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Date: 09/08/12 09:25 AM

276 Responses to The Persecution Of Atheists In America

  1. Profile photo of jinxjinx34
    jinxjinx34 Male 30-39
    183 posts
    September 7, 2012 at 9:50 am
    Link: The Persecution Of Atheists In America - Atheist Billboards? Go America!
  2. Profile photo of Ripper398
    Ripper398 Male 18-29
    1310 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:52 am
    I just wish both sides would die off so we wouldn`t have to listen to them fight anymore. It`s almost as bad as the Republican`s vs Democrats.
  3. Profile photo of PinkRhoid
    PinkRhoid Male 18-29
    1239 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:54 am
    I loved the Imperial and Rebel logos thrown in at the end with all the symbols.
  4. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2589 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:07 am
    Head on: apply directly to the forehead.
  5. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:16 am
    When atheists donate to an atheist cause they are no longer atheists.
  6. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:27 am
    One small step at a time. Eventually, intelligence and scientific facts will win the day over the wizardry, mumbo jumbo of religion and we can put it all behind us and move forward as a society.
  7. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:33 am
    Why are people offended?
  8. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:35 am
    @madest

    When atheists donate to an atheist cause they are no longer atheists.

    Cute but does it actually mean anything?
    Explain your statement.
  9. Profile photo of Jakk88
    Jakk88 Male 18-29
    45 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:42 am
    There`s probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
  10. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:43 am
    Wow, i can`t imagine being persecuted for being an atheist.

    Fu­ck america, Canada rules!
  11. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:43 am
    @madest -- I actually agree with your donation statement.
  12. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:46 am
    madest, I don`t think that atheist means what you think it means. Not believing in God doesn`t mean that we don`t believe in *anything*. There is no central atheist headquarters or platform, but, sometimes atheists do gather together around common interests like keeping God out of our laws, etc. That`s not inconsistent at all with not believing in God. It`s not anti-God. It`s simply a belief that religion oughtn`t be in our laws. Of course, there are plenty of agnostics and even religions folks who agree that there ought to be a separation. As such, there are all sorts of groups who are politically active. Why would atheists get together like that? Heck if I know. But, it doesn`t, in and of itself, mean that we believe in God or the Devil. One can be an atheist and still be politically active.
  13. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:46 am
    @elkingo

    I actually agree with your donation statement.

    Ah, then maybe you can explain what he means
  14. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:06 am
    Most of the people in my life are open Atheists, they seem fine.


    But really, everyone should just keep their origin-beliefs private. Other people aren`t entitled to know them, nor should you stick your origin-beliefs in somebody else`s face. If everyone did that, it would be impossible to persecute anybody.
  15. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3917 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:23 am
    Anytime there is a billboard up for the Atheists there will be another somewhere for God. I think the only people benefiting from these are the billboard companies.
  16. Profile photo of soundman655
    soundman655 Male 50-59
    1558 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:25 am
    And christians are different from nazis how?
  17. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:44 am
    @ReBoot - Sure.

    Atheism is simplistically not having faith.

    When atheists begin to organize, and donate to the cause, they are doing exactly what people of faith do. Organizing and making a cause and witnessing that cause is exactly what churches do, out of faith. Atheists who do this have "faith" that their beliefs are right and should be testified to the world.

    That is not atheism, that is anti-theism.

    Atheism is simply not having faith.

  18. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:46 am
    @soundman655 -Trololololo!
  19. Profile photo of Barnk
    Barnk Male 30-39
    486 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:46 am
    People that believe in God tend to be dumb. Atheists tend to be smart.
  20. Profile photo of Cherrybawls
    Cherrybawls Male 18-29
    167 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:50 am
    I live in the states and I am openly atheist. I have honestly never gotten any trouble or grief from anyone about my beliefs and it seems as though most of my friends are atheist as well (Though that probably has something to do with the fact that I attend a top notch University). Maybe I`m an optimist but I think the future holds good things to come. I think the younger generations are becoming increasingly disillusioned from religious dogma. Eventually reason will win!
  21. Profile photo of Rizzo71
    Rizzo71 Male 40-49
    427 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:00 pm
    Oh my dog!
  22. Profile photo of thatjimguy
    thatjimguy Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:01 pm
    and this is why Christians are having a hard time gaining ground. Can you blame anyone not wanting to believe in religion with this mess?

    Funny thing is, I am a Mormon and the people who prosecute these atheists would say I`M the one in a cult.
  23. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:18 pm
    elkingo, atheism and anti-theism are most certainly NOT mutually exclusive. At all. In any way. None.
  24. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:33 pm
    "Atheism is simplistically not having faith. "

    No, it`s not. Atheism is not believing in a god or multiple gods. An atheist can actually be part of a religion, so long as the religion has no god (i.e. Buddhism). It has nothing to do with "faith" or "lack of faith". Thus it`s not contradictory for atheists to join atheist organizations or to donate to atheist causes, especially when you consider these causes/organizations are there *because* of atheists being persecuted and slandered. It has nothing to do with religion or faith at all, it`s being politically active as SmagBoy already said.
  25. Profile photo of jkfld
    jkfld Male 30-39
    138 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    Hey LillianDulci, (and anyone else who might be interested) have you heard of the new Atheism Plus movement? It`s a subset of atheists repudiating bigotry, advocating for social justice, and trying to increase diversity. Very exciting, in my opinion. I think it would be right up your alley.
  26. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1945 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:53 pm
    I don`t agree with persecuting atheists but if some people want to pray in public (like after a ball game) and you don`t like it because you`re an atheist then STFU about it and stand aside. I don`t consider praying in front of an atheist as persecuting them or harming them in any way.
  27. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    @elkigno

    For starters, being an atheist means only that you do not believe in god/gods. you can have faith in other things if you want.

    When atheists donate to an atheist cause they are no longer atheists.

    That`s what he said. Effectively what he`s saying is that if you donate to an atheist cause, you believe in a god.
    What you`re trying to say is that by having an organizational structure, atheists are no longer atheist.

    That is not atheism, that is anti-theism.

    you keep talking about atheists having faith in what they`re doing. This is not at all the same as having faith in a creator and i think you know that.too.

    Also, how is getting the message out that it`s ok to be atheist, "anti-theist" ?
  28. Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13631 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    I`ll be rather glad when extra terrestrials land on Earth,then as a tribal race as we are, all religions will join, (and probably try to bomb the crap out of them)
  29. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 1:27 pm
    It`s sad they were oppressed with prejudice. But the whole world is under the yoke of sin, and no way or person is free from it. It drives wedges, draws battle lines, fortifies batteries, and unleashes arrows with the sole purpose of dividing us so that we can destroy ourselves. Fear not though, because someday this world will be free of sin.

    Still, its passing can be easier if we strive together love one another. If you look at the world right now, any news website even, it won`t take you long to clue in that the world needs more love.

    The world needs more love and we ought to do all we can to use it. We don`t have to do it alone either, because we have each other, and we have a shining star in Christ and his lessons. He has has shown the path of Love for us all, so that we too can know how to walk it, and share to a world starved of love
  30. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 1:35 pm
    @TheGuySmiley

    God doesn`t love you or anybody else.
    Read the bible.
    Don`t look to Christianity to heal the world`s hurts
  31. Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13631 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    @TheGuySmiley

    Fear you will be mocked, as in all of IAB`s religious slobber knockers, never ends, don`t even get razzled by it, let it go, and let em harp on and on and on its a IAB eternal flame war. keeps the profits up I guess
  32. Profile photo of Zuriel
    Zuriel Male 30-39
    554 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 2:24 pm
    ..mehh, who cares. even the faithful have their doubts of their own faith.. if they didn`t, they`d all be leaders in their religion, not just sheep. it`s easier to follow a teaching than it is to think for yourself. no new news here
  33. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 2:44 pm
    TheGuySmiley, you cheapen the meaning of love by throwing it around so freely. I assure you, neither you, nor anybody else, loves a person that they don`t know. It is simply your feeble attempt at projecting some sort of enlightened nature that you claim comes from your religion. You can say you love someone, but that doesn`t make it so anymore than me standing in a garage makes me into a car. You can claim your God is the author of love, but you have no evidence of that and every religion will tell you that you couldn`t possibly know the mind of God. Without fail, every time I have encountered a Godbot, such as yourself, it is someone that claims to have been an atheist at one time and is now saved and completely fanatical about their religion. I think your obsession with God and love are clues as to why you actively dismiss reason.
  34. Profile photo of Baelzar
    Baelzar Male 40-49
    1399 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 2:51 pm
    Organized atheism? Way to miss the point!

    I hate rude atheists who make the rest of us look like idiots. STFU already, quit preaching like a god lover.
  35. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 2:57 pm
    Baelzar, being an atheist doesn`t mean that you have to be apathetic.
  36. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:00 pm
    NottaSpy: Thank you for your opinion, and your judgements, and names, it makes it easier to understand your position. But before trying to teach someone about love, wouldn`t it be important to live by it?
  37. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    TheGuySmiley, there are perfectly good words in the English language that you can use that actually mean what you think love means. The only unfortunate thing is that those words don`t have that fake air of enlightenment about them.
  38. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    ReBoot: God loves us all, John 3: 16-17, and love is what will heal
  39. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:08 pm
    NottaSpy: then lead the way in love!
  40. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:13 pm
    Love is between two people who come to know each other very well. It isn`t confetti that can be tossed around. I think you mean kindness, which just happens to grow proportionally with knowledge. Knowledge grows when it isn`t hindered by religion.
  41. Profile photo of SheaSF
    SheaSF Male 40-49
    98 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:28 pm
    The real danger in religion (at least Christianity and Islam) is exactly what TheGuySmiley is referring to: the idea that we`re biding out time, waiting for this world to pass away. This world is fallen, under the yoke of sin--we`re all born sick, and we can`t be well with a human sacrifice 2000 years ago. Atheists are simply pointing out how religion too often stands in the way of working toward a better world. One where science and rational discussion increase our understanding of the natural world. One where religious turf wars don`t hold the world hostage over the disputed intentions of a god that doesn`t exist. And that`s not oppression. Laying out facts and evidence does not oppress anyone. However, acting as though faith claims holds equal weight in this discussion oppresses the truth.
  42. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:29 pm
    NottaSpy: Love between two people who know each other very well is good, but it`s not just there! It can also be between a person and a community or between communities, or for God, or country or for our planet, or all people. It`s not just kindness either, but real love, which can be just as intense for some people as others may find say with a husband or wife.

    But don`t be biased against religion, because the inward meaning of true religion is to love one another, and when we do that, we`ll be truly efficient. Sin, evil, wickedness, hatred, judgements, etc, things like that, those are the hinderance.
  43. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:32 pm
    I`ll be right back. I`m going to go stand in my garage and see if I become a car.
  44. Profile photo of ferdyfred
    ferdyfred Male 40-49
    13631 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 3:36 pm
    TheGuySmiley
    Told ya, dont bite laddy
  45. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 4:24 pm
    @TheGuySmiley

    God loves us all, John 3: 16-17, and love is what will heal

    lol oh he SAYS he loves use, sure. But he doesn`t. You can`t have a god who loves you and a hell in the same universe.
    Think about it.

  46. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 5:56 pm
    @SmagBoy1 -- You should re-read my post. I never made the claim that atheism and anti-theism were mutually exclusive. I actually attempted to define both as separate entities.
  47. Profile photo of OutWest
    OutWest Male 50-59
    546 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 5:58 pm
    another.... anti-Religious topic? All the Atheists should come here, they would feel uplifted.
  48. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 5:58 pm
    @LillianDulci -- Lol.. seriously? You are are going to argue semantics. I was trying to say that atheism is defined as not believing in God.

    I define faith as having a belief in God.

    When did definitions become so controversial?
  49. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 6:04 pm
    "you can have faith in other things if you want."

    Like what?

    Also, and be careful here, we are talking about things of a spiritual value. So saying you have "faith" that a dollar bill will exist after you shut your eyes is simply off topic and ridiculous.

    "What you`re trying to say is that by having an organizational structure, atheists are no longer atheist."

    Incorrect. What I am saying is that the structure is exactly like that of a structure of faith, or belief in something supernatural. That isn`t to say they are one and the same. Just that they are exactly similar -1.

    Atheism requires no such action or call to duty.

  50. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 6:04 pm

    "Also, how is getting the message out that it`s ok to be atheist, "anti-theist" ?"

    I don`t know, you explain that to me. I never made that claim.

    I assert that actively trying to dismantle religion through action and structure and replacement is anti-theism.

    Atheism is not believing in any god/creator. End of story. It is nothing more, and nothing less.
  51. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 6:07 pm
    "the idea that we`re biding out time, waiting for this world to pass away. This world is fallen, under the yoke of sin--we`re all born sick, and we can`t be well with a human sacrifice 2000 years ago."

