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Date: 08/19/12 02:00 PM

131 Responses to Todd Akin On Pregnancy And `Legitimate` Rape

  1. Profile photo of ElMustache
    ElMustache Male 18-29
    1625 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:09 pm
    Link: Todd Akin On Pregnancy And `Legitimate` Rape - He thinks you can`t get pregnant if you`ve REALLY been raped.
  2. Profile photo of indisguise
    indisguise Female 40-49
    267 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:25 pm
    That man is an ass.
  3. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:30 pm
    I`d rather have a senator who believes something wrong and stupid that is mostly harmless, than have a senator who believes something wrong and stupid that is a serious threat to the future of the republic. That`s our choice here in Missouri.

    McCaskill cast the deciding vote on ObamaCare. I doubt seriously that Aikin will end up casting the deciding vote on outlawing abortion in the case of rape.
  4. Profile photo of ScottSerious
    ScottSerious Male 18-29
    5316 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:33 pm
    uhh.....wut?
  5. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:43 pm
    OldOllie, I can only *hope* that by `stupid` and `mostly harmless`, you mean the the Affordable Care Act. Because if you mean Akin`s idea of `Legitimate Rape,` and if you`re actually forwarding the ignorant and baseless and alarmist idea that the ACA is a `threat to the Republic,` over `legitimate rape,` you need to be beaten with a drating rubber hose to prevent you from passing on your genetic material.

    Ban me for saying so if you want, Mods. That`s just drating insane talk right there!
  6. Profile photo of indisguise
    indisguise Female 40-49
    267 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:48 pm
    Like it or not, abortion is legal. Legislating to remove that right and force a woman to have a baby by her attacker is not in any way `mostly harmless`.
  7. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:53 pm
    lol he doesn`t realize that rape is a legitimate system of gene dispersal. How would women have a biological defense against it? They`re bodies prepare them for it.
  8. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 2:56 pm
    OldOllie

    So making rape victims suffer through a pregnancy and give birth to their rapist`s baby is "mostly harmless", but attempting to ensure that every American has health insurance is "a serious threat to the future of the republic"?

    Explain to me how conservatives are perfectly OK spending $4T to bomb, murder, injure, and police another country (Iraq war) but hate the idea of spending $2T to make people in our own country healthier? I really don`t get it.

    Oh, if you choose to respond, please try to respond with facts, figures, etc and not simply that I`m a libertard spewing slander and lies.
  9. Profile photo of WeePee
    WeePee Male 18-29
    612 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:02 pm
    well you can`t because babies can only be made when a man and woman love each other. duh
  10. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:02 pm
    @oldollie

    Why do americans think universal healthcare is sent direct from the devil? It`s a great system embraced, to my knowledge, by virtually all developed countries.


    Or are you just a fan of having a heart attack and being forced into bankruptcy as a result?
  11. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:03 pm
    @WeePee

    Kid: Dad, where do babies come from?
    Dad: Well son, when a man rapes a woman, very much....

    lol
  12. Profile photo of An-egg
    An-egg Male 30-39
    885 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:06 pm
    I seriously hope that after saying something this uneducated Akin doesn`t get to cast any more votes on anything. I certainly wouldn`t vote for him for any office.
  13. Profile photo of Student_Law
    Student_Law Male 30-39
    1010 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:16 pm
    Will these old, grey and bitter men with all their woman- issues die out, all ready?
  14. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:24 pm
    These people will always exist. The only reason we hear about them is this cherry picking of these sorts of things to stir up a commotion. That is the only reason why this guy is getting coverage, why it is getting posted here. That is the only reason why the Westboro Baptist guys get coverage. It`s to stir up a ruckus and rally support for the opposing side - trying to depict those like Westboro as representative of the opposition. In reality, that is bull.

    That is why the Chick fil-a shooter is not representative of gay rights advocates.

    http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20220817shooter_carried_chick-fil-a_food
  15. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:27 pm
    THIS is the GOP.

    people might say, oh no, this guy is just an extreme case...sorry he`s not.

    the GOP P pick right now has voted several times against abortions in cases of rape and has voted to repeal fair pay acts.

    the GOP is anti-woman and anti-American.

    signed,

    A RON PAUL SUPPORTER.

    PS-yea your Obama attacks won`t work on me so you better bring something better.
  16. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2345 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 3:28 pm
    Andrew155

    sorry NO. the GOP VP picks AGREES with this guy and his is about as mainstream as it gets.

  17. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:14 pm
    1. Ron Paul is in the GOP.
    2. The GOP is not monolithic. Many different opinions, which is precisely why Ron Paul can be in it.
    3. I didn`t realize this was the position of my mom, who is a GOP voter.
    4. Calling the bulk of GOP voters this is like calling Democrats who support partial birth abortion the bulk of the Democrats.
    5. Few people support a ban on all abortions, those who do genuinely consider it murder. That`s their point of view, they see the DNA there and they see life. It`s not like no women support it.

    However, most people are in the middle on abortion. Most people think that a ban on all abortions is psycho, but most people think that such a casual and permissive attitude towards abortion is creepy.

    And bottom line, Roe v. Wade will never be touched. So people need to stop having hernias over it and move on. Seriously, everyone.
  18. Profile photo of jendrian
    jendrian Male 18-29
    2516 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:16 pm
    There just aren`t enough facepalms in the world.
  19. Profile photo of FoolsPrussia
    FoolsPrussia Male 30-39
    3446 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:25 pm
    `I`d rather have a senator who believes something wrong and stupid that is mostly harmless, than have a senator who believes something wrong and stupid that is a serious threat to the future of the republic.`

    The best thing about Obamacare is that you and Mr. Akin will have access to more mental health treatment. Society wins.
  20. Profile photo of slut_etta
    slut_etta Female 50-59
    3849 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:33 pm
    `legitimate` rape? i find just the headline so incediary that i won`t click on it.

    whenever i hear men bleating about rape i always wonder if they`ve experienced it. and sometimes i hope that they do. does that make me a bad person?
  21. Profile photo of marcus2
    marcus2 Male 13-17
    677 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:35 pm
    It`s almost like he`s assuming that humans were designed... I wonder why that would be...
  22. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:35 pm

    Being pro-life is not "anti-woman".
    Stick to reality and facts and your arguement holds more weight.
  23. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:47 pm
    @ slut

    You don`t understand that some rapes are legit and others are bogus?
    Why? are you special needs?
  24. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:50 pm
    Being pro-life is not "anti-woman"

    It kinda is though.
    You`re telling a woman that what she wants or needs is irrelevant.
  25. Profile photo of Modwain
    Modwain Male 40-49
    336 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 4:59 pm
    hmm.. my two cents..

    pro live isnt per say bad, it becomes bad when pro live decides and takes away the choice of the living. a true democracy is pro choice, for it is not enforcing choices.

