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Date: 12/04/12 10:27 AM

75 Responses to Understanding The Fiscal Cliff

  1. Profile photo of kitteh9lives
    kitteh9lives Female 70 & Over
    8044 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:20 am
    Link: Understanding The Fiscal Cliff - Robert Reich lays out the Fiscal Cliff. Is this the best way out of this forced showdown in Congress?
  2. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    349 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:44 am
    Before people start spouting nonsense, the following is from the Congressional Budget Office`s July 2012 report (available online). It includes all taxes paid to the federal government:

    Top 1% pay an average tax rate of 28%
    Middle class pay an average tax rate of 14%
    Poorest pay an average rate of 5%

    Commence ad homina and non-sequiturs.
  3. Profile photo of hauswyfe
    hauswyfe Female 30-39
    280 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:53 am
    "Hold your ground" my left foot. Both sides holding their ground is what got us into this mess in the first place! What we need is a real compromise. Reform entitlements and increase taxes on the 1%
  4. Profile photo of Mikeoxsbiggg
    Mikeoxsbiggg Male 30-39
    1502 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:59 am
    I`m sure the Republicans on here will agree with this. lol Good luck with that.
  5. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1925 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 11:36 am
    The number one expenditure in the federal budget are entitlements but Reich says we can`t cut any of that. And you libs say conservatives won`t reach across the isle.

    Guess what. We could cut defense spending by 100 percent and enact the tax increases the left propose and we still couldn`t balance the budget.

    The only way out is to grow the economy.
  6. Profile photo of onoffonoffon
    onoffonoffon Male 30-39
    2348 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 11:59 am
    Still can`t get my head around how people want to give and irresponsible organization more money. Oh btw maybe corporations don`t pay enough taxes? If a corporations can afford a lobbyist maybe they should pay more taxes?
  7. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3889 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 1:03 pm
    I was a little concerned when he said to cut funding to Agribusiness. I`m sure there is some waste that can be cut but it is very important to subsidize farms when needed. Like the ones that are going under because of the drought.
  8. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 1:32 pm
    @AntEconomist I can`t find where in the report your numbers come from and what they really represent. Taxes are very complicated between income tax, payroll tax, etc. so it`s hard to figure out what figures are correct, considering rich people don`t pay payroll taxes like normal people do and there are differences in how much gets taken out for SS and Medicaid at higher income levels.

    At any rate, it`s a fact that upper-income people`s wealth has skyrocketed over the years while the average american`s income hasn`t kept up with inflation. Their flat income, btw, is controlled by their upper-income employers. SO, if anyone is going to be asked to contribute a little more, should it be the people barely getting by, who pump any money they have back into the economy immediately or those who have more money than they really need so they send it to a pile in the Caymans?
  9. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 1:48 pm
    I think the lesson learned is you never CUT taxes because people don`t see a temporary tax cut as a gift. They see the ending of the temporary cut as a punishment. This is a basic tenant of freelancing. Don`t ever give a client a break on your rate for one project because they will never accept your normal rate ever again.
  10. Profile photo of kilroy5555
    kilroy5555 Male 30-39
    496 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 1:54 pm
    Well that about sums up all the Democrat talking points.

    Too bad we can`t replicate the Internet revolution to help bring back the economy to what it was during the Clinton years. Maybe it would help if we brought our spending levels down to Clinton levels it would help too.

    And how about making sure that we work to set up a globally competitive and stable business-friendly environment instead of chasing some vague, undefined concept of "fair" taxation. That will help ensure that corporations reinvest in the United States and ultimately lead to a rise in wages for all. Will the concept that the wealthy aren`t paying enough stop when rates go up to 40%? For my money, we`ll start hearing how 40% isn`t enough before too long... after all tax rates were once 90% for the wealthy.

    While we`re at it, maybe we can also stop printing money, which will help not cause the inflation that the average working person`s wages lag behind.
  11. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    349 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 1:56 pm
    @lauriloo: If you have the report, the figures are in Summary Table 1. Yes taxes are complex. The figures I reported are not. Take the total money each income group paid to the government and divide by each income group`s adjusted gross income.
  12. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:08 pm
    [quote">the years while the average american`s income hasn`t kept up with inflation[/quote">

    84% of people below poverty line have air conditioning
  13. Profile photo of kilroy5555
    kilroy5555 Male 30-39
    496 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:08 pm
    In reality, the concept of "fairness" in taxation as it is being used today is not related in any way to creating a positive economic environment. It is all class warfare demogoguery designed to give Democrats a political edge. The same rhertoric has been used towards exactly this end for more than a century.

