Stockton, California Goes Bankrupt. Who`s Next?

Submitted by: wizemuler 5 years ago in

Here"s why all those cities are going bankrupt. What city will be next? Place your bets now.
There are 54 comments:
Male 8,438
HolyGod-"It is a completely different technology."

Okay, it`s a different technology, the end result is still a family sedan, not a 2-seat sports car.

HolyGod-" Early adopters are paying for the R&D."

I WISH that is what`s happening, because for every one sold, it`s costing US TAXPAYERS Hundreds of thousands of dollars. If it was a PRIVATE venture I wouldn`t have any problem with it.

HolyGod-"If I drive a volt it will cost me $0."

You get your electricity for free? Actually, you`ll be paying about $550-600 per year. MUCH LESS than a gas car, granted, but it would take you about 13 years to make up the difference. Seeing as the battery only has an EIGHT year warranty, and a TEN year life expectancy....you do the math.

HolyGod-"technology that will improve and become more available"

I hope it will, it`s just not there yet.
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Male 336
Well, if I ever need a place to squat, I know where I`ll go.
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Male 9,524
MeGrendel

It is a completely different technology. Different technologies almost always cost a premium when they come out. Early adopters are paying for the R&D. In 5 years the price will probably be much closer to the Carolla.

The prius plug in starts at $32,000 and only has an 11 mile full electric range. The volt can go 35 miles.

Back to the carolla / volt comparison. If I drive a carolla to work every day and I work 30 miles away I`ll spend about $2,000 on gas getting to and from work in a year. If I drive a volt it will cost me $0. Add in additional short range driving and it doesn`t take long for the volt to cost less in the long run.

Also keep in mind that a volt owner gets a $7,500 tax credit. That takes the SRP effectively down to $31,500.

I just think it is short sighted to call it a failure. Hopefully it is the start of a technology that will improve and become more available.

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Male 8,438
HolyGod-"That is MORE of a price difference than between the Volt and Corvette."

THAT`S THE PROBLEM. You`re paying SPORTS CAR PRICE for something that`s basically a low-end family sedan.

You`re attempting to compare this:

To THIS:


When the actually class is closer to THIS:

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Male 15,832
[quote]Every single comment I have ever seen you post is some finger-pointing whine riddled bullsh*t.[/quote]
Let`s see...finger-pointing? Absolutely. Whining? No way. Bullsh*t? Prove it!

All humor is based on the misfortune of others -- from something as simple as someone slipping on a banana peel to some poor SOB standing on a 40th floor window ledge in the dead of winter stark naked with a raging stiffy.

In real life we hesitate to laugh at others` misfortune except when it`s not truly injurious or life-threatening, or when their misfortune is the result of their own folly. This is the case here. These liberals have fouled their nest, and now they want someone else to clean up their mess. I rather enjoy watching them wallow in their self-made misery as long as it doesn`t affect me. However, when the feds are pissing away MY money on stupid crap like "green energy" and "global warming" I tend to get a bit testy.
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Male 9,524
Megrendel

"So, you`re happy that a $32,000 sedan outsold a $80,000 (on average) sports car?"

Again you are distorting the facts to suit your argument. The Volt starts at $40,000 the Corvette starts at $50,000. So you say there is a $48,000 price difference when in reality it is only $10,000. It isn`t that hard to check your facts.

"Why not campare it to a similar type car, say the Toyota Camry"

So you are comparing a premium priced car that is new and electric to a staple economy car that has been around for 30 years and has a base price $18,000 less? That is MORE of a price difference than between the Volt and Corvette.
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Male 2,357
@markust123: [quote]The biggest blame for the slow sales of electric cars is partisan right opinion media.[/quote]
Would you be so kind as to tell me which alternative energy source is your preferred replacement? I`d love to hear your esteemed input on the matter.
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Male 2,357
[quote]the challenges faced by the auto industry now vis-a-vis gasoline to alternative is roughly comparable to the switch from leaded to unleaded gasoline.[/quote]

You must be kidding. How can you compare going from petroleum-based to petroleum-based, and going from peroleum-based to coal-based (electricity)? These are nowhere near the same things - as in, they are completely different. Switching from leaded to unleaded is a much smaller engineering change than switching to electric (or hybrid).