    Akin may be targeted in this link, and righlty so.. but he ist the only chosen official with, what i can only call, a restrictive and enforcing view on an issue. i fear, America, that you will get the representation you chose for, i guess that`s what democracy means. You don`t like people like this? dont vote for em.

    the down side of democracy is that a lot of people don`t think about their choice, or their own commitment.
  26. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:01 pm
    He`s not far removed from the Taliban
  27. Profile photo of broizfam
    broizfam Male 60-69
    4846 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:13 pm
    Both legitimate and bogus rape CLAIMS exist. As a gynecologist who`s worked in emergency rooms and testified as an expert witness in rape trials I`ve seen both. I support choice but I also know that many women use abortion as a primary birth control method (When they`re having their tenth and refuse contraception it`s pretty obvious). As for legitimate vs. bogus rape it`s easy - if she said no it was rape.
  28. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:30 pm
    ReBoot

    "It kinda is though.
    You`re telling a woman that what she wants or needs is irrelevant."

    I am very very liberal. However I am pro life. I don`t care about what woman do to their own bodies. I don`t care about what anyone does to their own body. But I do care what women do to the body inside their body.

    Look, rape and incest are basically red herrings. The vast, vast, VAST amount of abortions are done as birth control. Nothing more.

    "According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), there were 820,151 legal induced abortions in the US in 2005. About 1% is due to incest or rape and about 3% due to mothers health."

    SInce around 10% of pregnancies result in a miscarriage that means in 2005 over 700,000 fetuses that would have otherwise been perfectly healthy babies were killed for no other reason than because the woman had consensual sex and then decided she didn`t want a baby.
  29. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:35 pm
    ....

    WIth all the various safe sex options and the option of adoption I have never understood why society as a whole feels this is acceptable.

    Now if the mental health of the woman is in jeopardy due to rape or her physical health is in jeopardy for whatever reason, I understand. Otherwise, I don`t get it.
  30. Profile photo of indisguise
    indisguise Female 40-49
    267 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:43 pm
    @ broizfam - I`ve got to think that the women using it as `primary birth control` are far and few in between.
    1. It`s a lot more expensive than actual birth control. I don`t know of anyplace that gives free abortions for any reason.
    2. It`s not a pleasant experience for the woman at all.
    There has to be an underlying reason why those women would opt for an invasive surgical procedure as opposed to using a method that would prevent pregnancy in the first place.
  31. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 5:48 pm
    @HolyGod

    You`re still giving an unborn non-human more rights than the person who will have to host this thing inside her for nearly a year. Pregnancy is not something to be entered into lightly.
    If a woman doesn`t want to do through that then i can`t see how we could ethically force her to do it.
    Obviously abortion should not be used as a contraceptive but to tell a woman that she MUST incubate this parasite is uncontainable.
  32. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:03 pm
    indisguise

    96% of abortions are simply birth control. Perhaps not "primary", but still.
  33. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:09 pm
    reboot

    "You`re still giving an unborn non-human more rights than the person who will have to host this thing inside her for nearly a year."

    Absolutely not. If that were the case I would be saying it has more right to live than she does. Not at all. But I certainly think the life of an innocent baby outweighs the mother`s 9 month inconvenience, especially since she made choices that led to the situation.

    "Obviously abortion should not be used as a contraceptive"

    Well it is. She forgot to take the pill, or the condom broke, or the pull out method didn`t work, or she figured her days wrong, or whatever. Look even if you are careful and do things properly there is always a risk of pregnancy. So either don`t have sex, or understand you may get pregnant. If you are willing to take that risk, I don`t think a baby should die because you got bad odds.
  34. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:11 pm
    ....


    I know girls that have had several abortions. And if you don`t think there are woman all across this country that aren`t more careful with birth control because they know worst case scenario they can just have an abortion, you`re naive. I`ve met them. I`ve dated them. They`re everywhere.
  35. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:15 pm
    Reboot

    BTW, I know on this particular topic I come off like a religious nut, and my avatar assists in that, so allow me to clarify.

    The avatar is zeus. I don`t believe in God, never have, and think it`s the biggest pile of h.orsepoo. I support drugs, gambling, and prostitution being legalized. I lost my virginity at 14. I have 2 kids and have never been married. I`m the farthest thing from a religious nut.
  36. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:18 pm
    2 of 2

    The only thing we know with certainty is that left to it`s natural course it will be a baby. Since a child`s life is at stake, I tend err on the side of caution and I`m anti-abortion. Others feel that if it can`t put up a fight it`s okay to kill it.

  37. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:19 pm
    1 of 2
    Me: Being pro-life is not "anti-woman"

    ReBoot: It kinda is though.
    You`re telling a woman that what she wants or needs is irrelevant.
    Not at all. It`s saying that there is now a 3rd person involved who also has rights.

    The "Right to do what you want with your body" is a false premise.
    You cannot sell a spare kidney on eBay. You cannot rent your body out for sex in exchange for money {except in Nevada}. You cannot put prohibited drugs in your body. You do NOT have the right to do anything you want, not even with your body.

    The "Woman`s Right to Choose" is a smokescreen to dodge the core issue which is "Is it a baby?" If it`s just parasitic tissue then of course it can be removed. But if it`s a living baby then you are murdering it. No one, not scientists nor shaman, can conclusively prove when a fetus becomes a person. Many people "believe" one thing, others "believe
  38. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:20 pm

    cutoff .... "believe something else."
  39. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm
    @HolyGod

    It`s called free will, sucka.
    Any way you slice it, you`re talking about taking away a person`s right to their own body. That`s not a good path to head down.