    Christianity does not spread this message. Idiots do.

    The Bible actually says that we should be good stewards of the land. We should care for one another, and help one another (love).
  52. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 6:30 pm
    Atheism requires no such action or call to duty.

    .....and?

    I am saying is that the structure is exactly like that of a structure of faith, or belief in something supernatural

    Lol!
    Ok, i`ll bite.
    Go ahead and explain how atheists advertising to other atheist equates to a belief in a something supernatural or anything of the kind.
  53. Profile photo of antagonizer
    antagonizer Male 18-29
    508 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 6:50 pm
    I find all of those `Jesus saves` billboards along the highway offensive. Don`t like my sign sucker, then don`t put yours up.
  54. Profile photo of paperduck
    paperduck Male 18-29
    1745 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:14 pm
    I always thought one of the appeals of atheism is that it can avoid the whole "reach out and save others" mentality. Maybe innately humans just need to proselytize.
  55. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:20 pm
    "The Bible actually says that we should be good stewards of the land. We should care for one another, and help one another (love)."

    But, the Bible has been used to condone genocide, slavery, racism, and hatred against homosexuals. It also has been used to condone sexism and women as property.

    Your point?
  56. Profile photo of DFWBrysco
    DFWBrysco Male 40-49
    307 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:25 pm
    elkingo`s argument falls apart because he is trying to paste an atheist organization onto a religious superstructure. There are many organizations out there that are political, charity, grassroots or just non-profit in general that have nothing to do with religion, but eerily successfully operate daily.

    Besides... I don`t believe that the definition of atheism is so hardcore black-and-white "NO GOD PERIOD" - I consider myself an atheist and have several friends that do as well - yet, if god came down on thunderous stormclouds with lighting and angels trumpeting, we certainly would *not* stomp our feet, close our eyes and deny existance.

    On the other hand, if proof that God didn`t exist was found, most Christians I know owuld find a way to twist it into a religous idea that leaves the possibility open that he is...

    *sigh* Who is delusional?
  57. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:27 pm
    elkingo nice try at defending yourself, but if you define having faith as belief in a god, then the rest of your original post makes no sense.

    Example:
    "Atheists who do this have "faith" that their beliefs are right and should be testified to the world. "

    Atheists who do this have belief in a god that their beliefs are right, etc? No. You weren`t using "faith" as a synonym with "belief in a god". You were using "faith" as a synonym for something that`s held based on the hopes of the person. So my argument that atheism has nothing to do with faith (per your actual use of the term, not the definition you gave for it in your defense) stands.
  58. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:45 pm
    "Besides... I don`t believe that the definition of atheism is so hardcore black-and-white "NO GOD PERIOD" - I consider myself an atheist and have several friends that do as well - yet, if god came down on thunderous stormclouds with lighting and angels trumpeting, we certainly would *not* stomp our feet, close our eyes and deny existance."

    That sounds more agnostic to me. *shrug*
  59. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:48 pm
    sigh... Lilian..

    faith
       
    noun
    1.
    confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another`s ability.
    2.
    belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
    3.
    belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
    4.
    belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
    5.
    a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

    I was using expressively 2, 3, and 5. I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your argue of definitions.
  60. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:52 pm
    To re-examine and define my post:

    I said: "When atheists begin to organize, and donate to the cause, they are doing exactly what people of faith do. Organizing and making a cause and witnessing that cause is exactly what churches do, out of faith. Atheists who do this have "faith" that their beliefs are right and should be testified to the world. "

    If you notice, I put faith in quotations in the 1 sentence I referred to atheists who do what churches do. For reason too, because I was suggesting that atheists are doing EXACTLY what churches do when they become proactive, they have "faith" in a cause, like Christians have "faith" in God`s cause. How is that confusing to you?
  61. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:53 pm
    ".....and? "

    What and? There is nothing else required of atheism.. which is my point.
  62. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:55 pm
    "Go ahead and explain how atheists advertising to other atheist..."

    But! That is the thing, when you put up a public billboard you aren`t advertising to 1 group; you are advertising to EVERYONE in the public.

    "...equates to a belief in a something supernatural or anything of the kind."

    Read my other posts for the explanation on how it equates.
  63. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 7:56 pm
    "I always thought one of the appeals of atheism is that it can avoid the whole "reach out and save others" mentality. Maybe innately humans just need to proselytize."

    Exactly!
  64. Profile photo of artmunki
    artmunki Male 30-39
    176 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:10 pm
    Religious tolerance ... my favourite oxymoron!
  65. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:17 pm
    "faith
       
    noun
    1.
    confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another`s ability.
    2.
    belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
    3.
    belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
    4.
    belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
    5.
    a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. "

    Atheism fits none of those definitions. Ergo, it is not a faith.
  66. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:19 pm
    "Atheism fits none of those definitions. Ergo, it is not a faith."

    ...

    How am I being unclear... that is exactly what I am saying and have argued. It isn`t atheism, it is anti-theism. =/
  67. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:20 pm
    elkingo Saturday, September 08, 2012 11:44:18 AM: That is not atheism, that is anti-theism.
  68. Profile photo of RytWing
    RytWing Male 30-39
    316 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:38 pm
    @elkingo
    Don`t try and convince these people that atheists have a belief system. It is futile even though all you need is to believe in something, anything, to have a belief system. Like believing religions are false. Apparently that is not a belief system.
  69. Profile photo of inaria
    inaria Female 18-29
    1515 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:39 pm
    If religions are allowed to make billboards, then Athiests should be allowed to as well. I do not think it is OK to have bible studies or prayer in school unless you are going to a designated religious school. Public schools are no place for religion. I`m sorry but if religious people objectively looked at their religion they would see that it is a product of primitive knowledge about the world. Science should replace religion because it explains the world around us as religion tried to do. I`m sorry but you can have morals and views of what is right and wrong without religion. And in many ways being without religion makes you a more inclusive and accepting person.

    Why is it that christians in these stories are so ostracizing and mean? Is that not against what being a christian means according to Jesus or something? Its really disgusting.

    I guess i`ll append this by saying I grew up in a christian household and went to christian schools... lol
  70. Profile photo of El_Chinche
    El_Chinche Male 18-29
    546 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:49 pm
    @RytWing
    Atheist don`t believe that all religions are false, we know that for a fact.
  71. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:50 pm
    @RytWing -- I haven`t done that, damn it. I`m starting to get more than a bit annoyed here.

    I have claimed, and still claim this:

    1. Atheism is simply not believing in a god.

    2. a. So called atheist organizations are organized exactly as Christian organizations. So much so, that they are advertising exactly like religious organizations do.

    b. The organizations are in fact not atheist organizations, but rather anti-theistic organizations.

    3. Atheism =/= anti-theism.

    To sum up: The organizations in questions are organizing to people exactly like theistic organizations would. Since atheism does not require action, these organizations must either be something more, or something different. Enter the term: anti-theism. The agencies in question are in fact anti-theistic and are behaving in a manner that equates to belief or faith.
  72. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:51 pm
    "Atheist don`t believe that all religions are false, we know that for a fact."

    what
    the
    frig

    Seriously? Which deities do atheists believe exist?
  73. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14651 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:51 pm
    I can`t believe it`s so contentious that some people don`t believe in fairies.
  74. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 8:56 pm
    @Draculya -- Lol... I know right? I think it is simply in human nature for people to be argumentative in general.
  75. Profile photo of El_Chinche
    El_Chinche Male 18-29
    546 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:03 pm
    I was literally raised in a church, my family ran a pentecostal church in florida. It was one of the few non-catholic churches for Hispanics in the area we lived. I`ve forgotten more about the christian mythology than most people know. My parents don`t know I`m an atheist, if they did the sh*tstorm I would go through would be awful. I love my family, but they can be so goddamn stupid sometimes. This religion crap matters more to them than it does me so I let them think whatever they want to think about my religious beliefs, keeps them content and off my back.

    But there is one good thing I remember from those dark days of my childhood that helps me get through the day.


  76. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:15 pm
    Don`t try and convince these people that atheists have a belief system. It is futile even though all you need is to believe in something, anything, to have a belief system. Like believing religions are false. Apparently that is not a belief system.
    Yeah, yeah, I know we`re starting to argue semantics here. But not believing in something is not the same as having a belief system on that subject, in the negative as Elkingo pointed out. Getting abstract now, the statement "I believe there are no gods, that is my belief system" is different from "I don`t believe in gods, that is my belief system". It`s akin to saying "I have a belief system about unicorns, I don`t think they exist". Would any religious person say that say such a person had a belief system in the subject as Unicorns? I would say no, but there`s enough semantic room there to argue the case certainly. Same goes for the Tooth Fairy, or the Easter Bunny, or Bigfoot, or whatever.
  77. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:16 pm
    Or to use the old adage, would you describe a person who doesn`t collect stamps as a hobbyist, of a different sort? Or someone who doesn`t play chess, would you describe them as a hobbyist who`s a just a non-chess player? I personaly wouldn`t describe an atheist as having a religious belief system of a different sort, no more than I would describe a person who is completely ambivalent on the existence of Father Christmas as having a belief sytem regarding Santa Claus. But again, this is all semantics. Words mean different things to different people, and I don`t pretend that my personal definitions are the right ones.
  78. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:17 pm
    On-Topic. I`m an atheist, and anti-theist (in so far as, I think the world would be better without religion in it). Elkingo, I think we have the same definitions of these things. Personally, I wouldn`t contribute to an atheist billboard fund or attend an atheist rally. But that`s because I`m too cheap and too lazy. Call me a very passive anti-theist, and a very stout atheist.
  79. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:29 pm
    @davy -- I think that is exactly what I am saying, I would just wage to go a bit further and state that almost all atheists wouldn`t go to a rally or advertise, my argument being: what would be the end point?
  80. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:30 pm
    However, it makes perfect sense for an anti-theist to want to do these things, because there is an end point (disorganization/destruction of religion).
  81. Profile photo of El_Chinche
    El_Chinche Male 18-29
    546 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:33 pm
    elkingo, atheist don`t believe in deities, that`s the point my hyperbolic troll friend. I`m not sure what point you`re trying to make, or if you`re just trollin`, but as far as what an atheist believes, their spirituality or lack thereof, well that`s totally up to the individual. Since atheists don`t have a central doctrine it is up to that person to decide what is they want to do with their spirituality if they chose to keep it.

    But you keep playing semantics all you want though, I`m sure in your head you make sense to yourself. I`m sure you`ll have a great nights sleep and you can tell everybody at church tomorrow, I assume you still keep the sabbath day holy since you`re so adamant about your beliefs, how you got those wily pagans.

    But since you`re still hung up on semantics and most likely already disregarded everything I said here`s a funny gif to keep you happy.




  82. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:37 pm
    I have to say, as an etymologist, I`m baffled by the amount of confusion in these discussions...

    A-the-ism:
    A: meaning without
    the: From the Greek "Theo," meaning deity
    ism: From the Greek "Ismos," meaning doctrine

    Antitheism:
    Anti: meaning against or opposite

    Pantheism:
    Pan: From the Greek "pan," meaning all.

    Agnosticism:
    A: we covered this, meaning without
    Gnostic: From the Greek "Gnosis," meaning knowledge, or proof.
    ism: meaning doctrine.

    Atheists don`t believe in God doctrines.
    Antitheists are against God doctrines.
    Pantheists believe in all God doctrines.
    Agnostics don`t have proof of God doctrines.

    Donating to an atheist does not make you a theist, an atheist, a pantheist, or an antitheist, it makes you an altruist. What you believe defines your beliefs.
  83. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:37 pm
    @el chinche


  84. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:39 pm
    @biscuitbaske --

    Thanks for that; and I really get the meaning of, and interpret those definitions (although I am unsure why you included pantheism).

    I am offering the argument that it makes more logical sense for an anti-theist to make such a donation to begin with.
  85. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:41 pm
    El_Chinche, you don`t give Elkingo enough credit. He`s an intelligent guy, and I doubt very much he`ll be preaching to his flock tomorrow. He`s a bit of a maverick. A religious person, but not in the sense you`re thinking.