The issue with electric cars still remains twofold: first, we do not have alternative sources with nearly the same energy density as petroleum/coal (unless we start making more nuclear plants); second, we need to find a better means to store energy - current storage technologies are insufficient.
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Male 8,438
Why not campare it to a similar type car, say the Toyota Camry...which only outsold the Volt 24 to 1.
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Male 8,438
patchgrabber-" We get it, you don`t like electric cars."

Actually, I`ve never stated that. Have, in fact, stated the opposite in the past. I`d love the idea a car with fewer moving part and pooloads of torque. I just want it to go more than 40 miles and take less than 8 hours to recharge. (and should be better for the environment...current ones are not).

markust123-"biggest blame for the slow sales of electric cars is partisan right opinion media."

Actually, I think it has to do more with the fact that electric cars are expensive, small, take too long to recharge, don`t go very far and, overall, are not really viable means of transportation (yet).

HolyGod-"However it outsells the Corvette right now."

So, you`re happy that a $32,000 sedan outsold a $80,000 (on average) sports car? I`m pretty sure it outsold the Ferrari, too. Why not campare it to a similar type car, say the Toyota Camry...which only outsold t
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Male 10,855
[quote]The auto industry survived, it`s not the frail child you make it out to be.[/quote]

Courtesy of FOREIGN car makers, yes. Not GM.

markust-That`s 2 cases of Ad Hominem right there.
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Male 9,524
MeGrendel

It is the first full year of production on a newish technology. Different things take time for the public to accept. The prius didn`t fly out of the showrooms when it was first released, but it is pretty successful now. The Volt is expensive and most people can`t afford it. However it outsells the Corvette right now. Does that mean you think the Corvette is not successful? Americans are spoiled with cheap gasoline. If gas went up to $7 a gallon you`d see a huge spike in Volt sales.
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Male 4,854
"@MeGrendel: We get it, you don`t like electric cars."

It`s deeper than that. My dad has the same exact stance. I mean exactly. This time it is a case of MeGrendel just being a Fox News parrot. Or whatever far right entity is brainwashing him. The biggest blame for the slow sales of electric cars is partisan right opinion media. All you have to do on this one is follow the money; it leads right to the oil and coal industries.
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Male 39,603

States cannot file bankruptcy.
So is the next big bailout California?
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Male 39,603

Largest city to go bankrupt? Didn`t New York City file in the 70s?

San Diego is next? They did all the same things.
Didn`t pay the employee pension fund.
Dozens of dozens of bond measures.
Lied or omitted things on the published budget reports.
Massive unfunded building projects, or funded through bond measures.

They use a couple of outrageously high pensions to justify
cutting all pensions. But they should stop making the bank
payments before they stop paying pensions.

The politicians who did this have all moved on to other gigs as State Representatives and county commissioner jobs.
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Male 15,187
It isn`t just municipalities. There`s a whole lot of government and business creaking under the strain of this style of pension fund.
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Male 5,811
@MeGrendel: We get it, you don`t like electric cars. Wall Street housing crash aside, the challenges faced by the auto industry now vis-a-vis gasoline to alternative is roughly comparable to the switch from leaded to unleaded gasoline. The auto industry took a big hit from that one, and the government gave incentives on that too. The auto industry survived, it`s not the frail child you make it out to be.
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Male 303
@freddyferret
Like all the other "United" poo. We bring whatever cash this piece of land can bring in, and in dark time we cut it loose!
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Male 483
OldOllie: I come here almost daily, but don`t make a lot of comments. However, I do spend time reading what people have to say on these forums. Your incessant liberal bashing aside, you are a terribly negative person. Seriously, what DOESN`t get your greasy panties in a bunch?? Every single comment I have ever seen you post is some finger-pointing whine riddled bullsh*t.

