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Date: 08/14/12 07:00 AM

60 Responses to US Debt Visualized: Updated

  1. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32844 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 5:41 am
    Link: US Debt Visualized: Updated - With helpful tips from Thomas Jefferson! Lady Liberty is looking sad.
  2. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:04 am
    Bush has a lot to answer for.... oh wait, its popular to pin all blame on obama now right?
  3. Profile photo of piperfawn
    piperfawn Male 30-39
    4911 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:08 am
    Knock knock!
    USA: Who is it?
    China: I`t`s me, China.
    USA:...Oh Crap! Quick all escape from the backdoor.
  4. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:19 am
    Cool graphics. Still don`t know why this matters, but good info and cool graphics.
  5. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:24 am
    If only this was animated.
  6. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:28 am
    tedgp

    "Bush has a lot to answer for.... "

    Hey. Shhhhh. This is a nice post. Don`t ruin it for him with perspective.

  7. Profile photo of TruTenrMan
    TruTenrMan Male 30-39
    2553 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:33 am
    ...oh wait, its popular to pin all blame on obama now right? ~tedgp
    Yeah--just like it was popular to pin all the blame on Bush instead of the Democratic House and Congress he had to work with. *eyeroll*
  8. Profile photo of patchouly
    patchouly Male 40-49
    4746 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:38 am
    tedgp:
    "Bush has a lot to answer for.... oh wait, its popular to pin all blame on Obama now right?"
    --------

    LOL! I was going to write something similar, but you beat me to it.
  9. Profile photo of WorldOfJames
    WorldOfJames Male 18-29
    978 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:39 am
    thats a lot of fuggin debt!
  10. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10732 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:43 am
    just like it was popular to pin all the blame on Bush instead of the Democratic House and Congress he had to work with

    I didn`t see the vetoes where it counted.
  11. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36697 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:47 am

    I`m comfortable pinning this on both parties.
    The huge deficit started way back.
    Yeah, Bush took it from huge to REDICULOUSLY huge,
    out Obama has done nothing to curb it so he`s to blame as well.

    Shoot all the politicians. Bullets are still cheap.
  12. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:15 am
    Gerry`s right, most presidents have increased the debt. The last time it went down as a percent of GDP was under Clinton, and Nixon before him.
  13. Profile photo of Ozmose
    Ozmose Male 30-39
    448 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:27 am
    At this point there is no "fixing" it. Just sit back in awe of the nightmarish blasted hellscape of a future we`ve created for ourselves and our children.
    Not that it`s really a concern to me. I intend to spend my days murdering rich people, and taking their undeserved food and water. It`s a living :/
  14. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36697 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Canada better start building that border fence soon to stop all
    the illegal americans from crossing and taking their jobs.

    It`s coming folks.
  15. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:43 am
    @Gerry: Lots of parts of Canada have few jobs available. The ones left mostly untouched by the recession/depression of today are in the prairies, and the only proliferation of jobs there is in the trades.
  16. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:55 am
    So, we owe China money. They`re not getting paid back. If they want this money, they`re gonna have to fight us for it. As far as I`m concerned, we don`t owe them a dime. Don`t give them anything. Matter of fact, they better come out their wallets and hand them over directly to us. Then after we have the wallets in our possession, punch them in the mouth.
  17. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 9:01 am
    @keith2: You`re assuming that they *have* to come to you to get it, which they don`t. All they have to do is stop buying your debt notes and sell the ones they have into the open market, which would make your interest rates skyrocket and ruin your economy. Now China will likely never do this, because they`d lose something like .50 on the dollar for your loans, and even China doesn`t want ot lose $700 billion, but the point is they could if they wanted to.
  18. Profile photo of Angelmassb
    Angelmassb Male 18-29
    15511 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 9:52 am
    Yikes
  19. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:01 am
    Both parties definitely deserve blame, but come on - look at the numbers. Bush had deficit Obama called "unpatriotic" that were on average something like 300 billion. I would kill for those deficits now. Obama`s deficits are a full 1 trillion higher than Bush`s. It`s like Bush was driving towards a cliff at 20 mph and Obama comes in and steps on the gas.

