$22 Minimum Wage: Could It Pass Congress?

Submitted by: 12chars 4 years ago in Misc

An idea Sen. Elizabeth Warren raised. Obama has suggested raising it from $7.25 to $9. Story in credits link below.
There are 70 comments:
Male 3,631
Ha ha, kind of like the Joker had a different story for his permanent grin. And I have seen real genius - I in fact, adore it. But I just don`t remember that particular line. Shame
0
Reply
Male 7,757
Suicism-" think the girth of the pickles is an Oedipan symbolism"

Actuallly, it just a quote from a very good movie. (Real Genius)

And the thumb is Horst from Ratatouille, who always had a different story:
"I defrauded a major corporation."
"I robbed the second-largest bank in France using only a ball-point pen. "
"I created a hole in the ozone over Avignon. "
"I killed a man... with *this* thumb. "
0
Reply
Male 2,592
Right, so when minimum wage goes to $22.00 an hour, a gallon of milk will now cost $11.00.
0
Reply
Male 15,832
@HG [quote]I`ve successfully run my own business since I was 20 and I`m starting up my third right now.[/quote]
Let`s hope this one actually turns a profit.

I use the term "stupid liberal f***tard" to refer to people whose contribution to society is considerably LESS than zero, i.e., the country and the world would have been a better place had they never been born.

And trust me, you really don`t want to compare your IQ to mine.
0
Reply
Male 3,631
Holy God - "If your business is such that you need 40 more hours a week of labor but you can not afford $360 a week in wages then you are a failure at running a business. "

Demand in of itself is not an indication of failure on the part of the entrepreneur, unless he is selling something nobody wants - and demand is affected by a variety of factors, including those outlined by MeGrendel below.

The influence of demand also sufficiently addresses the first paragraph of your rebuttal.
0
Reply
Male 3,631
I think the girth of the pickles is an Oedipan symbolism.. as for the other symbolism - is that Team Fortress or something? I like asking people things instead of googling them, `cause googling isn`t a verb. Stop underlining googling in red, I know already chrome.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
In my thirties I found myself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at me.

In my forties, I once killed a man with this thumb:
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"The REAL companies out there with a massive majority of minimum wage employees are billion dollar businesses like McDonalds, WalMart,and PizzaHut."

McDonald`s and PizzaHut are FRANCHISES. The owner of each store purchases the franchise from the corporation. The corporation does not pay the owner of the store, nor do they pay the employees. The owner of the store pays the employees, and they are not `billionaires`.

As for WalMart, the average worker at Walmart makes MORE than minimum wage. It`s pretty much a given if you work at Walmart and make only minimum wage it`s because you`re a crappy worker. If you demonstrate that you have a good work ethic and are good at your job, you WILL make more than minimum wage (for that matter, if you had both of those, you wouldn`t be stuck at minimum at any business).
0
Reply
Male 14,334
In my twenties I became ruler of a small tropical island full off sexy asian women by popular vote. They shower me in gold and beg to be my sex slaves. Now for my thirties.....
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"Avon doesn`t count."

You can try to be condescending if you want but I run my own little agency and was billing $200k a year in my 20s. I certainly don`t need your validation.

You guys always want to trot out the example of the hypothetical small business desperately needing to hire more employees while sitting RIGHT on the line where a $1 wage increase will force them out of business.

Get real. The REAL companies out there with a massive majority of minimum wage employees are billion dollar businesses like McDonalds, WalMart,and PizzaHut.

They can afford it JUST fine but they rather keep the money so they get their lobbyists to run propaganda campaigns to get you to think this is all about the little guy.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"I`ve successfully run my own business"

Avon doesn`t count.

HolyGod-"What was your point supposed to be?"

The point was the part you omitted. If the cost of labor increases, the additional employee(s) will not be hired, or existing employee(s) let go, and the remaining workforce will be asked to take up the slack and cut back on off-time.