    Of course, the real problem is that class warfare works because it sounds so good. After all, it`s about fairness (never mind exactly what that means), and you don`t make as much money as those selfish nasty rich people. And all we`re doing is asking them to pay such a teeny tiny bit more! Well, you know that you can count on the Democrats to be on your side... the GOP are showing their true colors once again siding with the wealthy and against the little guy.
  14. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    Excuse me that should say "78% of poor households"

    fix`d
  15. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:38 pm
    "84% of people below poverty line have air conditioning"

    Wow, air conditioning, what a luxury. Most poor people rent. Are they supposed to sell the landlord`s stuff? When I was laid off from an engineering job for a year, I had a townhouse I couldn`t sell that took $1,000/mo out of my pocket. I had some great stuff that I bought when I still had a job but wasn`t worth trying to sell after I lost a job. So, by appearances I had great stuff but I was basically bankrupt.

    This is what I`m talking about. Notice the difference in slopes between the rich getting richer and the regular people not?
  16. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:40 pm
    Income chart adjusted for inflation
  17. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    349 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:40 pm
    @lauriloo: If you apply the same analysis used to compare incomes to people`s ages, you find the following (I`m not making this up): In 2000, the youngest 20% of Americans were 7.1 years old. By 2010, the youngest 20% of Americans were 6.9 years old. Conclusion: The young got younger.
  18. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:42 pm
    Notice the difference in slopes between the rich getting richer and the regular people not?

    I don`t see a problem here, YOU said that poor peoples` income HASN`T kept up inflation. Yet they can afford more than they could 50 years ago. Additionally, I don`t see any reason to complain about the rich-poor gap when EVERYONES` standard of living is going up.
  19. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:42 pm
    "Take the total money each income group paid to the government and divide by each income group`s adjusted gross income."

    I could take that to mean that the 1% have better deductions and loopholes because the lower you make the divisor in your calculation, the higher your percentage gets.
  20. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:48 pm
    [quote">Income chart adjusted for inflation[/quote">

    US GDP PPP per Capita
  21. Profile photo of AntEconomist
    AntEconomist Male 40-49
    349 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:48 pm
    lauriloo

    "I could take that to mean that the 1% have better deductions and loopholes because the lower you make the divisor in your calculation, the higher your percentage gets."

    You don`t understand the definitions. Loopholes and deductions have no effect on adjusted gross income. They only affect the taxes owed.
  22. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:53 pm
    A better chart
  23. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:55 pm
    So while real income for the lowest rung have remained flat, their ability to purchase goods has increased steadily.
  24. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 2:55 pm
    @Cajun247 So you`re ok that the 1%`s income is increasing WAY faster than anyone else`s? Especially when they probably control the incomes of those people because they are employees? I just talked to a friend of mine who works for a huge company and he told me he hasn`t gotten more than a 1% raise in years yet gets more and more duties heaped on him. Is that what you want when you graduate?

    "Yet they can afford more than they could 50 years ago."

    Most of the things on that list have become basics and have seriously come down in price since they were a luxury. Seriously, a refrigerator? Poor people shouldn`t buy a used XBox at a pawn shop or garage sale to entertain their kids? I`m not saying people don`t buy things they can`t afford but they aren`t buying car elevators.
  25. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    Most of the things on that list have become basics and have seriously come down in price since they were a luxury

    ...and that`s a bad thing WHY?

    Seriously, a refrigerator

    Huh? Don`t people need to keep their food preserved?

    Especially when they probably control the incomes of those people because they are employees?

    Without employees their ability to make money is diminished. On top of which I not buying this notion that the rich are colluding with each other to make the poor poorer, (that is unless they collude with govt to pass more laws to stomp out competition).

    I just talked to a friend of mine who works for a huge company and he told me he hasn`t gotten more than a 1% raise in years yet gets more and more duties heaped on him.

    Anecdotal
  26. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    Is that what you want when you graduate?