    And Obama really can`t blame Bush for the poor economic recovery anymore. His stimulus alone was bigger than the New Deal and it did nothing. With the amount of debt gained we could have fought World War 2 - TWICE. Oh yeah, nothing to see here guys. No big deal. How can you seriously not be worried about that?
  20. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:07 am
    And Obama really can`t blame Bush for the poor economic recovery anymore.
    Mmhmm, because the rest of the world is doing sooo much better. Deregulation under Bush was a huge part in the beginning of this problem. You have to give credit where it`s due.
  21. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:11 am
    patchgrabber

    "Now China will likely never do this, because they`d lose something like .50 on the dollar for your loans"

    No. That is a drop in the bucket compared to what would happen to China if the American economy crumbled. The US consumes over 20% of Chinese exports.

    Look at what Greece is doing to the EU. The American economy would take down the whole world`s economy, China included.
  22. Profile photo of TheShmoo
    TheShmoo Male 18-29
    213 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:16 am
    It was nice knowing you.x
  23. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:29 am
    Andrew155

    "Obama really can`t blame Bush for the poor economic recovery anymore"

    Obama got handed two wars and the biggest economic downturn in almost a century. He is spending money to try to fix it. The great depression lasted 15 years. We are on year 4 of this recession.

    "His stimulus alone was bigger than the New Deal and it did nothing"

    You know that huh? How do you know that the stimulus didn`t level us out and prevent the worldwide economy from completely crumbling? In addition the housing market, auto market, and stock market have gone up or completely turned around. All we are waiting for is the job market.

    "With the amount of debt gained we could have fought World War 2 - TWICE."

    The Congressional Research Service estimated the financial costs of WW2 at $4.1 trillion (with inflation), 35.8% of GDP. Debt has gone up $3.1 trillion under Obama. So, no.
  24. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:49 am
    First of all, I`m not a hack like you so I`m including both Bush and Obama debt in some of these figures since ALL THE DEBT is bad.

    However, playing by your game, Obama`s debt increase is not 3.1.
    It`s gone up over 5 trillion. Do math - 16 trillion minus 11 trillion. World War 2 was between 3.5-4 trillion. So Obama could have fought it more than once in deficits alone, and if you add Bush`s bailouts AND Obama, you can fight world war 2 twice.

    Stop lying. The fact you think Obama`s debt increase is only 3 trillion alone tells me you`re dishonest. It`s people like you that will condemn this country to poverty.
  25. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:51 am
    @HolyGod: True, the Chinese economy is intertwined with yours and others. My point was more that if they wanted to China could collect money from their stake in the US debt.
  26. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 10:54 am


    I know the stimulus did nothing because most of the stimulus was TAX breaks and teacher salaries. It wasn`t useful government spending. Come on, look at what the stimulus was spent on.

    And the main problem with the stimulus and bailouts is that the structural problems of the economy were not fixed, only continued. For instance, the big banks are still in power even though they should have failed. People would be hurting, but it would be improving by now. Instead, we have a situation where the worst is still yet to come.

    And I will reiterate, the "New Deal" is said to have turned around the economy of the Great Depression. The Stimulus package was BIGGER than the New Deal and people still complain that the economy is lousy because of Bush.

    Housing market has NOT turned around. Where have you been? American cars are still awful. Nobody wants them. Stock market is in a bubble, just like in 2007.
  27. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 11:43 am
    @holygod :)

    @trutenrman /facepalm
  28. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 11:45 am
    @gerry obama HAS tried to deal with it. However, the debt is inflating at an exponential rate that will take years to ease and fix, plus obama and the democrats have been blocked at every turn when they propose methods to fix it.
  29. Profile photo of tedgp
    tedgp Male 30-39
    3287 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 11:46 am
    Just remember, you cant take a debt that was racked up over 10+ years and expect it to be gone overnight.
  30. Profile photo of insane_ai
    insane_ai Male 30-39
    803 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 11:51 am
    Thanks Democraps! Screw money, I am learning to hunt and farm now.
  31. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3890 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 12:36 pm
    The problem as I see it is every year it is harder and harder for congress to work together and compromise. Democrats are pussies so there will always be a few that will break ranks. Especially the ones in heavy conservative states. But the new batch of hard right Republicans have a my-way-or-the-highway mentality which blocks everything. It is so bad you have moderate Republicans and Democrats quitting because nothing can get done. it will only get worse as more and more moderates on both sides get frustrated and leave. What we will be left with is a completely dysfunctional congress of extremes that will be incapable of getting anything done. Until the people demand that congress work together, and vote for people that can work together, we are screwed. One side does not have all the answers. And one side is not all to blame.
  32. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 12:47 pm
    Andrew155

