Carl Sagan On The Library Of Alexandria & Hypatia

Submitted by: peakingo 4 years ago in

Such a needless loss.
There are 71 comments:
Male 2,516
mesovertex has a point, pure philosophy has provided more wrongs than rights. Gottlob Frege even studied how to provide more accuracy to philosophy through mathematical logical inferences. That`s even a field of its own nowadays (aka analytic philosophy)
0
Reply
Male 458
"jendrian: Most of the greatest philosophers ever, were not scientists and I can give you many examples. "

CrakrJak - and most of the philosophers have been dead wrong. If you studied philosophy, you would know this.
0
Reply
Male 458
"I see no sense arguing with someone that has no grasp of proper grammar, you`ve proved that your IQ is sub-moronic just by your lack of syntax."

You just used a comma splice. Your position against evolution and most science is ideological only. You aren`t willing to change your mind, thus it`s pointless to argue it with you.

If you`re going to play grammar nazi, point the finger at yourself, first.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
furthermore, what extra lesson is there in the jolly ol` fellow that isn`t in what I described?

Doesn`t that make them even more selfish? To think that every christmas they should be entitled to free stuff?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
So why is it that they can`t love all of mankind a little? Wouldn`t that negate your argument?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
haha sure, I`m sure none of your behaviour is influenced by the reward of heaven. Oh wait
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: Rewarding someone for them doing what you want is called Bribery. Only giving to those you love is not charity.

So you just taught them that anyone can be bribed and only give to those people you love, to not be charitable to strangers. Way to go, you`re creating selfish brats that believe they can buy love and people.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
Shoot away your examples, I will show you how they were scientists
0
Reply
Male 2,516
No, I`ve told them their parents love them so much they want to reward their good behaviour. And that when they love someone, they give without expecting retribution.

Is it really necessary to have fairy for that?
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: Most of the greatest philosophers ever, were not scientists and I can give you many examples.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: So you`ve just subtracted the lesson and joy of giving, without without wanting recognition for it, and taught them what? That mom and dad are buying their love and they grow up feeling entitled and become brats?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
I mean, does it really escape to you that the greatest philosophers mankind has ever produced have been scientists?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
[quote]I mean just because theology and politics are both part of `philosophy` in general do you believe those two should be engaged with one another?[/quote]
Yes. It`s the reason there is a separation between church and state, because people have thought about the two in the same frame.

Are we living in the same planet?

Do you honestly think scientists never think of metaphysics and aesthetics? Who, of all other humans in the world, is better suited for it than those who devote their lives to the pursuit of knowledge?
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: The Ph in PhD may indeed have originated to mean philosophy, but then originally only the liberal arts had PhDs. But that doesn`t signify that all scientists engage in philosophy.

Now if you mean that scientists engage in logic and problem solving, those are subsections of the general field of philosophy that also includes aesthetics, epistemology, metaphysics, morality and politics.

I mean just because theology and politics are both part of `philosophy` in general do you believe those two should be engaged with one another?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
and yes, I`ve broken fantasies down to children, and it never ceases to amaze me how much happier they are to know how stuff actually works. But maybe it`s just in how I explain it.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
@CrakrJak: The Ph in PhD stands for Philosophy. And every person who engages in inferences and plays with logic is doing philosophy. So yeah, all scientists engage in philosophy.

Schools also teach children them to prejudice against nazis and greek mythology.

It seems to me that the ones who can`t have the cake and eat it too are religious people: if you want to be free to practice your religion, you can`t force it on other people. If you want to use a cellphone and a computer, you have to accept that science is correct, whether it goes against your instruction book or not.

If you want a society that is based on truth, you can`t hang on to unfounded beliefs that have been disproven several times.

Science on the other hand, as a self-adjusting mechanism, can, and often does, makes the cake, cuts it, and eats it. Because it knows exactly how.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: Schools do more than just `disseminate knowledge`, they teach kids how to learn, not just what to learn. If those kids are taught that religion is nothing more than a fantasy, then you`ve just prejudiced them against it for the rest of their lives. It`s no different than teaching any other kind of prejudice, and it`s wrong.

Did you crush your kids belief in Santa Claus, in the name of `truth`, too?
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: In actuality what PhD. Means is that you made a `Doctorate` level study, completed coursework, and had your dissertation published. `Philosophy` needn`t be included to gain a PhD. The broader sense of the term `philosophy` means `Love of Wisdom`.