    Appeal to fear, if anyone gets richer through mutually voluntary transactions there is no problem. My issue is with cronyism to give them political priviliges to operate a business and add more deductions to the tax code making it even more complicated.
  27. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:16 pm
    Poor people shouldn`t buy a used XBox at a pawn shop or garage sale to entertain their kids?

    How on Earth did you get this idea?

    I`m not saying people don`t buy things they can`t afford but they aren`t buying car elevators.

  28. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:39 pm
    This is parody, right?
    NO ONE can be that STUPID 8 times in a row!
    He`s serious?

    OMG, we`re doomed if THIS is what passes as "liberal thinking" for reals.

    #3 It`s already obvious: Obama WILL raise taxes on the Middle Class. He`s ALREADY done so! But what Dems want is to pin a number on the Repubs, then raise it "less than" that number! Thus claiming THEY cut taxes, while actually raising them
    It`s been done before, the MSM was all too eager to help.
    So "pin a number" can be a completely FAKE number, so long as the Democrat rise is lower, they`ll claim "cuts".

    #4 Won`t solve anything.
    #5 Obama HAS cut 500 BILLION from Medicare! Of course it hasn`t "kicked in" yet, but soon...
    #6 and #7 are mutually INCLUSIVE! You cannot do ONE without also doing THE OTHER.
    #8 This guy is a complete idiot.

    I expect certain Lib-tard IABers to think otherwise...

  29. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:42 pm
    NO ONE can be that STUPID 8 times in a row!

    Either they come from another universe or their name is Robert Reich.
  30. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm
    Top 1% pay an average tax rate of 28%
    Middle class pay an average tax rate of 14%
    Poorest pay an average rate of 5%
    @AntEconomist! Thank goodness a reasonable voice!
    Reich is claiming "effective tax rate" on the rich, but basing that on "theoretical" higer taxes from the 50`s & 60`s.
    He`s showing us a pile of poop, and saying it is cake!
    After Reagan CUT tax rates (and CLOSED many loopholes) revenue actually went UP.
    Raising taxes makes revenues DROP. It`s been proven here in posts, in reality in nations like England & France too.

    Cutting spending is the ONLY way out of this disaster. Obama has had 4 years and has INCREASED spending to record levels.
    Blame Bush? No, Obama added over 600 BILLION to the last Bush Budget in March 2009. This is ALL OBAMA (and the Dems) PERIOD.
  31. Profile photo of Shelworth
    Shelworth Male 50-59
    385 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:44 pm
    I bet JFK is spinning in his grave!
  32. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:49 pm
    your age and life experience are showing

    Yeah because I haven`t been scared 5h17less like you have apparently. Yet here`s 5Cats, in your age group, CANADIAN (not complaining), and agrees with me on economic issues.
  33. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 3:54 pm
    @Cajun247 your age and life experience are showing
    @lauriloo: Your liberal hate-bias is showing!
    "Your facts are wrong because I don`t like YOU."
    Then call him a name: fat-cat, 1%er, capitalist pig, warmonger, conservative... you know, like #OWS!

    This guy is such an idiot, it`s painful. BUT he accurately reflects what Demo-Libs ACTUALLY believe!

    Just cut the military! Just tax the rich!
    But keep the "free money" flowing to the areas I think are OK!

    @kilroy555: Good points! Clinton CUT welfare, which helped a lot!
    Obama thinks people on foodstamps is a GOOD IDEA!

    Revenues haven`t dropped THAT much since (say) 2004, but spending is way, way higher! It`s a spending problem, people, get your heads around the facts!
  34. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:05 pm
    I`m not scared at all. Obama was re-elected :)
  35. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:09 pm
    " Your liberal hate-bias is showing! "

    Actually, I was referring to his offensive cartoon insulting me like a spoiled child.
  36. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:10 pm
    I was referring to his offensive cartoon insulting me like a petulant child.

    I`m sorry if you felt that way, the comment in question was just outright CONFUSING. But please do elaborate.
  37. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:11 pm
    "Yet here`s 5Cats, in your age group, CANADIAN (not complaining), and agrees with me on economic issues."

    I really don`t believe he`s Canadian. Why would a Canadian be so rabid about this?
  38. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:14 pm
    Obama was re-elected

    Well I hope you enjoy 4 more years of the Bush-Obama spending binge. We`ll see how you feel when the all the welfare programs come crashing to the ground. I`m ready to tough that 5h17storm out.