    "Stop lying. The fact you think Obama`s debt increase is only 3 trillion alone tells me you`re dishonest. It`s people like you that will condemn this country to poverty."

    I`m not lying. I just know that attributing the $1.8 Trillion in debt racked up in 2009 under the budget Bush created to Obama is a F.ucking retarded thing that only f.ucking retards do. Obama`s first budget didn`t go into effect till 2010. So try your math again when you want to spread blame around.

  33. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3890 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    Congressmen Steve LaTourette (R) of Ohio, who has served ten terms in Congress, abruptly announced his retirement two weeks ago. He had this to say, "I have reached the conclusion that the atmosphere today and the reality that exists in the House of Representatives no longer encourages the finding of common ground.”

    He cited two specific issues that contributed to his decision-Congress’s struggle in passing a new highway funding bill and its failure to reach a bipartisan deficit reduction deal.

    Sen. Olympia J. Snowe (R) announced her retirement for similar reasons. So did Sen. Ben Nelson (D) and Sen. Kent Conrad (D).
  34. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32844 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:05 pm
    "It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world." - Thomas Jefferson

    @HolyGod: Obama`s debt going OUT (Jan 20 2013) minus his debt comming IN (Jan 20 2009) equals HIS share of the debt, period.
    Anything else is faked accounting, ok?

    @tedgp: "blocked at every turn" Oh you mean by NOT PASSING A BUDGET for over 1000 days? You call THAT a "fix it"?
    fyi: inflation and intrest rates are at an all-time LOW! Just imagine what Carter-like rates would do to the economy.
    "racked up over 10+ years" you are clearly delusional...
  35. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3890 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:08 pm
    To be completely accurate @HolyGod didn`t the 2009 Bush budget end sept 30, 2009 when the fiscal year ended?
  36. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32844 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:09 pm
    oh wait, its popular to pin all blame on obama now right?
    Oh no @tedgp! Lets "Blame Bush tm" for another decade or so...

    Cool graphics.
    Thanks @HolyGod! This sort of thing`s been posted before at IAB, but the last one: "unfunded liabilities" is what`s REALLY the problem! And absolutely true: BOTH PARTIES are equally to blame for that!All that promised spending has to be paid for by someone... not me though! I`m a Canadian! :-P
  37. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:21 pm
    5Cats

    "@HolyGod: Obama`s debt going OUT (Jan 20 2013) minus his debt comming IN (Jan 20 2009) equals HIS share of the debt, period.
    Anything else is faked accounting, ok?"

    Seriously? So a president is responsible for the deficit for the first year in office when the previous administration is the one that set the budget and there is nothing he can do about it? How in the hell is that fair?

    So if Romney beats Obama and takes office in 2013 and Obama`s 2013 budget increases the deficit by $5 Trillion then you are going to rant on here about Romney increasing the deficit $5 Trillion? Come on....
  38. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3890 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:34 pm
    "So if Romney beats Obama and takes office in 2013 and Obama`s 2013 budget increases the deficit by $5 Trillion then you are going to rant on here about Romney increasing the deficit $5 Trillion? Come on."

    Absolutely not. That will be Obama`s fault. But if Obama`s 2013 budget decreases the debt you can be sure 5Cats will attribute that first year to Romney. Sorry 5Cats, you can`t have it both ways. The CBO attributes the first fiscal year of a new president`s term to the previous president.
  39. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:34 pm
    5Cats

    Where you been this whole time? When I saw this post I figured we`d be on our 8th volley by lunch.

    ""racked up over 10+ years" you are clearly delusional..."