    As for the eloquent rant...very nice but i think you read a whole lot into
    Obviously abortion should not be used as a contraceptive
    Of course it`s used as contraception. I didn`t for a moment imply it wasn`t. I simply said that it shouldn`t be.
  40. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 6:54 pm
    You cannot sell a spare kidney on eBay. You cannot rent your body out for sex in exchange for money...


    lol whatever Gerry.
    Kind of a feeble comparison. The things you listed are all "can`t", things you`re not allowed to do. This would be a matter of "you must" which is plainly a different matter altogether.
    Hello BB
    lol

    cutoff .... "believe something else."

    Yup. I don`t believe a potential person is the same as a real person.
  41. Profile photo of jtrebowski
    jtrebowski Male 40-49
    3359 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 7:17 pm
    HolyGod: "
    96% of abortions are simply birth control. Perhaps not "primary", but still."


    I`m also a liberal that doesn`t like abortion, but do you have any proof to back up your claim?
  42. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32785 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 7:18 pm
    This guy`s an idiot, I do hope he`s been taken out of contex (tl:dr).
    Even if he`s not: it`s his opinion!
    Also: the vast majority of pro-lifers believe an exception can be made for rape, ok? Real rape, not "oh I want an abortion so I`ll say I was raped" rape.

    Pro-abortionists are a vile bunch... killing babies for fun and profit!
  43. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32785 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 7:27 pm
    Look, rape and incest are basically red herrings. The vast, vast, VAST amount of abortions are done as birth control. Nothing more.
    Well @HolyGod: I`m glad we finally agree on something!
    I`ve come across the 1% for rape number (or lower) many times, even from "pro-choice" statistics!

    @ReBoot is totally trolling...
  44. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    @ReBoot is totally trolling...

    I guess that`s kind of like a counter argument....

    lol
  45. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 7:44 pm
    Republican douche-bag.Nothing new.
  46. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:13 pm
    Reboot

    "It`s called free will, sucka. "

    Absolutely. That is my point. Someone has free will to have sex and someone has freewill for what precautions to take. At that point, if they are pregnant, it is the result of their freewill. Nobody is forcibly impregnated (outside of rape victims).
  47. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:14 pm
    jtrebowski

    "According to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), there were 820,151 legal induced abortions in the US in 2005. About 1% is due to incest or rape and about 3% due to mothers health."
  48. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:18 pm
    5Cats

    "Well @HolyGod: I`m glad we finally agree on something!"

    I`ve said before, we probably agree on tons of stuff. We even agree that Obama spends too much money and I wasn`t for the bailouts as they were. However, I tend to have to spend my time correcting people on totally inaccurate statistics and questioning why they didn`t have a problem with Bush`s spending and stimulus, so I never get around to agreeing with you.

    "I`ve come across the 1% for rape number (or lower) many times, even from "pro-choice" statistics! "

    I always see around 1% for rape / incest and 3% for health threat to the mother. So that leaves 96% being birth control.
  49. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:20 pm
    So making rape victims suffer through a pregnancy and give birth to their rapist`s baby is "mostly harmless"

    OldOllie, I can only *hope* that by `stupid` and `mostly harmless`, you mean the the Affordable Care Act.
    No, you fapping idiots! What does it take to drill an EXTREMELY simple concept into your thick, bigoted, liberal heads?

    I`m saying he`ll NEVER get a chance to act on that idea, so it`s doesn`t matter. It will never affect a single person. On the other hand, McCaskill supports socialist policies that will destroy this country the same way they`re destroying Europe. Greece, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland are all going down the toilet, and Italy and France are close behind. If we don`t stop this $#!+ here and now, we`re next, and there`s NO ONE to bail US out!

    I didn`t vote for this guy in the primary, but now we`re stuck with him or McCaskill. It`s a crappy choice, but it`s not a difficult one.
  50. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:20 pm
    Here`s one, while we are on the subject. Why do people always say "in cases of rape or incest"? Why incest? Why does incest mandate an abortion? I don`t get it. It works out just fine for the british royal family.
  51. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:32 pm

    ReBoot, "It`s called free will, sucka.
    Any way you slice it, you`re talking about taking away a person`s right to their own body. That`s not a good path to head down."
    Like taking away the baby`s right to his/her own body by killing it? That`s your way to defend women`s rights? Kill a child? I think you should re-examine your logic.

    Again, the concept of doing what you want with your body is used to sidestep the issue. You do not have the right to do whatever you want, that has been established legally & morally. There are limits. Many people do not believe anyone has the right to kill a child, even unborn.

    Liberals act as if the "right to choose" is a law of nature like gravity. But the fact is it`s a current political/moral viewpoint. One that can change and is not set in stone.
  52. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:34 pm

    " I don`t believe a potential person is the same as a real person."
    What kind of warped society do we have when
    Corporations are people, but babies aren`t?
  53. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm
    OldOllie

    "Socialist policies that will destroy this country the same way they`re destroying Europe."

    Oh boy. Canada has had public healthcare since 1984. England since 1948. France since 1945. The reason that Europe is in a financial crisis has little to nothing to do with their health care systems, no matter what the morons you listen to say. Try reading for yourself. Your ignorance is embarrassing. Especially when you throw around insults like "thick bigoted heads".

    How can you be OK spending $4B on Iraq in the past decade but not spending half that much to make our own citizens healthier in the next decade?

    People like you pissed and moaned about social security and medicare too when they were implemented. But now everyone is generally happy with them.
  54. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    reBoot

    "I don`t believe a potential person is the same as a real person."

    Look. We aren`t talking 50/50 here. Roughly 90% of pregnancies result in a healthy baby. So 90% of the time you are killing something that will be a baby.
  55. Profile photo of Spaztazoid
    Spaztazoid Female 18-29
    152 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 8:37 pm
    I`m pro-choice and I`m far from being a bad person.
  56. Profile photo of sutra46
    sutra46 Female 40-49
    2550 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm
    It`s the individual womans decision & no one else period.
  57. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:34 pm
    HG, government health care is only ONE of the socialist policies that McCaskill supports that taking us down into the sewer of socialism hot on the heels of Europe.

