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Category: Misc
Date: 01/30/13 05:45 PM

114 Responses to Young Man Shot After GPS Error

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 4:45 pm
    Link: Young Man Shot After GPS Error - He wanted to go ice skating, instead he got a bullet in the head. Wouldn`t you ask questions first before shooting?
  2. Profile photo of mcssls
    mcssls Female 70 & Over
    695 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 5:53 pm
    WTF, is it a teen that was shot,a 22 year old, or a 23 year old?
  3. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36647 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 5:56 pm

    1: He`s not a "Teen", he was 23, a grown man.
    2: Maybe they were robbing them, but one got shot so their story changed.
    3: Confused old man tragiclly kills innocent man...this is "Malice Murder" ? Who the hell came up with that charge?
    4: Cubans and ice skating...sounds fishy to me.

    &

    5: Half of what I just typed is pure speculation, just like half the content of that "News" report.
  4. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6712 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 5:59 pm
    Guns for everyone!
  5. Profile photo of CaptKangaroo
    CaptKangaroo Male 50-59
    2343 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:01 pm
    Maybe the old man didn`t have a handydandy interpreter.
  6. Profile photo of Corydoras87
    Corydoras87 Male 18-29
    642 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:02 pm
    clearly there should have been an armed guard at the house to prevent this...
  7. Profile photo of tiedyed
    tiedyed Male 40-49
    324 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:08 pm
    Guess he wanted those damn kids off his lawn.
  8. Profile photo of DuckBoy87
    DuckBoy87 Male 18-29
    3233 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:14 pm
    If everything said was true, then sad...
    This doesn`t change my stance on guns, however, the old man should still be held accountable.
    Most castle doctrines say that the to-be-shot needs to actually break and enter before legally being able to be shot at, and that the shooter may not shoot a fleeing person, e.g. in the back.

    The old man really has no excuse.
  9. Profile photo of SpermNinja81
    SpermNinja81 Male 30-39
    459 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:19 pm
    This is a clear example of why I don`t want a gun in my house. I`ve heard some argue in the last few months, that they would defend their property to death from a home invasion, fine. but how often is something like this the case? regardless of what the Cuban kid`s intent was, if he was driving away at the time he was shot, it is murder. Two lives destroyed. stupid.
  10. Profile photo of ledzeppeloyd
    ledzeppeloyd Male 18-29
    2385 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:33 pm
    `MERICA
  11. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 6:37 pm
    There must be something more to the story. Maybe the kids thought they were ding dong ditching their friend`s house or something. You don`t shoot someone for just pulling up to a house. Either that old man is nuts or those kids were pulling some kind of prank.
  12. Profile photo of skypirate
    skypirate Male 18-29
    2399 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 7:15 pm
    There must be something more to the story

    the old man had a sign saying something about shooting survivors. the foreigners couldnt read it. the old man shot some kids thinking his sign would legally protect him....well, thats my guess anyways
  13. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 8:14 pm
    This could have happened with a completely legal shotgun in Canada, too. Some scared old man who fears every young person sees a threat and blasts away. They take away drivers licenses from incompetent elders, but to do this with guns you`d have to register every type of gun. We tried in Canada and it was a complete flop.
  14. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32763 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 8:23 pm
    The old fellow is clearly in the wrong, unless some amazing circumstances come to light later.

    He was a legal gun owner, never in trouble, so what "gun laws" would have prevented this? NONE!

    All the laws in the world would not have stopped this from happening, except for 100% confiscation, just admit it gun-grabbers!
  15. Profile photo of EgalM
    EgalM Male 30-39
    1707 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 9:13 pm
    If they were trying to leave, doesn`t matter their intentions, they were no longer a threat. Not saying they ever were one, but the old guy thought so. Sucks all around.
  16. Profile photo of Azerphel
    Azerphel Male 18-29
    20 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 9:38 pm
    Yet another example of why more guns is dumb. No gun laws won`t stop this type of thing, but having more guns opens this type of tragedy. The point of gun restrictions isn`t to keep determined people from owning guns. Nothing will ever be able to stop those people. It is to keep irresponsible, stupid people from having easy access to guns. Seriously, who can complain with that logic?
  17. Profile photo of unicyclemstr
    unicyclemstr Male 18-29
    13 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 9:38 pm
    sad situation, but if the guy was actually shot while driving away then they will probably have a case. also, how has no one pointed out gerry saying "cubans and ice skating... sounds fishy to me." ?????? what does them being cuban have to do with some kids wanting to go ice skating?
  18. Profile photo of DinVen
    DinVen Male 30-39
    390 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 9:43 pm
    Good thing that the dismantling of Americans "right" to bear arms has already begun. I hope they keep it up until it is illegal to own any kind of gun like in the civilized world.
  19. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 9:44 pm
    Old man shot too soon even if he believed he was getting attacked, not a responsible gun owner in my book and as the saying goes... if you don`t wield power responsibly, it will destroy you.
  20. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 10:03 pm
    The point of gun restrictions isn`t to keep determined people from owning guns. Nothing will ever be able to stop those people.