And that doesn`t even begin to take into account the reduction in business due to higher prices and more unemployed, resulting in less profit and the need for less work force, resulting in more layoffs.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"You`ve obviously never run a business."

I`ve successfully run my own business since I was 20 and I`m starting up my third right now.

"Employers will hire additional employees to accomplish additional tasks, to reduce the workload on the existing employees or the give greater coverage in the event an employee is absent."

All examples of employers needing to hire someone. What was your point supposed to be?
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"No employer in the history of business has ever hired an additional employee unless they needed to."

You`ve obviously never run a business.

Employers will hire additional employees to accomplish additional tasks, to reduce the workload on the existing employees or the give greater coverage in the event an employee is absent.

When they can no longer afford it, the existing employees will be asked to work more and will not be able to take time off as easily, and the business will suffer when they are out.

When they REALLY can`t afford it, existing workforce will be reduces and the remaining will have to take up the slack.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
Suicism

"You`re looking to hire another employee. That would only cost you an additional $8.00 per hour... Let`s raise the minimum wage by $1.00... Except now you can`t afford to hire that first one anymore. "

No employer in the history of business has ever hired an additional employee unless they needed to. If they need to hire another employee then they do whether it costs $8/hr or $9/hr.

If your business is such that you need 40 more hours a week of labor but you can not afford $360 a week in wages then you are a failure at running a business.
0
Reply
Male 579
Why stop at $22? Why not make it $50? or $100? Or more? Isn`t it fun what you can do with other people`s money?
0
Reply
Male 7,757
SPrinkZ-"Absolutely illogical. The burger place needs burger flippers. Thus burger flippers are vital. Burger flippers are people. `People are not vital for the position."

Where your logic fails is equating `people` with `an individual`.

Yes, you need ANY PERSON to flip burgers..that `position` is vital. BUT, when you can pull anyone off the street and they`ll be able to flip burgers no particular INDIVIDUAL is vital to that position.

SPrinkZ-"Minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum liveable wage that can be offered."

Incorrect. Minimum wage has never been defined as a `liveable wage`. It was designed to be.
0
Reply
Male 3,631
Very simple you goddamn idiots (not you, i-a-b`ers) - Say you have 8 employees - and they all make $8.00 an hour. You`re looking to hire another employee. That would only cost you an additional $8.00 per hour.

Then, suddenly, this Warren mensae gets a bright idea - so bright, it`s blindingly naive. Let`s raise the minimum wage by $1.00.

All of the sudden, all those 8 employees are now earning $1 more per hour - collectively, the cost of paying for that new employee you were planning to hire. It`s like having two for the price of one! Except now you can`t afford to hire that first one anymore.

There are only ever 3 possible outcomes of this degenerative scheme: prices go up, hiring diminishes, or businesses go out. The reason it`s degenerative is because that last part is a lot harder to reverse. End of story.
0
Reply
Male 3,631
A lot of good that $22 is gonna do you when you can`t find a job because no one can afford to hire you.
0
Reply
Male 10,855
[quote]Look at any country where the government doesn`t regulate how little employees can be compensated or look at our history before regulations were implemented, that is exactly what happens.[/quote]


Okay in most developing countries sweatshops are actually a LOT better than the alternatives, as for our history we had rising wages long before FLSA was implemented.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
OldOllie

"I guess stupid liberal f***tards"

Do you just have that saved on your clipboard so you can predictably paste it into every thread without having to ever concern yourself with adding anything of value to the conversation?

God I would love to go up against you in any barometer of intelligence you chose, an IQ test, the SAT, Jeopardy, Tic Tac Toe, etc and shut you the f.uck up permanently. Oh well. Continue to be a crotchety old f.uck until you have an aneurism and die.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
Cajun247

"Hasty generalization"

How so? Look at any country where the government doesn`t regulate how little employees can be compensated or look at our history before regulations were implemented, that is exactly what happens.
0
Reply
Male 14,835
Restaurant workers don`t get minimum wage; they get a basic minimum wage plus commission on sales (called "service charge"/ "tips"). Minimum wage should include tips.