    8-)
  39. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:20 pm
    You seem to think someone having air conditioning means their economic life is peachy and they have no right to complain.

    Not at all, in fact I think you`d be hard-pressed to find any 1%-er whose life is all roses. No one has easy life, I`m simply saying that the bottom rung of society is better off than they were 50 years ago.
    Secondly, they have every right to complain, doesn`t mean that their complaints are of 100% substance.
  40. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:21 pm
    "I`m sorry if you felt that way, the comment in question was just outright CONFUSING. But please do elaborate."

    Romney installed a car elevator in (one of) his homes. His kind can afford car elevators. You seem to think someone having air conditioning means their economic life is peachy and they have no right to complain and don`t need help. That list on that right-wing website was created a long time ago to justify slashing entitlements because apparently they think having air conditioning means you can`t possibly need food stamps or other assistance.
  41. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:29 pm
    @Cajun247 Let`s compare where you and I are coming from perspective-wise. I grew up upper lower class. My dad was a mechanic for the railroad and my mom was a housewife. Right now, I`m about middle class and much of my family is probably lower middle class. How about you?
  42. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:35 pm
    right-wing website

    They`re Objectivist, yet they support "traditional family values" <gag>, I certainly disagree with them on Foreign policy issues (I`m libertarian). This report however focuses purely on economics and even cites data from the Dept of Energy.

    apparently they think having air conditioning means you can`t possibly need food stamps or other assistance

    Reductio ad absurdium, it merely points out the standard of living enjoyed by families living below poverty line, to challenge the perception of poverty. To that end, since when did charity become so marginalized? Dollar for dollar private charity is far more efficient at helping poor people than govt is.
  43. Profile photo of mcboozerilla
    mcboozerilla Male 30-39
    646 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:42 pm
    It amazes me there are people who don`t understand this.
  44. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 4:47 pm
    How about you?

    Middle-class throughout my life, yet my parents are more likely to agree with you on economic issues. I USED to be liberal, I ABSOLUTELY DESPISED Bush for his misguided military misadventures which left thousands of families absent of loved ones, and money wasted. I`m libertarian now and I STILL say his presidency was a hands-down disaster, the Iraq war is still gloriously unjustified. Then Obama (voted for him) came along broke his promises on the healthcare debate, and further compounded the fiscal mess. Then of course I had macroec course at a public university.

    That being said you`re still cherry-picking, many (not most) have built their fortunes starting at poverty. Today poverty is rarely considered a way of life, instead at worst it is a stage.
  45. Profile photo of Fancysucksss
    Fancysucksss Male 18-29
    1048 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 5:31 pm
    Maybe..We should just pull an iceland? You know get an iceland experience up in this country? You know..actually do something then let people get payed loads to get away with doing nothing?
  46. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 6:21 pm

    Boring propaganda.
  47. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 9:49 pm
    @lauriloo: I`m as Canadian as it gets!

    When the "poverty rate" dropped in Manitoba a few years back, they simply "raised the bar" to include more people!

    Consider the "Emapthy" video alongside this one: Liberals "want to help" but of course want OTHERS to pay for it.
    THAT is the reason the USA is broke! Too much spending of "other people`s money"!

    Oh well! It was a nice country while it lasted...

    Here`s Something about "progressive taxes".
    1% of California`s households pay 50% of all state income tax!
    The top 10% of earners pay 80%
    Middle Class earners in Cali pay a higher rate than Millionares in 47 other states do...

    Is THAt fair? BTW: California (super-liberal) is so in debt it`s crazy... NY too...
  48. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:58 pm
    Liberals "want to help" but of course want OTHERS to pay for it.
    ...or as the brilliant American philosopher P.J. O`Rourke so aptly put it, "A liberal is someone who would gladly give you the shirt off of someone else`s back."
  49. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 10:59 pm
    Remember, jobs come first."

    ...so, let`s raise taxes on employers. Yeah, that`s the ticket!

    As an economist, this clown`s a fapping little f***tard, but he actually has the politics about right.

    First, Republicans have absolutely ZERO bargaining power, because Obama doesn`t give a loose dry f*** if we go over the fiscal cliff. In fact, he`s probably hoping we do. He gets tax increases on EVERYBODY, he guts the military, and the media will make sure that the Republicans get blamed for it.