[quote]..every single scientist has ever done..[/quote]

Not every scientist engages in philosophy or theology like you just claimed, that`s both absurd and bloviated.

[quote]Why should knowledge of religion be out of the grasp of science?[/quote]

Because atheists insist that religion not interfere with science, so it`s only fair that science not interfere with religion. You can`t have your cake and eat it too.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
As for your comment for Angilion... you mean to say that schools, the institution whose sole intention is to disseminate knowledge, tend to side with factual knowledge and shun unproven hearsay?

You don`t say, how evil of them to only tell children things we know are factually true.

My offer stands, I can educate you on why your disbelief in evolution is unfounded.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
@CrakrJak: you understand what the term PhD means right? Philosophy Doctorate. It means you have attained a level where you can teach (doctrine <- latin) a love for knowledge (philos = love, sophia = knowledge).

There is absolutely nothing wrong in scientists entering the realm of philosophy and theology, as every single scientist has ever done in his/her lifetime. In fact, without philosophy, science doesn`t progress, because we use it in the scientific method, in inference, and in all other areas of science.

There is no such thing as a separation between philosophy and science. I can attest for that first hand.

And in matters of religion well, is that not only abstract thoughts as well? Why should knowledge of religion be out of the grasp of science?
0
Reply
Male 17,512
Angilion: [quote]Few if any scientists are trying to use science to prove the non-existence of your god.[/quote]

Really? Atheists are doing this on a daily basis in our schools and colleges right now. Hell it`s being done here on IAB on a semi-regular basis.

[quote]Science explains *how* things happen. It doesn`t explain *why* they happen that way. If you want to say it`s because your god set the universe up that way, that`s up to you.[/quote]

Finally, A rational argument I can agree with. My arguments against evolution are merely science based, I don`t quote the bible when arguing against it, I keep them separate.

Unfortunately those arguing against God do not do the same and thus we get into discussions like this. Insisting that Christians not mix science and religion but not imposing the same restrictions on the atheists makes for a lopsided and unfair debate.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: When science starts delving into the realm of philosophy and religion it has jumped the proverbial shark. Unprovable conjecture is not what science should be about. Leave religion to the preachers and philosophy to the philosophers and perhaps Christians won`t feel the need to delve into science in defense of their beliefs.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
mesovortex: [quote]Your discussion are wrong because of (a) they do not have correct or even accurate science and (b) you argue based on an ideology.[/quote]

I see no sense arguing with someone that has no grasp of proper grammar, you`ve proved that your IQ is sub-moronic just by your lack of syntax.
0
Reply
Male 12,365


If, for example, you demand that everyone is conditioned to believe that lightning is a magic weapon thrown by your angry god and that everyone must give your clerics money and power to placate your god, then you are clashing with science.

If you say that you believe that your god created things in such a way that lightning can happen as a result of natural processes, then you are not clashing with science.

Science explains *how* things happen. It doesn`t explain *why* they happen that way. If you want to say it`s because your god set the universe up that way, that`s up to you. It`s a seperate thing from science. The most that a scientist would say in opposition is that your explanation is unnecessarily complicated and unsupported by any evidence.

And yes, *some* scientists are theists. But, unlike you, they understand what science is and they understand that they must keep science and religion seperate.
0
Reply
Male 12,365
Few if any scientists are trying to use science to prove the non-existence of your god (or any other gods). That is purely your fantasy for the purpose of falsely portraying yourself and your fellow believers as victims in order to gain political power by doing so.

Science is, in essence, a method of finding reliable, rational, natural explanations of how the universe works. It clashes with religion only when religion demands people believe unreliable, irrational, supernatural explanations for how things work, explanations that stifle thought and prevent the technological progress we so desperately need.
0
Reply
Male 2,670
I see CrakrJackoff is busy defending his silly little deity again.

Science always wins. Your god, CrakrJackoff, will one day join Zeus, Thor, and all the rest in the dustbin of history, on the shelf marked `Mythology.`

Oh, and you`re an idiot, regardless of any degrees you claim to have earned. News flash, moron -- Bob Jones doesn`t count.
0
Reply
Male 12,365
[quote]then let`s debate what you think are flaws in my disbelief in evolution[/quote]

Simple - it`s a reality-denying position that is solely ideologicial.

