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Date: 11/15/12 07:17 AM

118 Responses to Some Truth About The Israeli Attack

  1. Profile photo of NNoamfer
    NNoamfer Male 18-29
    1216 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:19 am
    Link: Some Truth About The Israeli Attack - Listen carefully, he gives us only facts.
  2. Profile photo of flying_ltj
    flying_ltj Male 18-29
    340 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:40 am
    ... Yah, we`ll just put a bunch of pop culture computers behind you while you make your speech and it`ll add to your credibility. Trust me!

    Wanna talk about reality? The reality is the lady behind him looking at crap on Youtube & playing online poker REALLY adds to this guy`s credibility.
  3. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:42 am
    I have a question. If Mexican cartels were firing rockets into the US almost daily, how long do you expect it would take for the US to retaliate vigorously?

    I hope any American out there considers this question before posting. Also, the speaker in this video is a jack*ss.
  4. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36695 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:43 am

    "Only Facts" ?
    I hear emotionally packed descriptions leading the viewer to agree with the reporters viewpoint.

    "Massively disproportionate strikes" - In his opinion is disproportionate? How big is "massive" exactly?

    "Some Isrealis had trouble sleeping because of the reallly primative rockets hamas has"... Oh, PUH-LEEZ! Like we`re supposed to believe Isreal struck back so they could get some sleep?

    I only made through 1:05 of this verbal diarrhea before I shut it off.
  5. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:45 am
    If an Israeli like NNoamfer is can post this there is still hope.
  6. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:51 am
    Here`s the deal.

    If someone stabs me with a knife, and I have a gun, I will shoot him, and all of you would too.

    If I am a country, and someone fires a rocket at me, I will fire 1,000 back. Same thing.

    Stop drating with me, or it`s gonna hurt!
  7. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:51 am
    Also, saw Young Turks, and hit stop. Less than 1 second.
  8. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:52 am
    TYT and in particular Cenk Uygur who was born in Turkey and is such a radical leftist that he was replaced on MSNBC by Al Sharpton. His hatred of Israel is rather evident, this being an example of his judeophobia.
  9. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:59 am
    "If I am a country, and someone fires a rocket at me, I will fire 1,000 back. Same thing."
    Hmm you can say the same...
    If i am in an occupied with violence and army illegal colony and the previous inhabitants of that land that i have confiscated against international resolution fires rokets at me i have the right to answer?
  10. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:07 am
    ya just like when the USA kills chidern its just collateral damage even if their just bomming citys
  11. Profile photo of auburnjunky
    auburnjunky Male 30-39
    10339 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:09 am
    @piper: Let`s not get into this debate. The land, and country belong to Israel. The Palestinians are the rebels.
  12. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:12 am
    @auburnjunky
    so you support Palestinians fight for freedom?
    you do call them rebels just george washington and luke skywalker
  13. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:15 am
    Israel, as part of its "never again" attitude, has always done this sort of thing: slap me and I`ll hit you with a hammer. The odd thing is that Hamas and anyone else attacking Israel has to know this, yet Palestinians continue to fire rockets into the country by the hundreds, damaging property, and injuring - sometimes killing (3 today) - citizens. It seems disingenuous to weep and cry to the world media over Israel`s brutal, disproportionate attacks, only to go right back to goading it into another assault. I`d ask them why they keep sacrificing their own people for world attention.
  14. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:16 am
    dm2754: Really? You`re going to compare Nazi Palestinians to George Washington and Luke Skywalker? Seriously?!

    If so there is no use in even trying to debate you on this, you`ve jumped the shark already.
  15. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:17 am
    If an Israeli like NNoamfer is can post this there is still hope.

    Ya I`m sure no Palestinians live in Israel. Care to tell us how you feel about jewish people piper?
  16. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:20 am
    @dm2754

    So you consider sharia law laws freedom ROFL!! You don`t consider logic just whatever goes against the US because you think it`s somehow all your land.
  17. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:24 am
    McGovern1981 "because you think it`s somehow all your land"
    Lol and with that you drated yourself alone.
  18. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:27 am
    McGovern1981 care to inform you that Israel don`t represent at all jewish people. Jewish people live all around the world and lot of jewish people around the world have shame for what that country do in the name of all jewish.
  19. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14628 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:29 am
    "so you support Palestinians fight for freedom?"

    Well I for one do.

    I don`t want any war, but if there is fighting done, I am rooting for the Palestinians. I have nothing against the Jews, but they shouldn`t be there and they are frankly behaving like Nazis.
  20. Profile photo of NNoamfer
    NNoamfer Male 18-29
    1216 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:34 am
    @McGovern1981, I`m European Israeli, used to be a Zionist.
  21. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:36 am
    @McGovern1981
    why do you always make it about race? you must be a racist.
    anyway
    one that the USA has learned is “to win a war you must kill as many civilians as posable”
  22. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:37 am
    @CrakrJak
    no, it was a joke about how auburnjunky used the word "rebels". i think he was joking too
  23. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:45 am
    @dm2754

    LOL1 Now tell me which army is targeting civilian directly and which one tries everything possible not to? Jewish isn`t a race BTW that about sums up what you know on the subject.
  24. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:47 am
    Thinking that the Palestinians own this land is the same as believing the Native Americans own the US.

