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Date: 01/16/13 10:40 AM

172 Responses to What`s In President Obamas Gun Control Package?

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18946 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 10:38 am
    Link: What`s In President Obamas Gun Control Package? - Obama announced a $500 million package from suggestions put forth by VP Joe Biden`s task force on gun control. Read up!
  2. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 10:56 am
    Banning military-style assault weapons

    Very vauge most gun designs come from a military background.

    10 round mag cap

    Won`t do a thing.
  3. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 10:57 am
    Oh good. I feel safer. There will be no more school shootings after these laws are set in place, because criminals wont do anything illegal.
  4. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 10:58 am
    Will items before this repeat of 1994 be grandfathered? Does this overide NYs ridiculous laws of 7 rounds?
  5. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:00 am
    Requiring criminal background checks on all gun sales, including private sales
    Banning "military-style" assault weapons
    Limiting ammunition magazines to 10 rounds
    Strengthening penalties for gun trafficking

    Seems reasonable to me. Let the debate begin.
  6. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:00 am
    "Oh good. I feel safer. There will be no more school shootings after these laws are set in place, because criminals wont do anything illegal."

    Why don`t you move somewhere that has no laws at all, if they are so pointless?
  7. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:02 am
    HalfPintRoo

    "because criminals wont do anything illegal"

    EXCELLENT POINT. That is what I keep saying.

    Why is rape and murder illegal? I mean criminals do it anyway right? Right? RIGHT?
  8. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:04 am
    @FoolsPrussia- my point is, these laws aren`t going to change the bad things, it`s just going to hurt those who do follow laws.
  9. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:04 am
    McGovern1981

    "Won`t do a thing."

    Can you say with certainty that there would not have been as much damage if the Aurora shooter was only able to get 10 round magazines instead of the 100 round he used? He purchased all the magazines legally.
  10. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:06 am
    "my point is, these laws aren`t going to change the bad things, it`s just going to hurt those who do follow laws."

    This is a vague statement that you need to explain. Why exactly would universal background checks and anti-trafficking measures hurt law-abiding citizens?
  11. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:07 am
    "During his announcement, Obama stated that in the month since the massacre in Newtown, more than 900 Americans have been killed by guns."

    NO THEY HAVEN`T!

    Those people were killed by, people. How many were crimes? How many were justifiable self defense?

    Why does the media let him get away with this crap?!?!?!
  12. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36870 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:08 am

    In summary, spend half a billion dollars with the result that you have not kept one person safe from gun violence.

    Good Job POTUS!
  13. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:08 am
    I do agree that 100 rounds compared to 10 is not necessary (for this example), but making it law isn`t going to stop those who want to do evil. Criminals do not follow the laws.
  14. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:09 am
    HalfPintRoo

    "these laws aren`t going to change the bad things, it`s just going to hurt those who do follow laws."

    Well let`s look at recent events.

    The Aurora shooter obtained his guns and ammo legally. So, assuming he would have behaved the same, had these laws been in action he would have only had 10 round magazines instead of 100.

    The Sandy Hook shooter got his guns from his mother who obtained them legally. So, assuming he would have behaved the same, had these laws been in action she and then he would not have had the AR 15 (if this law bans that).

    Right?
  15. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:09 am
    HalfPintRoo

    "Criminals do not follow the laws."

    The Aurora shooter followed the laws and obtained all his ammunition legally. OK? So stop saying that.
  16. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:11 am
    by "hurt" I mean added expense. (Come on, there is no way the cost isn`t going to go up from added background checks and what not).

    Because wackos go on shooting sprees doesn`t mean everyone who owns guns are bad too.
  17. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:12 am
    vague and fail to address any of the actual issues that caused the debate in the first place. also murder was and still is a crime, yet social issues that lead to it are completely ignored.
  18. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:12 am
    It`s amazing. Now you guys are attacking the very principle of laws and law enforcement. So there`s no point in having streetlights because bad drivers won`t follow them?
  19. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6919 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:12 am
    AJ

    "more than 900 Americans have been killed by guns."

    NO THEY HAVEN`T!

    Those people were killed by, people."

    You are splitting hairs, but I do agree. Allow me to rephrase that.

    "more than 900 Americans have been killed WITH guns."

    Does that make you feel better?
  20. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:13 am
    He obtained these things legally because they were legal. Exactly. My point is making it illegal isn`t going to stop him from getting the exact same gun/magazines and doing the exact same thing.
  21. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:15 am
    "Can you say with certainty that there would not have been as much damage if the Aurora shooter was only able to get 10 round magazines instead of the 100 round he used?"

    Please watch this video for my reply.....

    ...and this one...

    ...and this one...

    ...and this one...
  22. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:15 am
    Why is rape and murder illegal? I mean criminals do it anyway right? Right? RIGHT?

    Murder is too which didn`t stop the shooters so how would gun laws?

    As for mag size you can change a mag pretty quick doubt it would`ve had a massive impact. High caps will be grandfathered again making everyone look for the millions of preban mags making the only thing accomplished is a price increase for preban mags. This was attempted from 1994 to 2004(i think around there) it did nothing.
  23. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:15 am
    Why is rape and murder illegal? I mean criminals do it anyway right? Right? RIGHT?
    The answer is twofold. First, the authority to become a law comes from the fact that rape and murder directly infringe on the rights of others. Second, the law is effective ONLY because the vast majority of society considers the law moral and righteous. If you doubt this, consider why rape laws are more effective than drug laws.

    Can you say with certainty that there would not have been as much damage if the Aurora shooter was only able to get 10 round magazines instead of the 100 round he used?
    The same result could have been achieved with 10 magazines of 10 rounds. We can examine this further if you would like.

    had these laws been in action she and then he would not have had the AR 15
    He would have then used the several pistols he brought - same result.
  24. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4348 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:15 am
    but didn`t obama say he wasn`t EVER going to take any guns? oh, thats right, he did. But then again, he also said he wasn`t going to raise your taxes either...
  25. Profile photo of Finker
    Finker Male 40-49
    505 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:18 am
    Laws make no difference seems to be main argument here because people break them. No arguing with that logic, might as well just shoot them, so what if there is there a law against it.
  26. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:19 am
    Banning "military-style" assault weapons


    Now please give me a definition of that cause the military uses pistols, shotguns and rifles.
  27. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:19 am
    So there`s no point in having streetlights because bad drivers won`t follow them?
    Not quite the same thing. A better analogy would be that we shouldn`t have laws making it illegal to run a redlight rather than getting rid of stoplights.

    There is evidence that removing the enforcement of these laws inversely correlates with accident rates. So, the argument could very well be made that we should get rid of stoplight laws.

    However, the key consideration is that the vast majority (not just the slight majority) of society find those laws and punishments to be righteous. Thus, the laws are effective.
  28. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:20 am
    @emmettyville

    Don`t call out the messiah his drones can`t take the truth.
  29. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:21 am
    I`m not saying there shouldn`t be laws. I`m not saying military grade weapons should be in the hands of anyone who passes a background. I`m not saying I agree with automatic weapons being available to anyone.

    I`m just saying, those 20 kids in CT wouldn`t have been saved because these laws are in place.

    I`m tired of people using that (and other massacres) to push this through. They try to say these things WILL STOP HAPPENING if these laws are passed.

    They aren`t going to stop.
  30. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:23 am
    I`ll be keeping my high caps I like to shoot not reload and I refuse to be punished for other peoples actions.
  31. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:23 am
    @McGovern

    Don`t call out the messiah his drones can`t take the truth.
    I find it absolutely ridiculous that this is so true. I`ve never seen a group of people so willing to blindly and faithfully follow and defend the actions of one person.

    Now, I haven`t been alive during the presidency of a popular Republican, so I must wonder if it was the same way for Reagan followers.
  32. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:26 am
    "I`ve never seen a group of people so willing to blindly and faithfully follow and defend the actions of one person."