You may as well disbelieve in light or gravity or earthquakes. Like evolution, those are things that happen. You can disbelieve in them for ideological reasons if you like, but you can`t expect anyone other than like-minded ideologues to take you seriously when you do so.

Your silly prating about science trying to destroy your religion are projection - you are trying to destroy science by corrupting it into a tool for your religion and so you assume (or pretend to assume) that scientists are doing the same thing the other way around. You are wrong.

To be continued in another post due to character limits.
0
Reply
Male 2,440
Holy f*ck, Crakr. Seriously?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
[quote]It`s not the role of science to `disprove` God and those attempting to do so are fools.[/quote]
Actually, since the role of science is the attainment, cataloguing, and use of knowledge, usually by the proposal of ideas and the disproval of such ideas, then yes, god enters within the realm of science. And there`s nothing dumb about that. Brilliant people have worked on the problem, and the fact that there`s not really that much work being done on it lately means the matter is mostly settled.

Moreover, the existence or influence of an intelligent `god` (defined as supernatural) in the world have been clearly phased out in the last 500 years.

I have a degree in theoretical physics, by the way. Care to argue about the big bang?
0
Reply
Male 2,516
@Angilion: upon a quick google search... you`re right, sorry about the Hypatia comment.

@CrakrJak: How is that any different? And what about the entire creationist movement? What about the Westboro Baptist Church. What about the doctors getting killed for performing abortions?

And you say: "we all know moonlight is reflected from the sun", but that`s not what a sizeable and somewhat vocal number of christians believe.
0
Reply
Male 458
CrakrJak: Your discussion are wrong because of (a) they do not have correct or even accurate science and (b) you argue based on an ideology.

There`s no point in debating you here or publicly to be honest because your position is an ideology that will never change no matter how many times you are shown to be wrong.

Science marches on without you.
0
Reply
Male 15,187
F the Christians.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
ccalhoun: [quote]I have never once seen you debate on much more than your opinions and beliefs based on what you`ve read from the bible and seen on Fox News.[/quote]

Then you haven`t been around IAB for very long. I`ve had numerous scientific discussions without ever mentioning the bible, religion or FoxNews.

As for your polemic about my education and Christianity, that was a really lame attempt at a troll. You can`t honestly believe that being a Christian and a scientist are mutually exclusive. If so, then I have news for you, you`re a moron.

There are millions of scientists around the world of different religious beliefs, most of them are Christians.
0
Reply
Male 76
CrackrJak, I find it absolutely hilarious that you`re laying down "rules" to orchestrate a fair and intelligible debate, when I have never once seen you debate on much more than your opinions and beliefs based on what you`ve read from the bible and seen on Fox News. This science degree you earned must have been a very long time ago, perhaps before you found jesus?
0
Reply
Male 17,512
mesovortex: Please tell us what science degree you have and what research you`ve done on the topic.

Otherwise quit being a hypocrite and STFU.

If you do have a degree, then let`s debate what you think are flaws in my disbelief in evolution, please use specific examples of what I`ve said in the past and not generic anti-Christian rhetoric.

I don`t care if science ignores God, that doesn`t bother me. What bothers me are people trying to argue laws of science to try and disprove God. It`s not the role of science to `disprove` God and those attempting to do so are fools.
0
Reply
Female 373
I have never found that Carl Sagan was in love with himself, I always felt he loved science and wanted to share that with the world.
On a lighter side I enjoyed the movie Agora, yes it took liberties, yes there were Historical inaccuracies like most movies, but it was just great that someone bothered to make a movie about Hypatia.
0
Reply
Male 787
I think it`s Crackjak`s hobby to come on here and prove to everyone just how effectively he`s been indoctrinated by ignorance and rhetoric, proving that the only real enemy that will emerge in the coming decades is thinking like his.
0
Reply
Male 458
CrakrJak: Every time you mouth off about evolution you prove you don`t know anything about it. Unless you have a degree in evolutionary biology (which is a thing that actually exists) then that has got nothing to do with your supposed `expertise` - which is none.

I`ve followed you around here a while. You know nothing about evolution, and should probably listen more than you talk about the subject so you could actually educate yourself about it.