    Speaking here as an atheist who`s been at Elkingo`s throat many times in the past over the years and vice versa: I can vouch for him; He has his beliefs, but he`s no troll. And I should know: I spot trolls for a living. Hence the funky red username.
  86. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    I further argue that an atheist that would donate to such a cause (much like a Christian who puts up a similar billboard) is an egoist, as opposed to an altruist.
  87. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:43 pm
    I actually celebrate the sabbath on Saturday; and don`t attend church. Like davy said, I am a maverick and made my own religion. Lol.
  88. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    I am a conservative Christian so much so that I base my religion before the Romans paganized (basterdized) it.
  89. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:46 pm
    @elkingo, I would think an atheist could certainly have the motivation to donate to an atheist group, if that atheist group`s actions included increasing awareness of atheism to the end of decreasing intolerant behaviors towards atheists by theists. I think anyone would support a group which sought to decrease persecution against them. In fact, I believe in a theist who disagreed with such persecution would see clear to support an atheist group which sought to decrease ignorance and persecution of atheism. Wouldn`t you?
  90. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:47 pm
    *typo "in" ---> "an"
  91. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:50 pm
    Altruist: one who believes in others.

    Egoist: one who believes in one`s self.
  92. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 9:56 pm
    A egoist can also be an arrogantly conceited person, which is what I am suggesting. Don`t get me wrong, ending persecution is exactly what I am for.

    However, advertising in public is just that; public. They aren`t just advertising to other atheists, and if that was true, there would be no debate at all. They are advertising in such a manner that is exactly like how Christians advertise: in a recruit your ass manner.

    Egotistical and conceited.
  93. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:08 pm
    @elkingo It is certainly reasonable for you to see it that way; the video had a number of individuals who came to the same conclusion, but the fact remains that based on the messages provided on the billboards - and the statements of purpose released by the organizations - recruitment was not the intended purpose, understanding was.
  94. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:14 pm
    Here are the billboards we are debating:





    These are both recruitment billboards.

    Here are some Christian equivalents:






    My point is all 4 of these billboards are recruitment billboards. Nothing more, nothing less.
  95. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:15 pm
    what the heck.. Lol.. I promise I didn`t link the no dogma one, but rather the imagine no religion one... any rate, the point still is valid.
  96. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:23 pm
    I believe the one which says Beware of Dogma may be photoshopped, as it is the same style as the Imagine No Religion; though I have no proof besides that. Either way, I`ll admit, it is a style of recruitment. The second one, however, specifically begins with the qualifier that one already does not believe in God before indicating that the person has support, so that one is not recruitment. Devil`s advocate (what terrible terminology): Beware of Dogma in and of itself calls on folks to be aware of a doctrine. Were it not for the sponsor, that could easily be a theistic organization calling on folks to read the Bible, as opposed to taking someone else`s word for its wording and correct interpretation.
  97. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:25 pm
    Now, in an attempt to drive home my point:

    This:


    Is just as offensive as this:



    and, both are just as stupid as this:


  98. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:29 pm
    Actually, Freedom From Religion Foundation has a lot of recruitment billboards.

    Here is a link: FFRF Billboards Page
  99. Profile photo of El_Chinche
    El_Chinche Male 18-29
    546 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:29 pm
    I`ll give him the benefit of the doubt davymid, I`ve just been around the worst of christianity, the southern ultra conservative religious right wing, so long that this vid hit a little close to home for me. At least I got out of there as soon as I could. and truth be told, other than their, racism, homo-phobia, xeno-phobia, general ignorance and anti-intellectual beliefs, they are decent folks as long as you keep the conversation casual, like with elkingo. Now back to the incoherent back and forth bickering.

    ahem...You`re opinions are wrong elkingo and blah, blah, blah something blasphemous, blah blah, blah here`s a funny cat gif





    blah, blah, blah I`m out. You`re clearly the most stubborn person here, so congratulations? I guess you win whatever this was. I genuinely hope you had fun. I now I manged to kill a few hours so thanks for that.
  100. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:32 pm
    Lol El Chinche, maybe people would treat you better if you weren`t such an ass? Insulting people never wins you anything. I did nothing to you to be treated with disrespect, aside from disagree with you. If people disagreeing with you bothers you that much, I recommend seeing a therapist.
  101. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:33 pm
    "Offensive" is subjective. I would argue that an antitheist would be more likely offended by the Reverend Briggs, while a fundamentalist Christian would be more likely offended by the atheist.org billboard. Though, that is entirely my opinion. Both would likely be offended by the third.
  102. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:35 pm
    @biscuitbaske -- Exactly what I was meaning on the offensive one, although all three offend me at least somewhat. Lol.
  103. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:37 pm
    As for the Freedom from Religion Foundation, I gather based on the tone of their messages that the intent is the absolute maintenance of separation of Church and State, they quote a number of Christians and a devout Catholic.
  104. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 10:44 pm
    blah, blah, blah I`m out. You`re clearly the most stubborn person here, so congratulations? I guess you win whatever this was. I genuinely hope you had fun. I now I manged to kill a few hours so thanks for that.
    *chokes on an imaginary biscuit* Elkingo is stubborn? Not even close, he`s fairly sensible and moderate, as far as the I-A-B community goes. Wait till you get into a debate with Crakrjak someday. That sh*t will melt your brain. Stubborn? You don`t know stubborn...
  105. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:02 pm
    Atheist version of `persecution`, "Ack, I see the word God, a bible, 10 commandments, (insert any Christian symbol here)... I`m calling a lawyer!"
  106. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:06 pm
    CJ has *perfect* timing.
  107. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:10 pm
    Lol, lillian, it is like someone said Beetlejuice three times... did someone say crackerjak three times???
  108. Profile photo of biscuitbaske
    biscuitbaske Male 18-29
    11 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:18 pm
    Nope, only once. Perhaps he`s davymid`s ultra-conservative alter ego. Like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
  109. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:24 pm
    CrakrJak, you forgot the part where " the word God, a bible, 10 commandments, (insert any Christian symbol here)" is paid for with my tax dollars. Prayer in school? Fine. Prayer in private school? fine. Prayer in public school on the tax payer`s dime? Damn straight I`m calling a lawyer! I am not funding your fairy tale!
  110. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:26 pm
    ...just like you`d be calling a lawyer if your kid was forced to read from the Koran in school.
  111. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:29 pm
    Nope, only once. Perhaps he`s davymid`s ultra-conservative alter ego. Like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
    I wish I was that imaginative. Nope, Crakrjak is Crakrjak, I assure you, he`s not me. He`s about as far away from "me" as I could possibly be. But what brilliant timing. I`m actually lolling.
  112. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:35 pm
    I think all religion and atheism should be kept out of every government and science building.
  113. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 8, 2012 at 11:37 pm
    Does it work with 5cats too? How do we summon him?

    Here kitty kitty..
  114. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 12:06 am
    NottaSpy: Nope, They`ll pretty much go apesh|t anywhere they see it. As evidenced here, nearly anytime a pro-religion post lands on IAB.

    Btw, it was just coincidence that I was awake and poked my head in here. Likely going back to bed soon.
  115. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:23 am
    elkingo, I know you`re going to claim some sort of crazy-assed logical inversion of what I`m about to say, but, for the record:

    An atheist can be anti-theist and still be an atheist. It requires no faith to be an atheist, nor does it require your use of "faith".

    Further, just for discussion`s sake, taking an anti-theist stance is a perfectly natural response to oppression, antagonism and persecution. Atheists didn`t start it. We`re very small in number and don`t like to be burned at the stake. Atheists have made NO laws limiting free (personal) religious practice or personal prayer (contrary to popular belief). Religious groups, HAVE, however, sought to limit religion by law (see: Christian groups prevent construction of Mosque).

    An atheist may defend him/herself in an anti-theist manner, but that doesn`t mean s/he believes in God or any "greater" power. And that belief/certainty that there is no god is ALL that`s needed to be an at
  116. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:23 am
    atheist. Period.

    (damn character counter is wrong...)
  117. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:27 am
    "Atheist version of `persecution`, `Ack, I see the word God, a bible, 10 commandments, (insert any Christian symbol here)... I`m calling a lawyer!`"

    Did you watch the video, CJ? You`re so full of poo on this one that it`s not even worth the effort. There have been NO LAWS that have limited religious expression or freedoms. NONE! Except, oh, whoopsie, where Christians legally prevent Mosques from being built. As for anything else, name one, with sources, where free personal expression or practice of religion was taken away. Ever.
  118. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:59 am
    Ongoing intolerance will continue as long as we allow it, by exercising it. We can prevent it by choosing to love one another and exercising it more in our speech and ways.
  119. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 5:39 am
    TheGuySmiley, I agree. The problem is that, as a minority group, atheists are pretty powerless to affect much change of the type that you suggest on a grand scale (say, for example, on the scale of 80+% of the US population who self-identify as Christian). Plus, it`s not like we started it! I realize that might sound petty, but, when you`re a member of a group that represents less than 5% of the population, and you constantly see and deal wit crud like is outlined on this video, how else is one supposed to react. It`s not like it`s an occasional thing. So, yeah, eventually people get pissed off and start putting up signs of their own, start slapping Darwin fishes and Flying Spaghetti Monsters on their cars. It`s a very natural and understandable reaction.
  120. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 6:47 am
    SmagBoy1: I see your point, but still, two wrongs don`t make a right. Who started it doesn`t matter, and what matters most is that we all live and learn to exercise love toward one another.

    We should be listening for the lessons of love we can learn from each other and be eager to teach them. When people are more interested in puffing themselves up, looking for ways to mock, socrn, and belittle others, they are not a path of love. That`s a path that`s been proven to not only causes problems for those who traverse it, but a lot of other people that cross paths with them.

    In this world, the path of love is like walking on the ridge of a mountain, where one step to the left or right can result in a fall. It`s exactly like how Christ said the path is narrow. Even if we fall, we can still get up and walk it. But the more people who choose to avoid that trail, the more we`ll continue to see all the things the world could do without.

    Walk with love!
  121. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:22 am
    elkingo:

    Those two billboards may well be equally offensive to different people, but there is an objective difference. The anti-Christian one is provably true. The anti-atheism one is provably untrue.
  122. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2514 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:26 am
    I like how they kept repeating specific segments of the video as if we were too dense to get it the first time.
  123. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:35 am
    Who started it doesn`t matter, and what matters most is that we all live and learn to exercise love toward one another.

    A nice sentiment, but reality requires some degree of practicality. Love is not all you need. There`s a whole slew of things, starting with not being murdered and going on up through the necessities of living (water, food, shelter, etc), then into social things such as freedom from oppression, equal treatment under the law, etc.

    Then there`s the issue of what `love` means. I don`t think it`s what you use it for - an irritating tool for promoting a particular set of control freakery based on obedience to ancient stories that contradict themselves and reality. I`m quite sure it`s not that at all.

    I don`t love religion. I don`t even like it. Even at it`s "best", I dislike it. It`s a danger to humanity even when it isn`t openly oppressive and evil.
  124. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:36 am
    Tell you what, TheGuySmiley, you fix these (link to laws specifically discriminating against atheists/agnostics) and I`ll absolutely strive to walk with love toward my Christian brothers and sisters.
  125. Profile photo of ggolbez
    ggolbez Male 18-29
    1933 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:59 am
    I am the only atheist I know (outside the internet, of course). I have brought it up to only a few people. After I do, though, their attitude changes dramatically to me. Some are abrasive, some just keep an arms distance. But I have NEVER had a good outcome from telling people my lack of faith.

    Does that mean I should just shut up about it? For my personal life, yes. Does that make it right? No. It`s a travesty that I have to live in fear because my mind operates on logic.
  126. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:19 am
    @SmagBoy1 -- "An atheist can be anti-theist and still be an atheist. It requires no faith to be an atheist, nor does it require your use of "faith".

    Further, just for discussion`s sake, taking an anti-theist stance is a perfectly natural response to oppression, antagonism and persecution. Atheists didn`t start it. We`re very small in number and don`t like to be burned at the stake. Atheists have made NO laws limiting free (personal) religious practice or personal prayer (contrary to popular belief). Religious groups, HAVE, however, sought to limit religion by law (see: Christian groups prevent construction of Mosque)."

    Which is what I was arguing from post #1.


  127. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:20 am
    "An atheist may defend him/herself in an anti-theist manner, but that doesn`t mean s/he believes in God or any "greater" power. And that belief/certainty that there is no god is ALL that`s needed to be an atheist. Period."

    Here is where I disagree with you. I am not saying the have belief in a higher power, but I am saying they equate to that belief in their actions. How does that confuse you?
  128. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:23 am
    @ggolbez -- I am truly sorry people have treated you that way.
  129. Profile photo of pumba62
    pumba62 Male 40-49
    1018 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:33 am
    what people need to do is realize that not everyone thinks the same way and and not everyone views life and death with the same passion.
    My goal in, and this is MY personal goal, is to be tolerant,understanding,and forgiving,and realize that not everyone has the same opinions or beliefs as I, and the it is not my job to prove what is right or wrong.
    Just because you don`t see something does not mean it does not exist.
    If anything I would rather see this planet rid itself of religion not spirituality!
  130. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:33 am
    Here is what I am arguing from the opposite side, and why it is so important to me.

