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Date: 08/07/12 11:31 AM

130 Responses to Obamacare WILL Raise Papa John Pizza Prices

  1. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18502 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 11:29 am
    Link: Obamacare WILL Raise Papa John Pizza Prices - Oh snap.
  2. Profile photo of boogarcym
    boogarcym Male 40-49
    316 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 11:35 am
    Clicky clicky :-(
  3. Profile photo of Mr_Ike
    Mr_Ike Male 18-29
    164 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 11:47 am
    And once again, Fancy fails to make the clicky-clicky piccy be clickable...
  4. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 11:51 am
    So we have to pay 15 or 20 cents more for a pizza so that papa john has to give the people making it some health insurance?

    Cry me a f.ucking river.

  5. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36217 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:02 pm

    "we will find tactics to shallow out any Obamacare costs and core strategies to pass that cost onto consumers"
    That means raise prices. Why can`t they just say "raise prices" instead of that corportate-babble?
    "core strategies".... geezsh!
  6. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:08 pm
    You A*SHOLE. This is clearly designed for people to read the headline and not the article, and freak out. You sneaky, deceptive BASTARD. Oh god, another 15 cents added to my pizza--I`ll go broke!

    ...not that I`ve had a Papa John`s pizza in years, anyway.
  7. Profile photo of DromEd
    DromEd Male 40-49
    1851 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:11 pm
    It`s a tax. The price of just about everything will have to go up. Remember when Obama said he wasn`t going to raise taxes on the middle class?
  8. Profile photo of fancylad
    fancylad Male 30-39
    18502 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:17 pm
    What`s up DrProfessor`s ass today? Jesus.
  9. Profile photo of korahn
    korahn Male 30-39
    1249 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:19 pm
    First, how will the health care cause businesses to "go broke" or "increase costs"? Second, meh, only 15-20 cents. Third, what about Papa John`s in Canada? I really don`t understand all this hatred over "Obamacare." We`ve had government health care up here for a long time and we`re fine. "Wah wah, the privatized companies will be losing money." Good. drat `em.
  10. Profile photo of mikelae18
    mikelae18 Male 18-29
    79 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:24 pm
    From the article: "Our best estimate is that the Obamacare will cost 11 to 14 cents per pizza, or 15 to 20 cents per order from a corporate basis,"

    Considering I just round up when I tip already, a few nickels isn`t going to hurt my wallet.
  11. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2346 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:26 pm
    so a guy that sells food that causes obesity is complaining now that people need healthcare to combat the growing number of heart attacks...

    his pizza sucks anyway...big time.

  12. Profile photo of jamie76
    jamie76 Male 30-39
    2346 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:30 pm
    btw, any time a company passes on the cost of doing business to the consumer, the consumer usually isn`t real happy about it and decides to change companies.

    for example, I will continue to support my local pizza place which makes awesome pizza and cost less than pappa crap`s place.
  13. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:36 pm
    @Fancy--Had too much coffee. I`ve been responding to everything in absolute extremes.
  14. Profile photo of katluver
    katluver Male 18-29
    321 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:51 pm
    Nice, a large business owner whinging on about higher costs...
  15. Profile photo of ohplease
    ohplease Male 50-59
    567 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    Papa John`s pizza is garbage. The absolute pootiest ingrediants money can buy.
  16. Profile photo of wsmithpa
    wsmithpa Male 30-39
    87 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 12:59 pm
    what a dooshbag.
  17. Profile photo of Arcval
    Arcval Male 18-29
    304 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 1:10 pm
    Their pizza is pooe anyway. Tastes like ass.
  18. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 2:30 pm
    Why? Why do business owners alienate half their target customers? Isn`t that the first thing you learn not to do while getting your business degree?
  19. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 2:49 pm
    Let`s see, I`m a Republican business owner, so, when Obama does anything, I`ll bitch about it and say that Obama is running me out of business or causing me to raise my prices.

    And, truth is, when Bush was in office, I bitched about him giving us tax rebates when we had a budget deficit. I asked, "What?! Why?! It`s not like this $200-$300 per family is going to stimulate the economy."

    So, I guess they`re all damned if they do, damned if they don`t.
  20. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5884 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 2:56 pm
    Let see, Papa John has to raise the price of his product $0.15 per unit due to Obamacare.

    The Cheese Supplier to Papa John has to raise the price of his product $0.15 per unit due to Obamacare. Means increase raw material costs, Papa John has to raise his price more to cover this cost.

    The Tomato Sauce Supplier to Papa John has to raise the price of his product $0.15 per unit due to Obamacare. Means increase raw material costs, Papa John has to raise his price more to cover this cost.

    The Flour Supplier... etc.

    The Olive Supplier... etc.

    The Lettuce Supplier... etc.

    How many ingredients in Pizza & Subs?

    Just keep adding. The $0.15 is just the DIRECT increase. EVERY raw material will see an increase, the costs go up, profits go down.

    How about a $10 pizza that now costs $20?
  21. Profile photo of panth753
    panth753 Female 18-29
    9186 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 2:57 pm
    Their pizza tastes disgusting anyway, so I`m not going to complain.
  22. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 3:32 pm
    MeGrendel

    COME ON DUDE. You can`t post stuff this stupid and get away with it.

    1 pizza probably doesn`t even have $0.15 of cheese on it period, let alone is this going to INCREASE the cost $0.15. There certainly isn`t $0.15 worth of flour or tomato sauce on 1 pizza, not at the bulk rate they get.

    You can make a point about supplier costs increasing. They are probably valid. But we`re talking a $11 pizza instead of $10. You know what? If all the employees at Papa John`s, the cheese supplier, the tomato supplier, the flour supplier, the olive supplier, etc get to have health insurance and all that happens is the price of pizza goes up $1, GREAT.



  23. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 4:07 pm
    Or, imagine if they band together and get Pizza Consortium rates on their insurance. They might actually SAVE money!
  24. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5884 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 4:21 pm
    HolyGod-"1 pizza probably doesn`t even have $0.15 of cheese on it period,"

    the cheese on a Pizza runs around $1.15 to $2.30 (depending on size). It`s the most expensive ingredient on the pizza.