    You do realize that a lot of us are constantly criticizing Obama for being too weak on the banks and for ramping up drone strikes and anti-civil liberties legislation?
  33. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:27 am
    "but didn`t obama say he wasn`t EVER going to take any guns? oh, thats right, he did. But then again, he also said he wasn`t going to raise your taxes either..."

    And he hasn`t broken that promise here. He suggested the Assault Weapons Ban, but that`s up to congress. And even if that passes, it only applies to new sales.
  34. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:29 am
    @FoolsPrussia

    Don`t forget the taxes or have you not noticed the difference in your paycheck yet? So much for helping the middle class.
  35. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:29 am
    You do realize that a lot of us are constantly criticizing Obama for being too weak on the banks and for ramping up drone strikes and anti-civil liberties legislation?
    Of course, in which case I would suggest that you are not one of the `drones` referenced by McGovern.

    However, from my own observations, there seems to be an unreasonably large following of people who fit into that category.
  36. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7618 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:29 am
    All I can say is - you can keep your damn guns. Those things are dangerous, they make it far too easy to kill someone- as long as we do not get them here (just as we seem to get everything else we don`t really want- please take back McDonalds) you can all go and shoot each other all you like. Just do it quietly please.
  37. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:30 am
    I`m not saying military grade weapons should be in the hands of anyone who passes a background.

    Most guns are military grade. They`re designed from something like the military uses or for a contract with the military. That`s the history of most guns designs.
  38. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:31 am
    Just do it quietly please.

    Can`t silencers are class 3 so only the rich can have them.
  39. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:35 am
    "Don`t forget the taxes or have you not noticed the difference in your paycheck yet? So much for helping the middle class."

    Are you referring to the payroll tax holiday expiring?
  40. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:36 am
    "However, from my own observations, there seems to be an unreasonably large following of people who fit into that category."

    Yeah, that`s unfortunate. I think people in general are lazy about politics and only want to participate when there`s an election.
  41. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:37 am
    HolyGod-"Why is rape and murder illegal? I mean criminals do it anyway right? Right? RIGHT?"

    Yes, they do. You don`t think laws against rape and murder actually deter either, do you? They`re illegal so that the perp can be punished afterward.

    In this case, he`s punishing law abiding citizens due to the actions of criminals.

    A more accurate anology of this situation to rape is: Some criminals rape, so we will outlaw `assault penises` of law abiding citizens, and any over 2" (so you`re safe).
  42. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:40 am
    >>>So there`s no point in having streetlights because bad drivers won`t follow them?<<<

    What a horrendous argument. We have street light because GOOD drivers follow them AND they help reduce accidents and increase the flow of traffic in general.

    Are you saying that banning assault rifles (what ever that is) will prevent law abiding citizens from massacring children in a school? If so I suggest that you may be focusing on the wrong problem.
  43. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:45 am
    @dang007: No, what I`m doing is refuting the argument people have made here that laws don`t stop criminals.
  44. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:46 am
    Irony:We need guns to protect ourselves from gun-nuts.
  45. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:48 am
    @FoolsPrussia- so you think that the kid who killed his mother, school children and adults would have stopped and said "No, I can`t, there is a law banning such weapons so I`ll never get my hands on them" or even "well these weapons are illegal so I will use these other legal ones"
  46. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:48 am
    @halfpintroo Nope it wont. But it will make it much harder and will allow law enforcement to do something should they see or even suspect someone has one.
  47. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:49 am
    FoolsPrussia-"Are you referring to the payroll tax holiday expiring?"

    Which is a raise in taxes.

    Other taxes on those making less than $250,000 (who he promised would see no increase in taxes):
    Doubled-taxes on tobacco products.
    10% tax on tanning services (that one sounded racist to me).
    Hike in Medicare Payroll Tax
    Taxes on health savings accounts.
    Taxes on Medical Device manufacturers (so your kids braces cost more)
    Elimination of tax deduction for employer-provided Drug coverage.
    Blue Cross/Blue Shield tax hike.

    And this is just some of the taxes already inacted. Over the next decade there will be many more.
  48. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:51 am
    @tedgp- I agree completely.

    I have no issues with making laws, I just want people to know that is isn`t a magic fix to bad things happening.
  49. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:52 am
    Pretty much what tedgp said.
  50. Profile photo of dang007
    dang007 Male 30-39
    599 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:52 am
    >>>No, what I`m doing is refuting the argument people have made here that laws don`t stop criminals.<<<

    Well they don`t and you didn`t. Criminals by the definition, BREAK LAWS.
  51. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:58 am
    Nope it wont. But it will make it much harder and will allow law enforcement to do something should they see or even suspect someone has one.
    By all indications, this is simply not true. I know - Europe in general has less homicides per capita than the US. However, this overly-simplistic analysis fails to consider demographics, socioeconomic factors, so on and so forth.

    How then, should we look and see if gun laws are effective in reducing homicides and crime? We should look at countries that have enacted them and analyze their crime rate changes relative to other countries crime rate changes over time.

    What do we find if we do this? Even strict gun laws, such as in Australia, do not have significant effects on crime rates or homicide rates. Look into it for other countries, as well as our own, and the same holds true.
  52. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:00 pm
    <<900 people killed with guns in the month since Newton>>
    It`s called MATH Mr.Obama! MATH!
    12,000 per year / 365 = 33 PER DAY!
    30 days x 33 = 990
    I`d say it was a pretty safe month actually!

    FFS! THIS PASSES AS FACTS FOR THE LEFT?

    More than TWICE that number have comitted SUICIDE!
    Car accidents, heart attacks, cancer, ALL KILLED MORE.

    Reducing "clip size" will solve... NOTHING.

    Idiots...
  53. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:06 pm
    Why is rape and murder illegal? I mean criminals do it anyway right? Right? RIGHT?
    @HolyGod: So all men should be required to have a background check and a liscence before going on a date? Because some men rape women, ALL men must obey draconian laws?

    Why exactly would universal background checks and anti-trafficking measures hurt law-abiding citizens?
    @FoolsPrussia: Because it will cost a fortune, and taxpayers will be forced to pay for it?
    Because law enforcement will spend tons of time on paperwork of honest citizens, rather than chasing bad-guys?
    Because many will have their rights taken away due to errors, mistakes and other "beurocratic snafu"?
    I got more, but those should do.

    The Aurora shooter obtained his guns and ammo legally.
    @HolyGod and he build bombs, which is ILLEGAL. What`s your point?
  54. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:07 pm
    Thank you, 5Cats
  55. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:10 pm
    Let me guess these laws don`t apply to law enforcement because they`ve never abused power.......
  56. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    You are splitting hairs, but I do agree. Allow me to rephrase that.

    "more than 900 Americans have been killed WITH guns."
    @HolyGod it`s STILL wrong: Gun Suicides aren`t counted in that number.
    However to count them as "gun deaths" would be like MADD counting ice-caused accidents as a "drunk driver death", for example.
    It`s a seperate thing altogether.

    Meanwhile: 900 "gun deaths" eh?
    How many were with ILLEGAL guns? By gangs? By criminals? A: Most of them.

    In those "30 days" there were:
    140 knife murders
    34 blunt object murders
    61 "bare hands" murders (feet, choking & etc)
    6 arson murders

    It`s called REALITY! Banning certain "gun clips" will do nothing to improve it.

    Spending billions on USELESS, COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE laws will actaully make it WORSE!
  57. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:24 pm
    @dang007: No, what I`m doing is refuting the argument people have made here that laws don`t stop criminals.
    @FoolsPrussia: Quite the opposite! You`ve proven that LAWFUL CITIZENS obey the law! Laws like, don`t rape, don`t murder, don`t DUI...

    Meanwhile, criminals, in cars, run red lights & stop signs. These signs do not PREVENT anything, they inform the public of road conditions! ie: it`s safe (green) to enter this intersection now. It`s about to change (amber) & etc.

    Thanks for proving OUR side is right! I mean correct.