    That is the whole point of gun restrictions.
  21. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 10:07 pm
    @DinVen
    Please don`t preach to us.
    Here is your civilized world.
  22. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 10:18 pm
    Seriously, who can complain with that logic?
    Because your logic is reactionary and ignores the cases where guns are used to legitimately protect people. As has been done many times here before, for every story like this, at least 2 can be posted where someone uses a gun to legitimately protect their lives and the lives of their families.

    Don`t get me wrong, this man needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I have even seen one news report that states he fired in the air before shooting the victim as he was driving away. There is just no excuse for his actions if this is true.
  23. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 10:55 pm
    Everyone, Let`s Ban GPS Now!

    Yes, I`m being sarcastic.
  24. Profile photo of LandoGriffin
    LandoGriffin Male 30-39
    3844 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 11:14 pm
    This man is a murderer. It is not self-defense to shoot in defense of property (ie, if you are being robbed.) It is only self-defense if you shoot in defense of your person (ie, you are being physically threatened.) PS - obviously this guy is a complete racist because the kids spoke Spanish he thought they were criminals.

    Fact: If you break into my house, you are not armed, and I shoot you, then I am a murderer.
  25. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7738 posts
    January 30, 2013 at 11:49 pm
    It`s ok, he`s American, nothing to see here.
  26. Profile photo of Cartunze
    Cartunze Male 60-69
    841 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 12:41 am
    A gun owner`s wet dream - a chance to murder someone. Oh, they never came into the house and tried to rob you? They are still on the property! Close enough!
  27. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2157 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 12:51 am
    This old man was stupid.. If I understand the case correctly he at no point was in his rights to shoot. They never entered the house, his life wasn`t in imminent danger and they were fleeing.

    Just a really bad example of a gun owner that made a stupid avoidable mistake.
  28. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2157 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 12:56 am
    @cartunze - "A gun owner`s wet dream - a chance to murder someone."

    really? I hope you`re being sarcastic. If you`re not, then you`re just being an ignorant asshat.
    I hate to break it to you, but the vast vast majority of gun owners don`t want to fire their gun in defense, and most never would. There are those few that will to protect and then there`s this guy who probably wanted to shoot at someone. If that`s the case then he probably has more issues than we know about.
  29. Profile photo of Cartunze
    Cartunze Male 60-69
    841 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 1:53 am
    No, I wasn`t being sarcastic or trolling. I tried trolling last month about being against gay rights and that wasn`t as fun as I thought it would be. I am a liberal and in line with most liberal thinking.

    Guns aren`t really needed for self defense. I know a lot of gun owners and I know from talking to them about this subject that they secretly want to be in a situation where they can defend their safety or property and shoot someone legally. And I can also tell you from experience that shooting someone is more of a traumatic experience than you might think. These people I know tell me that they would not feel bad at all shooting an intruder who was in their house illegally. Well, when things are all said and done and the situation is over, a sane person will eventually come to the conclusion that no one really had to die. It was just the little fantasy in the back of your head that made it seem like that was the thing to do at the time.
  30. Profile photo of securitywyrm
    securitywyrm Male 18-29
    89 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 2:02 am
    Those people who say "Those gun owners are just itching for a chance to kill someone" are the people who really want to kill someone. They`re projecting their insecurities and dark desires upon those with the capacity to carry it out.
  31. Profile photo of ruthless1990
    ruthless1990 Female 18-29
    3001 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 2:08 am
    America get your sh*t together.
  32. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2157 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 3:10 am
    " a sane person will eventually come to the conclusion that no one really had to die. It was just the little fantasy in the back of your head that made it seem like that was the thing to do at the time."

    so what you`re saying is if someone breaks in my house with a gun, a knife, a crowbar, a (pick your implement) with every intent of doing harm to me or my family that I should just lie down and let it happen?
    "Guns aren`t really needed for self defense."
    What do you propose one should use then? 911 and wait for law enforcement?
    Tried that, took the cops to long to get to my house. A Bat? Doesn`t do well if the attacker is using a ranged weapon. I got it, wishful thinking and positive happy thoughts. "I will not get mugged, I will not get mugged"
  33. Profile photo of Tekinette
    Tekinette Male 30-39
    273 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 3:18 am
    Guns don`t kill, people do. And people make stupid decisions everyday, so stop giving them guns.