    HolyGod-"let alone is this going to INCREASE the cost $0.15."
    1) I did not say the price of cheese each pizza would go up $0.15 per pizza, but per unit of cheese (i.e. bag).

    HolyGod-" isn`t $0.15 worth of flour or tomato sauce on 1 pizza, not at the bulk rate they get."

    Again, not per pizza, per tomato sauce unit (i.e. a can) (and it runs around $0.28 for tomato sauce $0.44 for dough, mostly flour, per pizza.) Each adds a little more to the overall costs.

    HolyGod-"get to have health insurance and all that happens is the price of pizza goes up $1, GREAT."

    Okay, but what if it turns out it goes up $5? $7? $10? At some point it starts hurting sales.
  25. Profile photo of jops360
    jops360 Male 30-39
    689 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 5:53 pm
    i love how they justify the rising cost of food. just blame it on Obama. fact is there are more people each day, the average lifespan is increasing and the people are living longer. this means that we need more food but we dont get more land to make the food. so there is less food per person every year not to mention that we waste more food that we ever eat. this causes the rise in cost. what needs to stop are these stupid luxury taxes. sugary foods, cigarets, liqueur, and soda need to taxed the same as anything else. eating health is a choice, the government does not need to force this choice on me by making me pay more. all they are doing is hurting the main buyer, the poor. whats next? taxing more for those who only have liability insurance on their cars, a new tax for renters, or maby a new tax for those with bad credit? quit singling out the poor all while helping the rich not pay their taxes.
  26. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 7:32 pm
    HEY AMERICANS: That`s 10-20 cents PER pizza, PER breakfast, lunch & dinner. YOUR prices will rise because YOU will pay for "Obamacare" one wat (TAXES!) or another (PRICES!).
    Since every business that doesn`t get a Papal Dispensation, oh I mean a "Gov`t Exemption", will have their costs go up, ALL the prices will go up as a result.
    Suck it up! YOU voted for Obama!
    HOPE you like getting less CHANGE! lolz!
  27. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31799 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 7:40 pm
    What`s up DrProfessor`s ass today? Jesus.
    @FancyLad: In all honesty? THAT is what we "right wingers" get from the oh-so tolerant left EVERY day! Uniform, consistant, hate.

    Or, imagine if they band together and get Pizza Consortium rates on their insurance.
    @SmagBoy: You be delusional! IF they could do that? they would have done so LONG AGO because in a free market they`d make more dough!!!

    NOW in the Obama market they ALL have increased costs, which will, no matter what @jamie76 thinks, WILL be passed along one way or another.

    Welcome to the Right Side! lolz!
  28. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 7:52 pm
    MeGrendel

    "I did not say the price of cheese each pizza would go up $0.15 per pizza, but per unit of cheese (i.e. bag)"

    I didn`t say you did. But when you say a pizza`s price is going to increase $10 I can only assume you are adding $0.15 for every ingredient and having the pizza have 66 ingredients.

    If you would like to avoid exaggerating I will return the favor.

    Now let`s be realistic. If Obamacare increases a $10 pizza by $0.15 that is 1.5%. Let`s say all the suppliers` cost go up 1.5%. If there are $5 worth of ingredients in a pizza the cost of those ingredients goes up 8 cents. So when you say $10, or even $7 or $5 it just ruins the discussion.
  29. Profile photo of lotus78
    lotus78 Female 30-39
    28 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 8:09 pm
    "You want to get healthcare even if you have a condition you were born with and not have lifetime limits that you could run through in a few years but guess what, you`ll have to pay $0.15 more for crappy ass pizza to get it!" Ahhh, priorities.
  30. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 8:29 pm
    5Cats

    You live in Canada (supposedly). You have universal healthcare right? Are you still able to afford pizza there? Is your life really so much worse?

    We aren`t talking about handouts. We are talking about health insurance for people with jobs. People that work. People that may not be able to afford it otherwise. Millions of people in this country are hard working, tax paying, productive members of society living under a soul crushing life long debt that is one disease or accident away. It is a s.hitty way to live. Nobody should have their life ruined because they get sick.
  31. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5884 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 8:42 pm
    HolyGod-"I can only assume"

    That is correct, you can only assume as what I actually write is much harder to argue.

    Why, if it weren`t for `assuming` and `inferring` and `missunderstanding`, liberals couldn`t field an argument.
  32. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 8:58 pm
    MeGrendel

    Come on, I just destroyed your argument and you come back with that? Weaksauce.
  33. Profile photo of carmium
    carmium Female 50-59
    6381 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 9:50 pm
    Oh, man, where will this Medicaid and Obamacare and whatnot ever end? If you`re not careful, America, you could end up having affordable healthcare available to everyone in the country, just like the rest of the western world. Heaven forfend.
  34. Profile photo of OldOllie
    OldOllie Male 60-69
    15844 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 9:56 pm
    This is all just a bunch of silly right-wing propaganda. Everybody knows that all the government has to do is pass a law saying we can all have free health care, and nobody will ever have to pay for it ever again.

    What part of "FREE" don`t you conservatives understand?
  35. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 9:58 pm
    I never understand the whole "America needs to join the rest of the `civilized` world and get healthcare" argument. Firstly, it`s a little douchey and Euro-centric, calling themselves the civilized, anointed ones.

    Secondly, there is no MONEY! Europe is finally see that play out. It`s nice to give out free stuff, but it`s not free. People have to pay for it and the west, having lagged behind the rest of the world in growth since 1945, no longer has the resources to fund this kind of state.

