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Date: 01/03/13 11:30 AM

84 Responses to Arizona Girl Takes Facebook Photos With Gun

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18502 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:12 am
    Link: Arizona Girl Takes Facebook Photos With Gun - Accidentally kills her brother, who she`s posing with, on accident.
  2. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36201 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:41 am

    Sometimes and accident is just an accident.
    They don`t always have to put someone in jail.
    But it should be a very easy win for the prosecutor so I`m sure they will charge the sister. It`s not about justice, it`s about his win/loss ratio for his next election.
  3. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7707 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:42 am
    Hey, leave her alone, it`s her right as an American to blast anyone she wants to death.
  4. Profile photo of MacGuffin
    MacGuffin Female 30-39
    2602 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:44 am
    How awful. It`s *whom* she`s posing with, not who.

    But seriously, a representative of the NRA will no doubt be along in a minute to explain how this exact type of incident is actually statistically fifteen times more likely to happen in states that don`t allow gun ownership or Facebook.
  5. Profile photo of Kaagan
    Kaagan Male 18-29
    1596 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:48 am
    what no fb pics?
  6. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4345 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:49 am
    it`s "by accicdent" for gods sake. that really drives me nuts. plus, thats 2 less idiots in the world :)
  7. Profile photo of ImNoGod
    ImNoGod Male 18-29
    1149 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:57 am
    This is absolutely awful. I`m a huge supporter of guns and safe gun handling practices and I think that she should be facing a manslaughter charge. People should be held accountable for there actions, and this is inexcusable.
  8. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:58 am
    OMGZ WE NEEDZ MOAR CONTROLZ CAUSE DA GUNZ MADE HER DOEZ IT DOEZ ASSUALTZ PIZTOLZ!!! I`m sure it was hers leaglly notice they like to leave thoes details out....
  9. Profile photo of elderban
    elderban Male 30-39
    390 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:59 am
    Normally the news wouldn`t cover a story like this (shooting in a low-income neighborhood), but in light of the CT shooting, they`ll run every story involving shootings because it`s a hot-button issue right now. Like the DA does it for his political posturing, the news only runs the stories for ratings.
  10. Profile photo of botfly
    botfly Male 50-59
    616 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:15 pm
    Would you feel better if she had run him over or pushed him out a window?
  11. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17515 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:22 pm
    Demand action now, Ban Facebook!
  12. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3283 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:22 pm
    natural selection
  13. Profile photo of Bakcagain21
    Bakcagain21 Male 18-29
    560 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:41 pm
    Prosecution only goes if it`s in public interest do to do. Is it in public interest probably if she`d been drinking... Don`t use firearms after some drinks or you can`t claim it was an accident you inhibited your own control. If no alcohol no prosecution.
  14. Profile photo of dethkt66
    dethkt66 Male 50-59
    49 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:46 pm
    OMGZ WE NEED MOAR GUNZ COS IF THAT GUY HAD A GUNZ HE CUDDA SHOT BAK N DEFENDED HIZSELF.
  15. Profile photo of McThstlpnts
    McThstlpnts Female 18-29
    1540 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 12:56 pm
    Rule #1: Guns are not toys.(especially when drinking)
    Rule #2: Don`t point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them.

    Seems like common sense...but apparently not.

  16. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:10 pm
    If only the brother had been armed, he could have defended himself. MORE GUNS is the only solution to gun violence! *facepalm*

    On a side note, what a cute reporter!!

    @McGovern1981: Please, PLEASE stop with the infantile "lolcat" typing. It is not cute, it is not funny, it is not endearing... and it really makes you seem even more immature than usual.
  17. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:19 pm
    @c0ckette

    NOEZ!!

  18. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:20 pm
    19 and drunk too you going to try to push all the blame on that too??? Oh I know you could try banning that again....
  19. Profile photo of sparki1980
    sparki1980 Male 30-39
    329 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:22 pm
    Cute reporter.. blinks a bit too much tho.
  20. Profile photo of sunday_scour
    sunday_scour Male 18-29
    283 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:32 pm
    Agreed. Reporter is cute.
  21. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 1:52 pm
    Well, statistically speaking you`re at more danger of this regardless of storage method of you have one in the home.

