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Date: 08/30/12 04:56 PM

68 Responses to My Illegal Abortion

  1. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 4:50 pm
    Link: My Illegal Abortion - Absolutely chilling. A personal take on current issues.
  2. Profile photo of Squidbush
    Squidbush Male 40-49
    710 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:03 pm
    No clicky.
  3. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:11 pm
    Perfect description, DrProfessor. Thank you for a great article

    I often ask on comment boards if folks think that no Christian woman, no Republican woman has ever had an abortion. That`s what blows my mind the most. That they had one (or two or three), but that they`ve now come to see it as a sin and don`t want anyone else to have the choice that they had. I love that hypocrisy.

    I don`t know what to say. I`m a male. I will NEVER pretend to even dream that I could cast a vote that would limit a woman`s right to this choice. To me, it`s unconscionable to even consider it. And this article eloquently demonstrates one tale of why. And before anyone says, "If you don`t want a baby, don`t have sex" let me ask you how many people you know, male or female, who were virgins when they got married (and were also able to support a child when they first had sex)? I`m going to guess the percentage is awfully low, regardless of the side of the aisle you`re from.
  4. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:23 pm
    What utter crap! 1967? To try and compare then as if it were now is so stupid it`s painful.

    Speaking of stupid: this woman thinks everyone should feel sorry for HER but spares not one second os sorrow for her dead child. Nice!

    ME ME ME! It`s all about ME! = abortion
  5. Profile photo of turdburglar
    turdburglar Male 30-39
    4710 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:48 pm
    That was a interesting. I couldn`t imagine how terrified she must have been to have a doc poking her with a wire like that. Truthfully, she sounds like a waste of flesh, but no one should have to go thru such an ordeal, just to have control of their destiny.
  6. Profile photo of mesovortex
    mesovortex Male 30-39
    458 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:51 pm
    5Cats:
    Yup, you`re a guy. You have no uterus. You cannot bear children. You have no room to talk at all about what women can or can`t do with their body.
  7. Profile photo of faustsshadow
    faustsshadow Male 30-39
    418 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:51 pm
    I am absolutely pro-choice. And pro-taking responsibility for those choices. Whether or not people have sex without thinking of the consequences is not part of the issue, SmagBoy - nor is one`s virginity. (I waited, by the way, and not because I had no other options.)

    Also - hypocrisy is not changing one`s mind. Now, if someone has an abortion while at the same time declaring that abortions are wrong, that is hypocrisy. To look back at past actions and decide that you erred and to change accordingly - well, that`s called maturity.
  8. Profile photo of Jakk88
    Jakk88 Male 18-29
    45 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:52 pm
    @5cats The Holocaust was in 1944, so that`s not relevant now either? Thus, we should have a new holocaust because it might go better than last time and all those people that died are irrelevant now, right?

    Also, I think you missed "For years, I counted the days and months — how old the child would be if the pregnancy had not been terminated. The guilt was overwhelming."

    ME ME ME! It`s all about ME! = Religion
    Making people force their own beliefs on others.
    A secularist society is the way forward because it doesn`t govern others because of religious beliefs.
  9. Profile photo of faustsshadow
    faustsshadow Male 30-39
    418 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:53 pm
    mesovortex,

    By that logic no woman should even be able to tell a guy that he has to pay child support. It`s a bullpoo argument. I am a human so I have a right to object at the murder of other humans.
  10. Profile photo of Jang
    Jang Male 30-39
    1 post
    August 30, 2012 at 5:54 pm
    @5Cats: Try reading the whole article. She does talk about the baby and talks about all the grief it got her. I`ve known two women who had abortions, and none of them didn`t feel guilt about it.

    Here`s an advice: try to tailor your posts to the actual content of what is discussed instead of just spouting the same rhetoric over and over. You`ll look less like an idiot.
  11. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:54 pm
    I will attempt, again, to define this debate.