Cue Reservoir Dogs quotes.
0
Reply
Male 15,832
I love how people from Massachusetts look down their noses at southerners and then turn around and vote for an idiot like this.

Oh, well, I guess stupid liberal f***tards deserve to be represented by one of their own.
0
Reply
Male 10,855
[quote]Let`s just let corporations decide how much they want to pay people. Then everyone can make 35 cents an hour.[/quote]

Hasty generalization. Both worker and company (and CEO) stand to lose if the worker chooses not to work. If the wage is too little to address the worker`s needs chances are he`s not going to work as the worker`s time invested is an unjustified opportunity cost. I`ll even go as far as to say that if China didn`t ban unionization Chinese workers would be earning 3x more.
0
Reply
Male 2,294
"A burger flipper`s contribution to the business while vital, can be done by anyone, thus the PERSON in that position is not vital. "

Absolutely illogical.

The burger place needs burger flippers.
Thus burger flippers are vital.
Burger flippers are people.
People are not vital for the position.

That makes no sense. They need people to do it, but we tell people all the time to take these sh|t jobs and eat these sh|t wages and then pray you win lottery or something because you`ll get NOWHERE IN LIFE doing that sh|t.

Minimum wage is supposed to be the minimum liveable wage that can be offered. People should be able to at least own a room and pay some bills on it. That`s not too much to ask. Damn. We are living in an era that need cars/phones, etc. to succeed.
0
Reply
Male 2,294
HolyGod sounds like the real God they were talking about.

Poor people are not LAZY PEOPLE. Most poor people just have bad circumstances, or don`t have a shot at life and then we laugh at them? Sickening.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
Dan157300

"Let the market decide what a position will pay"

Sure. Let`s just let corporations decide how much they want to pay people. Then everyone can make 35 cents an hour. I think it would be great if America was just like China or the Philippines.
0
Reply
Male 4
I never understood the arbitrary value the government defines as a "minimum wage." Its currently $7.25 an hour and their goal is to increase it to $10.10 an hour over several years. Why not simply make it $10.10 an hour? Or maybe $100.10 an hour. Or better yet $200.10 an hour. Or better yet $300.10 an hour. Or better yet $400.10 an hour. Or better yet $500.10 an hour. With a little sarcasm, can you see how ridiculously silly this minimum wage argument gets when we start putting a higher arbitrary value on it. Why does the government find it their obligation to force this upon us? Let the market decide what a position will pay and let the individual decide what he is worth.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"So nobody at your company can do what you do?"

No, not to the extent that I know the system and the requirements. I`m in the process of training a back-up, I estimate in 18 months she`ll be able to do half my of what I do.

HolyGod-"So if you die then the company goes out of business?"

No, but they have a problem maintaining the system. We recently added another location to our system for the simple reason they recieved close to $900,000 in fines for inproper labeling and classification of their material doing it the way they were. My system takes care of that.

HolyGod-"I`m an illustrator and graphic artist"

We have that in common. Some illustration, quite a lot of graphic design (it was that experience, along with my chemist background, that landed me my current job).

Never underestimate the importance of a good logo.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"how innovative was it?"

I took a document based systems (document = obsolete information in 24 hours) to a dynamic template based system that allows up to generate real-time accuracy in our labels. So when a material changes, all labels for that product update automatically rather than manually updating dozens (if not hundreds) of individual documents.

HolyGod-"Maintenance is usually something anyone can do with training"

Maintenence in this case does not mean tightening nuts and bolts, but keeping up with changes in material, labeling requirements and all appropriate regulations. Yes, I could train someone to maintain it...all they need to know is the system I developed and the theory, along with spending years learning the appropriate regulations, getting the proper training and certification.

Nuthin to it.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

There are lots of people that perform tasks that most anyone can do. There are burger flippers, garbage men, janitors, etc and they are necessary to our society. 30% of people probably fit into this category. They provide an important function. Is that not worthy of a wage that people can survive on?