    They don`t always have to put someone in jail.
    In cases like this they most certainly do. Laws are laws.
  22. Profile photo of banur
    banur Male 18-29
    250 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:00 pm
    Rule #1: Guns are not toys.(especially when drinking)
    Rule #2: Don`t point a gun at someone unless you intend to shoot them.

    Rule #3: If you point a gun at someone, expect to be shot at.
  23. Profile photo of 8BitHero
    8BitHero Male 18-29
    5414 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:10 pm
    Americans tell me that if we take away guns only criminals will have access to them. Well at least only they will have them and not morons like this.
  24. Profile photo of lungcancerz
    lungcancerz Male 30-39
    55 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:13 pm
    1: people do stupid things when drunk. ban alcohol or any mind altering substance.(sarcasm)
    2: obviously lack of gun saftey education. on both parts.
    3: this really is an immigration issue. if we had stricter immigration laws and large signs at the border saying "no Mexicans or similarly colored individuals zone" then maybe he would have died in Mexico and nobody here would give a crap.
  25. Profile photo of broizfam
    broizfam Male 60-69
    4756 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    @ 8BitHero,
    I suppose I could argue your point...but you`re right!
  26. Profile photo of Zed68
    Zed68 Male 40-49
    1015 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:17 pm
    Her brother should have had a gun too...
  27. Profile photo of stevecall
    stevecall Male 18-29
    19 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:21 pm
    before I saw the bank draft which had said $9912, I didnt believe that...my... father in law realey receiving money parttime on their apple laptop.. there uncle has been doing this for less than 16 months and a short time ago paid for the dept on there house and purchased a top of the range Ford Focus. read more at,.... CLICK HERE
  28. Profile photo of jerdboy
    jerdboy Male 18-29
    130 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 2:39 pm
    When will you learn, America?
  29. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 3:11 pm
    Europeans seem to think this was legal in the first place ROFL!!!
  30. Profile photo of shaustin
    shaustin Male 18-29
    143 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 3:11 pm
    @Zed68 Hahahahaha amazing comment
  31. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1847 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 3:16 pm
    Arizona girl takes facebook photos with gun.

    Well there`s your problem in a nut shell. She should have used a camera. The right tool for the job and all that.
  32. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 3:37 pm
    @DromEd

    LOL!
  33. Profile photo of N70
    N70 Female 18-29
    32 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 4:08 pm
    See? Stupid people and psychopaths shouldn`t own guns. All I`m seeing is irresponsible people get killed or kill others with firearms.
  34. Profile photo of freddyferret
    freddyferret Male 40-49
    11742 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 4:10 pm
    But guns are completely safe, and everyone should own several.
  35. Profile photo of NOCASH
    NOCASH Male 18-29
    423 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 4:12 pm
    "Europeans seem to think this was legal in the first place ROFL!!!"

    Ever wonder why some people have this skewed misconception about the USA Mcgovern?
  36. Profile photo of Shelworth
    Shelworth Male 50-59
    384 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 4:23 pm
    I don`t want to sound like a broken record but a gun can`t do anything stupid without an idiot to help it.
  37. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 5:07 pm
  38. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 5:14 pm
    Okay parents as much as I support your gun rights, you REALLY need to keep your guns locked up when you`re not using them.
  39. Profile photo of YugureKage
    YugureKage Female 18-29
    1205 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 5:17 pm
    "See? Stupid people and psychopaths shouldn`t own guns. All I`m seeing is irresponsible people get killed or kill others with firearms." I agree, so how do we keep idiots and psychopaths from obtaining said firearms?
  40. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 5:43 pm
    Guns must be stored safely - handguns more so - to be legal in Canada. It eliminates the American option of a .357 in the nightstand to take care of burglars, but it`s still a pretty good idea that really cuts down on this kind of stupidity.
  41. Profile photo of whodat6484
    whodat6484 Male 30-39
    3907 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 6:03 pm
    That`s why you keep the gun unloaded and locked up in one place while the ammo is also locked up, preferably in a different spot.
  42. Profile photo of WhoSaidWhat
    WhoSaidWhat Male 30-39
    261 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 6:53 pm
    The problem with that idea is that an unloaded gun is pretty well useless. What are you going to do when someone breaks in on you in the middle of the night, ask them to "wait just a minute, while I unlock my gun, and load it"? I think not. My .40 is laying on my night stand, with a full clip, one in the chamber, and the safety on. My kids have been properly taught about gun safety, and know better than to mess with it. All I got to do is shuck the holster, flip the safety off, and blow someone`s brains out through the back of their skull when they break in on me. Dead men tell no tales, and yes, before someone asks, I`ll sleep just fine afterwards.
  43. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 7:24 pm
    And the problem with THAT idea is most every kid who accidentally shoots someone with a family gun was "properly taught about gun safety, and knw better than to mess with it." But kids ALWAYS do what they`re told, right?
  44. Profile photo of Nerd_Rage
    Nerd_Rage Male 18-29
    425 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 7:55 pm
    Any self-respecting gun owner has a gun-safe. This kid`s parents were idiots. Did you guys even flinch about the alcohol thing? i think that`s worse than the gun thing.
  45. Profile photo of ozcybergod
    ozcybergod Male 40-49
    25 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 8:45 pm
    Yet another reason to remove some guns eh? US&A . . .
  46. Profile photo of SilverThread
    SilverThread Male 30-39
    3435 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 9:58 pm
    Meanwhile in the Same State a gun is used by a man to protect his life and the lives of his family from a Goddamn Burglar.