    Pro-life: mostly believe that it is a human being in it`s own right from the moment of conception.
    Therefore all types of abortion = murder

    Pro-choice: mostly believe that it is not a human in it`s own right until some point closer to full term. Until that point it is only a potential human being.
    Therefore not all types of abortion = murder

    I fall in the second camp, I believe it`s only a human being when it develops its own conscience at around 6 months in. Therefore, up until that point it is not a human and therefore it is not murder.
  12. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:57 pm
    5cats, by my definition her child is not dead, it just never came into existence as its own entity. It is as dead as all the children never to have been conceived. Please understand that your definition of life and death is not universal.
  13. Profile photo of Jakk88
    Jakk88 Male 18-29
    45 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 5:57 pm
    @mesovortex you just reminded me of this Monty Python sketch.
  14. Profile photo of FuriousC
    FuriousC Male 30-39
    38 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 6:05 pm
    I find it ironic the same group of people who fight for the "rights" of the delta smelt minnow have absolutely no problem sucking the brains out of a human infant. I don`t care either way, that`s on your conscious not mine. Just find it a bit odd is all.
  15. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 6:07 pm
    @FuriousC, we don`t consider it a human infant, until roughly 6 months in it doesn`t have anything that could be considered a functioning brain to suck out.
  16. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 6:22 pm
    *damnit, just read my earlier post, consciousness not conscience
  17. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm
    faustsshadow, I agree that changing one`s mind is not hypocrisy. However, taking a choice, exercising it, and then, later, deciding to actively make that choice unavailable for others, *is* hypocrisy. There`s nothing wrong with counseling and explaining regrets to those who are seeking advice. There is nothing wrong with letting one`s view and experience be known. But to deny others a choice you willingly took? That`s hypocrisy. I don`t care how long it`s been, I don`t care your experiences since. To deny another the choice you had and took, is hypocrisy.
  18. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 6:26 pm
    FuriousC, I know of no one who supports bringing any harm to human infants. I think fuzzysheep does a good job of explaining the pro-choice position regarding zygotes and fetuses and the general timelines involved. Bringing harm to a human infant is a crime in every city and state in the country.
  19. Profile photo of thelonious
    thelonious Male 40-49
    3278 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 8:17 pm
    So now we are supposed to have a plan for all the outliers too? I don`t think it`s fiscally feasible.
  20. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2105 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 8:28 pm
    We must stop the republican/Nazi machine.
  21. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 8:48 pm
    try to tailor your posts to the actual content of what is discussed... You`ll look less like an idiot.
    @Jang: No, I`ll still look like an idiot! Welcome to IAB!

    @mesovortex: Women have NO right to tell a man what to do! Black people have NO right to tell white people what to do! (/sarc, get it?)
    @faustsshadow was bang-on accurate in his reply!

    @Jakk88: "The guilt I felt" = ME ME ME! She didn`t alter her beliefs, she still thinks it`s perfectly OK to kill babies! HOW is that feeling sorry for anyone other than herself?
    1967 vs 2012: Contaception is CHEAP and available EVERYWHERE! Abortion is LEGAL. Also: single motherhood is SUPPORTED by virtually everyone, especially the Gov`t.

    THAT is why this article is idiotic.

    @fuzzysheep: conception, seperate DNA and birth. Those are the only 3 NON-arbitrary stages of developement. "6 months" is a myth, abortions are carried out up to the day of delivery (9 months)
  22. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 8:56 pm
    However, taking a choice, exercising it, and then, later, deciding to actively make that choice unavailable for others, *is* hypocrisy.
    @SmagBoy: When I was 19 I drove my car while drunk.
    I made that mistake, BUT I don`t go around demanding that others ALSO can drive while drunk, do i? THAT is still hypocricy in your books?
    LEGALIZE DRUNK DRIVING! Get your laws off my Oldsmobile!

    FuriousC, I know of no one who supports bringing any harm to human infants.
    Ah! They`re not "human" right? They are "untermenchen"! Sub-humans! Animals! Blobs of meat! They don`t deserve equal rights to the Master Race!
    Perhaps now @Jakk88 will see the holocaust connection...
  23. Profile photo of An-egg
    An-egg Male 30-39
    885 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 9:18 pm
    and here`s a legal abortion
  24. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 9:42 pm
    @5cats "6 months is a myth" - no, in the UK, it`s the law, only in exceptional cases, ie. rape, serious danger to the mother, seriously damaged foestus etc. will there be an abortion after this point. There are exceptions but focusing on them is unhelpful.