    It`s harder to get a driver`s license than a gun`s one in most of the US, explain to me the great logic behind that.
  34. Profile photo of uunxx
    uunxx Male 30-39
    120 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 4:15 am
    @ForSquirel in my gunless country it`s rare for burglars to have guns, also it`s rare for bulglars to break into house in presence of occupants. They would usually rob you when you`re with your family on vacations. Choosing lesser evil I preffer it this way.
  35. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7738 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 4:42 am
    Just who should we fear in America?
  36. Profile photo of Canoas
    Canoas Male 18-29
    427 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 4:57 am
    @forsquirrel
    so you`re saying that whatever he was stealing is worth more than that person`s life?

    The way USA allows everyone to use guns is moronic. If you want guns for protection then a handgun with rubber bullets is more than enough.
  37. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 5:59 am
    Quick everyone hand over your guns because of the poor actions of one man!! You beter get in line or the Europeans and leftists will whine more than ever if that`s possible.
  38. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:00 am
    .22 cal pistol used. BETER BAN DOEZ ASSUALTZ PIZTOLZ!!!
  39. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:17 am

  40. Profile photo of aroc91
    aroc91 Male 18-29
    182 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:33 am
    @Canoas

    Documented cases of people being shot multiple times and shrugging it off destroy your argument. Rubber bullets would just piss them off. Same goes with tasers. With enough drugs or the right type of drugs, pain isn`t an issue.
  41. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:48 am
    @5cats: This is what happens in a culture that is told to fear everything. You seem to be of the opinion that gun control laws should be able to stop all gun murder or accidents involving guns; this is a ridiculous position.
  42. Profile photo of ForSquirel
    ForSquirel Male 30-39
    2157 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:17 am
    @canoas - If I`m home when someone`s breaking in my home I can rightfully assume they will do harm, and I`m not talking mortal wounding, any bodily harm. News flash. Criminals don`t want to get caught and may go to lengths to hide evidence. I`m sorry if my family is more important than some thug low life breaking into my house at 2am.

    @uunxx - rare doesn`t mean it won`t happen just makes the probability and percentage lower. It`s rare that a house in my neighborhood would get broken into, but guess what?
  43. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32763 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:30 am
    @cartoonz: Yeah, you`ve repeated that mantra several times now. If it were true, why do nearly 100 million -legal- gun owners only account for a small % of gun violence? Because it`s -criminals- with ILLEGAL GUNS who are doing the killing. Makeing them "more illegal" won`t solve anything.

    @patchy: It`s the gun-grabbers who`re promising to "prevent another tragedy" and to "protect the children" with MOAR LAWS, not the 2-A people. THEY claim a bunch of laws will stop violence, not us!

    "Living in fear" is part of the modern world. It`s the same all over. Another law won`t change that either...
  44. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:42 am
    ruthless1990: We`ve seen Europe`s violent crime rate.



    USA is way down the list at #43, Perhaps it`s you Europeans that should `get your sh|t together`.
  45. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:47 am
    6 people were shot in Chicago last night. I`ll let you put together the pieces why the left media makes no mention of it....
  46. Profile photo of normalfreak2
    normalfreak2 Male 18-29
    3868 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:59 am
    Meh, this is just more proof of why MOST people don`t deserve guns, even Vietnam veterans. This guy was UNABLE to make a clear decision, instead reacted out of fear. With guns there are no reset buttons. I`m not for disarming everyone but we really need to curb how easily it is to attain and maintain guns. It should be like a driver`s licence sadly. Have to go in every couple years to get tested make sure you are still capable and deserving of a gun
  47. Profile photo of Mikeoxsbiggg
    Mikeoxsbiggg Male 30-39
    1502 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:01 am
    Typical gun nut. Lots more of this comming in the future.
    Try not having BILLIONS of guns.
  48. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:02 am
    @Crakr: FFS you keep trolling out that image when it`s been proven to be false and misleading. Stop perpetuating your "data" that is devoid of any reputable methodology.
  49. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:31 am
    Stop perpetuating your "data" that is devoid of any reputable methodology