    @tedgp: Laws are supposed to "make it harder"? So why isn`t the speed limit 10 MPH on the highway? You know, to "make it harder for criminals to speed"? Think how many lives would be SAVED! (really, many lives would be, not kidding!)
  58. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    Because some men rape women, ALL men must obey draconian laws?
    A background check is hardly "draconian." Making the purchase of guns more difficult doesn`t infringe on anyone`s rights, it just makes things more annoying. B-O-O-H-O-O. I follow the law when I drive a car, so why should I have to get a license? That just punishes me when I`ve done nothing wrong.

    Because law enforcement will spend tons of time on paperwork of honest citizens, rather than chasing bad-guys?
    And how is ensuring that only those allowed to have guns have them *not* chasing bad guys again?
  59. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    Thank you, 5Cats
    You`re welcome @HalfPintRoo! You`ve done an excellent job thus far yourself, all while being polite too!

    Unlike many "left wing positions" this one is really, seriously flawed! There isn`t even a shred of truth, speck of evidence or possibility of success with their "plan".

    It`s "spend money" followed by "grab guns" without one single crime or death prevented!

    Worse: It will actually CAUSE more crime, CAUSE more death! Nice, eh?
  60. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:33 pm
    It will actually CAUSE more crime, CAUSE more death! Nice, eh?
    Wow, you must be some kind of diviner to know that. All hail Nostra-dumbass.
  61. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:33 pm

    I don`t like how the sandy hook tragedy is being used for political gain. Tragedy is good for politicians to force their agenda, especially when the agenda includes removing civil liberty`s and constitutional rights. It`s not just the left. Bush used 9/11 to take all sorts of freedoms, for example...the patriot act.

    It`s not right to play on peoples emotions for politics. I effin love America and it`s people, but hate our current politicians, government, and...well...the whole damn system.
  62. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:34 pm
    And how is ensuring that only those allowed to have guns have them *not* chasing bad guys again?
    @patchy: You`re Canadian, you ought to know the answer:
    In Canada, police forces, both Federal and Provincial, spend millions of dollars and millions of "man-hours" implimenting the "long rifle registry".
    ALL of those dollars and ALL of those hours were taken AWAY from "law enforcement" and put into "registration enforcement".
    ALL THAT TIME AND MONEY could have solved or prevented actual crimes! Except the police were busy... with paperwork!
    And arresting people for having "typos" in that paperworks...

    And I repeat: not ONE crime prevented, not ONE crime solved.
  63. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:37 pm
    Wow, you must be some kind of diviner to know that. All hail Nostra-dumbass.
    @patchy: Taking cops off the streets?
    Cutting budgeets to meet new expenses?
    Filling courtrooms with "paperwork crimes"?

    These are things which allow real criminals to go about thier business (crime, murder) un-opposed! And with the civilians disarmed to boot!

    So YES, it`s like the nose on your face, eh?
  64. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:42 pm
    Bush used 9/11 to take all sorts of freedoms, for example...the patriot act.
    @turdy: Exactly! I sure didn`t like it at the time, and now there`s lots of money spent, with little to NO increased safety & security!
    Sound familiar?
    I remember how the left HOWLED with outrage (even though the Democrats in Washington fully supported it) over things like that, but this? It`s OK because it`s Obama?
    Gimmie a break!

    @patchy: How about the 10 MPH speed limit? You`d support that, right? Saves the environment, saves children`s lives! For reals, not "in theory"...

    There`s a reason why the "55 MPH" laws were overturned...
  65. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:42 pm
    @5cats: I missed the part where a gun registry was the same as a background check.
  66. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:47 pm
    Taking cops off the streets?
    Cutting budgeets to meet new expenses?
    Filling courtrooms with "paperwork crimes"?
    All mere assumptions with no basis in fact. Hint: courtrooms already have "paperwork crimes" all the time, I fail to see how a background check system will dramatically increase this.

    As to the long gun registry, your assertion that it didn`t help solve any crimes is false. The majority of police wanted to keep the registry, and a CAFC survey found that 74% of general duty officers said that "query results have proven beneficial during major operations." But since they aren`t implementing a long-gun registry, your point is moot.
  67. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 12:48 pm
    @patchy: How about the 10 MPH speed limit? You`d support that, right? Saves the environment, saves children`s lives! For reals, not "in theory"...
    I wouldn`t support it, in point of fact, because it would destroy the economy by creating mass shipping delays, mail delivery delays, etc. I also don`t support switching to the imperial system, I don`t know why you are.
  68. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 1:04 pm
    I also don`t support switching to the imperial system, I don`t know why you are.
    @patchy: I`m speaking about American Gun Laws, so I used American Highway laws (and terminology) as a result, ok?

    All mere assumptions with no basis in fact.
    Quite the opposite: Some Provinces tried to demand hundreds of millions per year to defray the costs of Registration, but the Liberals refused (of course!).
    On average: 1 billion per year by the Feds, and 1 billion per year by all the Provinces, MINIMUM was spent.

    "query results have proven beneficial during major operations."
    That`s a bare-faced LIE and you know it!
    Are you suggesting, just for one second, that drug dealers REGISTERED ALL THEIR RIFLES with police? And that if the Registry showed they didn`t have one, the cops DID NOT peresume they were armed anyhow?
  69. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 1:06 pm
    I also don`t support switching to the imperial system, I don`t know why you are.
  70. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 1:12 pm
    What happened to "...and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"?

    He`s breaking his oath of office and should be arrested and impeached.
  71. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 1:23 pm
    Whatever happened to Madest?

    I miss him in times like these.
  72. Profile photo of rosieodonnel
    rosieodonnel Male 18-29
    27 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    @HolyGod

    It sounded reasonable, until I read that $500 mil part. $500 mil could save an entire school district and then some.
  73. Profile photo of rosieodonnel
    rosieodonnel Male 18-29
    27 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 2:38 pm
    @tedgp You do realize that the AR15 has been on the market since the 60s, right? Owners will most likely be grandfathered in. It would be a nightmare trying to remove them from people who legally purchased them.
  74. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 3:05 pm
    [quote">Whatever happened to Madest?

    I miss him in times like these.[/quote">

    @AJ: Like a toothache!
    It`s so easy to predict exactly what he`d say, he doesn`t need to say it. Just use the words "retard" "Republican" and "Canadian" as an insult, all in the same sentence? There you go!

    Eye Candy: Kodomo no Jikan Safe, just large and off-topic. Eye-bleach to remove the thought of @madest`s comments.
  75. Profile photo of Scuzoid
    Scuzoid Male 30-39
    1268 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 3:06 pm
    I find it odd it`s easier to get a gun as a civilian than it is as an active duty member of the military. With that said:

    To those anti-gun legislation, lets assume the "military style assault ban" is a bargaining chip, and you either ban "those" guns or require mental health evaluations for everyone seeking to purchase any gun (in addition to the background check) which would you choose?

    To those pro-gun legislation, lets assume the proposed "military style gun ban" turns out to be ALL guns are banned OR a mental health evaluation is required to purchase any gun a civilian is currently able to purchase. Which would you choose?

    I frequently question why US civilian laws and legislation are seemingly years behind US military laws and legislation.
  76. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm
    Obama`s Gun Control Package
    Obama`s Gun Package
    Obama`s Package...

    I gotta stop watching hentai... it`s melting my brainz! :-P
  77. Profile photo of dirtysteve00
    dirtysteve00 Male 30-39
    373 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 4:08 pm
    `What happened to "...and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"?

    He`s breaking his oath of office and should be arrested and impeached.`


    You do realise that people will still be able to bear arms right?
    Calm your tits.
  78. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 4:26 pm
    @dirtysteve: Oh sure! Still own weapons?
    The "rich" will.
    The "elite" will.

    Like David Gregory for example: who waved an ILLEGAL weapon (a 30-round magazine) in Washington DC but was NOT prosecuted. But others who had them in the trunks of their cars and were driving through? THEY went to court!

    Like Rosie Odonnel: Who demanded all firearms be banned, but employed armed security guards for herself!