    It doesn`t make sense to me to call a bundle of cells a human being and an 8 month old foetus clearly is one. Why chose either extreme? Let`s sit down and sensibly work out at what point this thing becomes a human in it`s own right. I say when the brain comes together to the point where it starts to function ie. 6 months in or so.
  25. Profile photo of An-egg
    An-egg Male 30-39
    885 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:03 pm
    @fuzzysheep look at my post.
    Abortions in the US allow viable kids to be "aborted" some of them fail to die.
  26. Profile photo of Zeegrr60
    Zeegrr60 Male 40-49
    2105 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:08 pm
    Legal? No, a right. I am a man,so I support womens right to decide. I also carry a gun.Try to take THAT right.They are NOT rights if they can be taken away.
  27. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:26 pm
    @An-egg, sorry, I missed the part where I was arguing for late term abortions, I made it very clear that I think aborting past 6 months is out of order as from that point on it is a human being in its own right. I fail to see how the story of a 7 month old baby being aborted and living goes against what I`m saying.

    A minority of late term abortions does not justify making all abortions illegal, just have tighter controls on late term abortions
  28. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:28 pm
    @fuzzysheep: That`s your nation, however "with exceptions" tells it ALL!
    Canada = NO LAW at all! None! Any abortion, for any `reason` is paid for by the gov`t.
    USA = NO restriction, some abortions paid for by Gov`t, others not, but 9 month abortion is LEGAL everywhere!

    @An_Egg: Abortion survivours have no rigths either, nice find! Even if you are "Born Alive" thay can legally leave you to die.
    How does THAT constitute aborting a "fetus"? It`s my body, even if it`s dieing in the next room?
  29. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:35 pm
    @5cats, no "with exception" leaves wiggle room for situations where the foetus has a very low survival chance and could cause serious damage to the mother. If the law didn`t have any exceptions young mothers could be legally obliged to die giving birth to a baby with a zero percent survival rate and that would be absurd.

    Now I`ll admit, I don`t know the full set up in America but if what you say is true then the law needs changing. Don`t make abortions illegal but don`t allow babies to be aborted past 24 weeks except for cases like above. Does that make sense to you or do you want all abortions banning full stop?
  30. Profile photo of fuzzysheep
    fuzzysheep Male 18-29
    187 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 10:38 pm
    Just wondering An-egg and 5cats, do you believe you should be legally able to abort a 20 week old foetus? Or do you believe abortion = murder no matter when?
  31. Profile photo of tatripp
    tatripp Male 18-29
    1196 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 11:02 pm
    The chilling thing is that she doesn`t regret the abortion. She had her child murdered because she made a mistake and didn`t want to change her life to make up for the mistake.
  32. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 11:19 pm
    "I shudder to think it could be illegal again"


    No. Stop. Trying to stir up voters by scaring them with an untrue scenario.

    This happens too much. I really have only minimal sympathies for something that happened to somebody in 1967. It`s like they wished we still lived back then so these stories were still relevant.
  33. Profile photo of Andrew155
    Andrew155 Male 18-29
    2579 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 11:28 pm
    Fuzzysheep, I hope you realize that 20 weeks is kind of a lot. You`re talking 5 months of a fetus growing inside of you. A fetus can actually viable as early as 24 weeks (as per Roe v. Wade).