    Me being Christian does not require that I force my beliefs onto others, nor does it require that I tear down other beliefs (e.g. I have no need to attack Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism).

    Because in general, the Christians who do these sort of things, do not make it okay for an atheist to go militant (or anti-theist for that matter) because Christians have.

    Muslims are probably the most militant group on the planet, yet 100% of anti-theist attacks are toward Christians. Tell everyone your an atheist in America, and they "pray for you till it hurts"; go to the middle east and tell people you are an atheist, and they behead you on live TV.

    Extremism isn`t useful to humans in any form, and is also a poor representation of that faith. Why would atheists need to sloop down to that level?
  131. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 9:00 am
    "Muslims are probably the most militant group on the planet..."

    Amazing. :-(
  132. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 9:09 am
    @SmagBoy1 -- out of everything I said... that is all you got?
  133. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 9:16 am
    @SmagBoy1 I refuse to get into another semantics argument over a vague statement I made, but I recommend you google the following terms:

    Shi`ite
    Iran
    Lebanon
    Taliban
    Afghanistan

    However, and before you take my line of thought out of context: In all religions, including Islam, the militants are a minority.
  134. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:10 am
    "Muslims are probably the most militant group on the planet,"
    Not sure about the validity of this statement, but you are most definitely talking about Muslims in the middle east, not American Muslims who would most directly affect other Americans.

    "yet 100% of anti-theist attacks are toward Christians."
    Not true. You only view it this way because you`re a Christian. People will take attacks on religion in general to be attacks on their own personal religion when in reality they are for all religions. Also, you are looking at it from a western point of view. In the US, the majority of people are Christians. Most political leaders are Christians. Our laws that favor a specific religion favor Christianity. So for atheists in America, we have to focus on Christianity more than other religions because it`s the dominant religion that`s persecuting us.
  135. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:18 am
    @Lillian, which other religions call the creator "God"?
  136. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:27 am
    elkingo, a lot of people use "god" to mean any god. "Allah" actually means god, it`s just in another language. One example is Jewish people call their god God as well (Allah and the Jewish god is the same god as the Christian god actually, just with slightly different stories). Also, I`m only assuming what you mean by that question, because it`s not like every atheist argument talks about "God" or "Yahweh".
  137. Profile photo of Nickel2
    Nickel2 Male 50-59
    5879 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:32 am
    Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
    As a non-American, but capable of reading the English language, I have just had a look at the American Constitution. As I understand it, all American citizens have the freedom to carry out their own religion regardless of how wonderful or foolish it may appear to any other person. Isn`t this called the first constitution? The law of the land? Does each and every American have the right to change the law to suit their own beliefs and purposes?
    The bickering I see here makes me glad that:
    a. I am not an American citizen.
    b. I have no religion, but do have beliefs.
  138. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:46 am
    Yes... god means any god.

    However, and this may be news for you, God means the Christian Creator.

    Spot the difference?
  139. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:49 am
    I know not every Atheist argument does that, but at least 50% of the billboards in question under this link do. The other 50% of billboards mimic Christian art.

    I was just trying to understand how this statement, "People will take attacks on religion in general to be attacks on their own personal religion when in reality they are for all religions." could possibly mean other religions when the argument is always against God.

    You clarified by saying that it was also against Jewish people, and that Muslims refer to God also through extrapolation. Silly me.
  140. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:55 am
    Lillian: Atheists don`t go after muslims because they are scared of them. Atheists know they have nothing to fear from Christians, we are easier targets.

    Face it, if Christians were as `militant` as muslims are, we wouldn`t be hearing a peep out of you. When it comes to putting your cross-hairs on religion you anti-theist atheists are cowardly.
  141. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 11:10 am
    " but at least 50% of the billboards in question under this link do. The other 50% of billboards mimic Christian art. "
    I`m not talking about only billboards. And these statistics are completely made up so I`m not going to argue with you.

    "when the argument is always against God. "
    You`re asserting that it`s always against "God" because you`re a Christian and you view attacks on any religion as an attack on your god. Not every argument is about your god. However, it`s more likely for the attacks to be against your religion for reasons I`ve already stated.

    "Atheists don`t go after muslims because they are scared of them. Atheists know they have nothing to fear from Christians, we are easier targets. "
    Muslims aren`t persecuting atheist Americans, so there`s less reason to talk about Muslims. Also, there /are/ people who attack Islam. Just because you don`t see it doesn`t mean it doesn`t happen.
  142. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7596 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 11:51 am
    Crakr- you are an idiot. Many many atheists object more to Islam than to Christianity because of its gender inequality- and a very short check would prove this to you. The world does not begin and end in the US, however- most atheist do not bother about religion because it simply does not matter enough to show up on their radar. Most educated people do not really believe in God, not in 1st world countries anyway, which is why religion is dying off. Don`t believe me- go check.
  143. Profile photo of Langer
    Langer Male 18-29
    394 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 12:18 pm
    [quote">Lillian: Atheists don`t go after muslims because they are scared of them. Atheists know they have nothing to fear from Christians, we are easier targets. [/quote">

    i`ll let Dara O`Brien take this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPLfv9umERU

    skip to around 1:20 to get right to the point, but you`ll miss the first stage clip :/
  144. Profile photo of nayrbarr
    nayrbarr Male 18-29
    366 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 12:57 pm
    America, you`ve actually come further than I though in being able to make a video like this. Good luck to you American Atheists, it`s only a matter of time before these idiots figure it out.
  145. Profile photo of artmunki
    artmunki Male 30-39
    176 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 1:09 pm
    Crakr - once more you confuse your own biased beliefs with actual fact. The simple truth is that the vast majority of outspoken atheists online live in, and were brought up in countries where Christianity is the predominant religion. And in fact, a great number of them were brought up *as* Christians. Therefore Christianity is the religion they know most about, and the one they are most able to accurately criticise. Unlike most religious polemicists, most genuine atheists tend to avoid voicing opinions about controversial subjects they know nothing about.

    There are undoubtedly plenty of atheists who live in predominantly Muslim countries, and who were brought up as Muslims, but they are rightly afraid to speak up about it, as the level of religious intolerance in those countries is far more dangerous than in any Western nation.
  146. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 1:26 pm
    Yes... god means any god.

    However, and this may be news for you, God means the Christian Creator.

    Spot the difference?

    Arrogant, condescending, illogical and provably wrong. Well done, you`re being a perfect theist!

    `God` will almost certainly mean the Christian god *to an English-speaking Christian*. It`s just a matter of capitalisation indicating importance in English. To any English-speaking monotheist, their god is God, regardless of which god it is. It will also be true for some other languages, depending on how the language uses capitalisation.
  147. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    Atheists don`t go after muslims because they are scared of them. Atheists know they have nothing to fear from Christians, we are easier targets.

    Face it, if Christians were as `militant` as muslims are, we wouldn`t be hearing a peep out of you. When it comes to putting your cross-hairs on religion you anti-theist atheists are cowardly.

    Since CrakrJak is the Great Wise One, we should follow where his wisdom leads...

    ...which would mean that atheists should violently oppress Christians as much as possible, to suppress them through fear. Equally obvious from CrakrJak`s line of argument is that every theist should violently oppress everyone who isn`t the same kind of theist.

    While is true that violent oppression to suppress dissent through fear is often effective, it`s not generally considered a reasonable course of action and it`s very damaging to civilisation.

    Also, you probably won`t win anyway.
  148. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 1:39 pm
    Angilion: Love is described as being patient, kind, truthful, unselfish, trusting, believing, hopeful, and enduring. It is not jealous, boastful, arrogant, rude, selfish, or angry. True love never fails. This is what God`s love toward us is like, and should be the way we love each other and God. However, to date, only Christ perfectly fulfills this biblical definition of love. But this does not mean we can`t try, because the more we try the better we become. The Bible says that this unconditional love is more important than everything else since love will be the basis of eternal life. In fact, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, He said, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND." He then added that the second most important law was "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOUR AS YOURSELF." He said the entire law was dependent upon these two commandments. Take it as you will.
  149. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 2:10 pm
    It really doesn`t matter that what he is talking about didn`t come from English, but rather Hebrew. It is impossible to talk to Angilion about matters of theology or history. Simply because he knows nothing about history, and despises all theology. I will not waste my time responding to him.

    "`God` will almost certainly mean the Christian god *to an English-speaking Christian*. It`s just a matter of capitalisation indicating importance in English. To any English-speaking monotheist, their god is God, regardless of which god it is. It will also be true for some other languages, depending on how the language uses capitalisation."

  150. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 3:50 pm
    Lillian: Muslims do indeed persecute atheists, as well as every other religion`s believers. In countries like Iran, Pakistan and a growing number of other muslim countries they are killing apostates and preachers.

    artmunki: There are few ex-muslim atheists, most of them get stoned or honor killed before they can get away. That`s one thing about Christians, we don`t go around routinely killing those for their differing beliefs.

    If you two want to really see what persecution is ask some Christians living in muslim countries what it`s like living in a place where owning a bible is an imprisonable offense and likely carries the death penalty.
  151. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 3:58 pm
    No wonder reason is absent from every single argument CrakrJak makes. Of course Atheist`s billboards in the U.S. mainly target Christians. They know who their audience. CrakrJak must wonder why Atheists aren`t putting up billboards that say, "You know Enki doesn`t really watch over Eridu"
  152. Profile photo of LillianDulci
    LillianDulci Female 18-29
    2674 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:01 pm
    Learn to read, CJ. I said: "Muslims aren`t persecuting atheist Americans" I`m not talking about atheists living in other countries. I`m talking about atheists living in America. Muslim Americans are a really small minority and they aren`t persecuting anyone.
  153. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:02 pm
    "countries like Iran, Pakistan and a growing number of other muslim countries"
    "Christians living in muslim countries"

    So Muslims in OTHER countries persecute Athiests, exactly why would that be cause for putting up billboards HERE?
  154. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 4:21 pm
    Orly?

    American Muslims Stone Christians in Dearborn, MI

    That happened rather recently. Just saying.
  155. Profile photo of CrakrJak
    CrakrJak Male 40-49
    17514 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 5:54 pm
    Lillian: Do some research about Dearborn, Michigan`s muslims and how they are taking over there, posting signs saying "Sharia Law Zone" and such. Maybe you`ll begin to understand what the muslims objectives in the USA really are.

    "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers" - Tayyip Erdogan

    “The West may have the atom bomb, we have the human bomb.” - Sheikh Youssef al-Qaradawi

    Liberals feign tolerance of muslims so as to be seen as `secular`, but attack Christians to seem `intellectual`. It`s a hypocrisy that actually makes you atheists seem stupid.
  156. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:01 pm
    F*ck. God, Allah, Yahweh, whatever you want to call him. He`s the god of the three main Abrahamic religions. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, all the same god. I know that`s hard for some Christians (especially indoctrinated Islamphobics like Crakrjak) to swallow, but there it is. The Torah, the Q`ran, the Bible, are all from the same source. Same God.

    Sure, Christians will say "but Jesus said!!" and Muslims will say "but Mohammed said!!" and the Jews will be ambivalent about both.

    But the fact remains, that God the Father, is the same guy, no matter what *SUBSEQUENT* religion you pertain to, or happen to have been born into (much more likely).
  157. Profile photo of davymid
    davymid Male 30-39
    12140 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:01 pm
    I can`t speak for any other atheist apart from myself, but I treat each with the exact same level of credence that I give to Odin, Thor, Jupiter, or for that matter Santa Claus. Atheism is a refusal to believe in that which has no evidence.

    I don`t hate God, Allah, Yahweh (same guy), any more than I hate Vampires. Nor do I hate Christians, Muslims, or Jews, or Vampire-believing moonbats. I just don`t believe in any of it. No evidence. It`s pretty simple.
  158. Profile photo of artmunki
    artmunki Male 30-39
    176 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:10 pm
    Crakr - as usual, you completely fail to give any response to my pointing out the fallacy of your previous claim, suggesting that, once again, you know you were wrong (but can`t ever admit that). Instead of which, you turn my comment about atheists in Muslim countries into your own anti-Muslim rhetoric. Yes, there are extremist Muslims all over the world. We have our share here in the UK too. And is it really any wonder that Muslim extremism in the west is on the increase, when western governments seem to keen to give them every reason to feel persecuted in their own home countries? But guess what - there are plenty of Christian extremist groups too. And Hindu. Even Buddhist. Every religion provokes extremism, because there will always be some zealots who take their beliefs too far, and gullible fools to follow them. That`s exactly how all religions work, after all - someone who can talk a good game in front, and plenty of sheep to follow them.
  159. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:14 pm
    Love is described as being patient, kind, truthful, unselfish, trusting, believing, hopeful, and enduring. It is not jealous, boastful, arrogant, rude, selfish, or angry. True love never fails. This is what God`s love toward us is like

    You claim to be a Christian, yet you are obviously ignorant of Christianity. I suggest you start correcting that by reading at least one translation of the Christian bible. I mean read it by yourself, not guided by a revisionist twisting weird "interpretations" out of it (e.g. the story of Abraham and Isaac being an example of your god`s mercy).