    THAT is what the left desires most: A "European" system where the Royalty (ie: the left) has one law and the "peasants" have another.

    Let them eat cake!
  79. Profile photo of Dad4Life
    Dad4Life Male 50-59
    2086 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 4:30 pm
    $500 million to once again use the constitution as his personal toilet paper. drat you Obama.
  80. Profile photo of hi2pi
    hi2pi Male 30-39
    736 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 8:47 pm
    the female uterus is more regulated than assault weapons are in your country. that, in itself, is an obscenity.
  81. Profile photo of diylobotomy
    diylobotomy Male 18-29
    1832 posts
    January 16, 2013 at 11:41 pm
    SCfan and all other gun nuts who are butthurt about this: He`s not taking all your guns. You can still shoot things. Calm the drat down and stop posting stupid pro-gun poo on facebook, the rest of us are sick of it.
  82. Profile photo of Palfas
    Palfas Male 30-39
    411 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 3:23 am
    5cats can`t find a good reason to attack any of these reasonable proposals so he claims they`re too expensive and cumbersome. Oh man, if that was a reason not to do things, this whole country, nay the whole world would cease functioning.

    Laws are only for law abiding people! So don`t obey they law, get you`re self arrested, fine by me. Besides, I`m sure you`ve never ever broken any laws ever.

    But criminals will still break the law! Everyone`s a law abiding citizen until they break the law. There`s no such things as "criminals" as a class of people, unless you`re being a racist a-hole. When you say "lawful citizens" and "criminals" you just prove how willfully ignorant you are.

    These proposals are ineffective, they wont stop gun violence! You`re right, but they will probably help. Is that now the bar for all new laws, if they aren`t 100% effective, then they`re useless? If at first we don`t succeed, then fark it.
  83. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 4:03 am
    @dang007

    "Are you saying that banning assault rifles (what ever that is) will prevent law abiding citizens from massacring children in a school? If so I suggest that you may be focusing on the wrong problem."

    The Sandy Hook shooter WAS a law-abiding citizen right up until the shootings.

    Law-abiding citizens going on shooting sprees is EXACTLY the problem that you face.
  84. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 4:15 am
    @5Cats

    "THAT is what the left desires most: A "European" system where the Royalty (ie: the left) has one law and the "peasants" have another."

    The British Royalty don`t arm themselves for defence. The POLICE defend them with armed officers.

    If I were a high-profile public figure who were likely to be threatened and attacked, I would have armed police defending me too. I`m not, and they are, so that`s why they have armed police outside their homes, and I don`t. They need them, and I don`t.
  85. Profile photo of Finker
    Finker Male 40-49
    505 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 5:50 am
    @5cats, the royalty would definitely be described as right not left in the UK. It is elected parliament that really makes the laws the Royals have very little input, if that is the best argument you have then you are struggling.
  86. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 5:59 am
    The Sandy Hook shooter WAS a law-abiding citizen right up until the shootings.

    The guns were not legally his now how would more laws prevent something that was already illegal?
  87. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:00 am
    The British Royalty don`t arm themselves for defence. The POLICE defend them with armed officers.

    While you have to fend for yourself how convenient.
  88. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:08 am
    The AR-15 was designed specifically for the military. Why a civilian needs anything larger than a pump action rifle/shotgun I will never understand. I`d be embarrassed bringing an AR-15 up hunting. That`s like showing up to a game with your face painted. Well not really but I couldn`t think of a better analogy. For your house if you need anything larger than a pump action rifle/shotgun or a handgun you should move immediately. The AR-15 definitely shouldn`t be in the hands of militias/patriot groups because, well, they`re nuts. They think people are out to get them. Militias are the last people we should be arming with semi-automatic riffles.
  89. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:10 am
    patchgrabber-" follow the law when I drive a car, so why should I have to get a license?"

    Because you purchase a license for the PRIVILEGE of driving on the public roadways and infrastructure.

    Driving a vehicle on the roads is not a right. Not comparable.

    patchgrabber-"I find it odd it`s easier to get a gun as a civilian than it is as an active duty member of the military."

    What gives you the idea that active duty memebers have a harder time getting a gun? They don`t. They can get anything a civilian of the same age can.

    Oh, you mean `on the job`. Well, in your job, you`re told if you can have a new bar-code scanner or not, right?
  90. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:12 am
    hi2pi-"the female uterus is more regulated than assault weapons are in your country. that, in itself, is an obscenity"

    And that statement, in itself, is an absurdity. A rifle can cost hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars and you have to fill out reams of paperwork to get one legally. The female uterus can be had for the cost of a happy meal.

    Musuko42-"They need them, and I don`t."

    So you actually feel they are more important than you, and more valuable than you.

    Way to be a peon.
  91. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:23 am
    Obama`s plan is probably to limit Magazines to 10 rounds. He understands that the semi-automatic ban will never make it through the house. But the health care debate taught him that you can`t start with what you want. With the kids in congress you have to go in extreme and cut back to what you want. And that is because we keep electing jackasses to the House and Senate. They really are like children.
  92. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:45 am
    @markust123

    Shotguns are a much larger caliber than an AR-15. There`s literally millions of them in the US because what they won`t tell you is it`s a top notch target rifle used in competitions by many. It`s a good rifle for many things.
  93. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14657 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 7:05 am
    *gets popcorn out*
  94. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 7:59 am
    Why a civilian needs anything larger than a pump action rifle/shotgun I will never understand.

    Being my old liberal self I`d tell you there are certainly times when the police cannot be trusted to respect your rights or your property. Course that would probably make more of an anarchist.
  95. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 8:14 am
    markust123-"Why a civilian needs anything larger than a pump action rifle/shotgun I will never understand."

    Your undestanding is not required.
  96. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 8:34 am
    Lets think about this for a moment. A loaded gun sitting on a table will harm no one. A loaded gun in the hands of law abiding citizen will harm a criminal or a crazy with a gun. A loaded gun in the hands of criminals or crazies will harm a law abiding citizen. So pass a law taking away the guns and only criminals will have them. The crazies will continue to do crazy poo BUT they won`t shoot people. Instead they will drive a moving truck packed with explosives to large government building and blow it up. Or send letter bombs. Or set fires. Or stab people. Or rape them and stab them. Or stab them THEN rape them. So...With that being said, we need to address the issues within our society that are causing these incidents. Then and only then will we be able to solve the problem.
  97. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 8:40 am
    On another note, Unless you buy a gun from a private individual you have to have a background check. At gun shows all the vendors there will do background checks per state and BATF rules and regulations. As a gun owner I support background checks for ALL firearm transfers, private or though a dealer.
  98. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:32 am
    @McGovern1981

    In 2012 there were 636 murders in the UK, and the population is currently 62,641,000. That means the chance of me being murdered last year was 0.001015309%.

    In 2010 (I can`t find figures for 2012), there were 5,608 suicides, out of a population of (aprox) 62,300,000. That means the chance of me killing myself in 2010 was 0.009001605%

    That means the statistics suggest I am 8.86 times more likely to kill myself than I am to be killed by someone else.

    So if the person most likely to kill me is myself...why on earth would I want to arm my most likely killer?
  99. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:36 am
    @MeGrendel

    "So you actually feel they are more important than you, and more valuable than you."

    They are not more important. They are just more threatened than I am and are in need of more defence.