    It`s fine to debate whether or not it was just or moral to take the land in the first place, but there is no longer any question about the current owner. Just as the US government owns this land, Israel owns that land.

    Until a more powerful force can take and redistribute the land, it belongs to Israel.
  25. Profile photo of burbclaver
    burbclaver Male 50-59
    878 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:49 am
    Ha! "Only Facts" It`s the biggest piece of biased reporting I`ve ever seen, whether I agree with it or not.
  26. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:50 am
    @HumanAction

    Took the words from my mouth for piper.
  27. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:51 am
    @Draculya

    This fight for freedom please explain how exactly Palestinians live free with sharia law?
  28. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:54 am
  29. Profile photo of VirtualParty
    VirtualParty Male 18-29
    787 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 8:59 am
    The unmitigated truth is that Israel is in a state of survival mode against the publicly declared jihad, and the general middle east mind-set that sees the eradication of their entire peoples as a goal to work towards, along with the fact that Palestinian denial of the holocaust.

    If Israel must take it`s pre-emptive strike, so be it. They have tough decisions to make, and this is along the lines of tactical.

    The rockets should`ve been only targeted at military outposts, installations, vehicles, supply lines, ect. Not civilians. That is the one thing about the act of the Israelis in this instance that I don`t applaud.
  30. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3890 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:10 am
    Are you f*cking kidding me? A Young Turks video? This video was so utterly wrong and so batsh*t crazy I couldn`t even last a minute. This garbage was clearly approved to start a flame war. What`s next are we going to be subjected to a Glenn Beck video? If this is the route you are going I am done with IAB.
  31. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:10 am
    You mean to tell me that all you guys who talk about the right to bear arms wouldn`t find back against a foreign country that occupies your land and bulldozes your home so they can move their people into your neighborhood?

    I wish Hamas would go away, though. They hurt their own people by their violent response.
  32. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:16 am
    You mean to tell me that all you guys who talk about the right to bear arms wouldn`t find back against a foreign country that occupies your land and bulldozes your home so they can move their people into your neighborhood?
    I would certainly fight back. However, if they have taken an occupied that land and I have zero chance of recovering it, then I would not march around insisting that it is my land.

    Instead, I would state that this land was stolen from me and I will fight because of that.
  33. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:30 am
    "Instead, I would state that this land was stolen from me and I will fight because of that."

    That seems to me exactly what the Palestinians have been trying to do, in their limited, underfunded way. The comparison to the U.S. "liberating" land from the Native Americans is quite apt. The Palestinians used to have a country. It was stolen from them and now they are basically using bows and arrows against long-rifles and cannons trying to get it back. I`m sure you neo-cons consider the Israeli occupation to be a just and decent advancement of democracy, right? You guys really do need a more international perspective and less propagandized sources for your news. Your brain-washing is very evident (and very successful).
  34. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:30 am
    The Young Turks? UBER_Liberals just giving us facts?
    Sounds unlikely, but let`s try...
    0:17 "...massively disproportionate..."
    LOST!
    Sweet mother of pearl! I`m not about to waste my 10 minutes watching some idiot slag-off telling ONE side of a story. I could watch the TV news for that.
  35. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:31 am
    But I do agree this caption SUCKS. Though what he says is true, he is biased and overly-emotional because he sees the injustice of the whole thing. Many of you obviously don`t.
  36. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:38 am
    @chalket

    I`m sure you neo-cons consider the Israeli occupation to be a just and decent advancement of democracy, right?
    So much to cover in so few characters. First off, I dislike conservatives almost as much as I dislike liberals; I consider myself to be a Constitutional Libertarian. As such, I am a strict non-interventionist and do not support military adventurism via any excuse - including the spread of democracy.

    That being, I believe you are daft regarding fundamental concepts such as: How the World Works. Throughout history (and certainly in the future), countries are formed via forceful acts. While the act seems cruel to the naive (such as yourself), it is necessary to continue advancement throughout the world.

    Where are you from? Would you like me to tell you where the US got that land? Enjoy it, you hypocrite, you.
  37. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:44 am
    @chalket, @FP and @piperfawn:

    My parents sold the family home on Ash St in 1976, for 40K. However! I`ve decided it`s still MY house, so I`m moving back in! It`s easily worth 200K now!

    Current owners? If they won`t leave, we`ll divide the house up: I get most of the kitchen though, while they can have most of the furnace room (and PAY the bills!) that`s fair, right?

    And if there`s any complaints? I`ll shoot the windows out of random houses nearby! Oops, hit a few people? Too bad!