    Really though, if you`re aborting at 20 weeks that`s just creepy. I`m not even pro-life, but if you have the heart to abort at 20 weeks, for no dramatic reason, you are creepy.
  34. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4345 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 11:51 pm
    people who legitimize abortion saying it`s not a life untill so and so age make me sick. Abortion is killing a child right from conception, it`s taking away a humans right to life.Sure, in very exceptional cases, eg legitimate rape, serious child abnormality or serious danger to a mothers life, abortion should be an option. There is little stigma involved in pre marriage parents these days. Babies have no trouble finding adoptive parents. Legalise abortion in the USA has made people lazy, it`s now used as a preventative instead of using contraception or simply not having sex. ffs, it`s not like there arn`t a multitude of other ways to have sex with out getting pregnant. 52% of black american pregnancys end in abortion. I dont beleive in any sort of religion, but my concience could never live with taking the life of a defenceless unborn child. I`m anto abortion all the way. Whats wrong with that article was not the abortion, but that she got pregnant in the first place,
  35. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4345 posts
    August 30, 2012 at 11:58 pm
    cont....and that her family was so awful that she felt she could not look to them for support. there is something seriously wrong with a society that allows it`s woman to be put in such positions. You lot (americans, and probably everyone come to think of it) should make teens watch abortion videos and look at pictures of aborted babies, and see the number of abortions plummet. Just as people buy meat in a supermarket all freshly packaged and think nothing of how it got there or it had to die to get there, abortion is glossed over as a proceedure and there is no thought of the actual mechanics of what happens.eg a babies limbs being sucked off it`s body while it is fully concious, or burned alive with a saline solution, or even induced and then murdered. No matter which way you look at it, it`s a vile process that ends in the death of a human being.
  36. Profile photo of emmettyville
    emmettyville Female 40-49
    4345 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 12:04 am
    another thing, after reading all the comments....men SHOULD have a say in this, the babies that are conceived are half theirs after all. I cant imagine how this would affect a male, having no choice or say in whether or not his child was aborted.
  37. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 1:35 am
    @emmettyville

    I hate how this phrase `legitimate rape` has entered every day usage.

    We generally don`t put the word `legitimate` in front of other crimes - like when was the last time you heard someone talk about legitimate shop-lifting, or legitimate arson?
  38. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 1:44 am
    also @ emmettyville

    "abortion is glossed over as a proceedure and there is no thought of the actual mechanics of what happens.eg a babies limbs being sucked off it`s body while it is fully concious"

    Please could you provide some independent medical evidence that fetuses are `fully concious `?

    not pro-life propoganda material... just some solid, reliable, independent medical evidence that proves that a fetus is fully conscious.




  39. Profile photo of nubblins
    nubblins Female 18-29
    1743 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 4:33 am
    I woke up today and abortion is still legal.

    Have a nice day!
  40. Profile photo of champbronc4
    champbronc4 Male 18-29
    40 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 5:15 am
    I;m confused.. abortion is legal
  41. Profile photo of jimbobsthebe
    jimbobsthebe Male 18-29
    639 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 5:20 am
    How about a fair compromise guys? If you don`t agree with abortions then simply don`t have them.

    Those that don`t have a problem, they can choose whether or not to.

    Sound fair?
  42. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 5:34 am
    To be fair, she aimed a lot of her anger at men, and that stuck in my craw a little. We`re not all going to run at the first sign of danger.

    @5cats--What`s so incomparable between now and 1967?

    Is an abortion any less emotional, or traumatizing? Do people have an easier time dealing with an unplanned pregnancy?

    If you`re suggesting that our methods have improved beyond the wire, are you promoting back-alley abortions and a victorian compromise (i.e. we know you`re doing it, and we`ll let it happen as long as we don`t hear about it)?

    To everyone saying "abortions are legal," you clearly didn`t read. The so-named "illegal abortion" happened in 1967, before Roe v. Wade.
  43. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 5:39 am
    @jimbobsthebe--The reason a compromise can`t exist is because those with the pro-life stance believe that these are humans being murdered. I don`t agree with them, but I realize that they`re not going to just agree to let it happen, when they believe that these developing fetuses are dying babies.
  44. Profile photo of Metalcraze
    Metalcraze Male 18-29
    101 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:00 am
    That story happened in 1967.
    Libetard fail.
  45. Profile photo of AvatarJohn
    AvatarJohn Male 30-39
    1059 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:18 am
    So sorry her "experience" with murdering a child wasn`t so clean, white, and sterile. It`s so much nicer now that we can have a "doctor" perform the gruesome task of slicing up the baby in a safe, clinical setting and not have to think about it.