    If someone with cancer gets radiotherapy, and cancer-free you doesn`t, do you feel less valuable?
  100. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:47 am
    for all this "the police will save me" stuff, little story. i live in berlin, the german capital, and 2 minutes walk from a police station. in my appartment complex the walls are pretty soundproof yet a man who lives here beat his wife constantly to where i could hear it as if it was in the next room, 3 floors up. i called the cops of course and their response time was on average 30 to 40 minutes. i also had people break into my home illegally and loot the place, it took the cops 45 minutes to show up while i was stuck in my own bathroom with soaked hair, a knife, my phone and nothing but my skivvies on while they trashed my place. they took 45 minutes to arrive by which time those people had looted and left. why i didnt use the knife, while trained and qualified on it, is 3 on one with no idea what theyre carrying themselves, because criminals do not give a flying drat about licenses or laws.
    criminals do not wait while you phone the cops, and cops cannot teleport. be re
  101. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:52 am
    *be realistic. also i´m a gun owner but as i´m responsible i had my weapons locked away in a cabinet, which was beyond their ability to damage or steal. i do believe that they saw me with my knife in hand did play a part in not booting my bathroom door in however. none the less the moral is the cops are human also and not a magic spell. crimes will always happen regardless of your proximity to law enforcement or ownership of weapons, and words on paper do not stop you from taking an action should you wish to do so, they`re an honor system.
  102. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:56 am
    These laws are not going to stop school shootings. Period.

    These laws were pushed through because of a horrible school shooting, giving people the idea that these laws will stop these school shootings.

    That`s my problem with it. We will be no more safer after these laws pass. But, lets waste our time and resources making sure these guns are not available to the majority of people who will never use them to kill/hurt another person.

    Because these laws will ensure that the FEW who do will never ever get their hands on them!
  103. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 10:17 am
    "These laws are not going to stop school shootings. Period.

    These laws were pushed through because of a horrible school shooting, giving people the idea that these laws will stop these school shootings. "

    First of all, there are no laws yet. Obama recommended that Congress pass several laws, but that hasn`t happened yet, and many may not happen at all.

    Secondly, the things described as "executive orders" are really just a mix of recommendations and appointments, as you can see from this article.
  104. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 10:18 am
    So if the person most likely to kill me is myself...why on earth would I want to arm my most likely killer?

    Cause you can`t kill yourself without a gun? They call that a choice.
  105. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 11:17 am
    Musuko42-"If someone with cancer gets radiotherapy, and cancer-free you doesn`t, do you feel less valuable?"

    Actually, it`s more like you and a congressman have cancer, but only the congressman is allowed to get treatment.

    FoolsPrussia-"First of all, there are no laws yet."

    There`s laws against murdering your mom, stealing cars, bringing guns on school ground and murdering teachers and kids, amoung others.

    How`d THOSE work out?
  106. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    579 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 11:33 am
    What`s another 500 million on top of the 16 trillion we already have burying us?! Pile it on I say! Pile it on!
  107. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 11:54 am
    "There`s laws against murdering your mom, stealing cars, bringing guns on school ground and murdering teachers and kids, amoung others.

    How`d THOSE work out?"

    Why don`t you move somewhere without laws and enforcement? I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year.
  108. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:11 pm
    5cats can`t find a good reason to attack any of these reasonable proposals so he claims they`re too expensive and cumbersome.
    @Palfas: I`ve put up many posts with MANY good reasons why these "points" are useless. #1 being the money is utterly wasted. #2 being that these "points" are probably counter-productive.

    If you`d bother to READ previous posts you`d know this.

    @Finker: You`ve completely ignored my point. "The Left" wants TWO sets of laws: one for "them" and one for "others". I used midevil Royalty as an example of how that works, but there`s 100`s of others in history.

    @markust: ANY gun can be used "by the military" but the AR-15 is not the same as the M-16, ok? Your Chevrolet is NOT a "Sherman Tank"...

    Why a civilian needs anything larger...
    When seconds count? The police are 10 minutes away!
  109. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:12 pm
    "Why don`t you move somewhere without laws and enforcement? I hear Somalia is lovely this time of year."

    You keep saying that.

    We aren`t against having laws. We want to be able to punish those who kill other people. But we aren`t so naive to think those laws will STOP murder.

    Making laws do not stop crime, especially when someone gets it in their head to KILL.

    Taking guns out of the hands of those who do abide the law isn`t going to KEEP the guns out of those who don`t plan on abiding by the law.

    Get it?
  110. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:20 pm
    @Musuko42: I`ve demonstrated (with Wiki) that gun availability does NOT alter suicide rates. Canada and Australia, they still use guns or other methods at the (overall) same rate.
    #2 Shouldn`t "doing something" about suicide be MORE important then? Will Obama`s "points" help those people? Doubtful.

    Well said @VikingGuy!

    You too @HalfPintRoo!

    @papajon0s1: lolz! More spending! Moar I say!
  111. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:29 pm
    @HalfPintRoo:

    I suggest that you watch the opening segment from The Daily Show last night. There Goes the Boom Parts 1 and 2

    There are reasons criminals are getting guns, and Jon Stewart does a good job of showing why and who is responsible. Many of the actions initiated by Obama yesterday are meant to fix these problems.
  112. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:32 pm
    FoolsPrussia-"Why don`t you move somewhere without laws and enforcement?"

    I never cared for Chicago.
  113. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:54 pm
    @VikingGuy

    1: Why aren`t you fighting for better police, then?
    2: Would having a gun for defence have helped you in that situation? Would you have had it there with you in the bathroom?
    3: Why on earth did you have a knife in the bathroom?
  114. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:55 pm
    @McGovern1981

    "Cause you can`t kill yourself without a gun? They call that a choice."

    The gun makes it easier. So again, why should I make things easier for the person most likely to kill me: myself?
  115. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 12:58 pm
    @MeGrendel

    "Actually, it`s more like you and a congressman have cancer, but only the congressman is allowed to get treatment."

    No, it`s more like the congressman has cancer, and I do not have cancer...so he needs and gets the treatment, and I don`t need it nor want it.

    I do not need a gun nor armed guards because I am not under constant daily threat from nutjobs. The royal family and others like them are.

    And as I`ve pointed out before, the person most likely to kill me is INSIDE the house: me. It is better for my survival to keep weapons away from that person.

    Remember, 8.86 times more likely to kill myself than someone else is to kill me, as shown by the real world figures of my country (roughly hashed together by me).
  116. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:01 pm
    Musuko42-"The gun makes it easier."

    No easier than slitting your wrist, overdosing on drugs, hanging youself or jumping off a building.

    You think it`s easier? I can should you an imate of guy who tried to commit suicide with a shotgun, and failed. He lived, and missing his head from the eyeballs down.

    Musuko42-"So again, why should I make things easier for the person most likely to kill me: myself?"

    A few points:
    If you`re going to kill yourself, any means will do. A gun is not required.
    If you DON`T want to kill yourself, having a gun on hand will not suddenly make it more attractive.
    If it does, YOU are the problem, not the gun.
    You asanine statments just demonstrate that you have an irrational fear of an inanimate object.
  117. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:02 pm
    @5Cats

    "I`ve demonstrated (with Wiki) that gun availability does NOT alter suicide rates."

    If a gun makes it easier to be a threat to an intruder, then it must also make it easier for you to be a threat to yourself, should that urge strike you.

    And I`ve pointed out that you`re more of a threat to yourself than others are to you.

    So again...why assist and arm your most likely killer?
  118. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    @MeGrendel

    "No easier than slitting your wrist, overdosing on drugs, hanging youself or jumping off a building."

    So why do you care so much about having a gun to protect from criminals if it`s just as easy to slit their wrists, overdose them, or throw them off a building?

    Check and bloody mate.
  119. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:07 pm
    @MeGrendel

    "You asanine statments just demonstrate that you have an irrational fear of an inanimate object"

    Yet you`re not irrational for fearing the murderous attentions of a criminal breaking into your home that you`ll seek to put a deadly weapon into the hands of the person statistically most likely to kill you?

    You`re like those people who think it`s safer to wear a seatbelt so you don`t get trapped in a wreck, you really are.

    And if you think that the ease of access to a quick, easy, and painless death doesn`t factor into suicides, then I wonder about your mental capacity, and would perhaps invite you to visit Beachy Head and ask potential jumpers why they have chosen the instant death of hitting the rocks at the bottom of a huge cliff rather than suffer the agony of slit wrists or overdose.
  120. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:08 pm
    Musuko42-"No, it`s more like the congressman has cancer, and I do not have cancer"

    So, you`re saying that there is absolutely no chance of your kids being involved in violence. (and thus, a fool).