    And as to Canada, check the parking lot of any hospital or clinic on the US side of the Canadian border, and you will see dozen`s of Canadian license plates. They`re here because they don`t want do die on a waiting list. What will become of these poor bastards if we f*** up our health care system as bad as theirs?

    BTW, I`m pro choice, but my reasons are purely cynical. I figure 90% of the women having abortions are Democrats, and their kids, if they didn`t kill them first, would grow up to be Democrats as well. Yeah, they`re innocent, but no more innocent than the women and children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Aborted babies are just collateral damage in a larger war.
  58. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:41 pm
    @HolyGod

    Look. We aren`t talking 50/50 here. Roughly 90% of pregnancies result in a healthy baby. So 90% of the time you are killing something that will be a baby.

    Key distinction here is "will be". It exists as a person only in potentiality and to give it rights that usurp the rights of the host is illogical.
  59. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:41 pm
    @Gerry

    lol it`s not "side-stepping" the issue just because you say it is. It`s part of the whole issue, genius.

    You do not have the right to do whatever you want


    Thanks for repeating yourself, Gerry but as i pointed out, it`s bull­sh­it to argue that saying "you cannot do this" is in any way similar to saying "you MUST do this".

    We`re basically arguing the same point just from a reversed standpoint.

    Seems to me that you think the proto-human`s rights supersede the rights of the already existent person. I think that by virtue of being the only sentient life form in the equation, the mother`s rights to her body supersede that of the fetus.
  60. Profile photo of JaundiceCake
    JaundiceCake Female 18-29
    674 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    Pro-choice. I can`t even imagining carrying a rape-baby to term.
  61. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 9:57 pm
    Didn`t we fight the Nazis for freedom?
  62. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36653 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:00 pm

    ReBoot: You argued they can have an abortion because they have the right to do what they want with their body. I argued they do not have that right. I don`t know how you think that the concepts of your YES to my NO are not relatable within the framework of this topic.

    But we`re getting sidetracked on semantics.
    Here is a dog with noodles which renders your arguement invalid.




  63. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:10 pm
    @Gerry

    I don`t know how you think that the concepts of your YES to my NO are not relatable within the framework of this topic.

    I`m pretty certain that doesn`t mean anything but it sounds like your assigning opinions to me.
    A little less wordplay and a little more articulation of you meaning, if you please.



  64. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:23 pm
    ReBoot

    Key distinction here is "will be". It exists as a person only in potentiality.

    So what if I strap a bomb to you that has a 90% chance of going off? I mean it only "will be" murder. It exists as murder only in potentiality.
  65. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:42 pm
    @HolyGod

    A feeble analogy that only appears clever because you ignored half my post.
    and to give it rights that usurp the rights of the host is illogical.

    It`s not a person, it`s not even sentient. How could its rights outweigh those of a real person?
  66. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:54 pm
    ReBoot

    "How could its rights outweigh those of a real person? "

    We aren`t comparing two equal rights. We are comparing the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of a woman to not be (in most cases) mildly inconvenienced for 4 or 5 months.

    If we were comparing equally important rights, i.e. the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of the woman to live then it is a no brainer. I fully support abortion in that circumstance.

    " it`s not even sentient."

    Well of course it is at some point before birth. You don`t give an unborn baby any rights because it isn`t a baby. So when does it have rights? When it has a heartbeat? When it can feel pain? When it can survive on its own outside the womb?
  67. Profile photo of indisguise
    indisguise Female 40-49
    267 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 10:57 pm
    OldOllie - " I figure 90% of the women having abortions are Democrats, and their kids, if they didn`t kill them first, would grow up to be Democrats as well."

    My parents both vote Republican and I grew up to be a Democrat. On the flip side of that, I have friends who vote Republican and their parents are Democrats. So much for your theory...
  68. Profile photo of joeblowsglas
    joeblowsglas Male 30-39
    72 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 11:04 pm
    oh my gosh some of you mens are so... gross. it`s interesting to see this heated conversation carried out at length by male I-A-B`ers more than women ... on the issue of women being raped and resulting pregnancies. and your attitudes are off-putting to say the least dudes! i don`t even think many of you guys have been raped and inseminated with some strangers rape-goo. (NOT A BABY YET) so i am left wondering how there`s so much more text from the men here... life and everything exist in a spectrum. there`s a point where the central nervous systems developes so much a consciousness arrises, but this is gradual and a huge grey area... you can`t go around claiming every pile of spooge is human, or even embryonic goo that has just met some rapists sperm is human. at some point it does become human. but i`d rather hear from more women, at least equally than reading all these guys talking about things they don`t understand. ugh. i dunno. just shut up already. :-D
  69. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 11:22 pm
    OldOllie - " I figure 90% of the women having abortions are Democrats, and their kids, if they didn`t kill them first, would grow up to be Democrats as well."

    My parents both vote Republican and I grew up to be a Democrat. On the flip side of that, I have friends who vote Republican and their parents are Democrats. So much for your theory...
    You caught me on a technicality. I meant to say 90% of their kids would grow up to be Democrats. Your anecdotal evidence to the contrary, the phenomenon still holds. I`d wager if you polled ALL of your friends regarding their politics vs. that of their parents`, you would find ~90% of them share their political affiliation with their parents.

    You should be thankful, though, that your parents were/are Republicans, otherwise...
  70. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 11:55 pm
    OldOllie

    "You should be thankful, though, that your parents were/are Republicans, otherwise..."

    I grew up Republican. My parents were Republicans. I voted for Bush 2. However his first term turned me into siding as a Democrat. His second changed my parents.

    I would easily vote Republican again. However so much of the party is full of ignorant, bitter, vicious, bigoted old men it is hard for me to do it.
  71. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 19, 2012 at 11:57 pm
    joeblowsglas

    "on the issue of women being raped and resulting pregnancies"

    Ehhhh. We`ve been debating abortion in general. I don`t think anyone on here has said they are against abortion in cases of rape.
  72. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:07 am
    @HolyGod

    mildly inconvenienced

    Sounds like you haven`t been around many pregnant women.....