    She should have bled to death -- that would have been justice.
  46. Profile photo of madduck
    madduck Female 50-59
    7421 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:27 am
    Amazing- those of you who condemn women like this and claim to be so pro-life yet have not one scrap of sense or empathy in your entire bodies. It must be the glow of self righteousness that fuals you. How sad is is mis-placed. If you object to abortion then I strongly suggest you have a reasonable argument, and show that you are capable of caring about suffering of both mother and child. So many love to scream at the incubator so wantonly chopping up the perfect little human inside- without taking time to realise that the situaion is hard for all concerned- and that no matter what stance you take there will be intense suffering....
  47. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:30 am



    Or do the guns now make it bad?
  48. Profile photo of cheeseb
    cheeseb Male 30-39
    254 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:48 am
    I`m an advocate for a woman to have choice, but not on this woman`s testimony. There are more valid reasons than irresponsibility for making abortion legal and safe.
    Something bad did happen to this lady. She shouldn`t be persecuted for it. But this story shouldn`t be fodder for the pro-choice movement. Those who are pro-life have their reasons, some of them crazy, ridiculous, and equally irresponsible, that I do not agree with. But I do agree with them on one stance: abortion shouldn`t be used simply as a means to escape unwanted consequences.
  49. Profile photo of jkfld
    jkfld Male 30-39
    138 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 6:51 am
    Required reading for those looking for insight into the minds of anti-choice hypocrites: The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion.
  50. Profile photo of Bremir
    Bremir Male 18-29
    392 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 7:32 am
    AvatarJohn - The same way you should be hit by a bus for judging someone else?

    Now that would be justice. One less piece of **** like you on the planet.
  51. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 7:35 am
    @emmetyville: Your argument is question-begging. You say that it is human life from conception as if that`s axiomatic. You then say that it has a "right to life." I`ve said this before in a similar argument with HG, but it deserves repeating.
    You presuppose that the foetus has intrinsic value and thus has a right to life, basically:
    (1) The foetus is identical with the being who is later rational and self-conscious.
    (2) The being who is later rational and self-conscious is, at that later time, intrinsically valuable.
    (3) If a thing is intrinsically valuable, then it is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists.
    (4) So, the being who is later rational and self-conscious is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists. (from (2) and (3))
    (5) Therefore, the foetus is intrinsically valuable from the moment that it exists. (from (1) and (4))
  52. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 7:41 am
    Aside from (3) being debatable, can a thing be intrinsically valuable and not have a right to life? It is morally wrong, so most of us think, to inflict wanton pain on sentient creatures like dogs, cats, chickens, and so on. If I come across a wild dog, for example, then it would be wrong for me to torture that dog for hours on end. It would be wrong even if nobody cared about the dog or even knew it existed. If so, then dogs deserve at least some level of value and respect independently of what anyone thinks about them. Dogs must therefore be intrinsically valuable; and this despite the fact that dogs do not have a right to life.

    So something can be intrinsically valuable and not have a right to life, but my question is this: Why can a thing not come to be at one time and yet become intrinsically valuable to a particular degree at another time? Why can a thing not acquire its intrinsic value after it begins to exist?
  53. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 7:46 am
    @listypoos: Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. So 6-7 months minimum.
  54. Profile photo of drawman61
    drawman61 Male 50-59
    7707 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 8:50 am
    Or you could just practice safe sex and stop blaming the world for your dilemma.
  55. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 9:06 am
    Mcgovern:

  56. Profile photo of QueenZira
    QueenZira Female 18-29
    2228 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 9:10 am
    But more importantly-
  57. Profile photo of HolyGod
    HolyGod Male 30-39
    6183 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 9:33 am
    QueenZira

    I don`t understand the point. Nobody is telling you what you can and can`t do with your Vagina. But some do think you shouldn`t be able to arbitrarily kill the life inside of you.