    LOL!! Ya unless it supports gun control then skew away!!
  50. Profile photo of slut_etta
    slut_etta Female 50-59
    3849 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:37 am
    why didn`t he just call 911? i have a gun, have lately been threatened at home and at my place of business, but until somebody gets past the dogs at home or the set of locked doors at work, i`ll content myself to call the cops. now, after they get past the dogs or the double set of locked doors, unfortunately FOR ALL CONCERNED, not just them, they`re asses are mine. i`m not at all proud of my attitude, its just how things stand in my life right now.
  51. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3889 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:37 am
    Many people on here have shown through government links how the UK adds more crimes to their statistics than America does. You clearly are trolling CrakrJak.
  52. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:39 am
    @McGovern: To my knowledge I haven`t skewed any data, but comparing violent crime between countries with very different classifications of what constitutes violent crime is not skewing, it`s simply disingenuous and misleading representation. I`m sure some people have presented misleading "facts" on the pro-gun control side as well, but it doesn`t make that image any less deplorable.
  53. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 8:44 am
    @patchgrabber

    I didn`t say you were. What I`m saying is the control side is just as guilty of that if not more. The supporters just refuse to see it.
  54. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 9:01 am
    Here`s the "experts" solution to everything...


    I`m waiting for the day the UK mandate all citizens must live in gigantic hampster balls for their own "saftey."
  55. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3336 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 9:18 am
    he a soldier so that make him a hero. so its okay for him to kill
  56. Profile photo of talon0325
    talon0325 Male 40-49
    382 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 9:31 am
    !Merica. Shoot first, maintain self defence strategy and wait for sympathy.
  57. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 9:43 am
    @McGovern

    Wait, wait, wait... You mean to tell me that the laws of the 1920`s which mandated citizens obtain local police permission to possess firearms (register and license advocates), later laws outlawing semiautomatic rifles (assault rifle ban advocates), laws restricting magazine capacity (high-capacity magazine restriction advocates), and the 1998 confiscation of pistols worked so well that there is now a stabbing problem???

    Dang... if only someone could have seen that coming. But hey, it`ll totally be, like, seriously different and stuff here. Cause like, Obama and sh*t.
  58. Profile photo of MrPeabody
    MrPeabody Male 30-39
    1920 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 10:10 am
    Why didn`t we ever hear about Humptulips?
  59. Profile photo of thefatviking
    thefatviking Male 18-29
    202 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 10:30 am
    Old senile war vet with PTSD gets scared an ends up killing a kid with a target pistol.

    Yeah, it`s obviously tragic for the people that knew the kid, but I can`t see how this is a national story.
  60. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3336 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 11:36 am
    @Gerry1of1
    "4: Cubans and ice skating...sounds fishy to me. "

    thats so wrong and funny
  61. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36647 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 11:39 am

    65 year old guy never had an incident, the suddenly this. What`s more likely? They were there to rob the place or they wanted to go skating?


    Let`s see. A car load of illegal Cubans {that`s why they wouldn`t show their faces} is going skating. Uh huh. Statistically, I`d say it is more likely that they were actually there to rob the place, but have worked a deal to testify for the District Attorney in exchange for residence status.
  62. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 11:57 am
    His neighbors house was recently robbed I wonder if there`s more to this story than we`re being told.
  63. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 11:59 am

    This is life people. Sh*t happens, mistakes are made, and people die every day. Do you believe the government will protect you with more laws? Does any really believe that this world will be paradise when everyone disarms and gives more control to the government?
    Some see a story like this and think the problem would be solved by taking away weapons. Others see a story like this and are reminded that no one else will protect them from crazy bastards. Both have valid opinions, but one doesn`t strip anyone of their rights.
  64. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3889 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 1:16 pm
    That`ll learn him for being Cuban.
  65. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 1:26 pm
    Handful of articles from respectable institutions making it clear which side of this argument is in the right:

    Forbes

    Harvard School of Public Health

    BloombergBusinessweek

    John Hopkins Centre for Gun Policy and Research

    No doubt the gun-
  66. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 2:01 pm
    Oh ya those are completely no biased instutions....ROFL!!!

  67. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 2:39 pm
    As I tried to say in my last post:

    No doubt the gun-apologists will completely ignore the fact that I`ve posted some actual figures rather than just insults and vague "sounds like it could be right but no actual support" arguments, but as a wiser man than me said...