    Ultimately, you`re condemning your children to poverty. Inflation, unemployment, no growth, insurmountable debt - there have been zero steps to solve these problems. People think they`ll just magically start going away next year. They never do.
  36. Profile photo of keith2
    keith2 Male 18-29
    2587 posts
    August 7, 2012 at 10:22 pm
    Oh dear sweet jesus, I ain`t payin no gawd damn 20 freakin extra cents for no freakin pizza! `Murika! Derpa Derrrrrp!!
  37. Profile photo of marrykinmy
    marrykinmy Female 40-49
    20 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 6:25 am
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  38. Profile photo of MrTwidget
    MrTwidget Male 30-39
    795 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 6:39 am
    No matter where I see this guy he still looks like he belongs in a wax museum.
  39. Profile photo of Grendel
    Grendel Male 40-49
    5884 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 6:52 am
    HolyGod-" I just destroyed your argument and you come back with that?"

    If you consider `assuming` certain elements of my argument, then arguing what you assume rather than what I actually wrote as `destroying`, then.....that would make you a master of the liberal debater.

    Liberals must utilize fallacies of logic to win any argument. They must `interpret` what the other side says, look for `code-words` or otherwise `assume` or `infer` what the other side `really means`, as they usually cannot argue the facts.

    I`m just waiting for you to trot out the `Racist` argument.

    Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good one is at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around the table looking victorious.

    If you `beleive` you destroyed my argument, please remember that you couldn`t even get the price of cheese right.
  40. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 7:34 am
    THAT is what we "right wingers" get from the oh-so tolerant left EVERY day! Uniform, consistant, hate.
    5cats, you can barely make a post without blaming Obama or the dems for something, pot meet kettle.

    @MeGrendel: Well let`s analyze this one post you made and see how many logical fallacies are in it shall we?
    Liberals must utilize fallacies of logic to win any argument. They must `interpret` what the other side says, look for `code-words` or otherwise `assume` or `infer` what the other side `really means`, as they usually cannot argue the facts.
    Hasty generalization
    I`m just waiting for you to trot out the `Racist` argument.
    Red herring.
    Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon...
    ad hominem.
    If you `beleive` you destroyed my argument, please remember that you couldn`t even get the price of cheese right.
    ignoratio elenchi.
  41. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:28 am
    My god - how petty we`ve become.

    Some of you argue that you don`t eat Papa Johns, so it doesn`t affect you.

    The rights of all, even private businesses, to operate freely of government intervention is worth fighting for. The government cannot increase our countries wealth - only private industry can. The government cannot produce, they can only redistribute.

    Some of you argue that 15-20 cents per pizza isn`t worth complaining about. Still more argue that the marginal cost is worth public funded healthcare.

    The economic policies of these last two presidents are causing inflation. The effects have been temporarily mitigated by various masking techniques (artificially lowering interest rates for example). At some point, the party will end and we will all suffer greatly for it. Austrian economics dictate this.
  42. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:37 am
    @HA: Well although not specifically outlined in your constitution, imo a person has the right to not go into bankruptcy and have their credit rating destroyed because they were shot and couldn`t afford the ER visit. Of course I know you disagree but to many people the 15-20 cent pizza increase is worth taking care of your sick and wounded.
  43. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:41 am
    @patchgrabber: Private charity and individual contributions will always occur for those deserving.

    Please allow me to share a story about my niece. She was born with a heart defect that has required three open-heart surgeries thus far. While my sister (her mother) is fully insured, the insurance company would only pay for palliative care - thus, signed my nieces death certificate.

    Through family contributions and community support, we were able to pay the hundred of thousands of dollars worth of medical bills. My sister, who makes a decent salary as a nurse, is not in bankruptcy.

    You sir, underestimate the good will of your fellow man.
  44. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:43 am
    @patchgrabber: You also make the assumption that a small rise in the cost of pizza will be the only consequence of public healthcare. I`m sure we both know that this is untrue.
  45. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:45 am
    @HA: An inspiring story, my sympathy to your family for your niece`s condition. While it is admirable that you managed to raise the money, my experience with people has usually been on the negative. Besides, what about people without family? Not as easy to raise money when you don`t have that kind of support net. You may be oversimplifying the issue with your anecdote.
  46. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:49 am
    @HA: Yes, I`m not so naive so as to think that pizzas will cover the cost of healthcare, but most developed countries agree to bear that cost, the US is one of the only developed countries that doesn`t.



    Now while I`m not usually an advocate for argumentum ad populum, I believe the benefits of universal healthcare far outweigh the costs.
  47. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:51 am
    @patchgrabber: Perhaps, but there are many opportunities for everyone.

    The man without a family can still purchase his own private health insurance. Typically, after this point people will be concerned with "what if he can`t afford it."

    I have never know hospitals to turn away care - even before EMTALA in 1986. Catholic hospitals (privately owned), used to be prominent around the country and accepted patients for little to no fee. There have always been, and will always be medical professionals willing to render life-saving care for those deserving.

    If a man smokes his entire life, and does not concern himself with buying insurance, then I do not feel sympathy when he cannot pay for chemotherapy. When a 20 year old man is shot at no cause of his own, I will do what I can to help him.
  48. Profile photo of Ozmose
    Ozmose Male 30-39
    448 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:59 am
    **** Papa John`s.

    The guy has a lot of balls whining about having to provide his employees with health insurance. Perhaps, if he paid them more than a few scraps above minimum wage out of his millions, and millions, and millions of dollars in profits each year they could afford to buy it on their own.

    In fact, **** every prick CEO that refuses to pay the people that do the actual real work, a decent living wage.
  49. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:03 am
    @HA: I`m not sure of the exact numbers, but hospitals that perform ER work for free would definitely be few and far between. That is not a viable option. I also know that EMTALA makes treatment mandatory, but doesn`t mean they can`t sell your bill to collections agencies that destroy your credit. I also think you`re downplaying the actual amount of bankruptcies due to medical bills which this 2001 study found to be at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies in those 5 states. So much for the "help being there for those who deserve it."
  50. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:05 am
    cont`d: The same researcher also found that between 2001 and 2007, the amount of bankruptcies attributable to medical problems increased by 49.6% up to 62.1% total.
  51. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:13 am
    @patchgrabber: So much for the "help being there for those who deserve it."