    What the Republicans need to do is let Obama have his way on EVERYTHING, and then wash their hands of it. Make it clear that Obama and the Dems now OWN the economy, and they will be ENTIRELY responsible when (not if) it goes tits up.
  50. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 11:09 pm
    I think the lesson learned is you never CUT taxes because people don`t see a temporary tax cut as a gift.
    That`s because IT ISN`T A GODDAMNED GIFT!!! It`s their money to start with!

    BTW, I decided NOT to rob your house. I figure I could have fenced your stuff for at least $1000. I hope you`re grateful. I`ll be sending you a 1099.
  51. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    December 4, 2012 at 11:27 pm
    Jobs come first, so disregard everything that was said in the first 7 points!
  52. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3489 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 3:00 am
    I`ve been becoming more and more nihilistic every time I hear these kinds of points. Economics is math, you can`t run from it. If you spend more than you produce, you go broke. This guy wants to go over the cliff and take everyone else with him including Europe. This philosophy of equal outcomes instead of equal opportunity, generalized terms like fairness forcing defined quantitative tax hikes, rich people being evil because they have more money than you do, all we need now is some Bolshevists. Honestly, what good are safety-nets when they are tied to the noose around your neck. The slogan, "Everyone should own a home" and causing a housing bubble leading to a world recession, wasn`t enough of a message. Maybe some grapes of wrath is just the medicine we need, sorry rest of world. Lemmings don`t change direction they just reach the cliff.
  53. Profile photo of Modwain
    Modwain Male 40-49
    336 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 3:04 am
    whoohoo lets increase teh polarisation by making this even more a bout democrats and republicans..
    hell yeah, there is no us, there is a we and them..

    lets go one further, suply everyone with guns and lets styop listening to people that dont share our vieuwpoints, but lets not demonize em, just kill em and get rid of their vieuw point all together.


    i know, i know, this is to seriuos to be sarcastic about.. I just love the fact that no one seems to have any answer that isnt based on screwing the other half over. Or even worse, if it seems that someone does, lets make him sound foolish... owell, lets not be social about it.

  54. Profile photo of papajon0s1
    papajon0s1 Male 40-49
    578 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 6:39 am
    We`re screwed no matter what if the libs get their way. WIth the military gutted who think that won`t embolden the radical islamists to attack us? I`ll predict we`re going to see another 9/11 before BO is finally (Thank God!) not our president anymore.
  55. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 7:13 am
    Reductio ad absurdium
    Well, it wasn`t really; it was just sarcasm.

    @5cats: You`re also forgetting that when saint Reagan cut taxes and raised revenue he also skyrocketed the debt. And you think it`s libs who want something without paying for it...

    ...so, let`s raise taxes on employers. Yeah, that`s the ticket!
    Ah, yes, because cutting them has created so many jobs you don`t know what to do with them all.
  56. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 7:21 am
    #6 and #7 are mutually INCLUSIVE! You cannot do ONE without also doing THE OTHER.
    How do you rationalize that one? So you can`t spend money into R&D or education without cutting military spending etc.? Are you saying the only place to get money for education is taking it from the military or corporations?

    That`s because IT ISN`T A GODDAMNED GIFT!!! It`s their money to start with!
    Oh, this again. Social contract, the terms of it aren`t static. Also they didn`t make that money so they`re really only borrowing it. Typical repub attitude: Government doesn`t represent or look after people, it`s always an antagonistic relationship.
  57. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 7:24 am
    What Reich is promoting here, though, isn`t compromise. I don`t exactly agree with all of his points.
  58. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 7:29 am
    His kind can afford car elevators.
    Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the deadly sin, envy.

    At this point, it is clear that your argument has devolved to a state of "well HE can afford it but I can`t so HE`s evil!" Stop trying to "keep up with the Joneses" and your life will become much more rewarding.

    Also, if you are poor, you should not buy an Xbox. If your income can only satisfy your basic needs, then you should only purchase your basic needs. I am almost 24; when I graduated from college (I graduated 3 years ago), I did not enjoy the economic stability I have created since. As such, I bought no furniture, did not take vacations, and bought only the cheapest raw foods I could get. This is not called austerity or hardship, as I still had food, water, clothing, and the necessities; this is called common sense.
  59. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:10 am
    @patchy: Liberals & hippie think all the military does is build tanks and bombers and stuff. But they also fund lots of research, spend TONS on support & supply and employ millions of people.
    "Cut the military" and what gets chopped? Research, then support & supply, then the number of soldiers. (unemployment all around!) idk if the military is "the best" way to fund such research, but I know that 6 & 7 are so tightly linked you cannot cut one without also cutting the other, and vice-versa.