  68. Profile photo of dognose82
    dognose82 Male 18-29
    153 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 3:57 pm
    Check his immigration status. If he was illegal, then it is a federal crime. Depending on the state it could be a felony. Again, if they were in the act of committing a felony (being here illegally) then it is a justifiable homicide. Not saying it`s right, but I can see a twisted court case coming.
  69. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 5:11 pm
    patchgrabber: That graphic I posted is compiled data from the European Commission and United Nations. Neither would be considered `conservative` sources.

    I`m sorry if the facts and statistics get in the way of your liberal anti-gun rhetoric, but that`s reality.
  70. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32763 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:15 pm
    I wasn`t concerned about them "going skating" but I wondered why they couldn`t find "their friend`s house" even with a GPS...
    THAT make me go "hummm..."

    As for the ".22 pistol" it may have been a .257 which actually packs a whallop! Or just a (un)lucky shot.

    It looks like the old guy was in the wrong, but it wouldn`t shock me if "furter details" tell us otherwise.
    Of course the MSM would NEVER cover THAT...
  71. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 6:55 pm
    Gun people are not in the top ten percent I.Q. groups.
  72. Profile photo of Xprez
    Xprez Male 30-39
    676 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:10 pm
    Right..... Something doesn`t make sense. I`m sure they were lost and were just the nicest people. They sound legal too.........not.
  73. Profile photo of Xprez
    Xprez Male 30-39
    676 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 7:11 pm
    I agree with Gerry1of1.
  74. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36647 posts
    January 31, 2013 at 9:22 pm

    All I know is there ain`t no bobsleds in Havana.

    I`m siding with the old guy.
  75. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 6:34 am
    I`m sorry if the facts and statistics get in the way of your liberal anti-gun rhetoric, but that`s reality.
    Wow, where to start? First, the "data" says conservatives where it says source, but that wasn`t the point I was making. Second, it was compiled by a newspaper that was trying to make the current UK government look bad. Third, and this is the real point, I don`t care where the data are from, because it`s the METHODOLOGY that`s wrong. You`d apparently like to live in a dream world where you can compare completely different things and say they`re equal. It`s like looking at two people`s criminal records and only counting a few crimes for one person, and counting more crimes for another, and concluding that the latter person has committed more offences. Stop being stubborn, that chart is meaningless. If you think I`m wrong ask one of your conservative buddies to back you up.
  76. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 6:56 am
    But since you like charts so much...


    Comparison of aggravated assault and robbery.


    Comparison of murder. Since these are the only violent crimes that can be compared, it would seem yours is much more violent.
  77. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 6:58 am
    And here are the crimes that the U.S. and Canada consider to be violent crime. Even so much as pointing a gun at someone here is violent crime, so stop clinging to data because it supports your distorted world view and get yourself a reality check.
  78. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 8:13 am
    If anyone has the time, here is a lovely read from a Harvard study that supports my previous claims that violent crime (including murder) rates are widely independent of firearm availability and market saturation. Additionally, this article provides further evidence for my claim that murder rates are primarily determined by socioeconomic and cultural factors.

    Harvard Law Study

    To quote: "Whether causative or not, the consistent international pattern is that more guns equal less murder and other violent crime."
  79. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 10:08 am
    Yes unfortunately HumanAction, that`s a widely debunked study that was published falsely under the Harvard name by right-wingers who in fact have no connection with Harvard.

    Below is a link to the *actual* Harvard where you will find a load of articles contradicting and debunking the conclusions of Kates and Mauser.

    Harvard School of Public Health
  80. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 11:31 am
    @technophebe

    It`s on the Harvard Law server - check the domain. I have to assume that this means that it is being sponsored by Harvard, since it`s like, totally on their website and sh*t.

    Seriously, you will need to try harder than "it`s so totally debunked."
  81. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 11:51 am
    @technophebe

    After doing some searching, it seems that I have found one claim that attempts to refute this article. Additionally, the article appears to have been written to be included in a Harvard paper rather than an article sponsered by Harvard.

    However, there are plenty of scholarly articles suggesting that either side is correct. Rather amusingly, they all claim to know better than the "other guys."