    In fact, I urge everyone to do that. It`s the best way to promote atheism, because the Christian bible is full of foulness. Love? Not so much and only if you appease the jealous, boastful, arrogant, rude, selfish and angry (and mass-murdering torturer) gang leader that is your god. The most depraved Roman emperor has nothing on him.
  160. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:16 pm
    Davy -- the argument isn`t about the Abrahamic God being the same person, it is more about the assertion that Angilion and Lillian are making that every monotheistic god is the exact same as the Abrahamic God and is even called the same -- God.

    Jewish people call him Yahweh.
    Christians call him God.
    Muslims call him Allah.

    Not the same as calling him simply God.

    Nor are there any other monotheistic religions that call the creator "God."

    Which, in an attempt to steer this back on topic is important, because the billboards specifically say "God." Now if this is a target towards Christians, that is one thing. But, making the claim that it is toward other monotheistic religions needs at least some better research other than, "Lol all religious people call god God!! Don`t be silly, god is God is god... they are all the same!"
  161. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:22 pm
    It really doesn`t matter that what he is talking about didn`t come from English, but rather Hebrew. It is impossible to talk to Angilion about matters of theology or history. Simply because he knows nothing about history, and despises all theology. I will not waste my time responding to him.

    I applaud your attempt to draw attention away from how wrong you are by insulting me. It`s futile, but it`s the only course of action you had left and you made a good crack at it.

    Incidentally, `god` can only reliably be traced back to Old English, which makes it a Germanic word and thus extremely unlikely to have any roots in Hebrew. So you`re even wrong about the way in which you are wrong. It wouldn`t matter anyway, since the point is the use of the word in English. English has Anglicised many words from various languages.

    You`re right to avoid responding to me. You`re not up to it.
  162. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:25 pm
    it is more about the assertion that Angilion and Lillian are making that every monotheistic god is the exact same as the Abrahamic God

    An assertion that neither of us made.

    You seem to be making things up on an ad hoc basis to suit whatever you want to be true at any given moment. Perhaps your theism is affecting your thinking even more than usual.
  163. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 7:45 pm
    Angilion: if your posts weren`t so full of bias/prejudice, or what seems like anger, i bet you could excel at love too. It`s easy if you try!
  164. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:04 pm
    Muslim Americans are a really small minority and they aren`t persecuting anyone.

    Yes they are, just on a smaller scale because they have less power. So far. It`ll get much worse. Islam is an even more power-orientated religion than Christianity, and that`s saying a lot.
  165. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:09 pm
    TheGuySmiley: You obviously don`t know what love is, nor do you know what facts or reasoning are. You post irrelevancies and untruths and you don`t respond to anything.

    You could try having some content in your posts, but that`s not easy when your position is irrational and has no connection to reality. Assuming you have a position, of course. You have some soundbites and some trite irrelevancies, but that`s not a position.
  166. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:12 pm
    Angilion - The capitalization of the word God comes from the Hebrew tradition to capitalize Yahweh. In the original Hebrew, it was written YHWH with no vowels. When the Bible was translated, instances of YHWH were either written God or Lord -- with the last three letters being miniature capitals.

    So far as I know, Christianity is the only religions aside from Judaism that writes "God" and not "god" in reference to the creator. Considering that Muslims write Allah.
  167. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:14 pm
    Jewish people call him Yahweh.
    Christians call him God.
    Muslims call him Allah.

    You`re wrong about that too. Most of the Muslims I`ve spoken with called their god `God`, because they were speaking English at the time. That may be because I`ve been speaking with the reasonable Muslims and not the nutjob Muslims, but it does show that it`s not true that all Muslims always use Arabic.
  168. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:16 pm
    @Angilion, "An assertion that neither of us made."

    hmm, funny you say that.

    Angilion, "To any English-speaking monotheist, their god is God, regardless of which god it is."

    And, in response to "@Lillian, which other religions call the creator "God"?"

    Lillian stated, "elkingo, a lot of people use "god" to mean any god."

    You need to become a little more clear. So, which other monotheistic religions call their creator "God"?
  169. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:18 pm
    "Most of the Muslims I`ve spoken with called their god `God`"

    So? WTF does that have to do with the point on this argument. What OTHER religions, beside from Abrahamic religions call the creator "God"?

    We can argue in circles all damn night, but your still not providing an indication that other religions do so.
  170. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:21 pm
    The capitalization of the word God comes from the Hebrew tradition to capitalize Yahweh. In the original Hebrew, it was written YHWH with no vowels. When the Bible was translated, instances of YHWH were either written God or Lord -- with the last three letters being miniature capitals.

    Now that`s actually a decent argument. I can`t refute it off the top of my head. The old copy of the Christian bible I have lying around here somewhere is as you describe. Well, not `miniature capitals`. They`re the same size as the lower case text, with the normal capitals a little larger. But that`s a trivial detail.

    However, it doesn`t change the meaning of capitalisation in English. You even do it yourself, e.g.:

    Considering that Muslims write Allah.

    See how you capitalised `Allah`? It`s not a personal name, any more than `god` is.
  171. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:23 pm
    So? WTF does that have to do with the point on this argument.

    It`s the whole point, given that the argument was that ONLY Christians call their god `God`, with a capital `G`. That was the supporting argument for the position that any reference to `God` applies ONLY to the Christian god and Christianity.

    It`s the whole point of the whole argument. If you really think it has nothing to do with the argument, then you clearly have no idea what the argument is.
  172. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:27 pm
    Angilion -- are we back in circles?

    "god" means sentient creator type deity.

    "God" means the Abrahamic "God", also known as Yahweh, Allah, El-Shaddi, Jehovah, etc.
  173. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:29 pm
    every monotheistic god is the exact same as the Abrahamic God

    and

    To any English-speaking monotheist, their god is God, regardless of which god it is.

    are not the same thing. Not even close. You are completely wrong.
  174. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:29 pm
    Okay, so you want to go down that road.. that God means Muslim God...

    The billboards were placed in the "buckle" of the Bible belt.

    How many Muslims live there that it would be targeted to them specifically?

    Since, you couldn`t name other religions that "God" applied to, can you at least tell me what percentage of the population in the region they make up?
  175. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:30 pm
    "every monotheistic god is the exact same as the Abrahamic God


    and

    To any English-speaking monotheist, their god is God, regardless of which god it is.


    are not the same thing. Not even close. You are completely wrong."

    Okay then, last time I will ask you: What other monotheistic religions are you talking about?
  176. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:31 pm
    Or are you asserting that the only English-speaking monotheists are either Jewish, Christian, or Muslim?
  177. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    Or... are you taking it down a different road and plan on making argue the difference between the words "any" and "every"?

    Lmao.
  178. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 9:21 pm
    Angilion: If you truly understand love, and the importance of love, why is it so hard to detect in your replies? Why resort to prejudices, biases, judgements, and assumptions?
  179. Profile photo of NottaSpy
    NottaSpy Male 40-49
    881 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 10:06 pm
    Typical TheGuySmiley post: blah blah love blah blah blah love blah blah blah.

    TheGuySmiley, we resort to prejudices, biases, judgements, and assumptions because we are human and that is what all humans do, even you. Those qualities have been demonized, but they are very important for our survival. You post as if you are above those qualities, but your aren`t. You seem like you are trying to live without those qualities, which in naive, just like your fake enlightenment posts about love. Unfortunately you seem to have deluded yourself to the point that my post will probably seem non-sensical and evil. I accept that because there is little hope for you or CrakrJak. But there are people who don`t post and just read. If they aren`t as lost as you, then my hope is this topic will make them think. I`m sure Angilion`s posts have that effect. Thinking is, and always has been, the best way to do away with religion (all religions).
  180. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    September 9, 2012 at 11:46 pm
    People think Dawkins is smart because he speaks with an English accent.
  181. Profile photo of KtySpix
    KtySpix Male 18-29
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:10 am
    Is it really that bad in the US?
  182. Profile photo of TheGuySmiley
    TheGuySmiley Male 18-29
    1243 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 3:14 am
    NottaSpy: You can live the way you prefer, but there are people who choose to walk uprightly. While you are right that none are perfect, by no means is the path of love an impossible one to traverse. Success on that road is being able to pick yourself up and humbly get back on to it if you fall off, regardless of how many times you`ve fallen. On the other hand, there are those who fall off it and decide it`s too much, or not worth their effort, or even those who have disregarded the narrow path of love completely.

    The point is, why resort to prejudices, biases, judgements, and assumptions, when we can resort to love and live as God commands us? Think for a moment: If the world needs more love, and we know mankind will only succeed if we have peace and harmony based on love, why not exercise love?
  183. Profile photo of Justin9235
    Justin9235 Male 18-29
    1582 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 5:27 am
    "Is it really that bad in the US?"

    Maybe in small towns, or heavy ignorant places, but I`ve never once seen someone persecuted for not believing in something. Perhaps questioned, but never put down. Most people don`t care what you believe either way, and those that do just make a snide remark to which you go "... drat off non-nice individual"
  184. Profile photo of kangoala
    kangoala Male 18-29
    702 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 5:54 am
    `Bout time.
  185. Profile photo of TomFromMD
    TomFromMD Male 30-39
    1 post
    September 10, 2012 at 6:00 am
    @elkingo: Sikhs, Bahai, Zoroastrians, and Cao Dai will refer to God as God when speaking in English. I don`t know of any monothestic religions that won`t use "God". If there are any, they`re tiny.
  186. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:31 am
    Tom..

    Sikhs call God Waheguru, while in Baha`i they refer to him as Bahá, Alláh-u-Abhá, Yá Bahá`u`l-Abhá, Bahá`u`lláh, Bahá`i, Ishwar in Hindi, Dieux in French and Dios in Spanish. Zoroastrians refer to him as Ahura Mazda.

    Now, I will concede that they may also call him "God" from time to time and depending on context and location and language. Save that Baha`i always pronounce it in Arabic.

    However, we aren`t talking about Asia or Iran.. we are talking about Alabama... so I don`t know exactly how many will see the message
  187. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:33 am
    Sorry got cut off, links took up the character count, eh?

    I don`t know how many will see the message on those billboards from those religions, but I wager it is an insignificant amount.

    I am so adamant about that detail because my opposition would have you believe that the billboards posted in Alabama and other Bible Belt areas are not specifically targeted to Christians.

    The thing that really gets me, is that it is okay if they are, it just makes them anti-theist and not atheist.

  188. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:34 am
    Thanks for the post Tom. =) I enjoyed refreshing myself on those religions. XD
  189. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:38 am
    Hi, what did I miss?
  190. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:08 am
    Those primitive superstitious stone age religions really are something to fear. The faith based ignorance of th christian majority is behaving much like the half baked arabs in the middle east. Democracy can not exist hand in hand with religion. There must be a separation of church and state. If there is none you get the Middle East!
  191. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 10:33 am
    madest: "When atheists donate to an atheist cause they are no longer atheists."

    That statement is utter nonsense. Donating to a cause does not make you suddenly believe in a god or gods.

    elkingo: "Lol El Chinche, maybe people would treat you better if you weren`t such an ass? Insulting people never wins you anything."

    IRONY. METER. BLOWN.

    Also, you should probably stop using the word "faith" if you want to talk about this, because you`re using the different definitions interchangeably. Conflating those definitions is a fallacy of equivocation.

    Put the words "belief in God", or "trust", or whatever you really mean in place of your previous usages of the word "faith", and you`ll see you`re talking about completely different things as though they were the exact same thing.
  192. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:16 am
    @HiEv


  193. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:18 am
    I explained this once, but you know.. doing it 5-10 times is good too.

    When I used the term "faith" I put it in quotation marks like so.

    I also went back and explained that I did so because they were similar.

    I never once claimed that donating to a cause = faith in a super natural being.

    Seriously? How is that confusing?
  194. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:33 am
    elkingo: "Me being Christian does not require that I force my beliefs onto others, nor does it require that I tear down other beliefs (e.g. I have no need to attack Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism)."

    Well, technically, it does require it, assuming you follow the laws in the Bible.

    The First Commandment specifically says that you should, "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, and cut down their Asherah poles." (Exodus 34:13, and this is the only version of the Ten Commandments that specifically names itself as such, see Exodus 34:28). Heck, just read Deuteronomy 13:6-18, where it tells you to kill family members or even whole towns if they worship other gods.