    And it absolutely doesn`t matter which rights we`re talking about. The mother`s outweigh those of the parasite.

    So when does it have rights?

    I feel that`s pretty well-defined. There`s a point past which you cannot legally terminate a pregnancy.
    Let`s face it though, kids are basically animals even a year after birth, stupider than an ape even. My point being that, that little amalgamation of cells is not a person, not by a long shot.

    The long and the short of it is that no one should ever be able to tell you that yo MUST do something to your own body. Particularly something so life changing.

    lol again " mildly inconvenienced"
  73. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:10 am
    @HolyGod

    I don`t think anyone on here has said they are against abortion in cases of rape.

    Why? Doesn`t that rape baby get the same consideration as any other?
    The woman doesn`t have to keep it, just give birth to it.
    Isn`t that really just a minor inconvenience?
  74. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:30 am
    Reboot

    "Sounds like you haven`t been around many pregnant women....."

    Well I lived with my mom when she was pregnant with my two brothers. I lived with my girlfriend when she was pregnant with our two children. I was around her sister frequently during 2 of her 3 pregnancies. I`ve had several friends and coworkers that were pregnant. Worst it got for any of them was a little morning sickness. I never said it was fun, but for most women it does end up just being a minor inconvenience.

    "Why? Doesn`t that rape baby get the same consideration as any other? The woman doesn`t have to keep it, just give birth to it.
    Isn`t that really just a minor inconvenience?"

    No. Absolutely not. The constant physical reminder of that would be emotionally and psychologically crippling. Not to mention, once again, SHE didn`t make the choices that led to her pregnancy. Huge difference to me.
  75. Profile photo of ReBoot
    ReBoot Male 18-29
    233 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:45 am
    Lol yeah, that must be why women always talk about pregnancy being such a breeze....No.

    emotionally and psychologically crippling.


    And you don`t think carrying a chile to term and giving birth has a psychological impact on a woman? Even if she always planned to give it up or can`t keep it, many women suffer from numerous psychological conditions as a result.
    Birth/pregnancy is a big deal.

    Not to mention, once again, SHE didn`t make the choices that led to her pregnancy. Huge difference to me.


    Maybe a big difference to you but there`s literally no practical difference
  76. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2514 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 1:13 am
    I`m opposed to abortions being allowed only during cases of rape. The results would be that rape accusations against men would skyrocket astronomically.
  77. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    32785 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 3:17 am
    vv @RobSwindol: That`s a very real problem, there`s no easy answers in this eh?

    What kind of warped society do we have when
    Corporations are people, but babies aren`t?
    @Gerry1: Cold-blooded murderers have a right to live, but not inconvenient babies...
  78. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2514 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:13 am
    "@Gerry1: Cold-blooded murderers have a right to live, but not inconvenient babies... "

    5Cats, your (like millions of other) have a serious problem, and that is, you don`t understand what a "right" is.

    To say that someone has the right to do something, you give them the freedom to choose. For instance, having the right to bare arms doesn`t mean that everyone must own a gun. That would be called "mandatory gun ownership". Instead, having the right to bare arms means that we have the ability to make our own decision as to whether or not we, as individuals, should own guns. The same goes for freedom of speech. To have it doesn`t mean that I have to speak, but means that I have the ability to choose to speak or not.

    So before a right can be given to something or someone, they must first have the ability to decide whether or not they want to exercise said right. So no, unborn fetuses do not have rights.
  79. Profile photo of RobSwindol
    RobSwindol Male 30-39
    2514 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:20 am
    vv In Addition...

    If your are going to go down that path and say that a fetus has a right to live, then once that fetus is born, are you going to continue to fight for their right to live? Meaning that you will then give them the ability to decide whether or not they want to live?

    When you force a mother (and possibly a father) to have a child they do not want, that child faces life-long reprocussions. Will you, at any given point in that child`s life, grant them their wish if they choose to be dead rather than live in a life of misery? If not, then you aren`t really given them the right to live, are you?

    Only when a person has full decision making ability over whether or not they live or die, do they truly have the right to live. But I have a feeling that most "pro lifers" aren`t willing to do this yet.

    So, until then... shut your pie holes and stop being hypocrites.
  80. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:36 am
    It`s amusing that the people who say the government should intervene to stop unborn foetuses from being aborted tend to be the very same people who say the government SHOULDN`T intervene to stop people from owning guns and using them to shoot other people.
  81. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:39 am
    @HolyGod

    "Look. We aren`t talking 50/50 here. Roughly 90% of pregnancies result in a healthy baby. So 90% of the time you are killing something that will be a baby."

    What percentage of sperm could become a healthy baby?

    Because in your eyes, my boyfriend and I are mass murderers.
  82. Profile photo of joeblowsglas
    joeblowsglas Male 30-39
    72 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:45 am
    @musuko42.
    LOL
    exactly. :-D
  83. Profile photo of dirtysteve00
    dirtysteve00 Male 30-39
    373 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 5:22 am
    Amazing that such an uneducated gent could still pull such strong support.
    Consider that he makes his decisions based on what he knows, and then it should be clear why that is frightening.
  84. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 5:28 am
    That`s republican logic for you. This guy is on the US House Committee on Science, Space and Technology. We`re doomed. Thanks republicans!
  85. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 5:36 am
    So let`s get this straight... If a bloke rapes a woman and she gets pregnant, then it`s not `legitimate rape`, because she was secretly gagging for it. Presumably if she`s married at the time, then according to the bible, she`s guilty of adultery and should be stoned?
  86. Profile photo of Draculya
    Draculya Male 40-49
    14620 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 6:45 am
    This logic is so fu__ed. when will religious nutjobs learn to respect other people`s (esp women`s) rights?
  87. Profile photo of BoredFrank
    BoredFrank Male 40-49
    2320 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 6:45 am
    I figure about half of all Republicans believe horsepoo like this.

    That`s what happens when you accept stupid crap like Creationism as science.
  88. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 6:48 am
    So they find some idiot no one has ever heard of who makes and idiotic statement and it gets splayed all over the Internet and TV as "all Republicans are like this. This is what you`re voting for."