    I`m sure at least a few of the parents at Sandy Hook had that mistaken impression, too.

    Sorry, but you DO have the cancer (i.e. have the possiblity of violence being commited o you).


    Musuko42-"the person most likely to kill me is INSIDE the house: me."

    One day, you may just realize how ignorant you are, and consider it further. (I take it you`re not married...if you were, YOU wouldn`t be the person most likely to kill you...)

    Musuko42-"It is better for my survival to keep weapons away from that person."

    Believe me, We`re ALL glad you don`t have access to weapons. But that does not mean we are worried about reasonable, rational and SANE people owning them.
  121. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:18 pm
    From one of the police recordings of a 911 call from inside the Aurora theater that jackass got off 30 shots in 27 seconds. Call it a semi-automatic but that is automatic to me. It shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger. At least at the minimum what is wrong with limiting the magazines to 10 cartridges? The shooter has to detach himself from what he is doing. That could cause him to think about his actions. Also this gives a chance for the shooter to be tackled when he reloads. If you want 30 for target practice make a law where you check out cartridges from the shooting range.
  122. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:19 pm
    @5Cats, "ANY gun can be used "by the military" but the AR-15 is not the same as the M-16, ok? Your Chevrolet is NOT a Sherman Tank"

    Christ, your spin is getting so predictable. You know I am not talking about any guns. The AR-15 was designed for the military to be used to be able to kill as many people in the shortest amount of time. In the design process is was turned into the M16. Then Colt after buying the Design went back to the AR-15 name when they release a semi-automatic version for the public. It is insane that a gun designed for the military to be used to be able to kill as many people in the shortest amount of time was ever allowed to be sold to civilians.
  123. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3929 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:25 pm
    @5Cats, "Like David Gregory for example: who waved an ILLEGAL weapon (a 30-round magazine) in Washington DC but was NOT prosecuted."

    How you didn`t get called out for calling a magazine a weapon I will never know. I guess it is selective correctivness. I got sh*t for calling a cartridge a bullet.
  124. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:26 pm
    @Musuko42

    Following your logic you should live in a bubble for "saftey." Everything around you is a threat to your life so eat everything with your hands and round off all sharp corners. The rest of us will choose to live an actual life.
  125. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:30 pm
    At least at the minimum what is wrong with limiting the magazines to 10 cartridges?

    Cause criminals don`t always work in small groups.
  126. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:44 pm
    Well apparently I`m wrong and misinformed.

    I guess I`ll sleep better tonight knowing there is no longer a threat to be shot in schools, theaters, malls or anywhere else by wackjobs.

    Thank you!
  127. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:46 pm
    markust123-"Call it a semi-automatic but that is automatic to me."

    Then obviously you do not know the difference. Why are we not surprised.

    markust123-"It shoots as fast as you can pull the trigger."

    Which IS, of course, the DEFINITION of a `semi-auto`.

    markust123-"How you didn`t get called out for calling a magazine a weapon"

    The same way YOU call a `semi-auto` an `auto`: ignorance.
  128. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:47 pm
    @MeGrendel

    "So, you`re saying that there is absolutely no chance of your kids being involved in violence. (and thus, a fool)."

    Well, seeing as I`m gay, I`d say that yes, there is absolutely no chance of my kids being involved in violence. :P

    @McGovern1981

    "Following your logic you should live in a bubble for "saftey." Everything around you is a threat to your life so eat everything with your hands and round off all sharp corners. The rest of us will choose to live an actual life."

    You`re the one wanting a lethal weapon to defend yourself against the extremely unlikely possibility of being under mortal threat from another person. Who should be asking for that bubble? You sound like the one living in fear, not me.

    *I* am the one badass enough not to be afraid to go unarmed. *You* are the one so afraid of his fellow man that you feel you need to arm yourself.
  129. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm
    @Musuko42

    Not really I enjoy target shooting. It`s just another benafit. I don`t live in fear of objects deemed what your people consider unsutible for the common man along with certain types of knifes LOL!
  130. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm
    benefits*
  131. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 2:10 pm
    Musuko42-"the extremely unlikely possibility of being under mortal threat"

    Yes, because NObody ever gets assaulted, robbed, molested raped or threatened.

    Are there unicorns in your world, too?
  132. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 2:29 pm
    @MeGrendel

    "Yes, because NObody ever gets assaulted, robbed, molested raped or threatened."

    I didn`t say that, and you know it. I said the likelihood of those things happening is very low (a 0.001015309% chance of being murdered per year in my country, for example). If you`re so afraid of something that`s so unlikely to happen to you, then you need some help undersanding probability, and I also have some lottery tickets to sell to you.

    Incidentally, take robbery off your list of reasons to own a lethal weapon. Seriously. Using a lethal weapon to defend mere property is messed up.

    @McGovern1981

    "Not really I enjoy target shooting."

    Nobody here is debating recreational gun use. The debate is about using them against other people.

    You could still shoot your targets for sport and have restrictions that prevent you or others from shooting people.
  133. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 3:39 pm
    Musuko42-"he likelihood of those things happening is very low"

    Actualy, they are not low at all. Dividing murders into population does not give you an accurate possibility, it`s not a random lottery (you suck at statistics, btw). It`s also dependent on where you live, your age, your background, your race, what your doing at the time and you economic situation, among others.

    YOU can pretend it`s `unlikely`, but I know exactly how many times my property has been robbed and how many times people have attempted to mug me.

    Musuko42-"take robbery off your list of reasons to own a lethal weapon"

    Sorry, no. Some idiots tend to value their life less than other peoples belongings. That`s their decision to make.

    Burglers and violent criminals around here run a VERY HIGH chance of getting shot in the act. That`s why, statistically, YOU are four times more likley to be a victim of violent crime that an average person in the US.
  134. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    33145 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 4:47 pm
    then it must also make it easier for you to be a threat to yourself,
    @Musuko42: I provide facts, you repeat opinion?
    Facts > Opinions.

    @Markust: It`s part of a "weapon" and it`s illegal. Others faced charges and went to court, but NOT Gregory! Liberals looking out for other liberals, that`s a "two-tiered" legal system, NOT a good thing.
    "One law for me, another law for you." is NOT in the US Constitution.

    A gun is a gun! WHO CARES who designed it! It`s not a fashion show, ffs!
    If it`s NOT multi-shot capable? It`s NOT an "assault weapon" ok? AR-15 =/= M-16
    Facts > Opinions
  135. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    6274 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 5:35 pm

  136. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:33 pm
    @musuko
    1: i am, i´ve taken part in protests against cuts, hiring private companies to replace proper police and so on, as well as signed petitions and taken part in votes on the matters. the government gives no drat however and makes decisions that are very disconnected from the wishes of the populace. the same as most EU governments.
    2:i have my guns for sporting purposes primarily, and as i stated, they`re locked in a cabinet separate from their ammunition as i´m someone who follows the laws and has common sense. my point was police response times in a first world nations capital city. let alone in distant areas in spread out countries like the united states.
    3: i walked out of my bathroom after a shower to finish up and go about my day, and got the surprise of my lock being busted open. i keep my old survival knife from my former line of work as a security officer in africa on my desk as a memory, where my phone also is typically, so that`s what i
  137. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 6:54 pm
    *had time to grab. if i had the time to go calmly unlock a safe to get the key for the other safe, take my .357 out of it`s bag, grab the next key to go unlock the ammo safe and spend time loading the gun, then that would have been pretty stupid thieves or just a drunk neighbor who got the wrong door. the point still remains the police are not a magic spell.
    the secondary point is the best defense is having a clue that these things CAN happen regardless what objects are legal or illegal and what words are on a paper somewhere. not senselessly writing down more laws or bans and allow fear or denial to cloud up your judgement of events or incidents.
    eg: i got a noisy as hell burglar alarm that i tested out, lot of open doors a minute later and curious people wondering wtf. i also paid for a more sturdy lock. protesting ban all guns is like me blaming the crowbar and not the idiots who used it to break my door open.
  138. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 8:16 pm
    @MeGrendel-

    the cartoon is exactly what I`ve been trying to say! Thank you!
  139. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10742 posts
    January 17, 2013 at 9:09 pm
    I`ve learned my state of Texas is rife with civil forfeiture abuses, which ironically in part means that property is safer in California. Why should we trust only the police with such firepower in such circumstances?
  140. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 12:09 am
    Musuko just mad...can`t have guns in the UK. You have know idea how much fun you are missing out on. You should come over here and you and I will go shooting. I will teach you how to hunt. We will get the best bbq in the worst part of town and never have to worry about being mugged.
  141. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 12:13 am
    @MeGrendel

    "YOU can pretend it`s `unlikely`, but I know exactly how many times my property has been robbed and how many times people have attempted to mug me."