    What is wrong with that? The deficit was around $1T when Reagan took office. He added $2T. Bush 1 added $1T. Clinton added $1.5T. Bush 2 added $7T. Obama has added $3.5T. It has been a group effort. Take inflation into account. Your hero Reagan adding $2T in 80s money is just as bad as what Obama has done so far. It has been a group effort. It has gone up $15T in 20 years. $5T with Democrat budgets and $10T with Republican budgets.

    Explain to me again about how the Republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility?
  40. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:36 pm
    5Cats

    "not me though! I`m a Canadian!"

    You know we don`t actually believe that right? ;)
  41. Profile photo of beternal
    beternal Male 18-29
    2589 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    Ok, so all the Americans here are saying yes Americans owe huge amounts to China... but that they`ll never collect.

    My question is... where does it end? - I`m not into all this stuff so this is a genuine question. When will China/ the world say "enough is enough"?

    ...because `debt` doesn`t really mean anything if you can take but never pay back!
  42. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:40 pm
    "It has gone up $15T in 20 years. $5T with Democrat budgets and $10T with Republican budgets. "

    By the way I want to be completely fair. Republicans had 5 terms vs Democrats not even having 3 full ones yet. So that is responsible for some of the inequality.
  43. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:43 pm
    Beternal

    "My question is... where does it end? - I`m not into all this stuff so this is a genuine question. When will China/ the world say "enough is enough"? "

    Never. The answer is never. Pretend countries are companies. Imagine loaning money to a company that is responsible for 20% of your business. If you don`t loan them money they go under and 20% of your business disappears. Not to mention all the other businesses that you do business with rely on that company as well.

    China can`t allow the American economy to falter. It would take down the entire world economy.
  44. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14268 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 1:57 pm
    Imagine what could`ve been built with all the money we were forced to give banks and such for not doing their jobs right.
  45. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:11 pm
    My question is... where does it end? - I`m not into all this stuff so this is a genuine question. When will China/ the world say "enough is enough"?

    Probably never. The circumstances would have to be implausibly extreme to make it possible.

    Option 1: Carry on as it is. The USA can service its debts. It`s not bankrupt. So its debts to China et alia are still worth something to China et alia.

    Option 2: Demand the money back right now. There is absolutely no chance of getting it because the USA doesn`t have enough spare money to repay it all in one go. So there are three possible outcomes from this option:

    2a) The USA goes bankrupt. None of its creditors get any money anyway and the economy of most of the countries in the world collapses, *including those that the USA owes money to*.

    2b) The USA says "No" and rips up the debt. Same outcome as a, probably.

    2c) China conquers the USA as a
  46. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:12 pm
    Cut off as usual...

    2c) China conquers the USA as a form of repossession. Which they can`t do and it would be more expensive than the debt even if they could.
  47. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:15 pm
    As far as I know, the USA owes the UK a quarter of a trillion dollars. Do we care? No. USA government bonds are solid. The debt can be shuffled around with the rest of the pretend money in the world`s economies (and it`s all pretend money).
  48. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:20 pm
    Hmm...a question has arisen in my mind from mt last post.

    Could the USA suddenly switch to being *entirely* self-supporting? So if the USA did rip up all its debts and say "to hell with you, we`re never going to pay any of it", could it handle the sudden cessation of outside trade when everyone cuts off all trade with the USA in response?

    I`m not suggesting it would happen. It`s just curiousity.

    Ah, wait. Oil. So I`m guessing it`s not possible any more.
  49. Profile photo of Angilion
    Angilion Male 40-49
    12387 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:24 pm
    Pretend countries are companies. Imagine loaning money to a company that is responsible for 20% of your business. If you don`t loan them money they go under and 20% of your business disappears. Not to mention all the other businesses that you do business with rely on that company as well.

    I can give a real world example on a much smaller scale. Eire was in the poo in a big way a couple of years back. The UK bailed them out with a loan for exactly the reason you refer to. Eire doesn`t buy 20% of UK exports, but it does buy a non-trivial amount.
  50. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:47 pm
    Well, it`s more important to "win" as a political party then to "fix" something as a political party. Duh. Debt doesn`t matter- it`s just there to give political parties something to campaign about.
  51. Profile photo of HalfPintRoo
    HalfPintRoo Female 18-29
    2765 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:50 pm
    Angilion- From the television, we`re told we have enough of our own oil for many years!!!!!!!!