    You`ll call the police? HA! They won`t do anything! In fact, I think I`ll call the police too!
  38. Profile photo of Quaribea
    Quaribea Female 40-49
    34 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:47 am
    Nobody in this conflict has the right to show moral outrage. Here`s an idea. Stop killing each other and behave like civilized people and maybe somebody will take you seriously as a country. What you people are doing now is not working, on either side.
  39. Profile photo of RoboPatton
    RoboPatton Male 30-39
    2424 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:48 am
    Yeah Britain, you should have just ignored the nazis bombings, I mean... Cmon, those V2s weren`t THAT effective...
  40. Profile photo of sicker
    sicker Female 30-39
    325 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:52 am
    I have the perfect solution for every war, every disagreement, every injustice. Everyone takes a time out in their own corner and leaves everyone else alone until they can learn to be reasonable. The end.
  41. Profile photo of Profworm
    Profworm Male 30-39
    399 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:54 am
    There is a very large difference between the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. As a people they are under constant threat of attack and need to be protected. As a nation they have taken an almost Manifest Destiny approach to expansion, which just reinforces the cycle of violence.

    It`s hard to accept the claim that they`re just removing Palestinian squatters, while watching them bulldoze 500 year old, sacred olive trees.
  42. Profile photo of Quaribea
    Quaribea Female 40-49
    34 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:58 am
    RoboPatton: If it had gone on for more than 60 years... Let`s not count the 2000+ year background before that, I would say, "Yes." Let`s sit down and find another way to deal with this. Let`s just picture Germany and Britain still lobbing bombs back and forth today. Isn`t that pretty?
  43. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:03 am
    @FoolsPrussia

    You seem to think Israelites haven`t also been there for milenia. Now wich culture is it that enforces their belives onto others through law?
  44. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:15 am
    `You seem to think Israelites haven`t also been there for milenia. Now wich culture is it that enforces their belives onto others through law?`

    No, I never said that. Jews and Palestinians lived in relative peace for a long time, before the state of Israel was founded. What the government of Israel practices today is essentially manifest destiny, that they entitled to certain areas because that`s what an ancient book tells them, which is just as crazy and as far from "the rule of law" as anything you say about Muslims.

    I recommend you watch this documentary by Louis Theroux. It will show you the religious lunacy on the Israeli side is just as big a contributor to the problem as any Jihadist: LINK
  45. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:20 am
    @HumanAction
    So, you think stealing things via forceful acts is okay and necessary for advancement? Wow, how neanderthal of you! By the way, what is your address, I could really use a new house for my advancement. Am I just being naive to think that stealing your stuff is wrong?

    Yes, historically land was won through violence but countries aren`t often formed that way, they are just expanded (like Israel in 1967). We are supposed to be more civilized now than we were in medieval times, aren`t we? That is why we have the Geneva Conventions. That is why the U.N. was formed. To keep stronger countries from preying on weaker ones.

    Calling me a hypocrite for living in America presumes I agree with and support the U.S. treatment of the indigenous peoples. You obviously don`t know me that well.
  46. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:22 am
    @5Rats
    The fault in your cute little story is your parents never sold the home. The home was taken from them at gunpoint. Try justifying any of your further idiocy in that much more accurate scenario.
  47. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:29 am
    So, you think stealing things via forceful acts is okay and necessary for advancement?
    Ahh, you are inferring something here that is incorrect (it`s OK, you didn`t know any better). You`re assuming that the same "rules" that apply for a country apply for an individual. Since you are a liberal, I assume you support welfare? Given the logic you`ve exhibited above, then you would infer that it is perfectly fine for you to steal my wallet in order to go to the doctors. You didn`t think this one out very well.

    what is your address, I could really use a new house for my advancement
    I encourage you to try; this house is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

    countries aren`t often formed that way
    Almost every country was formed this way...

    That is why the U.N. was formed
    I don`t support the US participation in the UN.
  48. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:33 am
    A BBC reporter`s infant son was killed in an Israeli airstrike.
  49. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:33 am
    @chalket: Since I know everyone here likes to play fallacies, I`d like to point out that the reason your pervious statement was incorrect is known as the fallacy of division.
  50. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:39 am
    @Proworm: You post is so full of fail!
    while watching them bulldoze 500 year old, sacred olive trees.
    >Links or it`s just bull-dada!
    >"Sacred Olive Trees" = WTF? They`re Muslims! Worshiping `things` is expressly forbidden, under penalty of death! Even owning a "sacred picture of Muhammed" is blasphemy!
    >Olive trees live for 500 years? News to me...
    >Perhaps if the terrorists didn`t hide rocket launchers in the trees, Israel wouldn`t have to clear them, eh? (presuming your bull-crap story is true, just for a moment, it still is stupid!)
  51. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:41 am
    @McGovern1981
    >>tell me which army is targeting civilian directly

    all of them! see WWII

    >>Jewish isn`t a race

    it`s clear that you have naver read the book of mormon.
  52. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:42 am
    One person`s freedom fighter is another person`s terrorist. Both sides are fighting for their percieved rights to land etc. etc. But both sides have perpetrated dispicable acts. Its depressing that we still let religion overcome common sense in this day and age.
  53. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:43 am
    @FoolsPrussia

    And many Israels children were killed by Hamas missiles your point? It`s probably a good idea not to stay close to where Jihads are they`ll use you as a shield.