    Your God is a jealous god, indeed.
  195. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:42 am
    If you truly understand love, and the importance of love, why is it so hard to detect in your replies? Why resort to prejudices, biases, judgements, and assumptions?

    I`m being affected by you, so I`m mirroring you. Which is probably your point. I`m already fairly sure you`re trolling, so more fool me for feeding you.

    Of course, I`m not as full of bias, etc, as you are. Or, more likely, are pretending to be.
  196. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:51 am
    Okay, so you want to go down that road.. that God means Muslim God...

    No, I don`t. You`re making that road, not me.

    My position is that capitalising a reference to an unspecified god does not absolutely and unequivocally make it a reference to Christianity and only Christianity.

    If you want to change your position and claim that it absolutely and unequivocally makes it a reference to Islam and only Islam, that`s up to you. But it won`t have anything to do with me because you`re not me.

    The billboards were placed in the "buckle" of the Bible belt.

    Which means that a very large majority of the theists reading them would be Christians. It doesn`t mean that `God` always in all contexts absolutely and unequivocally only refers to Christianity.
  197. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:57 am
    elkingo: "I never once claimed that donating to a cause = faith in a super natural being."

    But you did agree with Madest, who was apparently saying that. Or am I misinterpreting, "@madest -- I actually agree with your donation statement."?

    "When I used the term "faith" I put it in quotation marks like so."

    Not when you said, "Atheism is simplistically not having faith." That`s simply wrong. You tried to justify that later by using one particular definition of "faith", but that was a different definition of "faith", than the one you used when you said atheists "have "faith" that their beliefs are right". Facepalm all you want, but the fact is you were using different definitions interchangeably. That`s a fallacy of equivocation, and quotation marks don`t get you out of that.

    Understand the confusion now?
  198. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:00 pm
    Those primitive superstitious stone age religions really are something to fear.

    Just for the sake of accuracy, you`re completely wrong about something.

    They`re bronze age religions, not stone age ones. Although Christianity was made up in the iron age and Islam was made up in the medieval period, they`re both modified versions of Judaism, which was made up in the bronze age. So they`re all primitive superstitious bronze age religions that are really something to fear, not primitive superstitious stone age religions that are really something to fear.
  199. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:03 pm
    That`s a fallacy of equivocation, and quotation marks don`t get you out of that.

    I think that in this context they do, because they significantly change the meaning of the word. faith and "faith" have different meanings and are labelled as having different meanings, so I think it`s not a fallacy of equivocation.
  200. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:10 pm
    Regarding the thread`s topic...

    Atheists tried to come up with the LEAST OFFENSIVE atheism ad they could think of to see if it still generated hate mail. They came up with one that just said "Atheists." and listed two atheist organizations.

    The ad was rejected for being "too controversial" or because it could potentially "spark public debate".

    See: "The Most Inoffensive Atheist Bus Ad Ever... Rejected!"

    The same company does and has allowed Christian advertising.
  201. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:30 pm
    Elkingo:

    English-speaking theists of various religions may well often use a different language to refer to their god(s), but they don`t ALWAYS do it.

    It`s your absolutism that grates on me.

    You are asserting that it is NEVER true that any theist other than a Christian uses `God` to refer to the god (or a god) that they believe in.

    You are wrong. English-speaking monotheists often do so because `god` is an English word and capitalisation has a specific meaning in English.

    Here, for example, are English-speaking Sikhs doing so:

    It`s on the front page of sikhs.org. How much more obvious does it have to be before you will stop ignoring it?
  202. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:34 pm
    Angilion: "I think that in this context they do, because they significantly change the meaning of the word. faith and "faith" have different meanings and are labeled as having different meanings, so I think it`s not a fallacy of equivocation."

    No, re-read elkingo`s 9/8/12 11:44:18 AM post.

    Having a belief in a god (the way he used it the 1st and last time there) is not the same thing as having trust in your own beliefs (the way he used it in quotes). He used the same word in two different ways to support the statement that atheists who donate are not atheists, because "faith" in atheism is equivalent to "faith" in God, due to the word "faith". Which is absurd.

    Theists frequently conflate "faith", meaning "belief absent any evidence for that belief", with "faith", meaning "trust", when trying to equate atheism with religion. I find this habit to be annoying and dishonest.
  203. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 12:43 pm
    Regarding "God" vs. "god", the Dictionary.com site says:

    God:
    1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
    2. the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
    3. ( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
    4. ( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.

    (other definitions omitted for space; but they note lowercase uses when appropriate)

    I see nothing there that defines "God" as specifically meaning the Christian deity, and the "God of Islam" reference shows that it CAN be used appropriately for the gods of other religions.

    So, no, it`s not exclusive to Christians.
  204. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    No, I am asking one simple question, that you keep avoiding like the plague.

    I`ll do it in caps this time, and offer no other response, so that maybe you will notice it and respond to it.



    WHAT OTHER RELIGIONS IN THE REGION THAT THE BILLBOARDS WERE PLACED REFER TO THEIR CREATOR AS "God"?
  205. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 3:24 pm
    Here`s your statement:

    Sunday, September 09, 2012 10:46:48 AM
    Yes... god means any god.

    However, and this may be news for you, God means the Christian Creator.

    Spot the difference?

    Here`s a tip for you:

    If you`re going to make untrue statements about what you have posted (so that you can make untrue statements about people who reply), you should at least make sure you go back and delete your post so that it isn`t so easy for people to prove that you`re making untrue statements.
  206. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 3:30 pm
    You didn`t just phrase your post badly, because you went on to repeat it and repeat statements supporting it, saying several times that theists of other religions never call their god `God`. Then you changed your position to acknowledge that Jews and Muslims sometimes do. Then you changed it again to acknowledge that theists of some other religions do. But you also continue to stick to your original claim, which contradicts yourself, and you continue to criticise people for showing that your original claim is wrong, whilst falsely claiming that they are arguing against DIFFERENT claims you`ve made later.

    You`re wrong and you`re dishonest.
  207. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 3:37 pm
    @Angilion -- I meant not to be dishonest. I have argued the same point for three days. In the context of which I speak, the term "God" refers to the Christian creator. The context of which I speak is the region in which we are talking about.

    There are no other religions of significance in the area that call their creator "God".

    You still continue to avoid the question I pose, because you know what the answer is, and you know that I am right in this matter. You can keep dancing around and around and around all you want.

  208. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:12 pm
    Sorry, I couldn`t find a smaller version, but decided to post this anyway.

    Here is religion makeup by leading denomination.



    Note:
    Billboard 1 was placed in Tampa, FL. Religious makeup by percentage in Tampa:
    Protestant, 40%
    Baptist, 9%
    Methodist, 6%
    Pentecostal, 3%
    Roman Catholic, 26%
    Jewish, 3%
    other religions, 3%
    non-religious, 16%
    I suppose they could have been targeting the Jews of the region, although highly unlikely.
  209. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:19 pm
    Billboard 2 was placed in Orange Co, New York.

    Catholics 40%
    Protestants are 30%
    Jews 8.4%,
    Muslims 3.5%
    Buddhists 1%
    and 13% claim no religious affiliation

    Once again.. I suppose the billboard could be targeted toward Jewish or Muslims, but I doubt it.
  210. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:24 pm
    From the actually video, Houston got the third billboard, because and a quote the video, "It`s basically the buckle on the Bible Belt." That specifically targets Christianity, and if you try to argue that, you are being obtuse.

    However, for sake of argument:

    Houston`s religious makeup:

    Evangelical Protestant – 64.4%
    Mainline Protestant – 8.1%
    Orthodox – 0.1%
    Roman Catholic – 21.0%
    Hindu, Sikhs, Buddhists, Muslim, others; 2.0%
    Unclaimed – 4.5%

    Not likely they are targeting the 2% huh?
  211. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:27 pm
    So, in the context I argue, "God" refers to the Christian God, because they are targeting a very specific community of Christians. I already conceded that other religions call the creator "God", although they have more specific names for Him.
  212. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:29 pm
    However, what they call the creator is irrelevant to my point. My point is that the atheists who posted the billboards did so not because they are atheist.

    They did so because they are anti-theists who are targeting Christianity specifically.
  213. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:34 pm
    Now, to go full circle.

    Madest originally posted, "When atheists donate to an atheist cause they are no longer atheists."

    I agree with this post, because they aren`t simply atheists. They are anti-theists.

    Atheism simply has no need to evangelize (I picked that word to bother you, ha!).

    Atheism requires only not having faith in a higher power, or in this case "God".

    When you are required to action, you are doing something out of "faith" (note the damn quotations, because I am not meaning faith in the spiritual sense here -- not going through that poo again!). They have "faith" that their cause has a impact on society. The logical conclusion is that they have become anti-theists. They want to advertise not to spread atheism, because that is silly and not required, nor do they want to advertise to protect innocent atheists. They are advertising because they are something more than atheists; they are
  214. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:36 pm
    ; they are anti-theists.

    The main goal of the advertisement is somewhat dishonest. They are seeking to upset Christians, and to dismantle and/or destroy religion through advertising.

    Anti-theism, not atheism.
  215. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 4:37 pm
    Don`t get me wrong.

    I say everyone has a right to their own beliefs. Even anti-theists.

    They have the right to recruit through "faith" to their cause as much as a Christian has a right to recruit through "faith" for their cause.
  216. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:03 pm
    elkingo: Whether those areas are mostly Christian is irrelevant to whether they were targeting Christians EXCLUSIVELY or not. Your definition that assumes "God" only refers to the Christian deity is demonstrably WRONG.

    Furthermore, all of that is irrelevant because your claim that "100% of anti-theist attacks are toward Christians" is demonstrably FALSE:
    On Billboards, a Bilingual Call to Nonbelievers

    American Atheists` Convention in Des Moines Breaks Record Attendees, Billboards Ignite Discussion
  217. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:10 pm
    @elkingo: Regarding your comments that any donation to an atheist group means you`re anti-theist, that is also absurd. It assumes that atheist groups only exist to attack theists. This is bigoted and false.

    Atheist organizations often exist to give atheists a place to feel safe from bigoted theists, to discuss topics such as separation of church and state issues, and to help educate theists on exactly what atheists really are and what we believe.

    None of that is inherently anti-theist.

    Portraying all atheist groups as anti-theist is exactly the kind of ignorant bigotry that some of these groups exist for the purpose of fighting.

    If you don`t understand that, then you`re part of the problem.
  218. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:20 pm
    @elkingo: (continued from below) Finally, even if you ARE anti-theist, that does not mean that you cannot ALSO be an atheist.

    Therefore, endorsing the idea that anyone you believe is being anti-theist somehow can`t be an atheist anymore is logically absurd. If you can be both things, then becoming one won`t stop you from being the other.

    So you`re wrong that they`re being anti-theist, and even if you were right about that, you`re wrong that that somehow makes them no longer an atheist.

    What you`ve been saying is like saying, "When Christians donate to a Christian cause they are no longer Christians, because now they`re wacko fundamentalists." It assumes that all Christian causes are wacko fundamentalist causes, and denies that people can be both fundamentalists and Christians at the same time.

    See the problem now?
  219. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:41 pm
    @HiEv

    1. The people who placed the billboard placed it in the "buckle of the bible belt". It most definitely targeted Christians.

    2. My definition of the term "God" referring to the Christian deity was initially wrong, but in the context of the areas where the billboards were placed, it most definitely refers to the Christian "God" because there are no other religions represented in the area.

  220. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:43 pm
    3. I don`t make claims that "100% of anti-theist attacks are toward Christians". I make claims that in this link, 100% of the anti-theist attacks are towards Christians.

    4. An atheist donating to an anti-theist group does in fact make them anti-theists. It would be like me donating to the Westborro Church, and claiming I am not a bigot.
  221. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:45 pm
    5. "Atheist organizations often exist to give atheists a place to feel safe from bigoted theists, to discuss topics such as separation of church and state issues, and to help educate theists on exactly what atheists really are and what we believe."

    When the locus of thought involves placing billboards that undermine Christianity or recruit new members -- in an effort to dismantle a religion, then yes, it is anti-theism.

    The billboards in question sought to do just that.

  222. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:46 pm
    5 b. Additionally, atheism doesn`t require organization. It requires non-belief.
  223. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:47 pm
    6. "Portraying all atheist groups as anti-theist is exactly the kind of ignorant bigotry that some of these groups exist for the purpose of fighting. "

    Lol! The groups exist because Christians fight the groups? Which came first, the chicken of the egg? Please.
  224. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:48 pm
    7. "Finally, even if you ARE anti-theist, that does not mean that you cannot ALSO be an atheist."

    I didn`t make that claim. I made the claim that they are something different than a run of the mill atheist. They are anti-theists also.
  225. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:52 pm
    8. "See the problem now?"