    Of course you won`t hear about that because it isn`t a tragedy and won`t contribute to the volatility of the national gun control witch hunt.
  47. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    January 3, 2013 at 11:48 pm
    How many more senseless deaths must there be before we ban Facebook?
  48. Profile photo of securitywyrm
    securitywyrm Male 18-29
    89 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:19 am
    Folks forget that the news is not a public service, it is a business. To that business, you are not the customer. The customers are the people who purchase advertising on the news.
    People buy more products when they`re scared.
    Thus, it is in the interest of the news organizations to ensure you are scared, because then you`ll buy more from their advertisers.
  49. Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13602 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:15 am
    As Always twats with guns make the news,
    As SilverThread said good news don`t make money,
    If media blanked gun/knife etc killers.
    it may stem the slaughter. but hell, that aint gonna happen
  50. Profile photo of SnoopyBG
    SnoopyBG Male 18-29
    653 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:15 am
    MORE GUNS FOR KIDS!!!!
  51. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7707 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 4:21 am
    @elderban, Did you even think before you posted that comment? Clearly, according to you, there is that much death and destruction from guns that it doesn`t warrant a mention.
    Let`s see if I can give you Americans a clue: I-F Y-O-U D-O-N-T H-A-V-E G-U-N-S Y-O-U C-A-N-N-O-T S-H-O-O-T A-N-Y-O-N-E A-C-C-I-D-E-N-T-L-Y O-R O-T-H-E-R-W-I-S-E.
  52. Profile photo of PirateWillis
    PirateWillis Male 18-29
    143 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 5:06 am
    Darwin Awards Candidate!
  53. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 6:59 am
    @drawman

    @elderban, Did you even think before you posted that comment? Clearly, according to you, there is that much death and destruction from guns that it doesn`t warrant a mention.
    There are 851 accidental deaths from firearm misuse in the US each year (CDC 2011). This means that there are roughly 2.3 such instances a day.

    Why then, if this is news, are we only hearing about cases now? I think the answer is obvious. Perhaps it is you who should think before commenting?
  54. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 7:48 am
    The UK has no place to talk it healthcare system kills more then US citizens with guns. Not talking about natural death outright neglect which is what happens when government runs things.
  55. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 9:03 am
    Look McGovern I can find facts as well

    You must be so proud of your country.
  56. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 9:17 am
    You must be so proud of your country.
    Well I certainly am. I look around and see all of the tyrannical rules citizens of other countries must abide by and pity them. For instance, citizens of Australia and the UK cannot defend themselves from natural physical disadvantages. Another example: people of Sweden can only give their children names from a government registry.

    Yet, because many people in these countries were not instilled with the spirit of freedom, they do not understand that they live under tyranny. They accept it as the norm, and consider the concepts of freedom and liberty to be foreign and unjust.

    So yes, I am proud of my country.
  57. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 10:17 am
    @HumanAction your craziness has intrigued me, exactly what "natural physical disadvantages" are you going on about?