    That is why the U.N. was formed

    The U.N. is a joke it`s as useful as The League of Nations was and look were that got us.
  54. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:44 am
    @dm2754

    This isn`t WW2.
  55. Profile photo of schecter5
    schecter5 Male 18-29
    406 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:45 am
    Jewish is actually considered a race.

    It is one of the few (only one I know, but I wouldn`t be surprised if there are more) titles that is both a religious affiliation as well as a race.

    Fun fact, it is passed down by the mother.
  56. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:49 am
    why dont you thell the Israelites tha samething everyone always tells me."if you tird if beeing hated in you home land; then just move!"
  57. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:50 am
    @McGovern1981
    come on man you can do better then that
    you where funny up till now.
  58. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:51 am
    `And many Israels children were killed by Hamas missiles your point? It`s probably a good idea not to stay close to where Jihads are they`ll use you as a shield.`

    Did I condone the attacks by Palestinians? No. Palestinians would do much better if they practiced strict non-violence, like Gandhi.
  59. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:57 am
    why dont you thell the Israelites tha samething everyone always tells me."if you tird if beeing hated in you home land; then just move!"

    They don`t want them to move they want them to die.
  60. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:59 am

    dm2754 - Being jewish is not a race. NAVER has been. Also, put a little effort into grammar, you are harder to understand than piperfawn (at least he has an excuse).

    schecter5 - Being jewish is not a race. Jews do not all share a common ancestry. I am aware that some refer to themselves as a jewish because of their ancestors, even though they don`t believe in the religion. These people are idiots. The idea that only the mother passes along the "jew" just proves it`s made up. Jews have a religion and a culture, but it`s not genetic.
  61. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:00 am
    Did I condone the attacks by Palestinians? No. Palestinians would do much better if they practiced strict non-violence, like Gandhi.

    So what you`re saying you want to free the side that doesn`t support free laws and makes a piss poor case of playing the victim?
  62. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:01 am
    why dont you thell the Israelites tha samething everyone always tells me."if you tird if beeing hated in you home land; then just move!"
    Because the two situations are opposite. In this conflict, Israel is holding the stick. In your situation, the US government holds the stick. He who hath the stick keeps his apples.

    To reiterate from earlier, I am not arguing any moral aspect regarding this conflict. I am simply stating a well known fact.
  63. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:15 am
    @turdburglar
    English in not my first language. And in have dyslexia. I post to help practice writing; because everyone here is so nice in helping pointing out my mistakes.(grow up and make a real argument)
    Most of what I post is just to be silly because "I AM BORED". What I love about the USA is a semi-literate like me can make so much money doing nothing but playing on the web all day.

    Any way
    Jewish are a race look it up.
    here

    i know this to be true as an Israelite myself.
    my ancestor are one of "lost tribes of Israel" the Nephites.
  64. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:20 am
    @HumanAction
    ya, it`s the golden rule.
    he who has the gold makes rules.
    it the same every where. the powerfull pick on the week. if you have something an they want it thaey will try to take it. and the usa is the same as everyone else
  65. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:28 am
    it the same every where. the powerfull pick on the week. if you have something an they want it thaey will try to take it. and the usa is the same as everyone else

    What I love about the USA is a semi-literate like me can make so much money doing nothing but playing on the web all day.

    Wow ya sounds like you have it rough...
  66. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:29 am

    dm2754 - You have made it clear that you are a native and live in the usa, so I thought it a safe assumption that you would have been raised speaking English.

    I apologize for that comment.
  67. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:32 am
    @dm2754

    ya, it`s the golden rule.
    Indeed it is. We can sit here and argue until we are blue in the face about whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day it simply is.

    Consider men and women. Women, on the average, out-perform men in standardized tests. Simply put, they are more intelligent that we are (on the average). Why then is this a male-dominated world?

    The answer is quite simple: we are bigger are stronger.
  68. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:34 am
    @turdburglar

    I grew up with Shoshone, Spanish and English all at the same time in the same sentence you want to talk confusion. lol and i just need to prof read more
  69. Profile photo of fancythat
    fancythat Male 30-39
    1950 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:37 am
    This guy is annoying.
  70. Profile photo of Profworm
    Profworm Male 30-39
    399 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:51 am
    5-Cats, no need to get hostile. I can source.

    >Olive trees live for 500 years? News to me...
    Actually there have been several confirmed olive trees in the 2000 year ballpark. Check the olive tree wiki on that one, it has an entire section on old trees. It`s pretty cool.

    As for the significance of the trees to the Palestinians... I concede than sacred was the wrong word. My bad.

    As for the effects,
    Here`s a 2-page PDF from the UN detailing the significance and scale of the destruction.

    And in case you think that`s probably some liberal scam, Here`s one f
  71. Profile photo of Profworm
    Profworm Male 30-39
    399 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 11:53 am
    Continuing. That was a link from Fox news detailing the destruction of 450 trees in 4 days by Israeli extremists.
  72. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 12:15 pm
    Ok whoopdeedoda it`s olives. Mabey they dislike olives.
  73. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    @HumanAction
    Your fallacies abound as well, my friend. You`re assuming that anyone who supports welfare supports stealing? Those are not the same in any way. And why should the same rules not apply? Stealing is stealing, killing is killing, do you really think doing it on a larger scale should make a difference?