I feel like you are advocating for a slave class.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"A burger flipper`s contribution to the business while vital, can be done by anyone, thus the PERSON in that position is not vital."

Exactly what I was getting at.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"You?"

I`m an illustrator and graphic artist. Nobody in the world does exactly what I do. There are other illustrators and designers, but each one is going to be different. Differentiating myself allows me to charge $70, $90, $150/hr.

I get what you are saying about value. I make way more money to do the logo for the burger stand than the guy making the burger, but I still maintain his position is more important to the company. You don`t NEED a logo to have a burger stand but you do NEED someone flipping burgers. The difference is how many people can fill his position versus could fill mine. A couple billion people can flip a burger after 10 minutes of training not a single other person on the planet would have created my logo exactly the same.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"Designed, developed and maintain a system for labeling hazardous chemical products"

I can`t really gauge much based on that. Design takes creativity, how innovative was it? Is it similar to any other system?

Development takes slightly specialization. Could someone else have taken your design and developed it? Probably.

Maintain? Maintenance is usually something anyone can do with training.

So nobody at your company can do what you do? So if you die then the company goes out of business? Come on. They hire someone who is up and running and doing what you do in a week or two. Will they do it the exact same? Maybe not.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-" But it is the most vital position."

The `job` may be vital, but if anyone walking off the street can accomplish it the `position` is not.

A burger flipper`s contribution to the business while vital, can be done by anyone, thus the PERSON in that position is not vital.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-". What do you do that is so specialized and important you deserve more than minimum wage?"

In my current job? Designed, developed and maintain a system for labeling hazardous chemical products for nine manufacturing plants, five distribution centers and countless tollers in three countries meeting all local, state, federal and international regulations shipping to more countries than I can count in 27 different languages.

I am currently working on making this system global to all of our manufacturing plants world-wide, and also having to make sure our system keeps up to date as the UN`s Globally Harmonized System of Classification and Labelling is instituted in various coutries (it`s a pain, quite frankly).

Can anyone else at my company do the same thing? Not really. I have a back-up that can do ~20% of my job. That`s about it.

You?
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"any trained monkey can flip a burger"

Absolutely. Never said the job required skill. But it is the most vital position.

If there is no manager, than it is probably a s.hitty burger stand. However if there is nobody making food there is no burger stand.

Does that mean the burger flipper should make more than the manager? No. The manager possesses a skill set and experience that fewer people have than the burger flipper. THAT is what sets his higher wage.

I was just disagreeing with your assertion that "It is determined by its contribution to the business."
0
Reply
Male 7,757
HolyGod-"then by your rationale the guy making the burgers should make a lot since his contribution is absolutely vital to the business"

Not even remotely true. As any trained monkey can flip a burger.

What`s vital to a burger joint? Building the facility, purchasing the appliances and the food and the dishes and the pots and pans, paying for advertising, bringing in customers and insuring it all. THAT takes investment, risk, sacrifice and hard work.

Did the 15 year old flipping the burger do that? Nope. Flipping the burger is worth less than minimum wage. Any trained animal could do it.

That`s why most peoplel realize in the first week they need to learn something more marketable to make more than minimum wage.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
EgalM, Tim Horton`s raises their prices often without the employees getting any pay raise
0
Reply
Male 4,395
I`m going to pass. No one suggested that the minimum wage get raised to $22. That could be the biggest troll title of the year.
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"Fishing french fries out of hot grease is not productive enough to warrent a livable wage."

That can be said about almost anything. What do you do that is so specialized and important you deserve more than minimum wage?

Most jobs are just a repetition of basic processes that almost anyone can do. So let`s just pay everyone $7 an hour. Right?
0
Reply
Male 8,132
MeGrendel

"A job is not determined by a `livable wage`. It is determined by its contribution to the business."

Not even remotely true.

