias.
  116. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:12 pm
    5Cats buddy, HolyGod is not going to respond to your posts (I assume that`s what he meant by "Avalanche of Stupid"). He said he as much before, after you got him banned for over 2 weeks by complaining to the Mods about his comments. That was just after he got reinstated later the same day when the Mods (me not included) reviewed the thread in question and realised what he said was entirely innocuous.

    This thread, for the Terminally Bored.

    To be fair, I`d probably do the same.

    Sorry HolyGod if I`m telling stories out of school, but you did mention that if you want an intelligent discourse you`d debate with people like HumanAction (to name just one).

    So Kudos to Holy and Human for keeping it civil. Nothing wrong with having opposing views, if the debate is intelligent. Thi
  117. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 7:15 pm
    *Sorry, character cutoff.

    This is what keeps a debate like this intelligent and civil. We can disagree, and agree to disagree. Without slander, malice, or dismissal.

    And hopefully, without any more pictures of Manga f*cking Catgirls. ;-)
  118. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 9:42 pm
    HG: "I just got drowned in an avalanche of stupid.."

    Said by the same guy that`s tried to drown me out and intentionally troll people here.
  119. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:20 pm
    He said he as much before, after...
    Actually @davymid? The CORRECT order of events is:
    I said I was sick of him and would ignore him... unless he was civil.
    THEN! He said "I`m going to ignore you!" Like he was in 2nd grade... whatevers!
    Then he returned to talking to me.
    I continued to ignore him when he was an IDIOT, but talked to him several times when he was polite. BUT since I didn`t comment on that "non talking"? It`s likely unnoticed...
    (HINT: If you SAY I`m ignoring you? You`re NOT really, eh?)

    Then came THAT post; where he "trolled" and got banned, then came back and GLOATED about it...

    MEANWHILE he was "ignoring me" by referring to me specifically (iirc if it was "by name" or not) on several OTHER posts!

    "Don`t say that about (him) (5Cats) or he`ll tell the mods and have you banned!"

    Direct paraphrase...
  120. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:23 pm
    MEANWHILE he has had several "arguments" of EXACTLY the same sort with OTHER IABers... but only -moi- is at fault? Non, non, non!

    It takes TWO to Tango, brother... enjoy your "solo tango"... it`s no skin off my teeth.
  121. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33119 posts
    April 17, 2013 at 10:29 pm
    Back to "light hearted" mode:

    @davymid: PBBT! Those are ANIME CATGIRLS not "manga"! Geez learn the difference!

    OK, some of them are manga... but only the really good mangas!

    AND! And I mix in fox, wolf, rabbit and monstergirls too!

    So there! Er... um... what was I talking about?



    Hey! It`s relevant! "Squirrel Girl" was the subject in a recent POST! Really! Don`t make me link it... *grrr*
  122. Profile photo of yoda141
    yoda141 Male 18-29
    266 posts
    May 27, 2013 at 6:43 am
    Ah the right! same discourse everywhere.
    I want to yell at all USA republicans. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COMMUNISM IS. democrats aren`t communists and if some communist joins the dem party, it`s only because your country has absolutely zero political representation for anything that resembles true left wing politics.

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