    For instance, to further our bodies of evidence, I submit: Confirming More Guns, Less Crime. Eventually, this will boil down to whether or not it is appropriate to use econometrics to investigate the relationship between firearms and crime. From my research, if you allow the use of econometrics, then the conclusion is that firearm rates inversely correlate with crime.
  82. Profile photo of kvetcher
    kvetcher Male 50-59
    213 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 12:27 pm
    @CrakrJak Those figures from Warner are over four years out of date. Alan Johnson, mentioned in the source article became UK Home secretary in June 2009.
    The latest England and Wales crime stats actually show a fall to the lowest recorded levels.
  83. Profile photo of Danaxu
    Danaxu Male 18-29
    10 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 12:39 pm

  84. Profile photo of kvetcher
    kvetcher Male 50-59
    213 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 12:44 pm
    And why has a 1999 article in the (UK) Daily Mail on violent crime in the UK shot up to third in Google`s searches for "Violent crime stats UK"? When the real figures are so low?
  85. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    @HA: The paper you included wasn`t a Harvard study, but was published in a student journal run by conservatives and libertarians, and none of their submissions are peer-reviewed, and there isn`t a standard list of editors that would guarantee the legitimacy of the journal. That and I`m pretty sure the murder rate in Luxembourg is overstated by an order of magnitude. So that paper doesn`t really have any credence to it.
  86. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 12:58 pm
    Oh was my link to the *actual* Harvard university website where they completely disagree with you not enough to debunk your paper by people fraudulently trying to appear to be publishing under Harvard?

    Sorry I didn`t realize your standards were so high. I`ll try and find some sources other than one of the most highly reknowned universities in the world to contradict your obscure "Harvard" paper.
  87. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:00 pm
    @patch

    The paper you included wasn`t a Harvard study, but was published in a student journal run by conservatives and libertarians, and none of their submissions are peer-reviewed
    I know... I agreed that I was incorrect originally when I later (11:51:55) stated the following:

    Additionally, the article appears to have been written to be included in a Harvard paper rather than an article sponsered by Harvard.
    I had also stated that it appears to have been refuted and then also included another article (yes, John Lott was part of it - and yes, I`m sure Donahue has found something he thinks is wrong with it).
  88. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    @technophebe

    [quote">Oh was my link to the *actual* Harvard university website where they completely disagree with you not enough to debunk your paper by people fraudulently trying to appear to be publishing under Harvard?[/quote">
    Read what I wrote to @patchgrabber. You guys seriously didn`t see that I rescinded that claim? All you have to do is read; it`s simple.

    [quote">Sorry I didn`t realize your standards were so high.[/quote">
    Well now you know.

    [quote">I`ll try and find some sources other than one of the most highly reknowned universities in the world to contradict your obscure "Harvard" paper[/quote">
    Great! I`ve also included one from Stanford (I think); there are plenty more though. Here`s one from a Vanderbilt professor: Will Rationing Guns Reduce Crime?
  89. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:26 pm
    Here`s the problem with these Harvard "experts" it`s a group of know it alls that in reality lack common sense. A common occurance with those that have swollen heads and egos. Example if the "experts" had their way in the UK you wouldn`t be able to own a kitchen knife because you commoners can`t be trusted with anything.
  90. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:34 pm
    @HA: Oh, I hadn`t seen the retraction. I was, well, working (my current employer does not recognize commenting on I-A-B as legitimate employment ;-) )
  91. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:36 pm
    Lol HumanAction did you even bother to read this page before you posted that link?

    a) This paper is over a decade old.

    b) The author hasn`t even bothered to write a proper abstract for it. In place of an abstract are a series of statements starting with "I believe".

    c) In the 13 years since its publishing it`s been cited a massive two times. Both papers were written by one author.

    Seriously man, *spectacular* fail. Going looking for titles that seem close enough to your point of view doesn`t quite comprise thorough research :)

    And yes McGovern, of course *you* know better than Harvard, that makes perfect sense. See my previous post about pidgeons and chess.
  92. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:38 pm
    I just re-read my last comment and that last part may have come across as snide, which wasn`t my intention. I was only attempting to be funny, if only attempting.
  93. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:42 pm
    @technophebe

    It appears you do not know much about the long-standing gun-control debate. That article was written by John Lott in what I assume was a response to criticisms from John Donahue over Lott`s original release of "More Guns, Less Crime." Lott`s study and research tends to be an oft-cited authority on the subject, and Donahue tends to be his biggest and most vocal critic.

    If simple date of pulishing or number of citations is what you seek, then here: More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws, Third Edition.