    I understand your concern, but I find it illogical.

    If a group is motivated to dismantle a specific religion, then they become activists, zealots, or whatever term you wish to use. Why is the case different for atheists?

    An anti-theist is someone who thinks religion should be dismantled. That thought is seated in a base line of thought focused in atheism. When someone decides to act out, and make attacks towards dismantling a religion, then they are activists. We call that anti-theism. Sorry, it is just a term to define the people. It doesn`t mean anything bad, per se. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
  226. Profile photo of Calderis
    Calderis Male 18-29
    326 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    Seeking to show people who feel isolated and alone in their mistrust of religious dogma, that there are others that feel as they do is not "anti-theist" it`s supportive. Like it or not in the US the majority of people are christian, and if you think there`s not pressure to fit in then you`re a fool. The majority of my family still don`t know my beliefs (or lack thereof) because of the fact that I have no desire to deal with the endless bullpoo. Soon I`ll have a kid and that`s going to change because I refuse to expose my child to the brainwashing I went through as a child(Yes, the indoctrination process and the multitude of ritualistic events throughout childhood are most definitely that).
  227. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 6:57 pm
    (continued)

    Think of it this way. I developed my belief and faith through years of study and personal feelings. Exactly how I expect atheists derived their thoughts.

    Now, that in of itself is me being a Christian, and you being an Atheist. No problems. No arguments among us. I have my beliefs, you have yours.

    ---------------
    Now, lets say a loved one in your family dies. At the funeral, the Westborro idiots show up, and protest like they do best.

    If you found out that I donated $100 to them, would I still be the neighborhood Christian to you? Or would I be something different?

    If the family member was mine instead, and a billboard was put up in front of the church the funeral was held at that read: "God? There is no after life!" I later find out you donated $100 to put that billboard up. Should I still call you an atheist? Or are you something more?


    ------------------------
  228. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:01 pm
    @Calderis -- I don`t buy that they are simply "supportive" billboards. If that were the case, they would not need to mimic Christian art or Christianity at all.

    A supportive billboard might read something like:

    Atheist Support Group (contact information).

    or

    Atheist Study Group. Come study biology with us! (contact number).


    They simply aren`t like that at all. Sorry.
  229. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:09 pm
    Lol.

    The "bilingual call to nonbelievers" link... It is the exact same thing, which further illustrates my point.

    They mimicked Islam and Judaism in Islamic and Judaic communities. Hell the Islamic targeted one is two blocks from a mosque.

    How is that NOT targeted anti-theism?

  230. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:13 pm



    Here is another view of the billboard that is not supposed to be provocational in your second link. Do you notice the Jewish, Christian, and Islamic symbols now that it is larger?

    How is that not provocation and anti-theistic?

    It is very clearly saying, "They are wrong, we are not, join us!"
  231. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:16 pm
    ...

    Maybe you don`t understand what it means to be anti-theistic.

    Here is a linky!

    Anti-theism is simply more than atheism. It is the desire to oppose God, religion, and what not. I don`t see why you have to be so defensive about it.
  232. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:18 pm
    Here is a better article.
  233. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:20 pm
    From the second link, "People who are indifferent to the existence of alleged gods are atheists because they don`t believe in the existence of any gods, but at the same time this indifference prevents them from being anti-theists as well."
  234. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:21 pm
    "Anti-theism requires a couple of specific and additional beliefs: first, that theism is harmful to the believer, harmful to society, harmful to politics, harmful, to culture, etc.; second, that theism can and should be countered in order to reduce the harm it causes. If a person believes these things, then they will likely be an anti-theist who works against theism by arguing that it be abandoned, promoting alternatives, or perhaps even supporting measures to suppress it."
  235. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 7:57 pm
    @elkingo: 1 & 2. So what? That`s irrelevant.

    3. You`ve forgotten or are lying. You clearly said that in your September 09, 2012 8:33:09 AM post (currently on page 5), and you were NOT talking about anything in specific, but of "anti-theist" attacks in general. Nothing there says you were talking about "in this link".

    4. But we were talking about ATHEIST groups, _not_ ANTI-THEIST groups. This makes your point #4 irrelevant.

    5. This assumes that ALL atheist groups are about undermining Christianity or creating more atheists, which is a lie based in ignorance and bigotry.

    5b. Irrelevant, since I never claimed that.

    6. The group exists to fight the ignorance and bigotry relating to atheists, of which you`re demonstrating an abundance of. Asking which came first is an irrelevant red herring.
  236. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:06 pm
    @elkingo: (continued) 7. Maybe you didn`t make that claim directly, but you did support it. You didn`t say, "they are something different than a run of the mill atheist", you explicitly agreed with madest who stated "they are no longer atheists."

    8. "If a group is motivated to dismantle a specific religion"... If your primary assumption is wrong, then anything you state based on the truth of that statement is irrelevant. I`ve explained to you that not all atheist groups are motivated to do that (though some are), therefore the rest of your argument is irrelevant.

    You insist that ALL atheist groups are anti-theist, but you`re simply WRONG. As long as you continue to casually assert this falsehood you`re merely promoting ignorant bigotry.

    You`ve had this pointed out to you many times here already, but you simply ignore this truth.

    Concern for other atheists does not equal anti-theism.
  237. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:17 pm
    @elkingo: (continued 2) You claim there are no "supportive" billboards, but that`s because you interpret any atheism billboard as an attack on Christianity, rather than something directed towards other atheists.

    You`re not alone in this misunderstanding, but that doesn`t make it any less of a misunderstanding.

    I pointed out the bus advertisement that simply said "Atheists" and had atheist organization names and websites. Yet you insist, "They simply aren`t like that at all." Well, in that case you`re right, because the group was denied the right to post something that was even that inoffensive!

    The point of my other two links was that they were to signs that demonstrated that not 100% of atheist signs attacked Christians. Please don`t lie and claim that I posted them as examples of inoffensive signs.

    That said, the one you blew up was targeted at atheists, NOT theists. Try reading it that way.
  238. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:25 pm
    @elkingo: (continued 3) So, I made two separate arguments:

    1) Some signs ARE inoffensive (or try to be but are slapped down anyways) to disprove your claim that all are about attacking theism.

    2) Not all signs target Christianity exclusively, which was another one of your claims (regardless if you try to deny your own words now).

    And so you try to use my examples in #2 to disprove #1?!? That`s simply absurd.

    The existence of atheist signs that may be interpreted by some to be an attack on their religion DOES NOT prove that ALL atheist signs attack religion. It only takes one counterexample to disprove your claim, and I`ve given it to you.

    You`ve totally ignored it, but I still gave it to you.

    Finally, your fixation on anti-theists is irrelevant. Whether it is "more" or less than atheism does not make the terms mutually exclusive. Blindly insisting all atheist groups are anti-theist is BS.
  239. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:35 pm
    You are right, This sentence "Muslims are probably the most militant group on the planet, yet 100% of anti-theist attacks are toward Christians."

    Should have read, "Muslims are probably the most militant group on the planet, yet 100% of anti-theist attacks in the link are toward Christians."

    Sorry, was a bit riled up when I typed that. I get passionate and energetic. That was an honest mistake.
  240. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:36 pm
    This point: 4. An atheist donating to an anti-theist group does in fact make them anti-theists.

    is not irrelevant, this is the main argument I pose in the whole thread.
  241. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    We were talking about "atheist" groups, because the people in the link claim to be atheists.
  242. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:38 pm
    "5. This assumes that ALL atheist groups are about undermining Christianity or creating more atheists, which is a lie based in ignorance and bigotry. "

    Incorrect. They simply do not have to do that. If they do, they are anti-theist.
  243. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:39 pm
    "6. The group exists to fight the ignorance and bigotry relating to atheists, of which you`re demonstrating an abundance of. Asking which came first is an irrelevant red herring."

    Bullsh|t. I would no more make a group that defends me against gargoyles preemptively than an atheist would make a preemptive defense group just "in case".
  244. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:41 pm
    7. Maybe you didn`t make that claim directly, but you did support it. You didn`t say, "they are something different than a run of the mill atheist", you explicitly agreed with madest who stated "they are no longer atheists."

    How do you know he didn`t mean they are anti-theists as well?
  245. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:45 pm
    8. But, I don`t insist that all atheists groups are anti-theist.

    The ones this link analyze, however, are.

    "Concern for other atheists does not equal anti-theism."

    Once again, I don`t make this claim. That seems rather ambiguous.
  246. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:47 pm
    "You claim there are no "supportive" billboards, but that`s because you interpret any atheism billboard as an attack on Christianity, rather than something directed towards other atheists."

    I still assert that, and you are ignoring the facts. The facvts remain that the billboards provided in this link either mimic Christian art, or use the term "God" in a region that it could only mean the Christian God.

    I don`t see why a lack of belief requires acknowledging a specific belief in order to garner support for others who share the initial belief.



  247. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:49 pm
    How is the billboard I blew up (September 10, 2012 7:13:49 PM) not an Atheist one?
  248. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:51 pm
    "@elkingo: (continued 3) So, I made two separate arguments:

    1) Some signs ARE inoffensive (or try to be but are slapped down anyways) to disprove your claim that all are about attacking theism.

    2) Not all signs target Christianity exclusively, which was another one of your claims (regardless if you try to deny your own words now).

    And so you try to use my examples in #2 to disprove #1?!? That`s simply absurd.

    The existence of atheist signs that may be interpreted by some to be an attack on their religion DOES NOT prove that ALL atheist signs attack religion. It only takes one counterexample to disprove your claim, and I`ve given it to you.

    You`ve totally ignored it, but I still gave it to you.

    Finally, your fixation on anti-theists is irrelevant. Whether it is "more" or less than atheism does not make the terms mutually exclusive. Blindly insisting all atheist groups are anti-theist is BS."

    I don`t make
  249. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 8:53 pm
    (cont) make this claims.

    I do not assert that all atheist organizations are anti-theistic. I do assert that being an atheist does not require organization, and that indifference is the usual feelings.

    I don`t claim that all anti-theistic attacks are on Christians.
  250. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 9:01 pm
    "How is the billboard I blew up (September 10, 2012 7:13:49 PM) not an Atheist one?"

    Sorry, that was misleading.. I mean.. How is it not targeted towards religious people? It CLEARLY has religious symbolism in it. You think that when that is above a road that a Jew, Christian, or Muslim drives down, they WON`T notice their religions symbolism, and think, "They are saying my beliefs are wrong specifically"?
  251. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 9:07 pm



    If it looked like this, would Atheists find it offensive?
  252. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 9:09 pm
    Careful... what if I said it didn`t target atheists, that it was for Christians only.
  253. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 10:31 pm
    I just realized this forum just made page 2... which means it is all but dead now. I just wanted to say, I may not be 100% right about my beliefs on this link, but I have sure enjoyed the conversation and challenge you guys brought to the table. it was fun debating! I will continue to check it if you guys want to continue to argue. Lol. =)
  254. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:01 pm
    If it looked like this, would Atheists find it offensive?

    Some would, some wouldn`t.

    Personally, I`d find it showing an expected level of ignorance but I`d appreciate the honesty of it. Ignorant because most atheists don`t claim to KNOW that there is NO GOD and because any claim about atheism should be about gods, plural, because atheists don`t believe in any of them. Honest because gnostic(*) theists do believe atheists are wrong.


    * I know that `gnostic theist` already has a different meaning in Christianity, but I think it`s acceptable usage to also use it as the opposite of `agnostic theist` (or `gnostic atheist` as the opposite of `agnostic atheist`).
  255. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:07 pm
    I think you have a point about anti-theism, but I don`t think it`s mutually exclusive with atheism.

    I`m an agnostic atheist because I think it`s a good idea to not claim something as objective truth without objective proof (i.e. I`m an agnostic) and I don`t believe in the existence of any gods (i.e. I`m an atheist).

    I`m also an anti-theist because I think that religion is dangerous and harmful.

    The issue in this case is what is meant by `theism` - faith or religion? If it can be either, then clearly it`s possible to be both an atheist (no faith) and an anti-theist (opposed to religion). It would even be possible to be a theist anti-theist, which rather implies that different words are needed for faith and religion.
  256. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:15 pm
    Careful... what if I said it didn`t target atheists, that it was for Christians only.

    Then you`d be very obviously wrong. How on Earth could "You KNOW there is NO GOD!" be about Christians only? It explicitly refers to atheists. Gnostic atheists, to be precise, but certainly not Christians.

    In order to be a comparable billboard directed at Christians, the text would have to read something like "You KNOW there is ONE GOD - Father, Son and Holy Spirit! We agree!" It would also show symbols of atheism. If there are any symbols of atheism. I have no idea.
  257. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 10, 2012 at 11:24 pm
    Well, it seems that there are numerous symbols for atheism and none are widely agreed on. Which is fitting for a "group" which shares no common beliefs and therefore isn`t a group at all.