    Yes, Reagan spent too much, it`s true! The situation was desperate, 20% intrest with hyper-inflation = ruin! So the IDEA was to spend, then later PAY IT BACK. Something Bush I and Clinton forgot to do... Bush II had wars to fight, Obama? LOLZ! Well, he`s "redistributing the wealth" isn`t he?

    @HumanAction: You`ve nailed it! Greed & envy = socialism.
  60. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32756 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:20 am
    Raising Taxes And Still Defecit Spending?
    It`s NOT going to change a thing. Deficit spending HAS TO stop! Sooner or later, it will, just like Europe: no one will lend you any more money if they know you`re going to default...

    Obama is all about "redistributing the wealth" eh? From YOU to HIS friends...
  61. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:34 am
    It`s NOT going to change a thing. Deficit spending HAS TO stop!
    Which is why I said Reich isn`t promoting compromise. I`ve always held that tax increases with spending cuts are better than either on their own. As to the military, they do R&D, this is true. However it`s not like they do R&D in every aspect of technology, and I think your assessment of which things get cut first in the military may be incorrect. In any event I disagree that they are mutually inclusive.

    Sooner or later, it will, just like Europe
    Europe is a double-edged sword though, because severe austerity measures have helped to cripple their economies. So promoting austerity isn`t likely the best course of action.
  62. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:51 am
    because severe austerity measures have helped to cripple their economies



    THIS is severe?
  63. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:56 am
    "Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the deadly sin, envy."

    Nope, not envy. An illustration of the ability of rich people to contribute more to the society that has made them so rich. Single mothers are working two or more jobs to feed and house their kids (not to "keep up with the Joneses") yet the GOP thinks asking people who have the money to burn on silly, megadollar luxuries can`t handle a couple more percent in taxes. The taxes they paid during the Clinton years and somehow they were still able to make money hand over fist despite that awful tax burden (/sarcasm). Warren Buffet gets it, why can`t you?
  64. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 9:58 am
    Here`s British treasury`s report on the budget. How are any of these budget cuts "severe"?
  65. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 10:34 am
    Envy - A feeling of discontented or resentful longing aroused by someone else`s possessions, qualities, or luck.

    Romney installed a car elevator in (one of) his homes. His kind can afford car elevators.
    The reference to "his kind" is purposefully negative and shows resent. The cause of your resentment towards this person is the property that he possesses - as inferred from your words.

    Yep, envy.

    Warren Buffet gets it, why can`t you?
    Oh does he, now? Let`s have a hypothetical situation. Let us suggest that some billionaire decides to write a one-billion dollar check out of the blue to the IRS. Do you suppose the IRS would accept it? Surely they would.

    If Warren Buffet "gets it", such as you suppose, why does he not simply write a check? Yet here we are.
  66. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:09 am
    Single mothers are working two or more jobs to feed and house their kids
    Let`s turn your logic upside down with real life experience.

    I was raised by a single mother; she has six children in total. As a nurse, her base salary was nothing spectacular. However, she worked a ton of overtime, and therefore, had a relatively high total income every year.

    Please, explain to me how each dollar she earned by putting forth extra effort should be worth less than someone with the same base salary who only works forty hours a week.

    For additional information, we never accepted any sort of assistance. We didn`t have video game systems or air conditioning either. You`re appeal to sympathy/pity means nothing to me; it does not sway my opinion of right and wrong.
  67. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:27 am
    Wow, HumanAction- you`ve really bought into the GOP talking points. The whole "everyone envies the rich and that`s the only reason we want more from them" is classic. We`re all trying to steal their money, waaaaa.

    When you say "write a check" are you parroting Grover Norquist, Chris Christie or just Fox News in general? The GOP needs to mock Buffet because he puts a huge dent in the notion that taxing rich people a little more (in reality, letting the Bush tax vacation end) will hurt the "job creators". Buffet says tax rates have no bearing on his level of investment in companies. SHOCKING. Funny how we aren`t awash in jobs now while the tax cuts are still here.
  68. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:36 am
    Funny how we aren`t awash in jobs now while the tax cuts are still here.