    This edition was released in 2010 and likely has been cited many thousands of times. Do you know anything about this subject at all?
  94. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:45 pm
    @patch

    No worries; I jumped all over that article without any sort of research; Call it a "duh" moment - hehe.
  95. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:47 pm
    @HumanAction

    Do you know anything about this subject at all?

    No, he just thinks he knows all like the "experts" in his studies.
  96. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:48 pm
    @technophebe

    How many of those "experts" own guns? I own five want to take a bet who knows more about guns?
  97. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:55 pm
    Ah yes, I can see that John Lott has written several pop-sociology books on gun control. However if we have a look at his *peer reviewed* work, we see his two most cited papers (with a massive 55 and 27 citations, not bad) are:

    "How Dramatically Did Women`s Suffrage Change the Size and Scope of Government?"

    "The Reputational Penalties for Environmental Violations: Empirical Evidence"

    And a couple of other interesting titbits:

    In 2004, the National Academy of Sciences conducted a review of current research and data on firearms and violent crime, including Lott`s work, and found "no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases or increases violent crime."

    Oh, and he was a weekly columnist for Fox News.

    Yes, clearly Mr Lott is an academic of unimpeachable standing.
  98. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:55 pm
    "Those who abjure violence can only do so because others commit violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
  99. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 1:58 pm
    @technophebe

    So what you`re saying is research can be biased.... All except what you cite ROFL!!
  100. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:02 pm
    Oh this is actually f*cking awesome, I am wetting myself with laughter here:

    John Lott Wikipedia Page

    Read down to the controversy section and see some of the shenanigans this guy has been up to, brilliant.

    HumanAction you are an absolute tool. Even the guys who site the papers you link are fail. You are everything that makes pro-gun fanatics so amusing to argue with. ^^
  101. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:03 pm
    @technophebe

    I understand your desire to dismiss my evidence rather than refute it; however, there are just as many proponents of John Lotts works as there are opponents. It`s lovely to throw out the old "Fox News" line and all, but it does not discredit the book nor its findings.

    Your best bet would be to read some of John Donahue`s criticisms and to reiterate them here - since, apparently, you are incapable of forming your own thoughts.

    If you still cannot understand where you`ve erred logically, consider that you are attempting to discredit the author rather than the article.
  102. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:05 pm
    @McGovern

    So what you`re saying is research can be biased.... All except what you cite ROFL!!
    Not quite; he is suggested that all other research is simply inadmissable! Lol... Europeans - what can I say?
  103. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:10 pm
    @technophebe

    Oh this is actually f*cking awesome, I am wetting myself with laughter here
    I can`t take you seriously if you can`t even control your bladder. Someone should rub your nose in it.

    Read down to the controversy section and see some of the shenanigans this guy has been up to, brilliant
    There is nothing, to date, that has been proven that affects the legitimacy of the research. Most criticisms revolve around the man, not the research.

    HumanAction you are an absolute tool.
    That`s very kind of you to say.

    You are everything that makes pro-gun fanatics so amusing to argue with.
    I also enjoy showing you the error of your ways. I am rather happy that we have reached this amicable consensus; for a moment, I was concerned you were becoming upset.

  104. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:14 pm
    Ooh, it`s the long words treatment now is it? I`ve "erred logically" have I? ^^

    Do you think that using pompous language covers up the fact that all your citations are rubbish and that you just grab at names you`ve seen on the telly and assume they`re right?

    No, no it doesn`t. Sorry man.
  105. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 2:20 pm
    @technophebe

    Ooh, it`s the long words treatment now is it?
    Unfortunately, I was expecting you to catch on much sooner than you did. I have since learned not to overestimate you.

    I`ve "erred logically" have I?
    Yes... See below.

    Do you think that using pompous language covers up the fact that all your citations are rubbish and that you just grab at names you`ve seen on the telly and assume they`re right?
    So you consider my language to be "irritatingly grand?" Well, I am flattered. By this point, I expect most of the IAB regulars are familiar with my use of the English language. As I;ve alluded to above, the citiations are only "rubbish" in your mind. In the real world, however, there have been no definitive refutations.