    This is an unfair statement and unfair statistics as they represent a system I do not endorse. I am not suggesting that the current (or previous if you count Obamacare) was correct. The system I endorse has long been dead due to governmental intervention. Medicare and Medicaid killed it. Before that time, Catholic hospitals were much more common.

    In addition, I think you misunderstand what I meant with "free" care. Those Catholic hospitals would charge patients that were able to pay proper amounts, and would charge "what could be afforded" for those less fortunate.

    Just as in clinics today, you would not expect to receive top of the line care - but life-saving care was available.
  52. Profile photo of Gerry1of1
    Gerry1of1 Male 50-59
    36217 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:18 am

    HumanAction, "I have never know hospitals to turn away care"
    That was before hospitals became for-profit companies. Here in San Diego, Scripps or Sharp {the 2 largest} won`t even admit you in to see a doctor until you`ve proven you can pay. The County Hospital closed due to lack of funding so all the illegals go to UCSD Medical Center. That`s the only hospital that doesn`t require proof of payment before services rendered.
  53. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:20 am
    @patchgrabber: Please allow me to share a quote from Dr. Paul:

    n the days before Medicare and Medicaid, the poor and elderly were admitted to hospitals at the same rate they are now, and received good care. Before those programs came into existence, every physician understood that he or she had a responsibility towards the less fortunate and free medical care was the norm. Hardly anyone is aware of this today, since it doesn’t fit into the typical, by the script story of government rescuing us from a predatory private sector.

    This correlates well with the discussions I`ve had with many doctors during my education (Biomedical Science).
  54. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:22 am
    @Gerry1of1: Fair enough; I was being rather exaggerative to emphasize my point that the old system - sans Medicare - was care focused rather than profit focused.

    This current system (and Obamacare in my opinion) is a travesty that has been allowed to flourish only due to governmental intervention.
  55. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:26 am
    Papa John`s already offers health benefits to managers, drivers, store workers, and even to part-time employees. The only change that "Obamacare" will bring is they will be able to save money by using the exchanges. Also pizza industries are one of the few industries that increased revenue during the recession. He has nothing to bitch about. But if he wants to alienate half his target buyers that is his choice. But it is a stupid one.
  56. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:32 am
    @HA: Well here you are again living in paradise. The old system may have been good, but conservatives in your country wanted privatized healthcare and this is what you get for privatizing something that never should have been privatized in the first place. What good is wishing for the "good ol` days" when they are long gone and will never return? Provide a solution that could work and maybe we can talk.

    The majority of people who bemoan medicare are doctors, because they are tasked with cutting costs. Before medicare an economist estimated that only 55% of seniors had health insurance, and the great majority of seniors like the program. Even the capitalist capital of the world, Hong Kong, has a two-tier system similar to Canada`s.
  57. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 9:37 am
    I think I stumbled onto the truth. With Obama pulling us out of the Bush recession Papa Johns wants to get Mitt elected so the Republicans can put us into another recession. That way people will not be able to afford to eat out again and will buy more pizza dinners. It`s genius.
  58. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:04 am
    @patchgrabber: Well here you are again living in paradise. The old system was good, but liberals in my country wanted socialized healthcare and this is what we get for socializing something that never should have been socialized in the first place. What good is wishing for these "brand new days" when they cannot work properly and do not condone fairness? Provide a solution that could work and maybe we can talk.

    The majority of people who bemoan medicare are patients, because they are tasked with cutting costs. Before medicare a Keynesian (not Austrian) economist estimated that only 55% of seniors had health insurance, and the great majority of seniors like the program. Even the capitalist capital of the world, Hong Kong, has a two-tier system similar to Canada`s - though it is very much unlike Obamacare.

    @markust123: With Obama pulling us out of the Bush recession.

    Ha - good one.
  59. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:12 am
    We can all devolve the conversation into lesser arguments, but should we not continue to have an intelligent dicussion?

    Markust - I cannot take you seriously. You make outrageous, unsupported claims and flee from them the moment contradictory evidence is unveiled. See your discussion earlier about bailouts for evidence of this. You have yet to provide any support for your claim that the economy is better off now.

    @patchgrabber: You continuously supply arguments that "others are doing it, so you should too." This is twice now in the last couple of hours. In addition, your arguments claim to have some inside insight while you fail to demonstrate it.

    For instance, The majority of people who bemoan medicare are doctors... By far, patients bemoan healthcare more.

    Also, only 55% of seniors had health insurance. This says nothing about health care, merely insurance.

  60. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:13 am
    @HA: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I`m surprised that you have no intelligent thoughts of your own or even good arguments and you resort to mockery. Tsk tsk, telling of a lazy mind.

    Socialized medicine has been adopted by many countries as I`ve shown, and I don`t know one that is saying "Dang, I wish we would have privatized medicine." And of course Hong Kong and Canada`s systems are much different from Obamacare, don`t be wilfully ignorant, it makes you look silly. The HMOs are so ingrained in your economy now that to go to a system exactly like ours is just not possible for your country, so Obamacare is trying to work with what they`ve got, which isn`t much. I also don`t see how patients are tasked with cutting costs, you`re just being ridiculous now. Good day to you.
  61. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:15 am
    MeGrendel

    "If you consider `assuming` certain elements of my argument"

    So you choose to focus on the paragraph where I am being sarcastic and making fun of you for being so incredibly hyperbolic? Obviously I don`t think that is how you came to the number. Nobody thinks there are 66 ingredients in a pizza. I was pointing out how exaggerative you were being with your $10 remark.

    How about the paragraph where I was actually being serious and laid out how increased supplier costs would only take the pizza up another 8 cents? Are you just choosing to ignore that?

    "you couldn`t even get the price of cheese right"

    Apologies that I don`t stay up to date on cheese prices. I don`t work at a pizza restaurant. The fact is the ingredients in a pizza don`t cost more than $5. If they did Little Caesars wouldn`t be able to sell a $5 large pepperoni pizza.