    Meanwhile, we ignore "spread the wealth around", "you didn`t build that", "they`ll put you back in chains", "bitter clingers", "stand up, Chuck Graham", "we can lead the world in the 20th century", "the private sector is doing just fine", "guess the jobs weren`t as shovel-ready as we thought", 8.5% unemployment, 1.2% GDP growth, civilians murdered by drones, insurgents ignored and murdered in Iran, death panels, voting for infanticide, mass back-door amnesty, $16 trillion in debt, banks still collapsing, houses still foreclosing, nationalization of GM, bans on oil drilling, taxes skyrocketing... have I missed anything?

    Do we really want 4 more years of THIS? Really?!?!
  89. Profile photo of Palfas
    Palfas Male 30-39
    411 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 6:57 am
    AvatarJohn, I think you`re missing the point. This guy, and most republicans like him, are deliberately being like this; they are actually this horrible on purpose.

    No one`s ignoring the other issues, this is how the right is framing the debate. If you want to debate if this guy and his ilk are not this stupid when it comes to other issues, you`re going to have to put up some evidence first.
  90. Profile photo of madest
    madest Male 40-49
    7378 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 7:08 am
    @Avatarjohn, Unless you educated all your employees. Built the roads and utilities to your business. You didn`t "build it on your own", You needed society. Thomas Paine once said: "Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of society, as it is for him to make land originally".
  91. Profile photo of ChainsawNbud
    ChainsawNbud Male 50-59
    741 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 7:14 am
    AvatarJohn, congrats for being able to regurgitate everything they tell you on Fox News.

    As far as the "you didn`t build that", you know full well what Obama was talking about was the infrastructure of roads, utilities, and other services necessary for business; loans from banks, and myriad other examples of how small businesses are helped by those other than the ones who put in 80 hour weeks doing the actual work.

    Which makes me doubt your other statistics. As far as I`m concerned, I`ve personally been doing well in my job and while the company I work for was not able to give anyone a pay raise this year, I have not overextended myself to the point where I can`t afford my house or my car payments or other bills. I can afford to fill my car with gas and take a vacation every once in a while. So to me the economy is doing fine and YES I`m going to do everything I can to make sure we have 4 more years of the same.
  92. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 7:23 am
    But I certainly think the life of an innocent baby outweighs the mother`s 9 month inconvenience
    Yeah, because after 9 months that baby is good to go and get a job right? Just because the baby would be healthy is irrelevant. If the parent(s) is(are) in no way fit to be a parent, then why make a baby suffer through horrible parents?

    Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical component, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the EEG rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester.

    So a pre-third trimester abortion isn`t even noticed by the fetus.
  93. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 8:05 am
    In a country full of easily-accessible handguns, I find it amazing that more idiots like this aren`t shot at on a regular basis.
  94. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 8:12 am
    Can we outlaw religion already?
  95. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 8:16 am
    I think you`re missing the point. This guy, and most republicans like him, are deliberately being like this; they are actually this horrible on purpose.

    "No one`s ignoring the other issues, this is how the right is framing the debate. If you want to debate if this guy and his ilk are not this stupid when it comes to other issues, you`re going to have to put up some evidence first. "
    If thy are being like this intentionally, we should stone them.Intentionally.
  96. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 9:43 am
    robswindol

    "So before a right can be given to something or someone, they must first have the ability to decide whether or not they want to exercise said right. So no, unborn fetuses do not have rights."

    That is absolutely moronic. So a 3 month old baby has no rights? By your logic you can kill a child up till around 3 right? Because until a child is around 3 they have no concept of life and death and therefore can`t exercise their right to live right?
  97. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 9:48 am
    Musuko42

    "What percentage of sperm could become a healthy baby?"

    Your argument makes no sense. Sperm will not become a baby by itself. It requires an action. The percentage of sperm that end up being babies is infinitesimal. A fetus will become a baby unless you take action to kill it.

  98. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 9:52 am
    AvatarJohn

    "death panels"

    Holy s.hit dude. How do you expect anyone to take you remotely seriously? I thought only illiterate rednecks actually believed stuff like that when it gets chirped by Sarah Palin`s special needs bible brigade. However, you seem to be able to write.
  99. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 9:56 am
    patchgrabber

    "Yeah, because after 9 months that baby is good to go and get a job right? Just because the baby would be healthy is irrelevant. If the parent(s) is(are) in no way fit to be a parent, then why make a baby suffer through horrible parents? "

    You usually make intelligent comments, but you went a little retard there. Obviously I am talking about adoption. I would never want someone to be saddled with a kid they don`t want. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there desperate to adopt a child.
  100. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:00 am
    Patchgrabber

    "So a pre-third trimester abortion isn`t even noticed by the fetus."

    Murder wouldn`t even be noticed by someone in a coma. That doesn`t justify it.
  101. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:14 am
    Murder wouldn`t even be noticed by someone in a coma. That doesn`t justify it.
    But the person in a coma was at one point sentient and conscious. This cannot be said of a fetus. My view is that consciousness or sentience is what grants rights. Fetuses do not satisfy this until third trimester.
  102. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:33 am
    @HolyGod

    "Your argument makes no sense. Sperm will not become a baby by itself. It requires an action."

    A foetus requires continued action in order to become a born baby: one example of which is that the mother needs to continue to feed herself.

    If the mother does not do this action (feeding herself), then the baby will not be born.

    Therefore, action is required to turn a foetus into a baby.

    Just as action is required to turn sperm into a baby.

    They are the same thing. The only difference is degree.

    So...am I and my boyfriend mass murderers or not?
  103. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:41 am
    Masuko42

    "one example of which is that the mother needs to continue to feed herself"

    Yes. She needs to continue to feed herself. SHe also needs to not jump out of a plane without a parachute. You are splitting hairs. Fine. I`ll clarify. The mother needs to keep living her life more or less exactly how she was before she got pregnant and all that is required for the baby to survive is that she not intentionally kill it.

    "So...am I and my boyfriend mass murderers or not?"