If you run a burger stand then by your rationale the guy making the burgers should make a lot since his contribution is absolutely vital to the business.

Wages are more determined by the available pool of workers with the skill-set to do the job. It has little to nothing to do with how important that job is.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
Gerry1of1-"try living on minimum wage without starving"

The problem with this argument is that the minimum wage has nothing to do with living wages. It was not designed as a living wage. It was not designed to keep you from starving.

If you`re older than 17 and still working for minimum wage, you probably do not have the skills to actually earn a living wage.

Like richanddead said, if you can survive working one job making minimum wage, work two jobs (or more) making minimum wage.

Currently, between me and my wife, we are working 5 jobs and starting a business at the same time.

Life is hard. Get used to it.
0
Reply
Male 4,075
@Gerry1of1: Sorry, didn`t see how gigantic the graph was, I deleted it, it was just the best illustrated so I picked it. Also I used to work on minimum wage and I didn`t starve, I just had to work 2 jobs. I even bought a used car with it, still have it, a 99 Buick. I have 2 new higher paying jobs now but I still work 7 days a week, and do some lawn work for the neighbors, for extra spending cash, just as I did back then. Its could be really pooty I admit, but if you budget your cash, you can live on it, I assure you.

Secondly, if you make minimum wage your already part of the top 12% on earth.
Raising the minimum wage doesn`t help, yes it forces higher wages, but the amount of jobs that offer them decreases and it causes "dead weight loss." This is why you couldn`t raise minimum wage to a million and everyone be rich.


0
Reply
Male 1,243
Good idea but it would never get passed as it would mean a big shift in the balance of power and the current powers that be wouldn`t have any of that.
0
Reply
Male 38,501

@ mandingo3519 - try living on minimum wage without starving and then say it should not go up. I don`t mean $22... no way. But it is time to increase it. And prices have gone up anyway, that`s why it needs increasing. It`s a balancing act.
0
Reply
Male 38,501

MODS: Please delete that giant ass graph.

Thank you.
0
Reply
Male 2,357
@MeGrendel

[quote]Fishing french fries out of hot grease is not productive enough to warrent a livable wage.[/quote]
Either you didn`t read my entire post or you didn`t understand it.

First, I was making the point that she never stated that she wanted the minimum wage to be raised to $22/hr. Rather, she only implied that it should be raised.

Second, I provided information that demonstrated how deceiving a productivity vs. wage comparison is by showing the CPI and Purchasing Power in the US. In simpler terms, I suggested that the disparity between productivity and wages is reflected in lower costs.

As such, a more accurate and honest comparison would be between profit/employee and wage/employee over time. I would expect anyone who has ever read any of my posts to realize that I am not in favor of adjusting, or even maintaining, a minimum wage.
0
Reply
Male 1,950
Exactly where did she propose that the minimum wage *should* be $22/hr? I must have missed that part of the video...
0
Reply
Male 7,757
The result:

0
Reply
Male 3,442
@egalm i know right!!! i went to get a bagel one day and they were usually two bucks exactly (all i had to do was give the person a toonie and bam, bagel) but now its $2.05. i didnt have a drating nickel. i took 5 pennies out of the take or leave a penny cup.
0
Reply
Male 1,737
I can tell you what happened in Canada as they raised the minimum wages. All the prices went up to match it, so they may as well not even have done it.

Tim Hortons as a small example, raised all prices five cents every time the wage went up ten cents. I may not be the best with math, but I think they took advantage of the situation to make even more profit off it. Considering were talking about every unit that gets sold, and they like most fast food places move a lot units per day.
0
Reply
Male 7,757
Fwoggie2-"Does that mean you`d be able to go to a restaurant, enjoy your meal and pay what`s on the fricking bill"

Yes, the difference is most will not be able to afford the fricking bill.

HolyGod-"implement a livable wage of around $10/hr."

A job is not determined by a `livable wage`. It is determined by its contribution to the business. If what you`re doing is not worth a livable wage, that is your fault, not the jobs.