    The whole point of your original argument was ASSUMING as well. Then you p
  62. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:17 am
    @HA: Funny, I believe it was you who said that when states witness other states doing something right that theoretically they should adopt the same policy, yet now you criticize me for telling you to look at other SUCCESSFUL healthcare models? Hypocrisy thine name is HumanAction.

    And all you do is say that my arguments have no insight, when all you are doing is saying how things used to be. I`ve demonstrated facts about how much bankruptcy is caused by your medical "care" and you have nothing useful to say against it.
  63. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:18 am
    @patchgrabber: How many Americans have you seen seeking treatment in your hospitals? I`ve seen many Canadians here.

    Good day to you sir.
  64. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:20 am
    @patchgrabber:

    Funny, I believe it was you who said that when states witness other states doing something right that theoretically they should adopt the same policy

    You miss the critial point (as it typical with your reasoning). It should only be adopted if it is ultimately successful and well done.

    Your lack of capacity to fully understand arguments is astonishing.
  65. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:22 am
    @patchgrabber: I have errands to attend to - fret not though, I shall return (an hour or so) to continue shaming you.

    You may wish to garner stronger "facts" before then.
  66. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:22 am
    MeGrendel

    This may shock you, but I don`t consider myself a liberal. I don`t put myself in a box. I have no party allegiance. I voted for Bush the first time. I`d vote for a Republican again no problem. I have socially liberal tendencies because I don`t think it is the governments business if I smoke weed, gamble, pay for sex, or marry a guy. I don`t do those things, but I feel like I should be able to. At the same time I`m against abortion and for the death penalty. I think government spending and taxes should go way down. I just happen to think it should be cut from "defense" spending or federal bureaucracy, and not from helping poor or sick people.

    We probably agree on a lot of stuff. But I`m usually only vocal on here about religion, gay rights, and the economy.

    My philosophy is pretty simple. If you aren`t hurting someone else you should be allowed to do whatever you want that makes you happy. That philosophy aligns me with liberals more often
  67. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:26 am
    "Markust - I cannot take you seriously. You make outrageous, unsupported claims and flee from them the moment contradictory evidence is unveiled. See your discussion earlier about bailouts for evidence of this. You have yet to provide any support for your claim that the economy is better off now."

    I started ignoring you because you twisted my words around to make my statement about the auto-bailouts into all the bailouts and the economy. You`re a snake and not worth my time.

    Also if you didn`t recognize that my last comment below was satire you are retarded.
  68. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:30 am
    @HA: Well my facts must be good enough for you to ignore them, because I`m still waiting to hear back about your bankruptcy problem.

    True, some Canadians go to the US for some surgeries, etc., but what about all the Americans coming here for prescription drugs? See? I can provide irrelevant yet true tangents as well.

    You miss the critial point (as it typical with your reasoning). It should only be adopted if it is ultimately successful and well done.
    Actually many universal health care systems are well run, and better run than your system at the very least, which should be enough reason to switch to a system that works better.

    I am also still waiting for your groundbreaking solution, but I sense that you have none and just want another reason to hate the government.

    When you come back, I suggest that you present ANY facts. I`m waiting with baited breath.
  69. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:32 am
    Also if you think you`re "shaming" me, it must just be your ego needing stroking, because I`ve presented numbers and better solutions, whereas you`ve presented diddly.
  70. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 10:52 am
    Patchgrabber-The 46.2% you cite (courtesy of Himmelstein) includes people who didn`t even cite medical bills as a reason for bankruptcy. The assumption being that if medical reasons are involved its associated costs are involved the process. Whereas more likely other reasons such as credit cards would`ve still driven them into bankruptcy.

    Interestingly enough the Fed did their own study and found that medical bills attributed to around 5.5% in 2001 and 5.8% in 2007 of all debt. Similiarly the DoJ conducted a survey of 5000 bankruptcy cases in 2000 and 2002 and found that 90% of all cases did not involve medical debt exceeding $5000.
  71. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 11:22 am
    @patchgrabber: No need to be so upset - calm down my Canadian friend. As for ignoring your "facts", I`ve ignored none. Please reread my previous comments and you will find that I have adequately addressed them all.

    As for your wish that I reference more statistics, Healthcare Cost Rates Grow Since Late 60s. I believe that you will see that this correlates well with the creation of Medicare (1965). Government is the problem.

    As for my ego, it is already quite large enough, but thank you for the suggestion =).

    My groundbreaking solution is quite simple - a free market. Now calm down, we haven`t had a free market since the late 1800`s (which were rather prosperous), so take care not to hastily make a foolish claim.

    @markust123: I am a human you fool - snakes cannot type. Now go away or I s
  72. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 11:27 am
    @HolyGod: You`ve almost perfectly described yourself as a libertarian... just saying.
  73. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 11:32 am
    @patchgrabber: You very consistently make the argument that "is just not possible for your country" without offering any support for this claim. Throughout our debates, I`ve noticed you use thing argument to dismiss most libertarian concepts. Please, explain to me for once what terrible happening will occur if we do these things.

    Without some support for these claims, your dismissals are meaningless. Why can we not have the "good ol` days" back. What terrible and mighty disaster prevents us?
  74. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 11:40 am
    To add to HumanAction`s point, health care costs are still rising in many countries with universal health coverage.
  75. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 11:55 am
    Then there`s also the problem of the very definition of "universal". Some have a system where people aren`t even allowed to spend their own money on the care they recieve, others require that you have insurance that meets a minimum criteria.

    To get to a free market, as HumanAction puts it, the first most obvious step is to force the states to stop enforcing their bans on cross-state insurance. Of course the exchanges were designed to address this problem, but the problem is that they are the very mechanism necessary for the govt to enforce its list of rules which will absolutely keep many competitors out of the markets in all of the states. In short, they will enhance, not dampen, the dominion insurance companies have on the markets. A better way is to defund the states if they continue enforce those bans.
  76. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:11 pm
    "@markust123: I am a human you fool - snakes cannot type."