    If you are trying to imply that I have a problem with homosexuality, you are barking up the wrong tree. I don`t see how you having a boyfriend has anything to do with this discussion. Straight people kill just as much sperm as gay people.
  104. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:47 am
    Masuko42

    "Just as action is required to turn sperm into a baby."

    No. If you leave a fetus alone it will be a baby. If you leave sperm alone it won`t. I don`t understand how you can`t make that distinction.

    "They are the same thing. The only difference is degree."

    What you are saying is flour will become a cake it just requires action. A fully created cake mix sitting in the oven will also become a cake it just requires an action that the oven stay on. It`s just degrees. Come on.

    Everything is "degrees" in that way of thinking. A screw is almost a nuclear weapon, it just requires some other ingredients and assembly.
  105. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:48 am
    @HG: So in your definition, the rights of the fetus supersede the rights of the mother after conception? I don`t believe a zygote or blastocyst has any rights whatsoever, and to apply rights to a thing which has the sentience of a tumour isn`t appropriate, imo.
  106. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 11:24 am
    And if you are saying it has rights, then you`re assuming the fetus is intrinsically valuable?
  107. Profile photo of icklevamp
    icklevamp Female 18-29
    375 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:45 pm
    Weird how people are debating when a foetus becomes sentient as if it`s a thing that we know, we have no way using current technology of knowing how sentient it is, so basically there`s a lot of making crap up on this blog.
  108. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3889 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 12:50 pm
    One of my absolute most favorite friends was a rape baby.
  109. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 1:10 pm
    If you were to pay for a horse and were given a horse embryo or fetus instead you`d be pretty angry and rightfully so. The embryo/fetus isn`t a horse, you can`t race it or ride it. You need a mare and time to make it a horse. Likewise an acorn isn`t an oak tree.

    I`ve often heard Cons say that being antiabortion isn`t the same thing as being anti woman. Fair enough. But being pro birth isn`t the same thing as being pro life either. Women need good prenatal and postnatal care if they are to bring a pregnancy to term. That means a social safety net able to respond to their needs both before and after they give birth, which they are loath to pay for. But boy, for those few moments when the baby`s head is crowning it`s the most precious thing on earth, after that of course it can go directly to hell.
  110. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 1:32 pm
    Weird how people are debating when a foetus becomes sentient as if it`s a thing that we know, we have no way using current technology of knowing how sentient it is
    While it may be impossible to know the exact moment, I`ve already pointed out the physiology of what is required for sentience. It is simply not possible before the third trimester, simple biology. Just because you don`t know doesn`t mean that others don`t.
  111. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 30-39
    2588 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 1:35 pm
    Well what we have here are several rape casings near the rape site, victim clearly has rapey entry wounds.. looks legit to me.
  112. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:14 pm
    QueenZira

    "If you were to pay for a horse and were given a horse embryo or fetus instead you`d be pretty angry and rightfully so. The embryo/fetus isn`t a horse, you can`t race it or ride it."

    If I were to pay for a horse and were given a newborn foal I`d be pretty angry and rightfully so. The newborn foal isn`t a horse, you can`t race it or ride it. So what? I don`t get your analogy. If you were using it to show that fetuses are worthless and can be aborted than didn`t I just use it to show newborn babies are worthless and can be murdered?

  113. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:18 pm
    Patchgrabber

    " the rights of the fetus supersede the rights of the mother after conception"

    No. I already answered this in this thread, but here it is again:

    We aren`t comparing two equal rights. We are comparing the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of a woman to not be (in most cases) mildly inconvenienced for 4 or 5 months.

    If we were comparing equally important rights, i.e. the rights of an unborn baby to live vs. the rights of the woman to live then it is a no brainer. I fully support abortion in that circumstance.
  114. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:18 pm
    Patchgrabber

    "And if you are saying it has rights, then you`re assuming the fetus is intrinsically valuable?"

    Yes. Where are you going with this?
  115. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:20 pm
    Patchgrabber & Queenzira

    This is why I like the abortion issue. It gives me a chance to debate with people with whom I normally always agree. ;)

  116. Profile photo of Pinkminx22
    Pinkminx22 Female 30-39
    1091 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:29 pm
    I personally do not think that I could carry a child of someone who had viciously held me down and violated me. It would be bad enough to have been held down and forced against your will to have sex with some gross f*ck that gets off on doing that to women. This alone is psychologicaly damaging in the first place. I just don`t think it would be right for a woman to be forced against her will to carry a pregnancy that resulted from this horrible act. Honestly, I know that I could not do it, and if there are women out there that could do it..Kudos to them..I just know that I could not do it, and if that makes me a bad person than I will just have to live with being a bad person.Pregnancy for a woman is supposed to be a happy and magical time, It is a special thing that she shares with her partner that she loves and trusts. Pregnancy should not be something that is dark and hateful because the fetus she is carrying is from someone who had forced himself apon her.
  117. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:35 pm
    A foal is worlds apart medically from a zygote or a blastocyst or a fetus. Likewise there is a real medical difference between abortion and infanticide.

    You can`t call a zygote/blastocyst/fetus an "unborn child" because they plainly aren`t. When the pregnancy reaches the stage of viability outside the womb it then becomes an unborn child.

    What we`re talking about here is a woman`s right to control cell development in her own body. And no one should make that choice but her.

  118. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 2:44 pm
    I should mention here that the Daily Show is a tremendously good resource for reasoning through this whole controversy.

    I cannot describe how surprised I was upon first exposure to discover that this usually explosive subject could be discussed civilly and reasonably between smart people, Jon and his guests. Would that all discourse about such major issues be dealt with similarly.
  119. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 3:02 pm
    QueenZIrs

    "What we`re talking about here is a woman`s right to control cell development in her own body. And no one should make that choice but her."

    Absolutely. I agree. And if those cells are put there forcibly against her will she should have every right to get rid of them. However if she engages willfully and participates in an act that leads to those cells being put in her body then at the point she has made a choice. That is pro choice.