    Also please spend even just a few minutes actually researching the reasons behind things (such as the Swedish name laws) before you start using them in an argument such as everywhere that is not America is under tyrannical rule.
  58. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 10:53 am
    exactly what "natural physical disadvantages" are you going on about?
    For instance, you can be attacked by multiple attackers, thus resulting in a natural, life-threatening disadvantage. A high-level MMA fighter might assault you with intent to kill you - another natural disadvantage. Yet another, the average man could easily dispatch the average women without using a weapon if he so desired.

    Now, these are natural disadvantages. The disadvantaged individual has no natural means to "level the playing field", if you will. Now imagine that both parties had firearms; the field is closer to level now.

    Therefore, allowing firearms to be owned and carried serves to benefit the naturally disadvantaged more than anyone else. I don`t understand why everyone seems to be "against the little man".
  59. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 10:58 am
    Also please spend even just a few minutes actually researching the reasons behind things (such as the Swedish name laws)
    I did; it is still tyrannical. It is an oppressive rule of the government, quite simply.

    everywhere that is not America is under tyrannical rule.
    I`m not sure where you got confused; perhaps you can show me where I implied this? I`ve never implied that every other place on Earth lives in tyranny and that the US does not.

    There you go again though - jumping to conclusions that are not supported by the statements at hand. Europeans (not all, but a seemingly disproportionately high number) appear to have great difficulty with this.
  60. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:09 pm
    @HumanAction That is a scary and twisted logic you have there, I am seriously worried. Haven`t you ever heard the phrase "Violence will only beget more violence". Even if everybody did had a gun everybody would still have a different ability with it. One gun may be better then another. Sure it may equal the field a bit but if we really want to equal the field then why don’t we get everybody a bullet proof vest as well. It is a stretch but by your logic we should all live in the
    Harrison Bergeron world.

    I only assumed that you hadn`t read about it as it had absolutely no place in the discussion about tyranny. It is a law put in place to protect people just like anti-stalking laws or harassment laws. Would you rather we had no protection laws and everybody just looked out for themselves?
  61. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:10 pm
    Well maybe it was from when you said "because many people in these countries were not instilled with the spirit of freedom, they do not understand that they live under tyranny". I am sorry that we all don`t have the spirit of a bald eagle in our hearts but I know what freedom is and I am very thankful for what I have. However, I don`t need a gun to defend what I have as unlike in the US there is not the danger that every other guy on the street or any robber in my house has a loaded weapon.
  62. Profile photo of r66tramp
    r66tramp Male 40-49
    674 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:23 pm
    Self cleaning oven.
  63. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:28 pm
    That is a scary and twisted logic you have there, I am seriously worried.
    I feel the same way about your beliefs. Now, what have we achieved in this argument by expressing that we disagree for yet another time?

    Even if everybody did had a gun everybody would still have a different ability with it.
    I agree - there are no two people who will have identical skills. However, the point you`ve missed is this: "the field is closer to level now"; the key word is closer. For example, a 300lb linebacker attacking a 120lb female will win. Give them both firearms, and they are closer to being equal. This is another example of you making assumptions...

    bullet proof vest
    ... because it isn`t an equalizer. Would a bulletproof vest deter the 300lb linebacker in the example above? Of course not.



  64. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:32 pm
    It is a stretch but by your logic we should all live in the
    Harrison Bergeron world.
    Not quite... In a Harrison Bergeron world, everyone is forced to be equal by law. This requires the "knocking down" of some people because we cannot improve those with natural disadvantages. In my example, we are "pulling up" people by enabling (<- key word alert) them to be equal.

    Would you rather we had no protection laws and everybody just looked out for themselves?
    Of course not; why would you think that I prefer such a system?

    discussion about tyranny
    So you believe that a government has the moral authority to regulate the names of children, rather than only the parents? Can you defend your claim that this is not tyrannical with some evidence other that "well it just isn`t!"...?
  65. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm
    I am sorry that we all don`t have the spirit of a bald eagle in our hearts
    Nobody has the spirit of a bald eagle in their heart. Perhaps we should stay on topic? (I will be an ass when you say stupid things - fair warning)

    I know what freedom is and I am very thankful for what I have
    Great! I find it to be a shame that you understand freedom yet are so willing to give it up; to each their own.