    Additionally, I know of John Lott because the book was recommended to me. I don`t know of him being on T.V.
  106. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32763 posts
    February 1, 2013 at 6:36 pm
    The Score:

    @HumanAction = 5
    @technophebe = 0

    The "5 smackdown mercy rule" is now in effect!!! :-)
  107. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 3:07 am
    Yes, that`s very clever 5cats. Let`s recap what`s happened in this thread:

    - I cited 4 sources, from places such as Harvard and Forbes. *No-one has even attempted to rebut any of those sources*

    - HumanAction has cited 2. The first he then climbed down and admitted he hadn`t even bothered to check after it was pointed out that it`s non-peer reviewed and fraudulently attempts to associate itself with Harvard. The second is a pop-sociology book (not a real academic study) whose figures and methods in which are *widely* disputed and which HAVE NOT BEEN REPRODUCED by any of his peers. This is a man who makes up fake personas to support himself online, whose *academic* papers on firearms are barely cited, whose professorship is financed in association with one of the largest gun companies in America, who basically is a man with *zero* credibility.

    So please, once again, refer to my previous post on pidgeons and chess. Losers.
  108. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 8:37 am
    @technophebe

    Ohhh... so it`s quantity you were looking for? You should have just said that at the beginning and we could have saved ourselves some time.

    Journal of the American Medical Association
    "...implementation of the Brady Act appears to have been associated with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older but not with reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."

    Florida International University
    "A supplemental analysis also indicates no evidence of simultaneity between gun availability and violent crime."

    Bear with me; unlike you, I actually provide a quick, quoted summary of the article so I have less space.
  109. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 8:42 am
    Firearms and Crime (UK)
    "THE OBVIOUS IMPLICATION IS THAT THE WEAPON CHOSEN IS NO MORE THAN A MIRROR OF PATTERNS OF CULTURAL ACTIVITY IN THE PARTICULAR SOCIETY."

    Independent Institute of Oakland
    "Further, increasing gun control is more likely to keep law-abiding citizens from having guns than to reduce significantly their possession by criminals."

    Harvard School of Public Heath
    "The profound effects of income inequality and social capital, when controlling for other factors such as poverty and f
  110. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 8:44 am
    The missing quote from the last link:

    "The profound effects of income inequality and social capital, when controlling for other factors such as poverty and firearm availability, on firearm violent crime indicate that policies that address these broader, macro-social forces warrant serious consideration."

    I believe that gives me five sources that agree with me: socioeconomic and cultural factors are responsible for violent crime independently of firearm availability.
  111. Profile photo of technophebe
    technophebe Male 30-39
    25 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 10:08 am
    Well done, you have indeed managed to find *one* paper which supports your viewpoint (I`m not counting the UK one because it`s *40* years old ffs). But... you still haven`t even attempted to rebut any of my sources.

    The fact that you think you`re putting forward a convincing argument has gone past being funny into actually making me feel a bit sorry for you. It`s nice that you`re passionate about your beliefs, but you have totally failed to put forward a case for well, anything.

    I`m sorry that the bad man makes you feel sad when he talks about taking away your guns, but you have successfully won this argument by merit of making yourself seem so thick that there`s not even any fun in taunting you any more.

    Congratulations. Go `Murica.
  112. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 10:43 am
    Well done, you have indeed managed to find *one* paper which supports your viewpoint
    Five > one... Not sure what you missed.

    I`m not counting the UK one because it`s *40* years old ffs
    Well shucks, I hadn`t realized that neither statistics nor guns were around 40 years ago. How silly of me.

    But... you still haven`t even attempted to rebut any of my sources.
    I`ve presented 5, well 6 if you count Lott, articles that back my stance and contradict yours. See: How to Form a Rebuttal.

    actually making me feel a bit sorry for you
    Aww =). You Euros sure are a mindful bunch.

    but you have totally failed to put forward a case for well, anything.
    See above.

    but you have successfully won this argument
    Winner, winner! I accept you admission of defeat. Let me guess, French?
  113. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 10:49 am
    there`s not even any fun in taunting you any more
    Is that what you were doing? Dang, I missed it. I read back quite a bit and still don`t see it. Maybe if you try again it`ll be better this time? I could give you some pointers if you`d like - I`m here to help Francois. Is it OK if I call you Francois?

    Congratulations. Go `Murica.
    Thank you! In the past, many Europeans have simply stormed off in a fit of rage. However, I see that you are much more experienced. You`re so familiar with America winning that you`ve come to not only accept it, but you even congratulate us! Surely this proves the Theory of Evolution!

    Francois, I feel like this is truely the beginning of a great friendship. I look forward to your next outburst.
  114. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    February 2, 2013 at 3:08 pm
    KNOCKOUT!!! DING DING DING!!


    Guy in the clips a brit too and deserved the ground pound :-)

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