    I am 28, and I have never been mugged, and the only robbery I have been a victim of is when someone stole my motorcycle from my driveway whilst I was fast asleep.

    So okay, perhaps you do need a gun if there`s so much crime where you are...but that really is sad.
  142. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 12:14 am
    @abrxax

    "Musuko just mad...can`t have guns in the UK."

    Can`t have, don`t need, don`t want.

    When was the last time you got mad about not having something you can`t have, don`t need and don`t want?

    What I *am* mad about is the country that leads the world descending further into crazy and taking a lot of my friends with it.
  143. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 12:18 am
    @VikingGuy

    I respect your answers, all very reasonable.

    Why were these people smashing into your place to do you harm and wreck your home? Was it just a random thing, or were they after you?

    @MeGrendel

    Regarding your cartoon, the people who have been committing these school shootings look more like the guy on the left than the guy on the right.

    There is no "species" divide between citizen and criminal. Everyone is the first one right up until the first crime. Adam wasn`t a criminal until that day.
  144. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 5:06 am
    Timothy McVeigh aka Oklahoma city bomber = killed 168 people and injured over 800 (There was daycare in the bottom floor the the building.)
    Ted Kaczynski aka unabomber = killed 3 injured 23
    Bruce Edwards Ivins, Anthrax mailer = killed 5 infected 17
    Eric Robert Rudolph, Centennial Olympic Park bombing = killed 2 injured 111
    Andrew Kehoe, Bath School disaster = killed 45 (38 students 7 adults)
    Andrew Joseph Stack III, Austin IRS attack = killed 1 multiple injuries
    Paul Kenneth Keller, arsonist = set 44 fires, killed 3 +$30million in property damages.
    Julio González, set a night club on fire = killed 87

    So. Taking away guns will do nothing except let the criminals run wild and do what ever they want, to who ever they want, whenever they want.
    We need to address the issues within our society that are causing these incidents. Then and only then will we be able to solve the problem.
  145. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 6:22 am
    @abrxax

    "We need to address the issues within our society that are causing these incidents."

    Correct.

    So how about we look at your people`s tendency to turn to violence altogether too quickly?

    Your home might get robbed? You think to get a gun...rather than invest in stronger locks, alarms, cameras and fight for a more effective police force.

    Your government might get oppressive? You think to get a gun...rather than lobby and protest and educate to get better results at the ballot.

    So it`s unsurprising that when you have mentally ill and/or angry people...they get hold of a weapon and turn straight to violence.

    Something. Is. Wrong. With. America.

    And in my opinion, a part of it is how acceptable you all seem to think it is for violence and the tools of violence to be a readily-available and acceptable tool for dealing with normal life.
  146. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 6:58 am
    Something. Is. Wrong. With. America.


    You support a royal family and there`s been an increasing amount of roits in N. Ireland but ya keep your head in the sand.

  147. Profile photo of abrxax
    abrxax Male 18-29
    74 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 7:27 am
    Well the world can thank the brits for carving up the middle east and Africa to propagate continuous war, using small pox to kill the native Americans and generally being sorry asses that stole all their gold that backs their currency.
    So don`t sit their in your welfare state and tell us how to run our country. You tried that once. We kicked you out.
  148. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 7:37 am
    (Damn it!!) **riots**
  149. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 7:45 am
    Except megrendel`s cartoon has nothing to do with this conversation. Most of the executive orders are meant to keep that criminal from getting that gun, and the law abiding citizen gets to keep those guns.
  150. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:19 am
    @ musuko
    thanks, everyone has a right to their opinion but simply dislike being binned in with the loonies who go on rampages just over what hobbies i have, too many people can`t see beyond their own petty interests or self centered ideas of what drove an event to happen. puts the blame and punishment on the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
    and mostly just to steal and damage what they couldn`t steal and possibly try and rough me up, and it was targeted at me, long story.
  151. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:22 am
    @FoolsPrussia

    Like Eric Holder??? If that were you or me where would we be now?
  152. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:32 am
    also yes, its the issues in society that need to be addressed and i agree that a gun isn`t the best way to go about it. it`s more of a last resort or fallback option should things really get out of hand.

    also the whole nobody "needs" this and nobody "needs" that. you also do not require a computer, or the internet, or electricity, or a car, or this or that. yet you have it anyways because you want to. the AR-15s popularity in the united states is to do with a different variation of it being used by the US military. not to mention, it`s a US product and therefore quite common there, the same way Saiga brand weapons are common in russia, or HK in germany, or CZ in the czech republic.
    also the debate on "assault" weapons is a media term and quite a stupid one. assaults in a military sense date back to ancient history. one could argue a bronze sword is an assault weapon as the greeks assaulted troy using them. research things for yourselves instea
  153. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:38 am
    and let`s face it, there`s something wrong with western society, and it isn`t the guns. lot of poverty popping up, lot of unrest, lot of corruption, lot of people leading pooty unhappy lives looking where to put the blame. hyping up more fear, more hatred and more petty conflicts regardless if it`s about race, religion, abortion, guns, video games, or whatever else is certainly not a way to resolve it.
  154. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:39 am
    @McGovern1981

    "You support a royal family and there`s been an increasing amount of roits in N. Ireland but ya keep your head in the sand."

    The royal family brings us a net profit via tourism. If anything, they support us.

    Northern Ireland is tamer than most of your cities. :P
  155. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:45 am
    @VikingGuy

    "thanks, everyone has a right to their opinion but simply dislike being binned in with the loonies who go on rampages just over what hobbies i have"

    I`ve no issue with guns as a hobby. There`s a gun range near my work, and I`m actually tempted to join up, because it looks fun.

    Guns as a defence tool, however, I disagree with.

    "and mostly just to steal and damage what they couldn`t steal and possibly try and rough me up, and it was targeted at me, long story."

    Would you agree that the best way you could have stayed safe was to avoid whatever actions/associations led to them targetting you, rather than need to arm yourself to deal with them when they do?

    Kinda like Canada vs America when it comes to foreign policy. America needs its big military because it`s made a lot of enemies. Canada has gone for the far safer and far cheaper approach of not making enemies in the first place...because after all, who`
  156. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:53 am
    @VikingGuy

    "and let`s face it, there`s something wrong with western society"

    Correct. I`d even go so far as to say that many of our societies are displaying signs of collective mental illness.

    While finding and implementing a cure should be the main focus, don`t we also keep weapons away from the mentally ill for safety reasons?

    Yes, freedom says you can have weapons in America, but doesn`t freedom come with responsibilities, and don`t horrible occurances like the Sandy Hook shootings suggest that too many people aren`t being responsible with that freedom?

    Where is the tipping point, where the majority decide that there are too many people being irresponsible with that particular freedom for it to be worthwhile? Is it just a numbers game?

    After all, you`re not free to take hard drugs are you? Nor are you free to own a nuclear weapon. Freedom DOES come with limits sometimes.
  157. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 8:58 am
    The royal family brings us a net profit via tourism. If anything, they support us.

    According to the royal family and you buy that?