    However, I don`t need a gun to defend what I have as unlike in the US there is not the danger that every other guy on the street or any robber in my house has a loaded weapon.
    You`re being a bit dramatic, aren`t you? The percentage of people who carry firearms is pathetically low compared to the 50% you estimate. Even so, you must worry about being robbed or burglarized far more frequently than me. Perhaps because you cannot defend yourself?

  66. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    LOL! Europeans have blind faith in giving politicians absolute power. They should take a beter look at history to see where that goes.
  67. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:29 pm
    @HumanAction you take what I say far too literally.

    Isn`t the bald eagle the american symbol for freedom and a free spirit? That is what I was getting at.

    The phase "every other guy" might literally mean 50% but it is not intended like that. However the actually number of adult with a gun isn`t that far of 50%

    I`m a 6` 4" rugby player, I am not worried about defending myself, but I am honestly very happy that if I am ever confronted by somebody I know that they are not going to shot me.
  68. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:32 pm
    aaaaaand McGovern has made the Hitler reference, the thread is now dead. Thanks everybody for playing, better luck next time.
  69. Profile photo of cfwestdotie
    cfwestdotie Male 18-29
    184 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:39 pm
    you are god on accident
  70. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:47 pm
    you take what I say far too literally
    ... and you don`t take what I say quite literally enough. If words and statements are not to be taken literally, then why bother?

    However the actually number of adult with a gun isn`t that far of 50%
    It`s actually probably higher from the research I`ve done. However, that does not mean that everyone is carrying one on them at all times. In fact, the number of non-law enforcement citizens who bear a firearm in the US at any given instant is quite low.

    I`m a 6` 4" rugby player
    ... and I am a 6`2" competing Olympic lifter (Olympic meaning the style of lifts, not that I went to the Olympics...); thus, my promotion of firearms hurts me more than it helps. Even so, it isn`t a point of whether it personally helps me, it is a point of whether or not it is morally right.

  71. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:50 pm
    @thenedman

    Well if that`s all you want to see but Stalin did it, Pol Pot did it, Kim Jong did it`s pretty long list and they all end with genocide.
  72. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:53 pm
    @thenedman

    So, in thinking, here are some hypothetical scenarios that represent the reasoning we`ve each used.

    Situation 1: An innocent man, who otherwise could have saved his own life, is murdered with a knife because firearms are illegal and he is a law-abiding citizen. As long as his death is compensated by the statiscal lessening of homicides by a greater quantity, then this is OK by you - even is those saved were not innocent.

    To me, this is the same as sentencing an innocent man to death. Do you disagree?
  73. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 1:59 pm
    @McGovern I don`t know how but have you seriously just gone in 2 comments from Swedish name registries to genocide?
  74. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm
    @HumanAction yes I do disagree, the gun law makers didn`t put him in that situation to be stabbed. If we lived in a perfect world where people only use guns in self defence to protect themselves from the "not innocent" then I wouldn`t have a problem with them.

    However, that is not how they are used. They are used to threaten and murder thousand of completely innocent people every year.
  75. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:12 pm
    yes I do disagree, the gun law makers didn`t put him in that situation to be stabbed
    OK - fair enough. Let us then use a similar situation abiding by these new rules.

    A man is at a shopping mall where he is brutally, at no fault of his own, by a mass murderer who has illegally obtained a firearm (although they are illegal in your scenario and difficult to come by, it is not impossible). Beyond a doubt, without anti-gun laws, he would have had a firearm and would have been able to thwart the attack. Thus, without the laws, he would have been able to save his own life.

    This is acceptable to you, because, as a society, the total number of gun homicides is decreased in a greater quantity than those sacrificed (such as in this case). Correct?

    I`m sorry, but this is sacrificing an individual for the "common good". It`s social utilitarianism...
  76. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:14 pm
    However, that is not how they are used. They are used to threaten and murder thousand of completely innocent people every year.
    They are also used hundreds of thousands, if not millions (heavily debated number), of times each year in the US to prevent crime. You should do some research into Defensive Gun Uses (DGU).