Science doesn`t use the concept of god because it explains everything, and explains nothing. It is indistinguishable from fantasy, and is useless as far as a naturalistic explanation goes.

It`s you who has things a little mixed up.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
mesovortex: I graduated from college with a science degree. I know exactly what is evolution claimed to be and graduated on the Dean`s list. Perhaps it is you that should `probably shut up`.

You believe science has a set of `laws` that limit God, I do not. I believe God is omnipotent, that means `All Powerful`. God simply isn`t bound by the rules that man creates for himself.
0
Reply
Male 458
CrakrJak: Seeing as how you`re scientifically illiterate, are a creationist, and doesn`t even know what Evolution is, you should probably shut up.
0
Reply
Male 1,059
Sad to think we`re being ushered into another 1000 year dark age by statists and socialists. And as Carl would say, "there`s no one to stop them".
0
Reply
Male 286
The internet is our new Alexandria. Protect it.
0
Reply
Male 12,365
jendrian:

There were women studying and teaching in various Greek and Graeco-Roman museions, including Alexandria, long before Hypatia was born. She was not particularly outstanding even if you ignore every man. There are no extant records of any of her own work, so we don`t know what if any original work she did.

Also, the Eratosthenes who was a noted scientist and mathematician died centuries earlier.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jendrian: Bill Nye was booed because he decided to bring the bible into a science discussion, to discredit it. It wasn`t because he said the moon reflects light, because we all know that. It`s because he decided to try and use that in a lame attempt to discredit the bible.

peakingo: Christians have no problem with stem cell research, they have a problem with harvesting stem cells from aborted fetuses. And btw, it turns out that, since that fetus stem cell ban, we`ve found out that adult stem cells are actually better.
0
Reply
Male 2,578
You all need to chill the frack out.
0
Reply
Male 761
@ CrakrJak, what about Christians stopping stem-cell research? That`s literal science that Christians are trying to stop.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
@Angilion: Hypatia was the ONLY woman in there, and she was there because Eratostenes, the previous head editor, was so impressed with her ability to think that he went against everyone`s wishes to keep the library male... for some reason. Eratosthenes then named her his successor in the position of head editor. Not bad huh?

She was also the head of the school of Astronomy and Mathematics in there and less notably for me, leaded the school in Platonic philosophy.

Of course she was never head editor because she was murdered. But if that`s all you remember about her, you need to read a little deeper.
0
Reply
Male 2,516
@CrakrJak: Oh really? You may be completely ignorant then that scientists that speak about moonlight being light reflected from the sun get booed (it even happened to Bill Nye) and barred from speaking.

And you may ignore the complete "young earth creationist" movement too, which aims at the complete disbelief of everything in science that contradicts the bible, such as evolution and the big bang.

You may ignore these things, but they`re there, and they`re part of the group of people that call themselves "christians", whether you care to include them or not
0
Reply
Male 12,365
[quote]Uhm, no we don`t. Christians are trying to fight the atheists that wish to muzzle them and tear all mention of religion out of American society. It`s the atheists, given the chance, that would destroy every bible and burn down every church in the name of their new god, science.[/quote]

Are you trolling or deluded? Those are the only two possible causes for someone making a statement that is so ludicrously and obviously untrue.

You are like the raving anti-everyone-else Muslims ranting against the American Imperialist Crusade To Destroy Islam, but more so. They at least have some shreds of bits of scraps of reasons to think that way, if they ignore most of reality. You have nothing. You`re making your reality-denying babblings from nothing at all.
0
Reply
Male 12,365
Hypatia was only famous for being murdered. She wasn`t one of the great minds of the museion.

It grates on me that she`s pretty much the only one remembered.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
Peakingo: [quote]Alexandria was a free thought community.[/quote]

No it was not `free` that`s why it failed and he just said as much in this video. Open your ears next time because you missed his point.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
patchouly: [quote]Christians want to bury all the proof that shows how ridiculous the Bible and religion is.[/quote] .. [quote]Christians shun any knowledge that contradicts or threatens their views.[/quote]

Really believe that BS don`t you? You`ve been fully indoctrinated into the atheist rhetoric and are now spouting it forth to others.