    But we continue to rely on outside oil.

    Beats me...
  52. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:57 pm
    Angilion

    "Ah, wait. Oil. So I`m guessing it`s not possible any more."

    The Energy Information Administration estimates United States technically recoverable oil reserves to be 198 billion barrels.

    The United States consumes 7 billion barrels annually. We have 28 years covered. Not to mention the trillion barrels in shale. Plus I`d like to think we won`t be consuming gas on this scale in 25 years.

    The reason the U.S. can`t is because nothing is made here. From Mcdonalds toys to iPads and basically every item in a wallmart, without trade we have no way of making products.
  53. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 3:59 pm
    HalfPintRoo

    "But we continue to rely on outside oil.
    Beats me..."

    The United States does have plenty of oil. But we rather use up everyone else`s so we are the last ones standing. Especially since we can get it so cheap. Oil tends to be in poor countries.
  54. Profile photo of bmartin1134
    bmartin1134 Male 18-29
    3 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 4:27 pm
    The icon for this post made me think that the US debt was going to be visualized in an entirely different way.


  55. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32844 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 7:55 pm
    The CBO attributes the first fiscal year of a new president`s term to the previous president.
    Well @HG and @markust: THEN you have to extrapolate Obama`s debt up to the NEXT fiscal year-end at the current rate of spending too! You cannot simply say TODAY`S DEBT is the extent of Obama`s spending, OK? GET IT? You guys clearly are NOT doing that, yet lecture me about "having it both ways" eh? Hummmm....
    FYI: It makes Obama`s debt WORSE not better, I`ve run the numbers twice before and am not interested in doing it again.
    Also: you simply CANNOT tack Obama`s stimulus onto Bush`s debt, period, full stop!

    ""racked up over 10+ years" you are clearly delusional..." - @tedgp

    What is wrong with that? - @HG
    I`ll tell you what`s wrong: Obama`s answer to debt crisis? MORE DEFICIT! Each and every deficit Obama has had is HIGHER than Bush`s.
  56. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32844 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 8:01 pm
    Imagining that it will help LOWER the debt by INCREASING it FASTER than ever is delusional...

    Debt To The Penny look and learn.

    "Well, it`s more important to "win" as a political party then to "fix" something as a political party."
    Well said @HalfPintRoo! That`s the truth of the matter.
    "Angilion- From the television, we`re told we have enough of our own oil for many years!!!!"
    Y`all do, it`s true! BUT it`s more expensive overall, so it makes less profits for the Oil Companies to do so. And like @HG said: use "their" oil while it`s cheap, then "our oil" when it`s worth a lot more!
  57. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 9:30 pm
    5Cats

    "Well @HG and @markust: THEN you have to extrapolate Obama`s debt up to the NEXT fiscal year-end"

    I`m perfectly fine with that. Totally. As long as you say "By the end of Obama`s fiscal leadership the national debt will be...." I`m cool. It will be a metric s.hit ton of cash. I could sit on here and b.itch about what obama has done all day. But I get caught up having to correct right wing spin the whole time. You probably think I`m partisan as hell, but I`m not. I disagree with a lot of what Obama has done.

  58. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6781 posts
    August 14, 2012 at 9:31 pm
    5Cats

    ...continued

    I`d happily vote for a Republican as long as they left the religion at home and were intelligent and articulate. I like the republican platform (minus the "morality" police and environmental neglect). We just haven`t had anyone actually lead by it in a long time.

    I get pissed off when republicans run on fiscal responsibility and then jack up the debt without reprisals, but as soon as a democrat does it the people that were silent a couple years ago lose their mind. (Tea Party)
  59. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    August 16, 2012 at 6:09 am
    I am sorry . . . you `mercans are so screwed . . .
  60. Profile photo of photomstr
    photomstr Male 50-59
    766 posts
    August 16, 2012 at 6:12 am
    I think it is wise and clever that `merca chooses to consume the cheap foreign oil first. Once it is all gone the arabs can go back to stealing each other`s wives and goats.

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