    "I encourage you to try"
    So you`re saying if I am better armed than you, that would make it right and legal?

    Almost every country was formed this way

    You`re somewhat right. Perhaps I should have said, "Countries aren`t often formed that way ANYMORE, now that we are ostensibly more civilized and have internationally-recognized laws against it."
  74. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 12:25 pm
    You`re assuming that anyone who supports welfare supports stealing?
    You really didn`t catch the part where I said "Given your logic"? This means that, when I said this, I said it because I was demonstrating that your logic was fallacious. This implies that I logically disagree with the statement.

    So you`re saying if I am better armed than you, that would make it right and legal?
    Not at all (see answer above). I`m saying that, if you came to my house to try and steal from me, I would shoot you.

    You`re somewhat right.
    I am entirely correct. You modified the statement in question by adding the word "anymore". In the context of the original statement, I was entirely correct.
  75. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 12:31 pm
    5Cats olives trees lives much longer than 500 years, in Sardegna there is a field with really ancient olives trees some of thems have more than 1500 years.

  76. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 12:32 pm
    @chalket

    Well, since you`re not going to get the comparison anyways, I will try to simplify it for you.

    You hypothesized that, if a country can act in a specific manner, then any individual can act in the same fashion. Here you are saying it:

    So, you think stealing things via forceful acts is okay and necessary for advancement? Wow, how neanderthal of you! By the way, what is your address, I could really use a new house for my advancement.
    I demonstrated that this is fallacious. If your logic in the above statement were true (it isn`t), then this would be as well:

    Given the logic you`ve exhibited above, then you would infer that it is perfectly fine for you to steal my wallet in order to go to the doctors.
    The country can (and does) take our money to provide healthcare for others. However, you cannot (it`s illegal). Therefore, your logic is poor.
  77. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:10 pm
    @turdy: Race, religion, nationality? Why split hairs over it? Jews = Jews. Mennonites & Hudderites (for example) are also ethnic sub-cultures based on (but not exclusive to) religious beliefs. Like Jews, they live all over the world yet maintain their cultural identity.

    Why then is this a male-dominated world?
    @HumanAction: It`s because women have been using men as "cannon-fodder" for 25,000 years... "saber-tooth-tiger" fodder actually...

    @Profworm: Sorry for the anger, my "pre-coffee" manners need a little work...

    Nice links! They mostly back up what you say (on that one issue).
    Well, yeah there`s 500 year old trees around (I didn`t know Olive trees were in that grouping) but to claim they`re "sacred" is an insult to Islam...
    And it doesn`t say Israel destroyed 500 YO trees.
  78. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    That`s an ugly tree @piperfawn! lolz! I`m joking, it`s impressive!

    However: While it`s true that citizens are destroying the property of others and it seems the Authorities are not properly protecting them or punishing the ofenders...

    #1 The property is on the Israel Side of the Fence! Tough titties! Since Palestinians FLAT OUT refuse to sell it? (at least not to dirty Jews, or anyone who`d turn around and sell it to the Jews) = TOO BAD!

    >>If the PLO had accepted the Oslo Accord? It would NOT be an issue at all!

    But they did refuse, and now Gaza is the "de-facto" Palestine and the West Bank is de-facto Israel`s land.

    #2 IF the PLO didn`t send terrorists into Israel all the time? There would never have been a Fence built in the first place!!

    How RUDE of Israel to protect it`s own citizens, eh?
  79. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4896 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:35 pm

    5cats - You`re right it doesn`t matter, in this context it`s just splitting hairs. When dm and schecter5 said they were, I was surprised a bit. I have never heard anyone claim that. Since then I looked up the subject a bit, and I see arguments for both sides. (I still disagree)

    dm2754 - maybe you should use firefox browser. It has spell check. I am pretty crummy with spelling, and it helps.
  80. Profile photo of triki-trakes
    triki-trakes Male 18-29
    83 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:55 pm
    bla bla bla, nobody should care about the middle east when we got our own shi t to take care of at home.
    I like how they use the american flag in their background so as to insinuate they are something other than terrorists? I dont know
  81. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:59 pm
    Take your whiney a$$ over there and do something about it. Hey, young turks support terrorists.
  82. Profile photo of Profworm
    Profworm Male 30-39
    399 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 1:59 pm
    There`s no doubt that the wall has saved Israeli lives, I just wanted elaborate on why it`s such a point of contention.

    People seem to think of the fence as a metaphorical line in the sand, but it`s a very real wall that often puts the Palestinians on one side and their livelihood on the other. The trees are a huge part of why they don`t just go "Oh well" and move away.
  83. Profile photo of dm2754
    dm2754 Male 40-49
    3338 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 2:13 pm
    did no-one get my joke
  84. Profile photo of uatme
    uatme Male 18-29
    1074 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 3:20 pm
    wow the captions are bad
  85. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 5:42 pm
    ...because everyone here is so nice in helping pointing out my mistakes...
    That one @dm2754? I got it! Pretty darn funny actually!

    it`s a very real wall that often puts the Palestinians on one side and their livelihood on the other...
    @Profworm: It`s true, and it`s sad too. BUT they have no one to blame but themselves!