    Yes because the federal govt wrecked the economy by handing out housing loans to people who couldn`t afford them.
  69. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:41 am
    Buffet says tax rates have no bearing on his level of investment in companies

    Fallacy of composition. May not affect him as much, same can`t be said for Bill Gates. He`s also fooling himself if he believes anyone`s going to invest with a top marginal rate of 90%.
  70. Profile photo of lauriloo
    lauriloo Female 40-49
    1803 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:45 am
    "Please, explain to me how each dollar she earned by putting forth extra effort should be worth less than someone with the same base salary who only works forty hours a week. "

    I don`t value it less. All people`s money is valued the same. I would say the money your mother earned as a nurse took more effort and is more valuable work for society than a guy who sits behind a desk making multi-millions as a CEO but that`s the luck of the draw, I suppose. But what are you really saying when you say the very rich should keep their money, money they don`t need to live a very happy comfortable life, and the lower classes with very little should do with even less to fix the debt? In an ideal situation, everyone would keep what they earned and fully enjoy all the benefits but in the real world, with real problems, people with the ability to help are expected to help in a civilized society. It`s even in the bible.
  71. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:55 am
    Wow, HumanAction- you`ve really bought into the GOP talking points
    I find these statements to be an attempt to dismiss claims that cannot be disproven. Do you not have an intelligent way to disagree with me or are you only limited to random attempts at dismissal?
    are you parroting Grover Norquist, Chris Christie or just Fox News in general?
    Dismissal it is.

    What`s interesting is your belief that simply doubling down on the current failing system will achieve your goals. A progressive tax does not, and will not force the rich to pay more. You see, as long as there are deductions, a bracket, credits, etc, people will hire accountants to (legally) circumvent taxes. Who out there can afford accountants? The wealthy.

    You`re system benefits the wealthy and hurts the poor and middle-class. Only a simplified flat-rate tax makes sense.
  72. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:56 am
    valuable work for society than a guy who sits behind a desk making multi-millions as a CEO

    Yet CEOs run companies that services thousands, if not millions of customers across the nation and the globe. Helping more people than one nurse ever could.

    saying when you say the very rich should keep their money

    Money doesn`t sit on a pile and stays there, even rich people`s money is being loaned out to provide capital for many positive purposes.

    people with the ability to help are expected to help in a civilized society

    Carnegie and Rockefeller donated big time to charity.
    Bill and Melinda gates foundation
    Koch family foundation
    Late Steve Jobs Project Red program
    Ronald McDonald House Charities
    Wendy`s has charities
    Papa John`s made a donation to zoo in Louisville, KY
  73. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10731 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 11:58 am
    It`s even in the bible



    OH DON`T GRUBBLE!
  74. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 12:01 pm
    I don`t value it less.
    Yes you do. You support a bracketed system in which people who make more money pay a higher percentage of the income within that bracket to taxes. This is the definition of a progressive tax.
    All people`s money is valued the same.
    No, it is not. Let us pretend that I make $1m this year and pay an effective tax rate of 25%. You, on the other hand, make $100k and pay an effective tax rate of 15%. NOTE: These are arbitrary numbers.

    This means that, each dollar I make has an effective value of only $0.75 while each dollar you make has an effective value of $0.85. Quite literally, each dollar you earn is worth more than the dollar that I earn in this scenario.

    you say the very rich should keep their money
    I don`t recall saying this... There is this thing called charity. Are you familiar with it or should I explain?
  75. Profile photo of richanddead
    richanddead Male 18-29
    3489 posts
    December 5, 2012 at 3:47 pm
    @lauriloo- Listen, if this is an economic issue for you, tax takes revenue from buyers and sellers and creates dead-weight loss.




    If your just advocating a humanitarian stance of ending poverty, then honestly, donate your money to people in Liberia. Even if you made minimum wage you`d still be in the top 12% richest people on earth, in Liberia about 85% of the population lives below $1 a day that`s poorer than 91% of people. In the civilized society you mentioned, don`t these people come first?
    The reason I say that is right now, the rich are the biggest donors to places like Liberia because of many of those "tax loopholes" you mentioned. Usually contributing the bulk majority of the $23,530,000,000.00 the US donates every 5 years.

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