Feel free to reply to this with another toddler hissy fit. It`s what I`ve come to expect of you.
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Male 15,832
These bankrupt cities ALL have one thing in common: they`re ALL run by Democrats. And Obama is doing EXACTLY the same thing to the country.
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Male 11,739
We should just drop a few big bombs into the San Andreas fault and send California out into the Pacific. The entire state will be bankrupt in under 10 years.
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Male 8,438
HolyGod-"It is the #1 selling electric car in the US"

Which puts it ranking as the 144th best selling car in the US. (And the 143 models in front of it are not costing taxpayers in excess of $200,000 per car.) And it`s selling so well that they stopped production for Five Weeks this year because they CAN NOT SELL THEM.

HolyGod-"Only an estimated 5% are fleet purchases."

That`s funny, because in December that number was 35% were fleet purchases. (it helps that the GM tries not to report Fleet sales of the Volt.) That same month, two out of every three dealerships that carry the volt DID NOT MANAGE TO SELL ONE.

You have a very funny idea of what constitutes `pretty well`.

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Male 9,524
Megrendel

"How`s that Volt working out? If it wasn`t for the guv`mint buying the damn things, they wouldn`t sell a single one."

Pretty well I guess. It is the #1 selling electric car in the US, it outsells the Prius. According to The Green Car Website, the Chevy Volt posted sales of 1,849 units in July, year to-date figures have reached 10,666 units.

Only an estimated 5% are fleet purchases, the west have been sold to consumer dealerships.
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Male 8,438
@markust123

A managed bankruptcy is exactly what should have happened.

markust123-"The bailouts worked. Get over it."

Yes, they worked exactly as planned. They saved the Auto Unions and guranteed the mindless Union Brothers and Sisters would cointinue to vote Obama.

On the bad side, the automakers are still losing money, which also means the taxpayers are losing money on top of what they`ve already lost.

How`s that Volt working out? If it wasn`t for the guv`mint buying the damn things, they wouldn`t sell a single one.
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Male 10,855
To add insult to injury to the taxpayer, GM isn`t going to raise stock back up why? Because Uncle Sam still has 500 million shares he wants to liquidate those shares IMMEDIATELY. Which isn`t going to happen because GM doesn`t have the money.
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Male 10,855
In 2011 the White House owned 500 million shares of GM, in order to pay back the tax payers they would`ve have to sold those shares at $53 per share. Unfortunately at the time they were hovering around $30 and, as I`ve pointed out, it was going down. So either way the tax payer did NOT get their money back.
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Male 10,855
But we should stick to automotive companies.
So: Today, Five years ago
Toyota: 81.69, 110
Honda: 32.24, 32
VW AG: 33.40, 48
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Male 4,891
@Stockton, CA - GET A DAMN JOB, YA LAZY FREELOADING CITY!
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Male 10,855
[quote]Which part?[/quote]

The Bailouts of course. GM still makes pooty cars and loses money on all of them. Which is why GM`s stocks are down at $20.42 now from $37.00 in March 2011. Meanwhile foreign companies are actually making cars Americans like. The company I work at (Fedex) is at $90, down from $100 5 years ago, no bailout. It`s competitor UPS $76 steady compared to 5 years ago.
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Male 4,854
I`m always up for learning @Cajun247. I`ll look into the Auto bailouts. Last I heard they were successful. But now you have me questioning what I have heard. Which is a good thing. Never completely trust the news.
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Male 2,357
@markust123: Michigan has voted Democrat during the last 5 elections - it was not his state to lose.

As for the auto industry, GM stock has fallen nearly 50% since last year. How is this successful?
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Male 4,854
"All evidence to the contrary my friend."

Which part? It definitely isn`t the part about him losing the Michigan vote. That is a cold hard fact.
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Male 4,854
You know I was talking about just the auto bailouts @HumanAction. Quit twisting my words.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Romney was so wrong he has lost the Michigan vote. The bailouts worked. Get over it.[/quote]

All evidence to the contrary my friend.
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Male 2,357
@markust123: So this is how we wish to have the conversation then? OK, so be it.

"The bailouts worked. Get over it."

Clearly. This is evident by both our prospering economy and our enviously low unemployment rates, yes? Best to leave matters of economics to the Austrians.
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Male 373
@uatme: Liberals aren`t idiots. Neither are conservatives. Rather they (on average) don`t listen but instead jump to assumptions about each others` motivations and start spewing ad homina.
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Male 4,854
"Just this once, Romney was right."