    Why not sell the land? Israel would pay ABOVE market value, so would dozens of Jewish, non-violent groups too!
    >Because ANY Arab who sells land to a Jew is likely to get killed! That`s why!
    These people are insane with hatred, and it started LONG before 1948...
    Even the few sane ones obey their leaders, Imams and neighbors crazy rules! If they like staying alive that is.

  86. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 6:36 pm
    piperfawn: There are Bristlecone Pines over 4,000 years old here in America. So what`s your point?



    Methuselah oldest known non-clonal organism, 4,800+ years old.
  87. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:03 pm
    Why is it that, after an exhaustive search, I can`t find one damn photo or news article attributed to "Jihad Misharawi" other than this incident?

    I`ve tried to exclude this incident, in my searches, in many ways and this incident is THE ONLY mention I see of his name anywhere. There is no biography of him, no mention of how long he`s supposedly worked for the BBC or if he was just an independent photographer.

    I get suspicious about claims of people being `reporters` or `journalists` when there is no proof of their work other than just one incident that they were involved with.
  88. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:03 pm
    CrakrJak lol my point was to explain to 5cats that olives trees can live also millenniums, cause he have doubt on it...that`s all. This thing disturb you?
  89. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 7:13 pm
    CrakrJak lol allow me a pun joke so, how you explain as a creationist that there are living creatures on the heart that have more than 4000 years? :-)
  90. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    If you go the the Young Turds for "some truth," you really are a f***tard.
  91. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    November 15, 2012 at 10:09 pm
    piperfawn: I`ve never claimed to be a `young earth` creationist. I also don`t put any limits on God`s power to manipulate time/space/matter in anyway he so chooses. Just because there are rules and laws that limit us doesn`t mean those rules apply to God, who is omnipotent.

    It simply doesn`t bother me how old anything is that we, as humans, date. God pre-dates all of it and time is not something that restricts him.
  92. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:00 am
    @HumanAction
    Well, at least you`re quite good at twisting logic! You started this off by calling me naive to think that one country stealing land from another seems cruel, and you justified it by claiming "it is necessary to continue advancement." Pure bullpoo. Perhaps that was true when there was still territory to be "discovered" and conquered (though indigenous people may already have discovered it long before). That time is past. Every bit of land is accounted for and (ostensibly) owned and controlled by one internationally-recognized country or another. And that was true in 1967 when Israel appropriated all that extra territory. That land was therefore stolen, both legally and morally. It certainly was not a part of some noble "advancement throughout the world."
  93. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:35 am
    You tell me, in effect, that a country conquering land from another ("formed via forceful acts") is "necessary to continue advancement" then justify it with the idea that the rules are different for a country than for an individual. Are you really saying if an individual steals from another it is morally bad, but if a country steals from another country it is morally good? That is an unacceptable dichotomy in a supposedly civilized world.

    You hypothesized that, if a country can act in a specific manner, then any individual can act in the same fashion.
    No, I was trying a simple analogy to show you how silly your comment was. You obviously missed the point because if I hypothesized anything, it was that stealing through forceful acts is NOT okay for either individuals or countries.
  94. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:53 am
    "The country can (and does) take our money to provide healthcare for others."

    In my opinion, YOUR logic is poor. The country doesn`t take our money, we give it freely (if grudgingly). We, as a society, have agreed (through our elected representatives) that the government deserves a certain amount of our money to provide a variety of services and benefits. You may not like paying it, but that is the system which WE have created and agreed to, it is not stolen and therefore not analogous to someone stealing your wallet.

    "I am entirely correct."
    You said "Almost every country was formed this way." I still say you were "somewhat correct" since many countries have been formed peacefully; via treaty (as in Israel), division (the Czech Republic and Slovakia), negotiation (East Timor), or dissolution (the old Soviet Union became 15 new countries). Sorry, but that is far from "entirely correct."
  95. Profile photo of avail9988
    avail9988 Male 18-29
    700 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 2:19 am
    fcuk them both.
  96. Profile photo of Vimto
    Vimto Male 40-49
    2853 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 3:38 am
    You don`t eat pigs,
    We don`t eat pigs,
    It seems it`s been that way forever

    So if you don`t eat pigs,
    And we don`t eat pigs,
    Why not, not eat pigs together?
  97. Profile photo of inversegrav
    inversegrav Male 30-39
    770 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 3:47 am
    this asshats first comment was enough for me.:
    disproportionate attacks??????????

    You try to murder me and if I return the favor I am not allowed to actually do it?