    @HumanAction, you have the exact unfunny humor as 5Cats. Is that you 5Cats? Is this one of your 9 lives?
  77. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:18 pm

    --Is that you 5Cats? Is this one of your 9 lives?
  78. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:24 pm
    That tinfoil hat cracked me up Cajun247. It`s perfect.
  79. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:25 pm
    @markust

    Glad to hear, because I was actually imagining that YOU were wearing that tin-foil hat.
  80. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:28 pm
    Well duh.
  81. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:36 pm
    @Cajun: Your DoJ study only looks directly at medical bills, and also doesn`t include lost wages due to illness, illness of family members, or medical expenses paid with the credit cards you claim as a major source of debt and potentially leading to bankruptcy. Although the Himmelstein studies may have certain deficiencies, most of which were addressed in the 2009 follow-up, it still provides compelling evidence.

    @HA: The chart in the link you provided shows how much waste is in the American system. Your country spends almost 16% of its GDP on healthcare, whereas Canada only spends 10%. Also, from your link: "A study of international health care spending levels published in the health policy journal Health Affairs in the year 2000 found that the U.S. spends substantially more on health care than any other country in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), a...
  82. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:38 pm
    @markust123: I think you know by my writings that I am not 5Cats. That being said, what was left out of my previous comment was this - "Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time" (Monty Python reference anyone?). As for me twisting your words (thus making me a "snake"), clearly this is your attempt to avoid discussing the very valid points I have made.

    @Cajun247: the first most obvious step is to force the states to stop enforcing their bans on cross-state insurance

    This would be huge (and by extension the repeal perversions of the Commerce Clause). The HMO`s are allowed to maintain their monopolicies (clever eh?) because of governmental sponsership. Removing government "safe-guards" designed to ensure the private interests of these HMOs can only invite competition; thus, costs would inevitably fall and continue to do so until a "perfect" method is found.

  83. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:47 pm
    @patchgrabber: ... I know; that was the point. I was demonstrating the inherent inefficiencies of governmental intervention. Did you really not get that or are you messing with me?

    The point was to show that governmental intervention (in this case, Medicare and Medicaid) strongly correlates to a rapid rise in costs. We cannot compare our two countries as examples of "zero intervention" vs. "complete intervention", as they are both merely shades of intervention. On the other hand, we see clearly that costs remained low and stable before harsh intervention occured.

    If you get a chance, here is an excellent article - with citations - supporting my claims from the Ludwig Von Mises Institute.
  84. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:52 pm
    cont`d: "...and that the use of health care services in the U.S. is below the OECD median by most measures. The authors of the study conclude that the prices paid for health care services are much higher in the U.S. than elsewhere."

    You can`t possibly suggest medicare is the sole reason for the inefficiency of your healthcare. Greedy HMOs driving up costs, increased use of ERs as GP offices, shared costs of uninsured people, etc. All of these show how defunct your system is.

    As to why you can`t go back to the good ol` days or why you can`t adopt our type of system, your HMOs are too ingrained in your economy now. Decades of your completely privatized system make it impossible to simply switch to a model that does not require them. If you`re wanting more numbers, public healthcare costs for Hong Kong is something like 3% of GDP, much less than your 16% or even Canada`s 10%. Also, medicare doesn`t seem to have that much of an influence on how much of your GDP
  85. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:52 pm
    ...healthcare, according to your link.
  86. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm
    and also doesn`t include lost wages due to illness, illness of family members,

    Of course they aren`t included, these are problems associated with BEHAVOIR not cost. Some people take two take two weeks off to deal with an illness. They don`t go see a doctor or ER because it almost certainly wouldn`t expedite recovery. Thus a personal annuity would be most efficient to deal with this problem.

    medical expenses paid with the credit cards you claim as a major source of debt and potentially leading to bankruptcy

    Which again the Fed says amounts to no more 6% of debt, so the dismissal is meaningless.
  87. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:56 pm
    @HA: So perhaps the problem isn`t government intervention, because all countries with universal care pay less as a percent of GDP than your country. Perhaps the problem is greedy HMOs that lobby to keep that monopoly you despise. Surely you can see how privatization and corruption in this situation are caused by the private companies, not because they take their marching orders from government.
  88. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:58 pm
    @cajun: Different studies with different methodologies. Comparing them isn`t entirely practical since they aren`t using the same method. The numbers won`t translate properly.
  89. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 12:59 pm
    Greedy HMOs driving up costs, increased use of ERs as GP offices, shared costs of uninsured people, etc. All of these show how defunct your system is.

    Right because people aren`t spending their own money because they`re not shopping around, which increases costs.
  90. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:01 pm
    Different studies with different methodologies. Comparing them isn`t entirely practical since they aren`t using the same method. The numbers won`t translate properly.

    Thus you render the Himmelstein studies meaningless.

    Surely you can see how privatization and corruption in this situation are caused by the private companies, not because they take their marching orders from government.

    You are conflating "privatization" and "crony capitalism" which aren`t the same thing.
  91. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:02 pm
    @patchgrabber:

    Perhaps the problem is greedy HMOs that lobby to keep that monopoly you despise.

    Who exactly allows this to happen? It is the government. Which is the only entity with the means to create legislation enabling this? The government, of course.

    because all countries with universal care pay less as a percent of GDP than your country

    We`ve done this already, but allow me to show you it from another perspective. The first thing we must acknowledge is that the US system is NOT a private system - the government is heavily entwined. The most representative time in which is was (according to the previous charts) is 1960. In 1960, cost to GDP was 5.1%.

    This bests both of our current systems, wouldn`t you agree? Your argument hinges on your system (more government) being cheaper. I`ve listed two points about countering that.
  92. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:03 pm
    @cajun: But systems with complete government oversight have less cost than your heavily privatized system. Numbers don`t lie. The best model for healthcare in the US would likely be that of Switzerland.
  93. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:07 pm
    @HA: You can`t take numbers from 1960 and compare them to now and claim that the only thing that`s changed has been government intervention. That assumption has so many logical fallacies attached to it that I won`t touch it.
  94. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:08 pm
    @HumanAction "clearly this is your attempt to avoid discussing the very valid points I have made."