    See she has control. Abstinence. Protection. Pills. IUDs. Tubes tied. Any combination of. Women can choose all kinds of methods to not get pregnant. However I don`t think "well if I get pregnant I`ll just go have an abortion" is a reasonable form of birth control.
  120. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 3:25 pm
    Whether or not someone used protection is a choice, but then what she wants to do with the result is again a choice. I can`t punish someone for making a choice I don`t like. This makes more sense when you consider that somewhere around 70% (I think) of fertilized eggs never implant and are naturally aborted during menses.

    For the record I think abortion gets ethically harder the further along development is.

    I wouldn`t want every instance of Choice to be under those conditions either, but the better medical care and education there is the less that will be necessary. And indeed the less it *is* necessary.



  121. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 3:27 pm
    *correction "aborted" isn`t the right word there. It`s more like disposed of actually. Medical vocabulary snafu.
  122. Profile photo of broizfam
    broizfam Male 60-69
    4846 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:14 pm
    indisguise:
    There are more using it for birth control than you would think. There are insurance/welfare plans that pay for abortions so the expense is not an issue, for one thing. Remembering to take a pill is an awful inconvenience in the minds of some, believe it or not, and going to sleep for ten minutes for an abortion, from time to time, is not, for some, a major issue. I once asked a 22 year old having her tenth abortion, "Wouldn`t you like to start on birth control pills?" Her response? "Oh, no! I don`t believe in those!" Many also abort because their contraception failed - happens from time to time. Others because of relationship issues that developed after pregnancy, because a child ties them together for years. Many are related to simple stupidity, including denial. I do still believe in choice. I do, however, much prefer to deliver a healthy baby to a happy family!
  123. Profile photo of broizfam
    broizfam Male 60-69
    4846 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 4:41 pm
    @Musuko42:
    Clearly, you are mass murderers! But then, so are all of us lucky enough to have sex partners because, even when conception takes place, millions of sperm cells died trying.
  124. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 9:57 pm
    @HG: Ok, so you`re saying that a fetus is intrinsically valuable and thus has the right to life. This does not follow. This would summarize that position:
    1)The fetus is identical with, that is, one and the same entity as the being who is later rational and self-conscious.
    2)The being who is later rational and self-conscious is, at that later time, intrinsically valuable.
    3)If a thing is intrinsically valuable, then it is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists.
    4)So, the being who is later rational and self-conscious is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists (2) and (3)
    (5) Therefore, the fetus is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists. (1) and (4)
  125. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15841 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:01 pm
    The point of this post isn`t about abortion. It`s about Todd Akin being a fapping idiot who just gave the election to Claire McCaskill, or as we call her, Chuck Schumer in an ugly dress. He has till 5:00 CDT tomorrow to get out of the race before someone murders him.

    The Mo. Rep. party will be working all night and all day tomorrow to get him to pull out. Meanwhile, Akin shut down his campaign email address and turned off his phone.

    If he stays in, he won`t get a penny from the state or national party, nor will he get a single endorsement from any elected Republican. My guess is he withdraws tomorrow, but if not, expect the state party to get behind one candidate for a write-in campaign.
  126. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 20, 2012 at 10:03 pm
    Perhaps a thing can be intrinsically valuable while lacking a right to life. It is morally wrong, so most of us think, to inflict wanton pain on sentient creatures like dogs, cats, chickens, and so on. If I come across a wild dog, for example, then it would be wrong for me to torture that dog for hours on end. It would be wrong even if nobody cared about the dog or even knew it
    existed. If so, then dogs deserve at least some level of value and respect independently of what anyone thinks about them. Dogs must therefore be intrinsically valuable; and this despite the fact that dogs do not have a right to life.

    So intrinsic value doesn`t necessarily grant the right to life. My question is why can a thing not come to be at one time and yet become intrinsically valuable to a particular degree at another time? Why can a thing not acquire its intrinsic value after it begins to exist? I don`t see why this cannot be the case.
  127. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    August 21, 2012 at 12:45 am
    @HolyGod

    "If you are trying to imply that I have a problem with homosexuality"

    Not my intention. Just making it clear that we are destroying any chance of our possibile babies becoming actual babies.

    "Everything is "degrees" in that way of thinking. A screw is almost a nuclear weapon, it just requires some other ingredients and assembly."

    So until the screw is actually a bomb, don`t call it one.

    - screw + foetus, - bomb + baby.

    You compared a baby to a cake...that`s actually a good analogy. The mother`s womb is the oven. All you need to do is leave it on and the mixture inside becomes a cake.

    So...uncooked cake mix is a cake? I`ll serve you some for your birthday.

    Just because it is likely to BECOME a cake/baby, doesn`t mean you should treat it like one YET.
  128. Profile photo of Musuko42
    Musuko42 Male 18-29
    2850 posts
    August 21, 2012 at 12:48 am
    @HolyGod

    Oh I`ve got you with this one:

    I am 100% certain to become a corpse one day, with no action required whatsoever.

    So surely, you should be treating me like a corpse now? Get the coffin ready for me.

    You`re not allowed to say "that`s different", because it`s not. It`s IDENTICAL logic to what you`re using. You`re saying that a foetus that will become a baby should be treated with the same rights as a baby. I am saying that a person that will become a corpse should be treated with the same rights as a corpse.

    It is the same logic, and it is FLAWED.

    You can claim that the rights of the foetus should be protected, that`s fine. But you should not claim that the foetus should get a baby`s rights because it is a baby...because it is not. Not yet.
  129. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6728 posts
    August 21, 2012 at 10:34 am
    Masuko42

    " I am saying that a person that will become a corpse should be treated with the same rights as a corpse. "

    I`m pretty sure you do have all the same rights as a corpse. You just have extra ones as well.

    "You can claim that the rights of the foetus should be protected, that`s fine. But you should not claim that the foetus should get a baby`s rights because it is a baby...because it is not. Not yet."

    I`ve never said a fetus should get a baby`s rights. You can`t kill a baby to save the mother and you can`t kill a baby if it was the result of a rape. I support abortions in those cases. I`ve also never once said a fetus is a baby. It isn`t. But I believe it has value and should be protected because it will be a baby. Comparing it to a "tumor" or "sperm" is insulting in my opinion.

  130. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 21, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    @HG: Any response to my question?

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