    Rot in hell
  98. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 6:02 am
    @chalket

    You started this off by calling me naive to think that one country stealing land from another seems cruel
    Once again, you are wrong. You attacked one of my claims (that was to FoolsPrussia). Hence, YOU started this. Your original attack was over this:

    I would certainly fight back. However, if they have taken an occupied that land and I have zero chance of recovering it, then I would not march around insisting that it is my land.
    Somehow, from this, you extrapolated a moral stance on the issue, even though I stated this earlier:

    It`s fine to debate whether or not it was just or moral to take the land in the first place, but there is no longer any question about the current owner. Just as the US government owns this land, Israel owns that land.
  99. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 6:10 am
    And that was true in 1967 when Israel appropriated all that extra territory.
    So you are suggesting that, a large powerful force (the UN), forcefully taking a redistributing land, isn`t a forceful act? Also, can you please describe what event triggered sympathy for the Jewish? Was that event (Hint: WWII) forceful?

    that the rules are different for a country than for an individual
    Are you denying this? Countries can create legislation that affects the entire constituency. Can you? (The answer is no). So what have we learned then? Ah, yes, countries play by different rules than individuals. So again, I`m correct.

    No, I was trying a simple analogy to show you how silly your comment was.
    You missed a word. It was a simple FALLACIOUS analogy. Your analogy suffered from the fallacy of division, hence, it was silly.
  100. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 6:14 am
    Are you really saying if an individual steals from another it is morally bad, but if a country steals from another country it is morally good?
    What an illogical conclusion (and a false dichotomy). I am saying that a country has only the responsibility to look out for it`s constituents. I did not say it was morally correct. Please find that section in my wording and post it so I can show you that you are being foolish.

    In my opinion, YOUR logic is poor.
    Well, we are all entitled to our opinions - just not our own facts.

    The country doesn`t take our money, we give it freely (if grudgingly).
    This is known as willful ignorance. If you do not pay your taxes, what is the result? Ah yes, they are either FORECFULLY taken or you go to jail. Yes, your logic is marvelous.
  101. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 6:27 am
    [quote">I still say you were "somewhat correct"[/quote">
    ... and you`re still wrong. Here is your list of countries: Source

    Do you suppose the dissolution of the USSR was nonviolent? (Answer: Yes you do suppose this, incorrectly).

    Israel was birthed from violence. It was a violent act that gave sympathy to them, and it was a violent redisribution of land.

    Now, the original Czechoslovakia was born from the post-WWI dissolution of Austria-Hungary. A Soviet takeover occurred post-WWII and it became the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic. How is this non-violent? Without these acts of violence, would the most recent "peaceful" division have occurred? (Nope...)

    Why did East Timor declare independence? Porteguese occupation and violence.

    Lastly, please refer to my words. I did, in fact, say ALMOST every coun
  102. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 6:31 am
    @chalket

    At this point, I think you should consider giving up. You are clearly outmatched and I am concerned that your pride and/or feelings may end up being hurt.

    Afterall, no man twice the elder of his opponent feels good about such a trashing as this.
  103. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 7:41 am

  104. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 8:53 am
    Hey guys, what did I miss?
  105. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 10:00 am
    Hey guys, what did I miss?
    Well, I`ve been spanking @chalket for the last day or so. It`s been good for a few laughs.
  106. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:11 pm
    @HumanAction
    Wow, so much to correct...
    Actually, my reply to your "zero chance of recovering it etc." was "That seems to me exactly what the Palestinians have been trying to do, in their limited, underfunded way. etc"

    You say there is no longer a question about the current owner. You are wrong. Yes, the U.S. government now "owns this land." At the time it was stolen from the natives, there was no accepted international ban on stealing land. In 1967, when Israel stole the Palestinian territory, there were common laws and bans on that very practice. The two are not equatable in the least.
  107. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    a large powerful force (the UN), forcefully taking a redistributing land...

    There is a difference between land acquired at gunpoint and land acquired through peaceful negotiation and democratic process (the UN). Why does that keep escaping you? WWII was just the tipping point, the causation is not nearly that simplistic.

    Countries obviously have more power than individuals, but that doesn`t mean they don`t have the same moral obligations. Just because they CAN do something doesn`t mean they should. As I have said before, there are international standards of what countries should and should not do. Israel broke those rules (with no consequence) and have been oppressing the occupied people ever since. Somehow to you that is okay, because it is a nation doing it to individuals. I can`t agree with that logic.
  108. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    @chalket

    Wow, so much to correct...
    Well c`mon now, get to you. Don`t let me stop you. Oh, that`s right... you don`t really have anything. Good talk.

    Actually, my reply to your "zero chance of recovering it etc." was "That seems to me exactly what the Palestinians have been trying to do, in their limited, underfunded way. etc"
    Interesting that, of all of my five posts full of rebuttals, this pertains to none. Either way, I am all too happy to take you to task on this as well.

    Follow closely. You are arguing a moral stance. You suggest that, well there were international laws for Israel... so there! My argument is literal. In 1967, who TOOK the land? Israel did; Israel took the land. Since Israel TOOK the land, who then HAD the land? It`s Israel. Great, so Israel was the owner.

    Let me ask you this, does it suck being wrong all the time?
  109. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:29 pm
    I am saying that a country has only the responsibility to look out for it`s constituents.

    Again, you are wrong. In this day and age there is an international community that is supposed to supersede any one country`s power, an organization entrusted to intercede on behalf of the less powerful. I know you don`t accept the UN and that it rarely works as it should, but the world powers at one time agreed that their unfettered power was dangerous to the world and thus there should be a means of reining in those powers.