    Some suggested symbols for atheism

    I quite like the empty set symbol. It`s probably useless though, as hardly anyone would know what it means (including me until I read the explanation). Maybe the empty black circle instead. A black circle on a road sign here in the UK indicates a message, as opposed to a requirement or a prohibition.
  258. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 12:07 am
    @elkingo: Please stop multi-posting when it`s unnecessary, it makes what you write harder to read (more down-up-down reading). Just try to stick under 900 chars, or less than that if you use links.

    Re-4.) No, you`ve shifted your argument (as you`ve done repeatedly here) to a different argument. You originally argued that donating to an ATHEIST CAUSE meant that you were NO LONGER AN ATHEIST. You`ve tried to change "atheist cause" to "anti-theist cause", and you`ve tried to change the statement that donating somehow makes you "no longer an atheist" into a claim that it makes you "more than an atheist" and that`s the same thing as "no longer an atheist", which is logically absurd since you`re still an atheist.

    Please, go back and read your original argument, and you will see that I *am* arguing with what you said, but you keep shifting your argument when the absurdity of it becomes obvious.
  259. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 1:06 am
    @elkingo: (continued) Re-5.) The problem is that you`re assuming that all atheist groups DO do that.

    Re-6.) No, it`s not BS. If there exist bigoted people who attack people in group X, and there is a group that exists to defend people in group X from bigotry, then YES, it really is completely irrelevant whether the bigots or the group to defend group X came first BECAUSE THE NEED FOR THAT GROUP EXISTS *NOW*. It is completely pointless to waste time talking about whether the group has always been necessary, when that group is certainly necessary today. Want to waste time picking nits about this? Bother someone else.

    Re-7.) I assume if he MEANT "anti-theists" he would have SAID "anti-theists". That being said, substituting "anti-theists" for "atheists" would have made his argument just as illogical. I could donate to a Christian cause, but that wouldn`t make me no longer an atheist.
  260. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 1:07 am
    @elkingo: (continued 2) Re-Supportive billboards.) What exactly is preventing you from admitting that the "Atheists" billboard that I pointed out to you is NONE OF THOSE THINGS. It doesn`t mention "God", it doesn`t use religious iconography, and isn`t anti-theist at all, beyond mentioning that some non-theists exist.

    I give you an example of such a billboard, and you repeatedly and blatantly IGNORE it!

    If you`re forcing me to only go with the ones in this video, then you`re just shifting the goalposts so they`re in your favor.

    It`s extremely frustrating when you deny something exists, I show it to you, and you continue to deny its existence when I`ve practically rubbed your nose in it multiple times.

    PLEASE, respond to my point about the "Atheists" billboard (that was rejected) as being supportive and not doing the things you claim all atheism billboards do.

    I dare you!
  261. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 1:07 am
    @elkingo: (continued 3) "I do not assert that all atheist organizations are anti-theistic."

    Yes, you did exactly that when you argued that "atheist causes" are "anti-theists" because of some logical drivel in your 9/10/12 4:34:14 PM post (probably on page 2). You`re just shifting your argument again.

    "I do assert that being an atheist does not require organization,"

    Agreed.

    "and that indifference is the usual feelings."

    Huh?

    "I don`t claim that all anti-theistic attacks are on Christians."

    You did, you`ve just shifted your argument since then. Need I remind you of that?
  262. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 1:08 am
    @elkingo: (continued 4) Re-blown up billboard.) If you assume the first "You" refers to atheists, then it`s just a billboard to atheists about an atheist conference. The religious symbolism just represents some of the gods atheists don`t believe in. I don`t claim to know the minds of the authors of the billboard, but they might have meant it that way.

    Will some theists find it offensive? Of course! Some theists can find ANYTHING that doesn`t affirm their beliefs offensive.

    Does that make the group that posted it is "anti-theist"? ABSOLUTELY NOT. They might be, but if posting anything that offends some theists makes you anti-theist, then some THEISTS are anti-theists.

    Let`s tie this up in a bow.

    Atheists can get together and have a cause WITHOUT being anti-theist, because not being FOR something is not the same as being AGAINST something, and to assert otherwise requires an assault on basic logic.
  263. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:13 am
    "I think you have a point about anti-theism, but I don`t think it`s mutually exclusive with atheism."

    I agree. A theist can be an anti-theist also. For example, if a Christian sought to end some other religion.

    "Then you`d be very obviously wrong. How on Earth could "You KNOW there is NO GOD!" be about Christians only? It explicitly refers to atheists."

    My point exactly! Which is how some Christians view the original billboard, and how they find it offensive.
  264. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:24 am
    @HiEv

    I have made a lot of statements that cannot generalize to a wider argument, but I was arguing in the context of the link expressively. I don`t think every cause that is atheist is also anti-theist. However, I think the organizations in this video and link definitively are.

    The thing is, and if you have ever read a lot of madest posts... he is a troll. He probably didn`t mean anything, and we all just assumed he did.
    I took it to mean this: They are no longer atheists because they are anti-theists now also. That is not to say they stopped being atheists, but that they are better defined as anti-theists.

    "and that indifference is the usual feelings."
    "Huh?"
    Sorry, that was a bit unclear. Ha. I mean to say that usual feelings toward all theology from an atheist is indifference. Typically, if you don`t believe in something, you just ignore everything about it and stay indifferent.



  265. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:30 am
    My point exactly! Which is how some Christians view the original billboard, and how they find it offensive.

    No, it is not your point exactly. It`s almost the opposite of your point.

    I spent a post explaining the differences in clear detail.

    You ignored it, took part of a sentence out of context, wrongly claimed it meant the opposite to what it meant and wrongly claimed I was agreeing with you.

    I`m not impressed with your method of argument.

    Unless you`re seriously arguing that Christians KNOW that there is NO GOD, which would be a laughably ridiculous position to take. It`s the only position you can hold which would make your posts consistent, but it`s ludicrous.
  266. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:31 am
    Now you might argue, how can one be indifferent when others are suffering (like the teen in the video). Maybe there is truth in that, but it doesn`t justify attacking Christians all across the nation; because all Christians don`t attack the beliefs of others.

    I have put some thought into the atheist banner you mentioned being put on the bus. I don`t know the full story there though, and can only assume. Perhaps the bus owners are Jewish and don`t want to spread the message? I don`t really know what it was rejected, but it is illogical to assume that it was based on hatred.

    "You did, you`ve just shifted your argument since then. Need I remind you of that?"

    No, I clarified my argument. I did make a lot of statements that aren`t generalizable, and blanket statements. I was talking in the context of this link though, and I hope you can come to see that. I tend to get excited, and not re-read my posts.
  267. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:34 am
    @Angilion -- I did read your entire post. My point in the whole thing was that you can`t make blanket billboards with context clues in them and not offend. I know Atheists in general don`t claim to know things. I honestly wasn`t trying to take your post out of context.
  268. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:39 am
    However, I disagree that the billboard has to be the exact opposite. I do find the idea that there are atheist symbols interesting. I had never considered that there should be any.

    My point was that the original sign had context clues that made it target Christians. You assert that it can`t have any clues to target Atheists. I disagree.

    How the sign originally read made me feel as if it was targeting religion, and specifically Abrahamic religions. I feel the altered image does the opposite of that. It specifically targets atheist thought.

    In any rate, my point was that some will find it offensive.
  269. Profile photo of elkingo
    elkingo Male 30-39
    5468 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 9:43 am
    HiEv --

    I did put some thought into the bus advertisement. However, I feel that I don`t know enough about the situation to make conclusions. I feel the atheists doing the experiment were probably trying to find those results (bias). How many did they submit?

    Perhaps the bus owners simply got annoyed with them, and refused any submissions.

    Perhaps the bus owners are Jewish, and don`t want to spread that sort of message.

    Perhaps the group who wanted to post the message has a bad neighborhood image (possibly due to them being anti-theists) and carrying any message they make would hurt sales.

    The thing is, I don`t know why they rejected the message. However, I doubt it is because they felt all atheists messages are offensive.
  270. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 10:18 pm
    elkingo: "I have made a lot of statements that cannot generalize to a wider argument"

    Then you`ve made a COMPLETELY WORTHLESS ARGUMENT. Saying that "this cherry picked sample supports my bias" says nothing about the greater whole.

    If I took a theist video that mentions some churches in a context that I don`t like (such as Westboro Baptist-type churches) and made what appear to be general statements about ALL theists based on them, wouldn`t you be well justified in pointing out to me that A) that doesn`t apply to ALL theists, and B) it`s a biased sample?

    If you say "100% of X", I shouldn`t have to guess that you mean "100% of X within this very small sample of X that doesn`t really represent X as a whole".

    So, from my point of view, you`re backtracking from absurd overgeneralizations to picking on a few groups in a biased sample and trying to play off your original arguments as "bad wording".
  271. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 10:29 pm
    elkingo: (continued) "They are no longer atheists because they are anti-theists now also. That is not to say they stopped being atheists, but that they are better defined as anti-theists."

    Then you are ignoring the meaning of the phrase "no longer X". If you are "no longer X" then you stopped being X. That is NOT the same thing as "no longer just/merely/etc. X".

    "I mean to say that usual feelings toward all theology from an atheist is indifference."

    ...Until they start trying to enforce their theology on other people who do not share their theology. You can hate on same-sex marriage all you want, but telling people who aren`t in your religion that they can`t do something for no other reason than your theology? No, I`m certainly not indifferent to that.

    I feel the same way about miseducating people about evolution, abiogenesis, and other matters of scientific fact with taxpayer funds.
  272. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 10:47 pm
    elkingo: (continued 2) "Maybe there is truth in that, but it doesn`t justify attacking Christians all across the nation; because all Christians don`t attack the beliefs of others."

    You DO realize that your own statements made it look like you were attacking ALL atheist causes because of the actions of a few groups, right?

    Furthermore, it certainly DOES justify criticizing the Christians that DO persecute atheists.

    But seriously, name one part of the video that CLEARLY attacks "Christians all across the nation"?

    Telling atheists that they aren`t alone? Saying that atheists can do good without religion? Asking people to consider the POSSIBILITY of living without religion? Pointing out examples of hateful bigotry against atheists?

    I`m sorry, but all of the hate I see in the video are knee-jerk reactions to atheist, not towards theists.

    Check the video again and you`ll see you`re just wrong.
  273. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 11:04 pm
    elkingo: (continued 3) "I don`t know the full story there though, and can only assume. Perhaps the bus owners are Jewish and don`t want to spread the message? I don`t really know what it was rejected, but it is illogical to assume that it was based on hatred."

    There would be no need to "assume" if you had actually read the article I linked to. The company had run messages for various religions before. It also specifically listed the policy by which it rejected the "Atheist" ad. No, the atheists weren`t attempting to provoke anyone, they were attempting to NOT provoke anyone. And stop assuming every atheist organization is anti-theist!!! Seriously. Read the article.

    Also, "hatred" is your word, not mine. I`d say "bigotry" is more appropriate. (And WTF would being Jewish have to do with it???)

    I don`t know why you wallow in ignorance of a subject when the information has been provided to you.
  274. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 11, 2012 at 11:20 pm
    elkingo: (continued 4) "I don`t know why they rejected the message."

    A statement only possible if you didn`t actually read the article I linked to.

    Straight from the article, which quotes the company that rejected it saying, "COLTS does not accept ads which could be deemed controversial or otherwise spark public debate." It seems pretty clear to me that "offensive" is basically the right word here, which you denied.

    Your other speculations were also wrong and pointless if you`d read the article.

    angilion: "How on Earth could `You KNOW there is NO GOD!` be about Christians only? It explicitly refers to atheists."

    elkingo: "My point exactly!"

    No, that`s the OPPOSITE of your point when you said, "How is it not targeted towards religious people?"

    This is what I mean about you shifting your arguments.

    Please look up the phrase "cognitive dissonance".
  275. Profile photo of HiEv
    HiEv Male 40-49
    621 posts
    September 12, 2012 at 7:16 am
    @elkingo: (addendum to "continued 2") To clarify, I was speaking of the stuff mentioned in the video clips.

    The end of the video is one person`s response to theists who play the persecution card, not all theists or Christians. That is the only negative bit and it is clearly directed at theists in the US, and only at those theists described in the video that act persecuted despite ACTUAL persecution of atheists at their hands.

    Unless you think ALL theist or Christians feel persecuted (which is absurd), then it was not directed at all of them.
  276. Profile photo of Vimto
    Vimto Male 40-49
    2853 posts
    September 17, 2012 at 2:37 am

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