Romney was so wrong he has lost the Michigan vote. The bailouts worked. Get over it.
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Male 2,357
I concur with Cajun - bankruptcy would have been the better road in the long term. For now, we have continued to prop up an industry that will inevitably fail (and go into bankruptcy anyways).

In this case, Romney was correct.
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Male 10,855
@markust

You missed the important part:

[quote]In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.[/quote]

So yes, in the short-term some people would suffer. Those same people would`ve moved on and found a better job, and it would`ve been better for the economy overall. Just this once, Romney was right.
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Male 10,855
I actually HOPE the Federal Govt goes bankrupt, I`d prefer that to a police state. At least then they wouldn`t be able to enforce their libraries worth of laws.
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Male 4,854
"Luckily, The auto unions were bailed out and made whole (not the auto companies, the auto unions...many non-union auto workers lost their pension...at the order of the White House)."

It would have been worse if they had taken Romney`s advice. From his own article:

"A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs."
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Male 10,855
[quote]IABers I take it american liberals are idiots[/quote]

Conservatives have their own fair share of idiots as well (Bush, Romney et al) but I think the liberals tend to be more prominent.
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Male 1,084
based on comments I`ve scene from IABers I take it american liberals are idiots?
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Male 76
somewhere in the state of illinois is next.
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Male 1,243
It`s summed up into 1 word: Greed.
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Male 2,357
@HolyGod: "I run a business. I set my 2013 budget off my 2013 revenue estimates."

As do I. Depending on your accounting methodology, you budget based of what you have, or what you foresee. We budget based on our cash onhand. Many other companies do the same, such as Walgreens.
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Male 2,357
@HolyGod: "Deregulating the banks caused the financial crisis"

You are misinformed sir. The banks were deregulated, but were allowed to make loans with governmental backing. This is not what libertarians want.

The banks should have been wholly responsible for subprime loans from the beginning to the end. If they made poor decisions and loaned money to those unable to repay the loans, then those banks should have been left to suffer their fates.

In addition, the government imposed regulations that encouraged banks to make subprime loans. Deregulation did not cause the crisis - government intervention did.
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Male 10,855
[quote]Deregulating the banks caused the financial crisis.[/quote]

Apples and oranges mister, this is the result of unions gone crazy asking for money that doesn`t exist. NOT deregulation.

[quote]Nobody writes a budget with money they HAVE, they write it with money they PROJECT they will have.[/quote]

Well now Stockton is projected to have NO money left. So the point`s moot.
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Male 8,438
HolyGod

Look at all of these cities that are filing for bankruptcy, they have one main thing in common.

MASSIVE pension obligations.

What is one thing these cities had in common with the Auto industry that needed bailing out?

MASSIVE pension obligations.

Luckily, The auto unions were bailed out and made whole (not the auto companies, the auto unions...many non-union auto workers lost their pension...at the order of the White House).

These cities set their budgets on false premises (even MISSLEADING premises if you watch the video).

But the Public Sector and Unions don`t care what the budget is, or is not, as long as they get massive amounts of taxpayer money.
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Male 9,524
MeGrendel

You set budgets based off your projectable revenue. Nobody writes a budget with money they HAVE, they write it with money they PROJECT they will have. I run a business. I set my 2013 budget off my 2013 revenue estimates. I don`t have it already.

Nobody could have projected what was going to happen to their revenue.

I`m not saying they spent their money wisely. I don`t know that they did. But the problem is the sudden and catastrophic loss of revenue.

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Male 8,438
Liberals spending money they don`t have?



Public sector taking advantage of the working sector?



Unions were involved?



On the other hand, Catherine Nance has nice bewbs.
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Male 9,524
I like how they gloss right over "we don`t have the revenue anymore".

So reason.org is a libertarian think tank.
Libertarians want less government regulation.
Deregulating the banks caused the financial crisis.
The financial crisis caused the "dwindiling revenue".
Reason.org puts out a video blaming government for Stockton going bankrupt.

Love the reasoning.
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Male 19
Link: Stockton, California Goes Bankrupt. Who`s Next? [Rate Link] - Here`s why all those cities are going bankrupt. What city will be next? Place your bets now.
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