    Firearms, even in the most conservative of estimates, are used dozens of times more each year to deter crime that to commit crime.
  77. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:50 pm
    @HumanAction In the scenario I get what you are saying that it is good that he stopped the attack but I can never see why as a society having more people die would ever be a good thing. Also it would not have been "without a doubt" that he could have stopped the attack.
    You said it yourself that the number of people that bear arms at any given time it low. So the chance that an untrained civilian stopping what would probably be a much heavier armed attacker is not high.

    True while they may stop crimes happening the majority of the crimes that they stop will be smaller stuff such as robbery 60% of your homicides are done using a gun. For me to have the dramatic decrease in homicides overall is worth an increase in lesser crimes where people can carry on living.

  78. Profile photo of thenedman
    thenedman Male 18-29
    294 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 2:54 pm
    True there will always be situations where a gun may have helped, it is not black and white argument by any means. However, policy makers can not create laws that work for individual situations, they have to use the percentages on a national or maybe state level. It may not be the most compassionate thing in the world, but it is a start to reducing all crime.
  79. Profile photo of NOCASH
    NOCASH Male 18-29
    423 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 3:16 pm
    HumanAction, If the american version of freedom is living in fear of being attacked constantly and having the right to defend themselves with a firearm if such a thing were to actually occur, I like the canadian version much better. I dont fear being attacked by some lunatic, though it is not impossible, when I leave my house. I feel no need to carry a firearm on me in public because the odds are just not there that I will be in some life threatening scenario where there is another person who wishes to kill me. What gets me even more are those of you going on about home invasions and the need to have a firearm readily accessible at your nightstand just in case the absolute unthinkable were to happen and someone managed to get into your house in the dead of night. I find it hard to believe you call yourselves free when you live in such irrational fear constantly. You may say it isn`t fear that drives you to protect yourself, I want to now what discomforts you so much that you need a gun
  80. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 5:04 pm
    Guns are to blame for this as much as Facebook is.
  81. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 5:50 pm
    @thenedman

    My apologies for the delay...

    but I can never see why as a society having more people die would ever be a good thing
    Well it`s not, per se. The question is whether or not the alternative is righteous and sensible.

    Also it would not have been "without a doubt" that he could have stopped the attack.
    It was a hypothetical situation; as such, I had the authority to dictate the "without a doubt" part... The point I was making was that, by outlawing firearms, such situations may occur in which you essentially sacrifice an individual for the "greater good"... When we start justify actions and legislation because of the "greater good", nothing good follows.

    For me to have the dramatic decrease in homicides overall is worth an increase in lesser crimes where people can carry on living.
    A much more dramatic increase in "smaller" crimes...
  82. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 5:54 pm
    @thenedman

    However, policy makers can not create laws that work for individual situations, they have to use the percentages on a national or maybe state level.
    The problem is that they cross into the realm of limiting an individual in a potentially detrimental way, in order to prevent them from doing something they may or may not do. We should be exceptionally wary of such laws that prevent us from doing something (owning a firearm) that does not infringe on the rights of others to prevent us from doing something that we are statistically never likely to do.

    I do think that this comes down to a fundamental philosophy difference. For you, it is OK to sacrifice an individual liberty if it benefits the society to a greater degree. I do not believe it is OK to sacrifice an individual liberty if it does not infringe on the rights of others...
  83. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 5:59 pm
    @NOCASH

    american version of freedom is living in fear of being attacked constantly and having the right to defend themselves with a firearm
    You are being very over-dramatic. I do not worry about such events, as most Americans do not. Statistically, I should be much more worried about being killed in a car accident, lightening strike, etc. than in a mass murder.

    I want to now what discomforts you so much that you need a gun
    Vigilance, not fear... I`m not afraid that someone will break into my house and try to rape my girlfriend in the middle of the night. However, I find it wise to be prepared for such a situation in the unlikely event that it occurs. Even in your Canada, these things happen. As such, you, as an individual, should have the capacity to protect yourself.

    I imagine previous unarmed victims wish they were more prepared.
  84. Profile photo of Magentab0b
    Magentab0b Female 30-39
    1467 posts
    January 4, 2013 at 8:58 pm
    After that first Hitler comment I stopped reading the thread so this, from thenedman, would have been spot on if I would have read it.

    "aaaaaand McGovern has made the Hitler reference, the thread is now dead. Thanks everybody for playing, better luck next time."

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