    If you do not pay your taxes, what is the result?

    But the fact remains that you (or your elected representatives) agreed to pay it. That`s why they have the power to force the payment you`ve already committed to.
  110. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:31 pm
    There is a difference between land acquired at gunpoint and land acquired through peaceful negotiation and democratic process (the UN).
    Absolutely. However, the land has still been acquired regardless (this eludes you for some reason...). In addition, how Democratic and peaceful was the forceful taking of land?

    Here, let`s use the logic from your analogy earlier. So, it`s wrong if I beat you up and steal your house. However, if I hold a conference with the town and everyone (except you) agrees that it should be my house, then you are OK with this? This is cool by you, eh? Force is force regardless of how it is applied.

    but that doesn`t mean they don`t have the same moral obligations
    I never once said they do. Again, you`re incorrectly extrapolating. I said that any governments ONLY responsibility is to protect the rights of its constituents.
  111. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:34 pm
    In this day and age there is an international community that is supposed to supersede any one country`s power
    Ah, and this is working out how then? I suppose everyone in the UN was cool with invading Iraq, you know, since it happened anyways? Simply because you want something to be true does not make it so. Then again, you are of that mentality apparently.

    That`s why they have the power to force the payment you`ve already committed to.
    Potentially with violence, yes? Ah, so it is the forceful, and potentially violent taking of capital from one person by a country. So again, you have proven my point.
  112. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:36 pm
    Give up old man! Not only do I think faster than you, but I type faster as well!

    Or carry on. I can use the fun; it isn`t often I get to argue with someone so intellectually... lacking.
  113. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:39 pm
    Wow, as I said before, I give you props for your ability to twist words and logic. Well done! I will no longer argue with your twisted preconceptions, since you fail to concede even the simplest of concepts. I give in to the shear weight of your piles of bullpoo. Your ideas of morality are warped at best, so enjoy your laughter however you choose to justify your fallacies. Good day and good bye, this discussion is over. (I admit I did laugh out loud at your "clearly outmatched" bravado though!)
  114. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    November 16, 2012 at 1:47 pm
    @chalket

    Ah, wonderful. I accept your admission of defeat. I know I`ve critized the contents of your message relentlessly, however, I must give you credit for how often you said it. Your twisted view of reality is a delight to pull apart.

    I admit I did laugh out loud at your "clearly outmatched" bravado though!
    Wonderful; I was concerned that you had begun to take it poorly. Not you though @chalket! You certainly took this beating like a champ.
  115. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    November 17, 2012 at 9:30 am
    LOL... He is very fair and balanced.
  116. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 17, 2012 at 1:09 pm
    Every bit of land is accounted for and (ostensibly) owned and controlled by one internationally-recognized country or another.
    @chalket: This is true! I say this ALL the time! It is vital to understand this in the I/P conflict.
    And that was true in 1967 when Israel appropriated all that extra territory.
    This is FALSE: Here`s why:
    #1 The land is "disputed" not "occupied". There`s a HUGE legal difference! Get the terms right!
    #2 Israel was INVADED in 1967, those lands were captured by ARABS and then `Liberated` by Israel! Again it`s a world of difference!
    #3 The Oslo accord GAVE Palestinians 90%+ of everything they wanted, on a silver platter! They refused it (since it didn`t include the destruction of Israel...)

    They have no one to blame but themselves. Or other Arabs/Muslims...
  117. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32829 posts
    November 17, 2012 at 1:22 pm
    and land acquired through peaceful negotiation and democratic process (the UN).
    And again @chalket, I point out that the PLO Refused the peaceful deal & continued it`s WAR on Israel.
    Israel SIGNED and passed Oslo! All the PLO had to do was stop attacking! Now it doesn`t matter since the other side refused, it no longer applies to Israel, eh?

    I used to LAUGH when "pro-PLO-nicks" used to accuse the IDF of "violation of the Oslo Accord".
    MSM reporters, the CBC, local peace-activists, lefites of various stripes...
  118. Profile photo of chalket
    chalket Male 50-59
    2712 posts
    November 19, 2012 at 1:54 am
    Damn, 5Rats, I was trying to get off this subject, but you just had to spout more crap, didn`t you?

    #1 Only a small portion of the land is "disputed" (the West Bank) and that is just by the Israelis themselves. The UN, the EU, the ICoJ all consider it to be OCCUPIED territory. Even the Israeli High Court of Justice says the West Bank is held under "belligerent occupation."

    #2 Who invaded Israel in 1967? Citations please! We all know the 6-Day War was a PREEMPTIVE war, those lands were not `Liberated`. What a crock!

    #3 Oslo I or Oslo II? And please cite your source for that 90%+ claim. We all know that is one of those "pulled from your ass" statistics. The Oslo accords were destined for failure from the start. Though the initial agreements made by both sides were encouraging, the deal depended on a gradual buildup of trust, but there were no mechanisms for arbitration or correction of disputes. Both sides broke their promises.

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