    I`m pro choice up to conception. You have 100s of choices to keep from getting pregnant. Once you have made choices that lead to the pregnancy, I don`t personally think that life should lose its life for your poor choices.
  58. Profile photo of SmagBoy1
    SmagBoy1 Male 40-49
    4432 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 10:11 am
    Actually, for those saying that abortion is legal, please note that 31 of 50 states have passed laws limiting access and funding to Planned Parenthood, which, along with abortions, provided contraception and women`s health, and access to "legal" abortion. 31 of 50. In the last two years since the Tea Party swept in. With some states have no clinics and one state with only one single clinic--for the entire state--that will perform them. So, "legal"? Perhaps. Feasible and accessible? Less and less and less so. Essentially "no". So, let`s not act like it is.

    Source 1

    Source 2

    Etc.
  59. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 10:42 am
    @QueenZira

  60. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 10:56 am
    @McG: I don`t think Condescending Wonka was the right choice for that.
  61. Profile photo of McGovern1981
    McGovern1981 Male 30-39
    14273 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 10:56 am
    The far left summarized....


    Not that the far right is any beter.
  62. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 11:02 am
    The far right summarized:

  63. Profile photo of Listypoos
    Listypoos Male 40-49
    3069 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 11:26 am
    @patchgrabber "@listypoos: Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. So 6-7 months minimum.""

    I wasn`t saying I didn`t know... I was saying she should provide some evidence that they are fully conscious if she`s going to make such a bold statement that they are with no proof whatsoever.

    Seeing as even our best doctors and scientists aren`t sure when consciousness starts... or even if it is post or pre-birth.... I just doubted she`d be able to find anything that wasn`t just pro-life propaganda to back up her statement.
  64. Profile photo of patchgrabber
    patchgrabber Male 30-39
    5812 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 12:30 pm
    @listypoos: Oh, I see, nevermind then. I`d still like to hear a pro-lifer respond to my earlier question, too.
  65. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 1:37 pm
    @fuzzysheep: I just think that "26 weeks" is an arbitrary number, any abortion after the first few cell divisions kills a baby, but isn`t neccessarily "murder".

    @5cats--What`s so incomparable between now and 1967?
    @DrProfessor: Um, abortions are not only legal now, the government PAYS FOR THEM? Single mothers are fully supported by 90% of society? It`s `night and day` different, was that a trick question?

    We cannot go back to the "no abortion ever" days as that would be bad too! It`s a difficult issue with no clear solutions.
    However: pretending it`s NOT killing a baby is just... vile. Admit what it is! Tell the truth!
  66. Profile photo of 5Cats
    5Cats Male 50-59
    31759 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 1:51 pm
    @SmagBoy: Seriously? Not one hospital, clinic or doctor in the USA, outside of Planned Parenthood, will perform an abortion? Seriously?

    Why can a thing not acquire its intrinsic value after it begins to exist?
    @patchy: That question? It`s kinda difficult to figure out what you`re asking there, eh?

    Once it has it`s own DNA, seperate from the mother = it`s a baby IMO. That`s after about 4 cell divisions, idk how many hours or days it takes.
    So yes, at the 8 cell stage it really is "part of the mother`s body" and not a baby at all. After that it`s a seperate human being.

    Soon enough we`ll have "artificial wombs" and such! It won`t end abortions but ought to cut down on them.
  67. Profile photo of DrProfessor
    DrProfessor Male 18-29
    3894 posts
    August 31, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    @5cats-That`s the point. She`s arguing against the pro-life movement by illustrating the kind of situations that arose from abortion being illegal. When you said "things are different now" I assumed that you meant "things are different now, if it were made illegal nowadays things like that would never happen."
  68. Profile photo of feverdream
    feverdream Female 18-29
    106 posts
    September 1, 2012 at 1:32 am
    in the early 80s my aunt had an abortion. they didnt anesthetize or sedate her whatsoever. she said it felt like the dr was using a serated spoon, the kind you use for grapefruits. the dr was later called barbaric by southern groups. i cannot imagine this happening this day and age.

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