I never did see Christians try and stop man from landing on the moon, or IBM from developing the computer chip, or doctors from working on the cure for cancer. In fact most of the scientists working on such projects are/were Christians.

So go take your BS lies somewhere else.
0
Reply
Male 3,147
I get what you`re saying Gerry - I do see it more with NDT and not so much with Sagan though.

I find what NDT has to say fascinating, but yeah...he does seem a little up his own butt a little on his podcasts and some of his tweets.
0
Reply
Male 4,745
It never ceases to amaze me the way CrakrJak can state the opposite of fact, as though it were true.

Christians want to bury all the proof that shows how ridiculous the Bible and religion is. Atheists want to spread knowledge. All knowledge.

I took a religions class in school to learn about religion. I`ve read the Bible and the Quran. I`ve learned about many religions and their origins. Christians shun any knowledge that contradicts or threatens their views. In fact, it`s the closed mindedness that keeps their brainwashing firmly in place.
0
Reply
Male 219
Crakrjak is right 100%! What are you on?
0
Reply
Male 3,285
Ahh crakrjak. 100% wrong again. You seem to be on a roll lately.
0
Reply
Male 761
CrakrJak, you totally misunderstood his point. Alexandria was a free thought community. That`s the point, they never fought over ideas and beliefs. They fought over math, science and astronomy.

They believed in the storage of all knowledge regardless if it deferred from theirs because they knew the importance of archiving all of it. The Christians, specifically the Bishop found them all in contempt of Gods Laws and he killed the strongest mind Hypatia, then destroyed the Library because of her/their "Pagan" beliefs with total indifference to the preservation of the worlds greatest writings.

What Carl is addressing is the need to understand this error and not to repeat it.

It has nothing to do with the elite being the only benefactors of higher learning and everything to do with preventing the suppression of free thought; including spiritual and scientific while the Bishop saw science as a Pagan practice that warranted death and destruction.
0
Reply
Male 76
CrackrJak, how can you so eloquently state what may be the greatest flaw in our education system and then say something so blatantly moronic just a few hours later?
0
Reply
Female 6,381
CrakrJak! I didn`t realize you were stupid! I`m so sorry for you.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
jamie: [quote]christians... still have the same desire to destory knowledge and science.[/quote]

Uhm, no we don`t. Christians are trying to fight the atheists that wish to muzzle them and tear all mention of religion out of American society. It`s the atheists, given the chance, that would destroy every bible and burn down every church in the name of their new god, science.
0
Reply
Male 2,345
we have a modern day version of the religious fanatics that destoryed the library...we know them as the right wong christians and to this day they still have the same desire to destory knowledge and science.

although they love the ish outta science when they need it for transportation, internet, medical, etc. they just don`t realize it.
0
Reply
Male 10,338
@Darkalen:

I was coming to say the same thing.
0
Reply
Male 17,512
He`s basically saying that when the elites hoard knowledge and learning that society suffers and fails. Much the same thing is happening in our colleges and universities right now, they`ve raised tuition costs over $20,000 a year, kept inept professors on tenure and denied tenure to those that challenge their reign.

If this situation doesn`t change the US will fall further down the ladder of educated nations and revolution will be the only cure left.
0
Reply
Male 39,614

Listypoos - It`s his pompassity. Yeah, he`s smart, but he got to be such a blowhard. NTD started the same way, love him. Now he`s just as long winded as Segan. People in love with themselves irritate me.
0
Reply
Male 414
Where have I heard that voice mimicked...

"You hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability. It is the sound of your death. Goodbye, Mr. Anderson."
0
Reply
Male 3,147
lol Gerry.

Is it just Sagan`s voice or what he`s saying that you find boring though? For example, does Neil Degrasse Tyson send you to sleep too?
0
Reply
Male 2,214
Unlike most,Sagan had something to say.
0
Reply
Male 39,614

Yeah, Listypoos, he puts me to sleep as well.
0
Reply
Male 3,147
He was one of my childhood heroes..and sadly he died after one of his bone marrow transplants just as I was being prepared for mine.

I still love falling asleep to either one his books like the pale blue dot or some other astronomy course being read to me on audio. Mind you, it drives the g/friend nuts so he`s not for everyone I guess.
0
Reply
Male 39,614

blah blah blah
Lord that man can talk a lot.
0
Reply
Male 761
0
Reply