    Your response had nothing to do with the specific point I was talking about. I`m not going to waste my time with someone who argues against something the person didn`t say and then expects a response. That is what 5Cats does. That is why I thought you were him.

    Kudos on the Monty Python reference.
  95. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:10 pm
    @cajun: Privatization on grand scale inevitably leads to crony capitalism. Big corporations have lots of money to throw at government officials. The free market system you suggest isn`t feasible if you scale it up.

    I also don`t see how the Himmelstein study is "meaningless." Meaningless to you maybe, but you`re assuming the government research methodology was 100% correct, which, aside from not sounding like something you`d endorse, is not necessarily true.
  96. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:13 pm
    @patchgrabber: That assumption has so many logical fallacies attached to it that I won`t touch it.
    That is incredibly convenient for you. Must be nice to so easily dismiss points without even a rebuttal.

    @markust123: I believe you missed the point in our previous debacle (bailouts) where I corrected the argument and posted statistics about the performance of GM in the last few years.
  97. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:13 pm
    patchgrabber-The Swiss model actually adds to our point, because the Swiss are actually exposed to entire costs of their decisions they are more conscious about the decisions they make regarding their care. Which why 71% of Swiss rejected a motion to implement a single-payer system. This ability to say "no" however, is mitigated by the fact that they have a individual mandate as well. Swiss insurance groups lobbied to expand the minimum required package increasing the cost of health insurance, undermining the Swiss ability to find the best deal.
  98. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:18 pm
    "That is incredibly convenient for you. Must be nice to so easily dismiss points without even a rebuttal."

    Sorry, but you had already lost me with your strawman argument. That`s why I stopped talking with you even when you went back on subject.
  99. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:19 pm
    @cajun: I`m suggesting the Swiss model because it`s the only one I assume would be able to be implemented. But I have a question for you: If the prospect of a free-market healthcare seems so attractive, then why is there not one free market system out there? You`re basing potential savings on theory and conjecture. Such a priori reasoning is not something to gamble a country`s economy and health on.
  100. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:20 pm
    Privatization on grand scale inevitably leads to crony capitalism.

    It reverts back when people realize the detriment such relationships impose.

    I also don`t see how the Himmelstein study is "meaningless." Meaningless to you maybe, but you`re assuming the government research methodology was 100% correct, which, aside from not sounding like something you`d endorse, is not necessarily true.

    NOBODY`s methodology is perfect, but the Himmelstein methodology represents a fundamental misunderstanding of human behavoir. That is why I don`t find it reliable.
  101. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:24 pm
    @HA: Well if you want me to then I will have a go at it. Well first of there`s fallacy of a single cause. Then there`s incomplete comparison, possibly circular cause and consequence, etc. Why should I respond to illogical arguments? I can respond illogically, but that`s petty.
  102. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:24 pm
    then why is there not one free market system out there? You`re basing potential savings on theory and conjecture

    The map you cited earlier makes that a loaded question.
  103. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:24 pm
    @cajun: That`s your perogative.
  104. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:25 pm
    @markust123: Sorry, but you had already lost me with your strawman argument.

    Please, explain. You simply state that I`ve committed this fallacy yet offer no explanation. I am rather curious to see how you`ve come to this.
  105. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:26 pm
    Also as HumanAction pointed out, it is not based on theory and conjecture. We had a free market system that served us well.
  106. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:30 pm
    That`s your perogative.

    ...and? You have yours.
  107. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:33 pm
    @patchgrabber: Well first of there`s fallacy of a single cause. Then there`s incomplete comparison, possibly circular cause and consequence, etc.

    Of course I know you disagree but to many people the 15-20 cent pizza increase is worth taking care of your sick and wounded
    Single Cause, check.

    this 2001 study found to be at least 46.2% of all bankruptcies in those 5 states
    Incomplete comparison, check.

    Seems you`ve confused me for yourself.
  108. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:37 pm
    @HA: Now who`s being wilfully ignorant? I`m also not getting how that one statement was single cause. Papa John`s said they will have to increase pizza prices because of Obamacare, not because of anything else. You may need to recheck what single cause is. The same with incomplete comparison. I provided a link to the study, it`s not my job to read it to you.
  109. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:38 pm
    @HA: And since you didn`t deny those fallacies in your illogical comparison to medicare in the `60s I`ll just assume you see what you did wrong.
  110. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:41 pm
    @patchgrabber: Now who`s being wilfully ignorant?
    Still you, of course.

    Perhaps you should look into logical fallacies, as you commonly reference them, yet obviously lack an understanding of them. This is not my job to educate you about fallacies.

    And since you didn`t deny those fallacies in your illogical comparison to medicare in the `60s I`ll just assume you see what you did wrong.
    Well look now and see who is being willfully ignorant. Here you go - I refute your claim. Now we have both put forth equivalent counter arguments. Should I assume now that you understand how baseless you counter arguments are?
  111. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:49 pm
    Since the focus now is on fallacies, I`d like to point the "2 wrongs make a right" fallacy with the comment about how free markets lead to crony capitalism. So because we`re going to have costly unnecessary govt intervention eventually we must implement it now, even if the current system actually works? Talk about a rush to injure oneself.
  112. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:55 pm
    @HA: If you`re implying that my comment regarding pizza price being worth it for the increased care you`d receive, then you`re establishing a causal relationship where none exists and where I never implied one.

    @cajun: Well since I`ve already shown how total government intervention actually leads to less cost than your current system, it`s not another wrong, it`s just a better way to do things.
  113. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 1:57 pm
    @HA: So you refute that by saying medicare is the reason healthcare costs rose so much that you are committing a logical fallacy? If that`s not what you said then maybe but it sure sounds like you`re blaming the rise of costs on medicare alone.
  114. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:00 pm
    @HumanAction "Please, explain. You simply state that I`ve committed this fallacy yet offer no explanation. I am rather curious to see how you`ve come to this."