    That applies to more than Como it seems.
  158. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:01 am
    i see them having a place as a tool for defense, i carry my revolver as well as a rifle when hunting as an angry boar isn`t something i feel like dealing with with a clumsy long gun in the forest or anywhere else tight. for home defense it`s sort of silly for a few reasons though. one being people forget guns are loud, fire your shotgun indoors and you´ll have the same ring in your ears i do after, it does not go away, not fun. also walls aren`t indestructable barriers, most in houses or apartments are thin and accidentally killing your neighbor isn`t going to work out well. i can see keeping a small .22 or .25 for defense if you really feel a need for it, but firearms instruction on how, when and where it`s okay to apply it`s use is something i agree with.
  159. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:06 am
    @McGovern1981

    "According to the royal family and you buy that?"

    Erm, no. According to the Office for National Statistics...which I`m pretty safe in assuming is not run by Queen Lizzy.
  160. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:10 am
    also was my ex wifes family that broke in in that incident, as apparently they seemed to not understand the german laws on what i owned before the marriage being mine after it as well, or on her being unregistered here having a meaning. as i said, long story, but in any case, yes, getting married, piss poor idea. don`t do it.

    also yes, society is getting more drated up, but i wouldn`t blame freedom for it, that tends to end up in a dangerous mess known of as dictatorship, germany had it`s fun with that. keeping weapons away isn`t possible as we know due to illegal imports, so on, but encouraging safe handling and education can make a difference.
    and hard drugs are all over our streets in spite of those laws, their legality doesn`t end their presence at all. i´m more for pursuing the dealer, not the user. nuclear weapons, the world`s greatest madmen already have full control over those nightmares.
  161. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:15 am
    @VikingGuy

    No argument when it comes to defence against wild animals, nor for hunting. Not personally my cup of tea, but it`s not something I`d complain against.

    For home defence, however, your points are exactly on the money.

    And if those who are avid gun supporters are so concerned about home defence, then they`d be willing to open their wallets to pay to substantially strengthen their police force, so there wouldn`t be so many criminals for them to defend against in the first place.

    But we know that`s not really what they want. What they really want is the macho fantasy of blowing someone away.
  162. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:16 am
    and horrible events like sandy hook pale next to some of the atrocities i saw that eventually lead to me leaving my old job. i can say it wasn`t the guns causing it, it was just blind hatred and misguided blame exploited by a few charismatic people to further their own gains. sandy hook and other incidents before it are similar in some ways, pent up hatred, want for vengeance, or just a last desperate act for some reason or another. again, it`s like blaming the crowbar instead of looking at what made them go use it in that manner and attempting to see what we can do on a community level to prevent it before it even pops into their mind. no solution has a 100% chance success rate, but stepping on rights or binning everyone of a certain interest together is more likely to further resentment.
  163. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:20 am
    @VikingGuy

    "also was my ex wifes family"

    Oooh dear, that`s a whole other heap of trouble.
    I`d suggest joining my team, but that`s no real benefit. We just have a different brand of crazy on this side of the fence.

    "and hard drugs are all over our streets in spite of those laws, their legality doesn`t end their presence at all"

    No law is 100% enforcable, but that`s no reason not to enforce it as much as possible.

    Guns are pretty rare in the UK. I know we`re an island and that makes smuggling things in a lot harder. But surely it`s not impossible for countries with land borders.

    Americans talk about banning guns being possible because of their vast unsecured border allowing illegal guns to be brought in...well, they`ve identified the problem, haven`t they? It`s not a fatal flaw. There`s no reason they couldn`t get the border secure if they genuinely wanted to.
  164. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:21 am
    oh, i agree, it`s people who feel some sort of need for it due to some background fear, but it`s the same reason driving others to take it away, background fears. the problem is it ends up an obsession for some, the same way football or some silly ex boyfriend/girlfriend might for others.
    that`s why i say a more realistic approach to education and responsibility is more productive. if we ban it it ends up something of a flag for idiot rebellious people who just have no clue what it even is in many ways, and the ones who already own it go stockpiling. if it`s outlined realistically, then some of those people might see sense and go about a better method of defense and keep the big guns for the range or outdoors.
  165. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:22 am
    @VikingGuy

    Oh I`m not blaming the gun or the crowbar: I`m blaming whatever it is in the person that drove them to use those items.

    But while we get to the bottom of that cause, we can mitigate the damage by keeping the gun or crowbar away from them.
  166. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:26 am
    not my thing, but each to their own. i went and settled for just a normal girlfriend, no ties or obligations. learned the evils of that.

    and securing borders is a nightmare unless you end up in a state like east germany used to be, which wasn`t exactly grand, though the west had plenty of dratups also. there`s plenty of wilderness around that people can simply march over or drive over and checkpoints can`t monitor every passing vehicle or search it.
    cigarette smuggling being a great example, people just load up cars with them and hope to not get stopped at the border and sell them for profit here, or they just go camping or whatever near the border, walk over and buy a load, walk back over uncontested and that`s that.
  167. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:27 am
    @VikingGuy

    "oh, i agree, it`s people who feel some sort of need for it due to some background fear, but it`s the same reason driving others to take it away, background fears."

    The signs do seem to point towards people being irrationally afraid, and that`s leading them to arm themselves in defence.

    So what is it in American culture (and, to a lesser extent, our cultures) that is making them so afraid of "the criminal other"?

    *takes a look at American news reporting, and at what their politicians say*

    Oh yeah.

    I mean...in this country at least, the statistics show that you`re nearly 9 times more likely to kill yourself than someone else is to kill you. Yet the fear is of other people, and not ourselves?
  168. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:29 am
    @VikingGuy

    Surely borders can be secured without turning things into a totalitarian nightmare.

    "checkpoints can`t monitor every passing vehicle or search it."

    They can if you spend enough to do that. It doesn`t sound impossible to me. Expensive as all hell, yes, but not impossible.

    The wilderness is harder, sure. But technology is a pretty grand thing. I would imagine you can do a whole lot of monitoring with all sorts of methods.

    Would there be quite so much cigarette smuggling if people knew that the country`s government had spent a LOT of money and made it policy that every single vehicle gets a search at the border?
  169. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:29 am
    yup, background checks and police record check, it`s fully reasonable. i wouldn`t sell a weapon to someone with a criminal background either, or to some random junkie or someone with a history of mental illness. but people fall through the cracks or get it by other means anyways, in the end it`s just a irreparable flaw in any system.
  170. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:33 am
    @VikingGuy

    "but people fall through the cracks or get it by other means anyways, in the end it`s just a irreparable flaw in any system."

    Not contesting that. But there`s no reason not to make the cracks as tight as we can.

    People still crash cars, but we don`t abolish the driving test because of that. If lots of people were crashing, we`d put serious thought into making the test tougher.

    The same thinking is going on regarding guns in America right now. And rightfully so.
  171. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:39 am
    american news, media and politics, exactly. too much flag waving in all it`s senses.

    and yes, it`s possible, but car searches take time, i had some training in that and can say you either do a quick search and miss everything, or practically take apart the car and end up with a 10km chain of traffic and loads of unhappy people, which in turn leads to more protests, more whining, plus cost overruns, political debates that go nowhere and take years, so on. it basically ends up turning everything into american airports. yuck.
    also our politicians are too busy blasting all our cash on beating dead horses and trying to unruin other countries that they themselves helped economically ruin, i`d rather it goes into fixing the busted social issues and poverty, not to mention just competant guards to keep people from getting beaten up in the subways and so on constantly. the sort of stuff we got rid of previously.
  172. Profile photo of VikingGuy
    VikingGuy Male 18-29
    2160 posts
    January 18, 2013 at 9:47 am
    yup, nothing wrong with thinking how we educate people on a matter and generally can improve as a whole, but a lot of shouting going on without thought in it is going around also. my arguments where more aimed at that since emotional overreaction based on what the TV and paper is flashing doesn`t lead to the best lines of thinking, or any worthwhile solutions.

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