HumanAction-"the growing disparity between productivity and earnings"

Fishing french fries out of hot grease is not productive enough to warrent a livable wage.
0
Reply
Male 512
HumanAction, stop that! I was enjoying how rapidly the idiots were descending into their own blind stupidity. It`s like watching Lord of the Flies, Reality TV edition after cheap coke was passed around.
0
Reply
Male 2,357
In all fairness, I don`t think the Senator actually ever suggested raising the minimum wage to $22/hr. Rather, I think she was attempting to simply illustrate the growing disparity between productivity and earnings. That being said, she is clearly implying that the minimum wage should be raised.

To answer her question about the "missing" $14.75/hr, a very significant portion was invested in the Consumer Price Index - in which the US continually bests other first world nations. Perhaps more importantly, it is also invested in the Local Purchasing Power Index, which the US has historically performed very well in.

I`m not suggesting that the growing disparity between CEO pay and employee pay isn`t a concern; rather, I`m suggesting that the implication that corporations are whisking away the "lost" income into private pockets isn`t well-founded.
0
Reply
Male 14,334

0
Reply
Male 14,334
[quote]Ahhh, an ad hominem attack from McGovern -- that`s a nice change of pace...[/quote]

I could go after her idea but that would be called common sense. Now more Warren fun!!!

0
Reply
Male 14,334
[quote]Does that mean you`d be able to go to a restaurant, enjoy your meal and pay what`s on the fricking bill[/quote]

No you wouldn`t be able to afford the bill. Leave a tip ya cheap f**k!
0
Reply
Male 8,132
How about leave the minimum wage where it is and implement a livable wage of around $10/hr? Then the minimum wage could be only for part time work for people that can verify they are in school (high school or college).
0
Reply
Male 192
@gerry every time wages go up goods and services go up so you become more broke. CEO and all are not going to lower their profit a single cent
0
Reply
Male 1,803
Does that mean you`d be able to go to a restaurant, enjoy your meal and pay what`s on the fricking bill (unless the waiter/waitress went over and above the standard level of customer service)? You know, like the rest of the developed world outside of N America does it?
0
Reply
Male 2,578
Also, the 22 dollar things is psycho. Raising it to 22 would collapse labor. Most of what I`ve studied about this says the minimum wage above 40% of the average wage does significantly more harm than good. 9 dollars could be ok, although it would put many people out of work.


The biggest issue I have is that she uses this fantastical productivity measure to justify the 22 dollars. Has burger flipping advanced in productivity much since the 60`s? It`s just a flawed concept that minimum wage should keep up with productivity.

But honestly, if I was able to make above minimum wage by the time I was 17, I think anyone can. The whole line of argument of a mom supporting 5 children on a $7.25 is fallacious and fantastical. At worst, work there for 2 months and you`ll get a raise.
0
Reply
Male 38,501

If Senators Warren were paid based on `productivity` {as Sen. Elizabeth Warren based her $22.00 figure on} they would owe us money.

And when the first introduced a minimum-wage, and ever time it`s been increased since, opponents claim it will hurt the economy. It hasn`t yet.
0
Reply
Male 2,468
come on man...re-size the chart.
0
Reply
Male 2,468
In before somebody tries to argue that a burger flipper is worth 44K a year.
0
Reply
Male 2,578
The last time black unemployment was below white was in 1930, the year the minimum wage was introduced.
0
Reply
Male 815
Ahhh, an ad hominem attack from McGovern -- that`s a nice change of pace...
0
Reply
Male 14,334
0
Reply
Male 14,334
ROFL!!! Ya what could go wrong with that!!

Here`s what they call her in MA...
0
Reply
Male 906
Link: $22 Minimum Wage: Could It Pass Congress? [Rate Link] - An idea Sen. Elizabeth Warren raised. Obama has suggested raising it from $7.25 to $9. Story in credits link below.
0
Reply