    I`ve already offered an explanation in this thread. Are you sure you didn`t check the wrong box? You sound like a woman who can`t let things go.
  115. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:00 pm
    Well since I`ve already shown how total government intervention actually leads to less cost than your current system

    Your idea of "total government intervention" doesn`t add up as I`ve already explained how govt intervention varies between countries with "universal health care". You`re one example of Switzerland shows how govt intervention makes matters worse and is actually undesirable to the Swiss.
  116. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:02 pm
    @patchgrabber: So you refute that by saying medicare is the reason healthcare costs rose
    Whoa there, that is not what I am representing. I am saying that, the biggest single cause of increasing costs is government intervention. I am using Medicare as an example. I have not once stated that government alone is the cause (though I suggest it is the largest single cause). It would be rather foolish to neglect the social causes - such as increased obesity.

    Some more fallacies at a glance:

    If the prospect of a free-market healthcare seems so attractive, then why is there not one free market system out there? Appeal to Common Practice, Appeal to Popularity

    Privatization on grand scale inevitably leads to crony capitalism Confusing Cause and Effect
  117. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:05 pm
    @markust123: I`ve already offered an explanation in this thread. Rather poorly wouldn`t you say? I`ve already shown how it was not a straw man argument.

    You sound like a woman who can`t let things go. That`s not a very liberal thing to say; are you sure you aren`t a sexist? It certainly appears that way.

    Also, aren`t we BOTH continuing the discussion? Does this not also imply that you are behaving "like a woman"?
  118. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:11 pm
    @cajun: Look at HA`s link to healthcare in the US. There is a chart there that shows how every nation with universal care or the Swiss mandated care, regardless of level of government intervention has less % of GDP spent on healthcare than the US.

    @HA: though I suggest it is the largest single cause

    Well you`ve just admitted to fallacy of single cause then.

    My question to cajun is not argumentum ad populum, but nice try. Not so good at these fallacy things? Must be why you commit so many of them. I didn`t say that "It doesn`t work because no one does it." I merely asked why no one is using it if he thinks it works so well. See the difference? One is a declarative statement, the other is just a question.
  119. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:12 pm
    Although I`m sure I`ll get flamed for leaving the discussion now, I have little choice in the matter. Perhaps we can take it up again on the next Obamacare post?
  120. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    @patchgrabber: Well you`ve just admitted to fallacy of single cause then. Your reasoning here is a fallacy in itself (this is fun). When I state it to be the LARGEST single cause, it automatically creates the possibility of other causes. Your understanding of fallacies is infantile and your logic weak.

    How can you possibly demand that your claims of fallacies be respected when you yourself both commit so many, and falsely accuse many others?


  121. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:18 pm
    @patchgrabber: Certainly I will not debate by myself, and therefore cannot possibly "flame" you whilst you are away.

    Perhaps we can take it up again on the next Obamacare post?

    I would expect nothing less.
  122. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:19 pm
    There is a chart there that shows how every nation with universal care or the Swiss mandated care, regardless of level of government intervention has less % of GDP spent on healthcare than the US.

    Just because it may cost a smaller of share GDP does not mean it works as expected, nor are the citizens satisfied with the system.
  123. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:21 pm
    @Cajun247: Let alone the fact that the argument still suggests that the US is more "privatized" or completely "privatized."

    Most honest citizens know this to be false, thus dismissing the original argument on the basis that critical assumptions are false.
  124. Profile photo of Cajun247
    Cajun247 Male 18-29
    10722 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 2:39 pm
    You make glad I`m a libertarian HumanAction, it`s great to see more people begining to oppose such rampantly popular statism.
  125. Profile photo of markust123
    markust123 Male 40-49
    3876 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 4:34 pm
    @HumanAction, I`m throwing in the towel. One time through junior high was enough.
  126. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 4:49 pm
    @markust123: Now I get it... You only managed to make it through Junior High.

    Things make so much more sense now. I apologize (I know it is frowned about to argue with people of... lesser intelligence).

    Let us now see if you truely have, "thrown in the towel" =). This is fun.
  127. Profile photo of Runemang
    Runemang Male 30-39
    2676 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 5:09 pm
    Gas prices go up and down 30 or 40 cents between fill-ups and I`m suppose to run to vow support to the Romney campaign office because Papa Johns threatens to raise prices on a discretionary expenditure by 20 cents? Regardless of political affiliation, I think this just makes Papa Johns look more outwardly stereotypically corporate and less like the kindly "everyday Joe" pizza maker they try to portray in the commercials. Well done. Lemme know how that works out for ya.
  128. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6205 posts
    August 8, 2012 at 8:00 pm
    HumanAction

    "@HolyGod: You`ve almost perfectly described yourself as a libertarian... just saying."

    I like a lot of libertarian policies. I`m a big fan of a lot of what Ron Paul says. However a true libertarian, as I understand it would do away with public schools, publicly funded fire and police, and almost any government oversight or regulation on businesses.

    I don`t trust the free market the way libertarians do. Without government oversight the poor working class in this country would be like China. We`d have 9 yr olds living in Nike factories working 20 hours a day for $1 an hour. And the waste would get dumped in the river out back. That isn`t the country I want to live in.

    I like the EPA. I like public education. I support public healthcare. I don`t quite fit in the libertarian box either.
  129. Profile photo of HumanAction
    HumanAction Male 18-29
    2357 posts
    August 9, 2012 at 6:15 am
    @HolyGod:

    However a true libertarian, as I understand it would do away with public schools, publicly funded fire and police, and almost any government oversight or regulation on businesses.
    Kind of. Libertarians understand that there is a need for some governmental oversight (FDA comes to mind). We just suggest that this reponsibility occur at the state level instead of the federal level.

    In this way, there would be more variation allowing for different methods to be evaluated. The number one issue with federal organizations is that they have a monopoly on power. Once the rules are set, they are in stone, and there is no longer any room for improvement.

    If many states wanted to gather and create an EPA or FDA structure that they all agree to abide by, then that would also be fine.
  130. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2106 posts
    August 10, 2012 at 9:14 am
    Now that I know the Owner of Papa john`s is a Mitt supporter,Gino`s pizza,here I come!!

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